One CP campaign is ripping my guild apart

Nermy

My guild, The Wabbajack (WJ), has always been Pact loyal since it was created the week after release. We recently had our 3rd birthday. We have always had rules that members are not allowed to play on the the guild's home campaign with toons from other alliances. Some of my members don't even have any characters in other alliances, I include myself in this.

Now ZoS in it's infinite wisdom has reduced the number of CP campaigns to 1. This is causing immense pain and upset within my guild as some members have toons on other alliances and wish to play with them.

Let me outline what happened...

One of our long-time members (let's call her Z) left because her PvE guild (who she had been with from release) were creating a PvP guild. Sadly they chose to be mainly DC. So our member and friend felt her position in WJ was untenable so she left sending me a lovely mail to explain.

Two further members (for over a year) felt the same, though these two were two of my officers who had helped me build WJ into a nice strong guild. They were in the same guild and friends with Z for longer than they had been in WJ. Now they felt their position untenable. One of my other officers also wanted to play with her AD friends in another guild.

So, as guild leader, I was left with 2 choices, change the direction of the guild, and hopefully keep my friends and fellow guild members, or lose them.

I put this to the guild and as you would expect, some members were fine with this - others dead-set against it. There have been a lot of angry words spoken and it really hurts me that we have been brought to this. My friends feel even worse. I understand both sides of the argument, I really do but to be honest, ZoS has created this situation and eroded alliance loyalty to the point where why should anyone really care. Campaigns are dead because 1 alliance rules the map and PvP gets no love and is really what brought a lot of players to the game, I've lost more friends leaving this game than I'll ever make in it again.

Let's just be clear what ZoS gave us:

1. A five guild system - players are not bound to one guild, therefore guild loyalty is non-existent.
2. One Tamriel - allowed players to play on any alliance in the same PvP campaign. Eroding alliance loyalty.
3. One CP campaign - this means our rule of being 'Pact Loyal' is eroded as some members wish to play with friends on other alliances and have no other campaign to fight on.

We've put it to a vote, whether to relax the rule or not, but I just want to thanks ZoS and in particular @Brian_Wheeler for not asking the community and not having the vision or foresight to see this would cause an issue. A very painful issue. This is a game, I should not feel like this because of a game.

I would also like to hear from anyone who has a similar story, issue or concern.

@Turelus - Tagging you Tarvy as an old member and ex-leader.

TL;DR - Having 1 CP campaign is totally destroying alliance allegiance and pulling apart guilds.

gabriebe

Or you can play a non-CP campaign.

Not like Haderus had a ton of people in it before anyway.

Nermy

gabriebe wrote: »

Or you can play a non-CP campaign.

Not like Haderus had a ton of people in it before anyway.

Believe me, if the answer was that f**king simple, I wouldn't have spent an hour writing the post. Anyway, nobody wishes to play on non-CP and who can blame them.

FearlessOne_2014

Nermy wrote: »

gabriebe wrote: »

Or you can play a non-CP campaign.

Not like Haderus had a ton of people in it before anyway.

Believe me, if the answer was that f**king simple, I wouldn't have spent an hour writing the post. Anyway, nobody wishes to play on non-CP and who can blame them.

This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Till ZOS finally decides to fix itemization and Poisons in Non CP. Very very few PvPers will subject themselves to that crap over there.

TequilaFire

For the life of me I can't understand why there is not at least 1 30 day and 1 7 day CP campaign giving people choices.
Makes no sense at all unless they really are heading to no CP at all and didn't have the backbone to do it all at once.

Brrrofski

Well it's more your guilds rule that is causing the problem really.

People in my guild play other alliances. We just don't zerg each other down if we see them fighting other people.

vamp_emily

I've seen this happen even before ESO made the change. A loyal guild has a member that wants to change sides and then everyone starts fighting about it in the guild.

I personally would keep the guild as a Loyal guild and just recruit new members, and then just kick the members that are traitors. You can still be friends with them even if their not in your guild.

I think you will lose member no matter what decision you make. The loyalists will leave if you become a tri-faction guild, and the flip floppers will leave if you stay as a loyal guild.

Nermy

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well it's more your guilds rule that is causing the problem really.

People in my guild play other alliances. We just don't zerg each other down if we see them fighting other people.

Ahh, you young X-Box players probably don't remember that back in the day, it was about factions and guilds were loyal to their factions. But that has all changed.

vamp_emily wrote: »

I've seen this happen even before ESO made the change. A loyal guild has a member that wants to change sides and then everyone starts fighting about it in the guild.

I personally would keep the guild as a Loyal guild and just recruit new members, and then just kick the members that are traitors. You can still be friends with them even if their not in your guild.

I think you will lose member no matter what decision you make. The loyalists will leave if you become a tri-faction guild, and the flip floppers will leave if you stay as a loyal guild.

They're not traitors, just want to play with their friends. Though I have told them we will hunt them down and I have offered a bounty of 5k gold if anyone gets a KB on them...

And sadly it is a lose/lose situation.

Alucu

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well it's more your guilds rule that is causing the problem really.

People in my guild play other alliances. We just don't zerg each other down if we see them fighting other people.

We do this as well even though we encourage our members to play DC toons

Turelus

It's sad to hear, especially with a guild of such old standing.

For me however the solution was always there and something I said about when I was leading and got told I was crazy and it was a stupid idea.

That is you make sure members who join you are treating WJ as their main guild. None of this PvP and PvE guilds where they're loyal to both (because you will have a conflict of raid nights and have to choose).

Build a guild where people are loyal to the guild and and this shouldn't be an issue. In the two years I was in Wabbajack I never had an alt guild, 2nd guild, PvE guild or any of that jazz. I was committed to Wabbajack and always chose it first.
Yes you'll have a smaller guild but you'll have members who are there for that guild and want to be a part of it, recruitment of anyone who always had or then add as second guild means they're going to lose commitment to your.

Probably not the answer you wanted from me, and I agree ZOS created this mess, but if people are truly members of Wabbajack they would have chosen Wabbajack and not their other guild, replace them with new loyal members and fight on.

Dr_Rektar

Turelus wrote: »

It's sad to hear, especially with a guild of such old standing.

For me however the solution was always there and something I said about when I was leading and got told I was crazy and it was a stupid idea.

That is you make sure members who join you are treating WJ as their main guild. None of this PvP and PvE guilds where they're loyal to both (because you will have a conflict of raid nights and have to choose).

Build a guild where people are loyal to the guild and and this shouldn't be an issue. In the two years I was in Wabbajack I never had an alt guild, 2nd guild, PvE guild or any of that jazz. I was committed to Wabbajack and always chose it first.
Yes you'll have a smaller guild but you'll have members who are there for that guild and want to be a part of it, recruitment of anyone who always had or then add as second guild means they're going to lose commitment to your.

Probably not the answer you wanted from me, and I agree ZOS created this mess, but if people are truly members of Wabbajack they would have chosen Wabbajack and not their other guild, replace them with new loyal members and fight on.

yeap, but hard to replace peeps, who contributed to guild a lot, helped imoroving it etc

Nermy

Turelus wrote: »

It's sad to hear, especially with a guild of such old standing.

For me however the solution was always there and something I said about when I was leading and got told I was crazy and it was a stupid idea.

That is you make sure members who join you are treating WJ as their main guild. None of this PvP and PvE guilds where they're loyal to both (because you will have a conflict of raid nights and have to choose).

Build a guild where people are loyal to the guild and and this shouldn't be an issue. In the two years I was in Wabbajack I never had an alt guild, 2nd guild, PvE guild or any of that jazz. I was committed to Wabbajack and always chose it first.
Yes you'll have a smaller guild but you'll have members who are there for that guild and want to be a part of it, recruitment of anyone who always had or then add as second guild means they're going to lose commitment to your.

Probably not the answer you wanted from me, and I agree ZOS created this mess, but if people are truly members of Wabbajack they would have chosen Wabbajack and not their other guild, replace them with new loyal members and fight on.

No Tarvy, not what I wanted to hear you ***! But you are essentially right. Wabbajack is my only guild. All others are banks or alliance guilds.

Anyway, why the hell didn't you do something about it when you were leader?

MipMip

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well it's more your guilds rule that is causing the problem really

Tempted to say: exactly :P

But more seriously if you want to be a guild for people to whom it's important and a priority, for their enjoyment of the game, to be loyal to one faction, then this is the type of experience you offer - you can't be everything to everyone.

Some people don't care about alliance, they just want good fights and for some, like me, it's even a part of the enjoyment to fight sometimes with, sometimes against the same people - it creates some of the most fun moments in PvP.

Brrrofski

Nermy wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well it's more your guilds rule that is causing the problem really.

People in my guild play other alliances. We just don't zerg each other down if we see them fighting other people.

Ahh, you young X-Box players probably don't remember that back in the day, it was about factions and guilds were loyal to their factions. But that has all changed.

vamp_emily wrote: »

I've seen this happen even before ESO made the change. A loyal guild has a member that wants to change sides and then everyone starts fighting about it in the guild.

I personally would keep the guild as a Loyal guild and just recruit new members, and then just kick the members that are traitors. You can still be friends with them even if their not in your guild.

I think you will lose member no matter what decision you make. The loyalists will leave if you become a tri-faction guild, and the flip floppers will leave if you stay as a loyal guild.

They're not traitors, just want to play with their friends. Though I have told them we will hunt them down and I have offered a bounty of 5k gold if anyone gets a KB on them...

And sadly it is a lose/lose situation.

Maybe you "old" PC players need to get with it and grow up, not whine on the forums?

Your guild's rule is the only issue here. Go cry them a river.

SirCritical

vamp_emily wrote: »

... and then just kick the members that are traitors. You can still be friends with them ...

It's just me who feels something strange reading these 2 sentences in connection of each other? Really, I think you just get this too seriously. While it's sad that lots of members are leaving (incl. officers), and I remember the time when it wasn't available to play in the same campaign with you different alliance chars, and I admit that ZOS is responsible for this whole thing, I still feel that your rules are too hard to follow, nowadays. This mixed system of guilds makes this issue to be real, sadly.

Hope you'll recover!

A guy who has only DC chars (except 1-1 from EP and AD, from the old times, when grouping up from different alliances for PvE content wasn't possible, and I created them to help grouped-play in a cross-alliance guild)

Nermy

@MipMip when you left, there was more than one CP campaign. And I am the same as you Mip, I just love a good fight. End of. Like I say in the OP, no-one cares for the campaign because AD are killing Vivec. Oh, I forgot, you left to join AD... :P

Grumble_and_Grunt

Just change your guild rules lol. Restricting guild members from playing on other alliances is just ridiculous and the mere fact someone in your guild felt they had to leave in order to play with other people is equally sad as a result of such a rule.

In other words modernise your guild, changes were made, so lift the ridiculous rule, you're the GM and just said you do not even care for the campaign so time for a change

Grumble_and_Grunt

Turelus wrote: »

It's sad to hear, especially with a guild of such old standing.

For me however the solution was always there and something I said about when I was leading and got told I was crazy and it was a stupid idea.

That is you make sure members who join you are treating WJ as their main guild. None of this PvP and PvE guilds where they're loyal to both (because you will have a conflict of raid nights and have to choose).

Build a guild where people are loyal to the guild and and this shouldn't be an issue. In the two years I was in Wabbajack I never had an alt guild, 2nd guild, PvE guild or any of that jazz. I was committed to Wabbajack and always chose it first.
Yes you'll have a smaller guild but you'll have members who are there for that guild and want to be a part of it, recruitment of anyone who always had or then add as second guild means they're going to lose commitment to your.

Probably not the answer you wanted from me, and I agree ZOS created this mess, but if people are truly members of Wabbajack they would have chosen Wabbajack and not their other guild, replace them with new loyal members and fight on.

I read this and had to double take I am reading about an in game Guild and not some far right political purist party lol.

MipMip

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

It's sad to hear, especially with a guild of such old standing.

For me however the solution was always there and something I said about when I was leading and got told I was crazy and it was a stupid idea.

That is you make sure members who join you are treating WJ as their main guild. None of this PvP and PvE guilds where they're loyal to both (because you will have a conflict of raid nights and have to choose).

Build a guild where people are loyal to the guild and and this shouldn't be an issue. In the two years I was in Wabbajack I never had an alt guild, 2nd guild, PvE guild or any of that jazz. I was committed to Wabbajack and always chose it first.
Yes you'll have a smaller guild but you'll have members who are there for that guild and want to be a part of it, recruitment of anyone who always had or then add as second guild means they're going to lose commitment to your.

Probably not the answer you wanted from me, and I agree ZOS created this mess, but if people are truly members of Wabbajack they would have chosen Wabbajack and not their other guild, replace them with new loyal members and fight on.

I read this and had to double take I am reading about an in game Guild and not some far right political purist party lol.

I couldn't agree more, Grumble_and_Grunt / Papa Guar ... LOL

MipMip

Nermy wrote: »

Oh, I forgot, you left to join AD... :P

I joined a guild that has an approach to PvP that I enjoy, not AD.

Nermy, not everyone thinks in terms of factions first!

timidobserver

That is a bad guild rule anyway.

Sanctum74

Its too bad they didnt make another cp campaign, but instead of the traditional alliances have it based off the way battlegrounds work. Have players que in and be placed in one of three made up alliances. We might not be able to always play with our friends but at least it would give us 1 campaign where the population would actually be balanced.

As far as all of the alliance swapping going on in the same camps im kind of torn. I always play ad and while i have met a lot of great flip floppers from ep and dc it has really ruined the campaigns. They flip the map on ad then switch to their dc and flip back.

Unfortunately this is a problem zos has created and at the very least if they could make it so they have to wait 24 hours before they can play on another alliance in the same campaign. This would still enable people to play both, but not be able to manipulate the map so much for their precious ap gains.

I understand people want to play with friends or get multiple ranked characters, but it shouldnt have to be at the expense of ruining the game for other players.

Darlgon

Its. pretty simple. Your guild rules dont agree with the games direction.. EVER.

Way back in Beta of the main game. I was telling people "this game is NOT designed for faction loyalty, since you use your account, instead of the characters." Back then, with no Cadwells, anything, you had to create one character in each alliance just to experience the other alliances quests.

Sigtric

This has everything to do with the rules in the guild as far as I can tell.

I get it though. Easy to blame ZOS, it's the cool thing to do on the forums.

ItchyTheRat

Miruku wrote: »

TLDR: Stop being a RP'er :')

goddammit naf -_- BAD NAF...BAD BAD NAF

QuebraRegra

TequilaFire wrote: »

For the life of me I can't understand why there is not at least 1 30 day and 1 7 day CP campaign giving people choices.
Makes no sense at all unless they really are heading to no CP at all and didn't have the backbone to do it all at once.

I despise CP, and even I have to agree that the playerbase needs to be offered options.

Seems like ZOS has realized the blunder that is the power creep that has come with CP and is looking to do away with it? They should continue to provide at least on CP campaign of each 30 day, and 7 day), while they are working on whatever system will replace CP, or it's huge re-design.

CP is not the only problem in CP of course.

There should be a bigger conversation with the playerbase on how the CP system can be improved/replaced. I'd like to see CPs as a form of currency allowing for a "point buy" system. Points could be used to purchase useful passives (like the current CP passives), skills from other classes (once you have 50 in each of your starter class skills), shaders and appearance options, and gear purchases (like what can be attained through trails/arenas, etc., and other stuffs. Still would require some re balancing, and PVE/PVp should be handles separately (already happening with some skills, etc.)

ColoursYouHave

That's what happens when you make a guild with strict faction-loyalty requirements in a game that has no emphasis on faction loyalty. At some point, regardless of what ZOS does with the campaigns, you're going to have people who want to leave the guild to play with members on other factions, and you can decide to either loosen the faction-loyalty requirements, or accept that you're going to eventually lose members due to the more "hardcore", for lack of a better word, nature of your guild. I've seen similar things happen to other guilds with faction-loyalty requirements before ZOS ever changed it so there is only 1 CP campaign. Members leaving a guild like that in this game is, IMO, inevitable.

Turelus

Nermy wrote: »

No Tarvy, not what I wanted to hear you ***! But you are essentially right. Wabbajack is my only guild. All others are banks or alliance guilds.

Anyway, why the hell didn't you do something about it when you were leader?

You can't take a guild which has recruited without a "main guild only" restriction and then apply it without causing a substantial exodus or purge. Wabbajack is a great guild and it wasn't worth breaking apart to fix an issue we never expected to be a problem.

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

I read this and had to double take I am reading about an in game Guild and not some far right political purist party lol.

If that sounds far right purist to you then I really want to live in wherever you do, it must be a socialist/liberal heaven.

It stands though that in a game where you have five guilds it's very hard to find players who are not treating your guild as a "thing I do when I don't play with my real guild" which sadly in my time leading WJ had a lot of.
Players who would join only to rank up their PvP skills so they could go run trials with their main guild, or who would leave raids to go join another active raid in Cyrodiil because you were their PvP guild when their first one wasn't around.

These are the players who when push comes to shove won't stick with you because you're not their reason to be playing. That's not what you want when you're trying to build a stable core of a guild which when issues like ZOS have created come up, it's a non-issue because people want to be part of the guild.

Also if you make this a recruitment standard and known from the start players can make mature choices if this is the correct guild for them. If they want freedom and many guilds they can retract an application and find another guild, if they really want to be part of your guild they would accepted it and play with those restrictions.

It probably seems less crazy to me because of my MMO background. The game I come from (and will avoid naming it on these forums yet again) you accept a lot of things to play with a group, often giving up some freedoms of your own for the work of the group.

Edit: Spellings/Typos

grim_tactics

I understand the importance for some to be loyal to a faction of a certain guild and I'm not going to tell anyone how to play the game, but it's your guild rules that are causing the problem.

If that's how you want it to remain then by all means do so. The players you will have, and future ones you will recruit, will understand your position and hopefully abide by the rules.

Hope you're able to work it out for the most part because you'll fix your end way before ZOS finds a way to fix theirs.

Ojustaboo

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

It's sad to hear, especially with a guild of such old standing.

For me however the solution was always there and something I said about when I was leading and got told I was crazy and it was a stupid idea.

That is you make sure members who join you are treating WJ as their main guild. None of this PvP and PvE guilds where they're loyal to both (because you will have a conflict of raid nights and have to choose).

Build a guild where people are loyal to the guild and and this shouldn't be an issue. In the two years I was in Wabbajack I never had an alt guild, 2nd guild, PvE guild or any of that jazz. I was committed to Wabbajack and always chose it first.
Yes you'll have a smaller guild but you'll have members who are there for that guild and want to be a part of it, recruitment of anyone who always had or then add as second guild means they're going to lose commitment to your.

Probably not the answer you wanted from me, and I agree ZOS created this mess, but if people are truly members of Wabbajack they would have chosen Wabbajack and not their other guild, replace them with new loyal members and fight on.

I read this and had to double take I am reading about an in game Guild and not some far right political purist party lol.

I suppose it depends on what your used to. When I played SWTOR and Lotro, I was only ever in one guild (well Lotro one split into two at one point) and the one thing I didn't like when I started playing ESO is the 5 guild system eradicates what I always found to be great, a guilds own community. We had our alliance guilds we also raided with etc.

From when eso released, I was in the same guild up until a few months ago, I had zero interest in multiple guilds, however sadly most of my friends in my main guild have lost faith in ESO and moved on to other games. It's still my main guild, it's a multi game guild, but its dead in this game.

Initially I joined a guild in a different faction for a change of play, but the guild leader left and threw a hissy fit demanding we change the guild name as he wanted to take his "Brand name" (that no one outside of the guild had probably ever heard of) to FF. I was dead against this, but I was new to the guild, hence my opinion was really irrelevant and in the end, I found the tone of the conversation, the threats from the remaining officers for me (and others) daring to criticise the original leader, that I left.

So I joined my current guild which was formed from numerous members of my original guild (members who had joined in ESO only, weren't so much part of the multi game aspect of it) and that is now really my main guild, although I'm permanently logged into my original guilds discord page.

I also had to join a couple of trading guilds, I really wish I didn't have to but no choice the way this stupid system works. But one was in Wayrest, the other in Stormhold. I could list things in Wayrest and they would be sold by the next time I logged in. I would list the same things for the same price in Stormhold and they would still often be there 2+ days later, so it became pointless belonging to that guild and I now just belong to the wayrest one (but the system of course works so well????)

Anyway, going completely off topic.

A one guild system creates a close-nit family (sure you get new members and people leaving all the time) but it creates many long term friendships that last into other games and even to real life meet ups etc. A five guild system sadly erodes this and while some guilds do still manage it, it's extremely hard as there's zero loyalty.

As to the OP, while I kind of understand what they are saying, their guild, their rules etc, I don't see the need for that sort of strictness personally, I own more than one account as do many others, if I was a member there, they wouldn't have a clue if I played on my other account on a different alliance.

Those rules also do zero to stop cheating (spying) as most of us are using 3rd party apps such as discord and even if someone never played on the opposite side, whose to say they aren't communicating with someone who is.

I am very good friends with another poster on this thread and I sometimes chat to them in discord while they're fighting in one alliance and I'm fighting in another, no cheating or helping going on, more laughing at each other if we manage to kill each other.

Still it's the Ops rules, although I do think they are pretty pointless with how this game now is.

geonsocal

Nermy wrote: »

Believe me, if the answer was that f**king simple, I wouldn't have spent an hour writing the post

best response ever...

looks though like you're either gonna have to draw a line in the sand or evolve...can't make everyone happy - so, do what you think is right...