Crunching the Numbers (ESO+ vs. WoW)

ShedsHisTail

Linaleah wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Erm...

I do feel myself a bit riped-off with Morrowind, but I have to say - you're not being fair here.

You're not being fair, because a) graphics; b) ESO is fully voiced. And b) is huge, guys, - full professional VO actually costs s**t-ton. As is a). When it comes to production, "1 square metre" of ESO probably costs ~"5 square metres" of WoW, so to speak.

I just ran the numbers, aesthetics are a value judgement.
You're probably right as far as dev costs go, but that's not something I could verify or properly account for.

And as far as game play goes, looking good is sort of a foregone conclusion these days. And, again, WoW was pretty top of the line in it's day.

in terms of looks, it was not - it was actualy criticized for graphically being behind times compared to its contemporaries (but it could run on a potato, so there's that?). also - hyjal and BT wasn't accessible till patch 2.1 - months after release. and there is a matter of adjusting for inflation and the fact that ESO is subscription optional (moreover if you look at WoW expansions nowadays, they are smaller then BC, and yet - cost more)

Source I'm using doesn't show Hyjal as patch 2.1 and Black Temple isn't on my list. If you've a better source, please let me know and I'll update it.

And, I'm not adjusting for inflation.

You seem to think I'm intending to be critical here, I'm not. My personal opinion is the ESO+ is fine, I've no complaints and have argued at length in it's defense. This is simply a comparison of content to numbers. I used a constant subscriber to ESO+ as a comparison because it's the closest comparison I could get to WoW's subscription required model. Yes, an ESO+ subscriber could get a better value by not subbing periodically, but that's not the purpose of this comparison.

Hyjal was technically in game, but due to Kaelthas being required to acess it and the fight was overtuned and buggy (and that's not to mention Lady Vashj having her own set of issues) no one stepped foot into Hyjal until BT patch, as Kael and Vashj kills were required for attunement. mentioning BT was my bad though, for some reason I misread TK as BT. incidentally Ghruul and Magtheridon are one boss raid with some minor trash. on a flip side, there are almost no world bosses to speak of in WoW at that time. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/646517-when-was-the-hyjal-raid-open

That all seems valid, I'll make the adjustment.
Yeah, i remember when WoW launched there were zero world bosses, the only reason I even included them on the list was because the old patch notes I was looking at made the first two sound like a big deal. So, I'm gonna remove Hyjal and merge Ghruul/Mag.

interesting thing about Vanilla is that at launch it didn't have enough quests to hit max level, so grinding was basically required. actual grinding, like what people in ESO do by choice - dolmens, Skyreach. in Vanilla - you HAD to grind as you had no other options, slower or otherwise. now my memory may not be 100% but I would say.. there is overall more quest content in ESO comparably then there was in WoW.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with this. At launch ESO had fewer zones, but the zones they had were certainly more complete. Wow had a nasty tendency to feel really empty from about levels 55-60. It doesn't warrant any changes to the list, but it's worth noting, especially considering how much people are complaining about the lack of "things to do"in Vvardenfell.

Ghost-Shot

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

dainswulf wrote: »

It's easier to make content for a game like WoW that is dated, and even when it was new has always looked like garbage.

I think things like the One Tamriel patch are more important features to attracting and keeping new players, as opposed to other MMO's that put in a shortcut of "Start a character at level 90! Skip all our years of previous content!".

WoW actually added an zone scaling mechanic before ESO, though it doesn't apply to the entire game. In Legion you quest through the leveling zones in whatever order you want and they all scale to 110 when you cap.

The goal of this comparison was to gauge what additions occurred in each game up to and including the first expansion release. While WoW may have developed zone scaling before ESO did chronologically, it did not occur before the release of TBC and thus was not on the list.

Sorry I was responding to that guy specifically, not saying it should be added.

Ruckly

Burning Crusade was the best expansion ever released for an MMO. Also at a time when the MMO market wasn't so crowded viz. MMOs weren't undercutting each other. Not a fair comparison.

GeneralMcFist

While for the sake of argument, I understand including both games' cost of subscribing, however with ESO not requiring a subscription fee in order to play, it is the better MMO, cost-wise

AhPook_Is_Here

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Okay, I keep seeing this comparison being made between the Morrowind Chapter and World of Warcraft's first Expansion, Burning Crusade. Obviously Morrowind is much smaller, but what keeps getting neglected in these discussions is all the things we've gotten between ESOs launch and Morrowind. So what I've done below, through some research, is tally up a list of what I consider significant changes/additions to both games between the release of the Vanilla Game an including the features of the first Xpac/Chapter. Then I've totalled up the cost for a subscriber to each game.

I'm presenting these as simply a list of features and a set of numbers. There is no judgment attached from me as value is relative to the purchaser. Yes, I'm aware that not all of these features are congruous between games, but that too is a value judgement and up to the observer. I simply want to attempt to objectively portray what we've gotten for our money.

Also, I'm including only features -added- to the game. This does not include features available at release, nor does it include the content later patched into WoW's burning Crusade expansion (as we've yet to see what this Chapter has in store and so cannot compare)

So, without further ado.


WORLD OF WARCRAFT + BURNING CRUSADE EXPANSION
Zones:
11 new zones

Dungeons:
16 New 5- Man Dungeons
14 New Heroic 5- Man Dungeons

Raids:
2 New 10-Man Raid (Kara, AQ10)
3 New 25-Man Raids (Gruul’s/Mag’s, SSC, TK)
3 New 40-man Raids (BWL, AQ40, Nax)

World Bosses:
10 World Bosses

PVP:
4 Battle Grounds
Arena System w/ 3 Maps
Open World PvP Objectives

Other:
2 New Races
Increased Level Cap (60-70)
1 New Profession (Jewel Crafting)

Total Cost after initial purchase:
$429.73 (26 Months sub + $39.99 Xpac)




ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE + MORROWIND CHAPTER
Zones:
5-6 Zones (Vvardenfell, Gold Coast, Hews Bane, Wrothgar, Upper/Lower Crag)

Dungeons:
4 New Public Dungeons
8 “New” Normal Dungeons (reworked unique Vets)
14 “New” Veteran Dungeons (reworked existing Normals)
4 New Normal Dungeons (CoS, RoM, WGT, ICS)
6 New Veteran Dungeons (CoS, RoM, WGT, ICS, CoH, CoA)
Maelstrom Arena

Raids:
5 New Trials (MoL, Sanctum, Hel Ra, Aether, HoF)
3 New Modes for existing Trails (Hel Ra, Aether, Sanctum)
Dragonstar Arena

World Bosses:
10 World bosses

PVP:
5 Battle Grounds/PvP Zones
Dueling

Other:
1 New Class
2 New factions/skill lines (DB, TG)
Player Housing
One Tamriel
2 Crafting Expansions (Poison Making, Furniture)
Craft Bags
Justice System
Champion System

Total Cost after initial Purchase for ESO+ Subscribers:
$609.61 (38 months sub + $39.99 Xpac.


There you go, let me know if there's anything I missed.
Commence arguing.

10 year inflation adjustment.

Cpt_Teemo

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

And as far as game play goes, looking good is sort of a foregone conclusion these days. And, again, WoW was pretty top of the line in it's day.

No, looking good isn't "a foregone conclusion". Check Warcraft movie expenses

The movie had game play?
Maybe I should see it after all.

Yeah you get to become baby thrall and yell at people

ShedsHisTail

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Okay, I keep seeing this comparison being made between the Morrowind Chapter and World of Warcraft's first Expansion, Burning Crusade. Obviously Morrowind is much smaller, but what keeps getting neglected in these discussions is all the things we've gotten between ESOs launch and Morrowind. So what I've done below, through some research, is tally up a list of what I consider significant changes/additions to both games between the release of the Vanilla Game an including the features of the first Xpac/Chapter. Then I've totalled up the cost for a subscriber to each game.

I'm presenting these as simply a list of features and a set of numbers. There is no judgment attached from me as value is relative to the purchaser. Yes, I'm aware that not all of these features are congruous between games, but that too is a value judgement and up to the observer. I simply want to attempt to objectively portray what we've gotten for our money.

Also, I'm including only features -added- to the game. This does not include features available at release, nor does it include the content later patched into WoW's burning Crusade expansion (as we've yet to see what this Chapter has in store and so cannot compare)

So, without further ado.


WORLD OF WARCRAFT + BURNING CRUSADE EXPANSION
Zones:
11 new zones

Dungeons:
16 New 5- Man Dungeons
14 New Heroic 5- Man Dungeons

Raids:
2 New 10-Man Raid (Kara, AQ10)
3 New 25-Man Raids (Gruul’s/Mag’s, SSC, TK)
3 New 40-man Raids (BWL, AQ40, Nax)

World Bosses:
10 World Bosses

PVP:
4 Battle Grounds
Arena System w/ 3 Maps
Open World PvP Objectives

Other:
2 New Races
Increased Level Cap (60-70)
1 New Profession (Jewel Crafting)

Total Cost after initial purchase:
$429.73 (26 Months sub + $39.99 Xpac)




ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE + MORROWIND CHAPTER
Zones:
5-6 Zones (Vvardenfell, Gold Coast, Hews Bane, Wrothgar, Upper/Lower Crag)

Dungeons:
4 New Public Dungeons
8 “New” Normal Dungeons (reworked unique Vets)
14 “New” Veteran Dungeons (reworked existing Normals)
4 New Normal Dungeons (CoS, RoM, WGT, ICS)
6 New Veteran Dungeons (CoS, RoM, WGT, ICS, CoH, CoA)
Maelstrom Arena

Raids:
5 New Trials (MoL, Sanctum, Hel Ra, Aether, HoF)
3 New Modes for existing Trails (Hel Ra, Aether, Sanctum)
Dragonstar Arena

World Bosses:
10 World bosses

PVP:
5 Battle Grounds/PvP Zones
Dueling

Other:
1 New Class
2 New factions/skill lines (DB, TG)
Player Housing
One Tamriel
2 Crafting Expansions (Poison Making, Furniture)
Craft Bags
Justice System
Champion System

Total Cost after initial Purchase for ESO+ Subscribers:
$609.61 (38 months sub + $39.99 Xpac.


There you go, let me know if there's anything I missed.
Commence arguing.

10 year inflation adjustment.

... $506.79?

http://www.in2013dollars.com/2007-dollars-in-2017?amount=429.73

flizomica

I'd also like to add that ESO has no p2w level boosts etc that WoW does have, which I'm sure is a big portion of their revenue. As a result ESO's only revenue is from cosmetics/DLC so they need to charge more.

ShedsHisTail

flizomica wrote: »

I'd also like to add that ESO has no p2w level boosts etc that WoW does have, which I'm sure is a big portion of their revenue. As a result ESO's only revenue is from cosmetics/DLC so they need to charge more.

Nor did WoW during the time frame in question.

staracino_ESO

There were no level jumps in wow until the 3rd or 4th expansion; or maybe even later.

Qyrk

Meh. Couldn't care less. Besides morrowind is a chapter which should not be treated as an expansion, therefore cannot be compared. I played vanilla wow until pandaria and also have been with eso. Eso+ is much more worth it for me than being a regular subscriber in wow (up to TBC).

Doesnt matter anyways as clearly you're comparing orangers and Apple's in dev-speak.

stevenbennett_ESO

I'll chime in here and point out that aside from the two new races, I thought BC was a mediocre at best expansion. The new zones were big, but mostly a boring, tedious, slogfest with very little story or plot. I was never much a fan of WoW raiding, or even their dungeons -- they were simply excuses to grind for incrementally better gear and again, were generally boring and tedious. So BC really didn't do much for me -- the two new races and starting zones were the only really good part of it. (WotLK and Cataclysm were both significantly more interesting to me...)

Wrothgar, alone, had more in terms of story, plot, and interesting gameplay than the entire BC expansion combined. IMHO.

geonsocal

Xylphan

You are erroneously including subscription price in the comparison. You do not need a subscription to play this game. If you outright buy the DLC with crowns and then the expansion, you have access to whole game without paying anything more (and quite a few people do just that).

That is far cheaper than WoW where you have to pay even to just play the game. EVERYONE PAYS for WoW. That's a big constant income stream. In ESO there's a much smaller base of subscribers supplemented by intermittent crown store purchases. Needless to say, the income stream is not as large and has a tendency to be "bursty" instead of constant.

Worse, people who play the game but don't spend money on crowns or a sub are a net negative on the income stream. Data centers aren't free, and the initial purchase price of the game doesn't really go very far to cover costs. The players who pay nothing are being subsidized by the ones who do. And while that's good for expanding the game community and potentially bringing in more sales, there is absolutely no guarantee that it does. We don't see the books so we don't know what the operating margin is for ESO, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out it's going to be smaller than WoW's on a percentage basis.

ShedsHisTail

It was not an error, it was deliberate.

ShedsHisTail

Made a notation of the $570.00 worth of Crowns included with 38 month subscription.

hmsdragonfly

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

There you go, let me know if there's anything I missed.
Commence arguing.

Quests that actually have stories behind them.

Nemesis7884

ZirconJunkie wrote: »

Charging more and more for less and less content is a very disappointing trend in the gaming industry.

Morrowind content IS good. But not $40 good. For the amount of content we got it should be priced more in the $15-$20 range.

it certainly is also greed since the gaming industry is one of the biggest growing and now bigger than the movie industry...at the same time aaa games do become more and more and more expensive as well - i think it will end in the same problem the movie industry has - too big and no longer sustainable and in need of a resett with smaller indi project or innovative thinking...we're already seeing the start of it

Funkopotamus

Eh TBH myself and a large portion of my guild have started playing Neverwinter again due to this last ZOS debacle!! I mean at least NW has an ungodly TON of End Game Content. And it actually works and we can finish it without DCing 15 times while trying to complete it.


We have tried to give ZOS a lot of time to get things going in the right direction, but this last "Update" is just abysmal. The fact that they added more broken stuff without at least fixing the content that has been broken for over a year. "VMOL" I mean COME ON..

Yeah Im out for a while. Might be back, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Sadly I was here trying to defend ESO to a lot of people that were jumping ship just from the patch notes. I said "Nah they will get things fixed with this update" and "Oh it wont be as bad as King Richard, Deltia, and Alcast make it out to be..

Well color me fooled..

snakester320

Xylphan wrote: »

You are erroneously including subscription price in the comparison. You do not need a subscription to play this game. If you outright buy the DLC with crowns and then the expansion, you have access to whole game without paying anything more (and quite a few people do just that).

That is far cheaper than WoW where you have to pay even to just play the game. EVERYONE PAYS for WoW. That's a big constant income stream. In ESO there's a much smaller base of subscribers supplemented by intermittent crown store purchases. Needless to say, the income stream is not as large and has a tendency to be "bursty" instead of constant.

Worse, people who play the game but don't spend money on crowns or a sub are a net negative on the income stream. Data centers aren't free, and the initial purchase price of the game doesn't really go very far to cover costs. The players who pay nothing are being subsidized by the ones who do. And while that's good for expanding the game community and potentially bringing in more sales, there is absolutely no guarantee that it does. We don't see the books so we don't know what the operating margin is for ESO, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out it's going to be smaller than WoW's on a percentage basis.

And yet if you do the maths of what ppl get and spend a sub is usually cheaper and better value over all ... eso locks content eg island housing ,furniture ,mounts , costumes etc behind a pay wall .. the content that slowly trickles in and is usually very small with eso is testament to lack of development funding .. yes while we are not forced to pay a sub or buy said items we are still incouraged to do so and most will spend more over a year on costumes scam crates furniture and so on..
the island housing is $200aud give or take not on sale I pay $140 for whole year for a sub to another mmo .
The simple fact is that sub games usually are cheaper and get better content .. where as game like eso with so much stuff locked behind paywalls it's easy to forget that buy scam crates every quarter buy a few costumes and you have already spent more money than you would had a compulsory sub with most things included in it!!
Show me constant decent content with eso and I will gladly pay for it but is so far and few and small that it is hardly worth it so why would I help there development costs when I throw said money at them and get crappy small dlc for my money??
Take morrowind so many are saying it's not what you would call an expansion content wise ...final fantasy is about to drop there expansion on the 16th of June early access and it far exceeds the content than morrowind for the same price go figure!!
I brought the collectors edition expansion cost me $90 aud so that's $140 with 3 month content updates.. yes there's things in a cash shop but there direct purchase not gamble ..
WOW has prob gone pay to win theses days which is bad but they have made huge $$$$ the likes of no mmo will ever again and still managed to push decent content out regularly for your sub based game ..how many years has it been going now take there crappy dated graphics and so on I can assure you ESO will never beat there figures or years in the market ..

snakester320

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Eh TBH myself and a large portion of my guild have started playing Neverwinter again due to this last ZOS debacle!! I mean at least NW has an ungodly TON of End Game Content. And it actually works and we can finish it without DCing 15 times while trying to complete it.


We have tried to give ZOS a lot of time to get things going in the right direction, but this last "Update" is just abysmal. The fact that they added more broken stuff without at least fixing the content that has been broken for over a year. "VMOL" I mean COME ON..

Yeah Im out for a while. Might be back, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Sadly I was here trying to defend ESO to a lot of people that were jumping ship just from the patch notes. I said "Nah they will get things fixed with this update" and "Oh it wont be as bad as King Richard, Deltia, and Alcast make it out to be..

Well color me fooled..

This is what seems to be the norm for ESO and ZOS they just can't seem to fix the issues first before pouring new buged content into the mix ..
I can't put my finger on the issue is it they don't give a Sh.t and just want morons to throw money at them ? ( logic would state this is stupid to *** off customers )
Do they get told customers a getting bored make new content charge for it hurry up ?
Is it we don't charge a sub so play it if you want bugs and bullsh.t or don't ?
Normally you would get your game humming bugs fixed very little issues if something arises you pull it down fix it put it back up quick smart ...
Not drag your feed for months and then dump buggy crap on top of the Sh.t you didn't fix from last dlc etc!

Faulgor

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

57,000 Crowns to spend as you please.

Crowns didn't even exist for all of the 38 months you calculate. The first year was P2P only, so that's about 18,000 Crowns less.

But as others have said, you didn't even need a sub from then on to play. So you should really just include the first year of subscription and the cost of any subsequent DLC. IC, Orsinium, TG, DB and SotH are 2500, 3000, 2000, 2000, and 1500 Crowns worth each, or 11,000 in total. Depending on how you buy your Crowns, that's about $110, possibly less.

12 months of P2P sub: $179,88
5 DLCs: $110
1 Chapter: $39,99
= $329,87

ShedsHisTail

Ah that's right. I forgot there were no bonus Crowns until it went subscription optional. I'll make the adjustment when I get back to a real keyboard.

Ruckly

stevenbennett_ESO wrote: »

I'll chime in here and point out that aside from the two new races, I thought BC was a mediocre at best expansion. The new zones were big, but mostly a boring, tedious, slogfest with very little story or plot. I was never much a fan of WoW raiding, or even their dungeons -- they were simply excuses to grind for incrementally better gear and again, were generally boring and tedious. So BC really didn't do much for me -- the two new races and starting zones were the only really good part of it. (WotLK and Cataclysm were both significantly more interesting to me...)

Wrothgar, alone, had more in terms of story, plot, and interesting gameplay than the entire BC expansion combined. IMHO.

Huyen

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

dainswulf wrote: »

It's easier to make content for a game like WoW that is dated, and even when it was new has always looked like garbage.

I think things like the One Tamriel patch are more important features to attracting and keeping new players, as opposed to other MMO's that put in a shortcut of "Start a character at level 90! Skip all our years of previous content!".

WoW actually added an zone scaling mechanic before ESO, though it doesn't apply to the entire game. In Legion you quest through the leveling zones in whatever order you want and they all scale to 110 when you cap.

Scaling is only in Legion. All other zones are still linear questing.

Linaleah

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Ah that's right. I forgot there were no bonus Crowns until it went subscription optional. I'll make the adjustment when I get back to a real keyboard.

there were, actualy

people got them awarded retroactively for each month they stayed subscribed, as well as 500 coins for buying the game originaly. i don't remember if it was the full 1500 per month or 500 though. but there WERE retroactively awarded crowns

Doctordarkspawn

Tasear wrote: »

Morrowind is an chapter not dlc. So you need to exclude all dlc from comparison or other way around since said eso plus.

Craglorn trials are base game

Elder scrolls is great game, but if we compare a gaint like wow. It comes out small. That's okay though, I only been here a year and feel like there's significant progress. On other hand I stayed in wow for a day. So know this what has been done here is more than special. The only thing they really need maybe add content to Morrowind on top (not dlc) for these comparisons to stop. Also do better job next time and making it seem like a vaulable deal. But these wouldn't be so bad if there was better commucation. Not finte details, but help people believe in the game's vision @ZOS_GinaBruno

I look forward to the years to come.

It's a glorified DLC. Sorry, but it is. It does not add nearly enough content for what it's asking price is. WoW in the modern day provides much, much more for a additional 20 dollars than this game does.

Lemme spell it out: Morrowind, gets one zone. WoW, gets five. WoW comes with two raids, lets go three dungeons off the top of my head. (I could be wrong.) Morrowind gives one new trial.

WoW's offering more for a only 20 dollar additional pricetag with the same restrictions. I'm sorry, but ZOS calling this an expansion is just an attempt to get a cash infusion.

Doctordarkspawn

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Eh TBH myself and a large portion of my guild have started playing Neverwinter again due to this last ZOS debacle!! I mean at least NW has an ungodly TON of End Game Content. And it actually works and we can finish it without DCing 15 times while trying to complete it.


We have tried to give ZOS a lot of time to get things going in the right direction, but this last "Update" is just abysmal. The fact that they added more broken stuff without at least fixing the content that has been broken for over a year. "VMOL" I mean COME ON..

Yeah Im out for a while. Might be back, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Sadly I was here trying to defend ESO to a lot of people that were jumping ship just from the patch notes. I said "Nah they will get things fixed with this update" and "Oh it wont be as bad as King Richard, Deltia, and Alcast make it out to be..

Well color me fooled..

Honestly I was considering going back myself. Yeah, it's pay to win in many aspects but y'know what? At least there it's plain and the content isn't particularly bad for what your geting.

ShedsHisTail

Linaleah wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Ah that's right. I forgot there were no bonus Crowns until it went subscription optional. I'll make the adjustment when I get back to a real keyboard.

there were, actualy

people got them awarded retroactively for each month they stayed subscribed, as well as 500 coins for buying the game originaly. i don't remember if it was the full 1500 per month or 500 though. but there WERE retroactively awarded crowns

Good, less work for me. I think your right, I can check my payment history in my account, it has those retro active transactions on there.

Docmandu

One thing that is clear... Morrowind wasn't the "success" / "big hit" as they hoped it would be, judging by steamcharts: http://steamcharts.com/app/306130#1y ... the "bumps" are usually free to play weekends.... was expecting another bump for morrowind, but seems at least steam players didn't flock to the expansion.

Maybe people are tired of the amount of bugs and issues this game has and how ZOS seemingly just ignores it all.