Role of Nightblade

Lavennin

Templar is designed to be the best healer, DK the best tank, and Sorcerer the best DPS, these I understand. (Warden I don't know, I assume best healer as well?)

But which dungeon role is Nightblade supposed to excel in? (Dark Sacrament isn't a dungeon, right?)

I'm new to PVE and no min-maxer, so I won't change my role or class just because something is considered better. But I do wonder if there is an oversight somewhere, or if my understanding is wrong and there is something Nightblade does best.

I can imagine in a 5-person group, Nightblade can be designed to be an offensive support. CC and Debuffs and the sort, while Sorcerer is the cannon class. But we have 4-person dungeons only.

Have devs talked about this? And is there something I'm missing?

Tyrobag

Lavennin wrote: »

Templar is designed to be the best healer, DK the best tank, and Sorcerer the best DPS, these I understand. (Warden I don't know, I assume best healer as well?)

This statement is incorrect. No class is intended to be the only option for a specific role. The game was never designed to require one of each class for a dungeon. That being said, at the start of the game NB was considered to be on par with sorc for dps. The issue is that they let NB slide quite a bit while sorc has revived peripheral buffs through armor sets and weapons that synergize with their skills.

Bouldercleave

Lavennin wrote: »

Templar is designed to be the best healer, DK the best tank, and Sorcerer the best DPS, these I understand. (Warden I don't know, I assume best healer as well?)

But which dungeon role is Nightblade supposed to excel in? (Dark Sacrament isn't a dungeon, right?)

I'm new to PVE and no min-maxer, so I won't change my role or class just because something is considered better. But I do wonder if there is an oversight somewhere, or if my understanding is wrong and there is something Nightblade does best.

I can imagine in a 5-person group, Nightblade can be designed to be an offensive support. CC and Debuffs and the sort, while Sorcerer is the cannon class. But we have 4-person dungeons only.

Have devs talked about this? And is there something I'm missing?

In every game of chess, someone has to be the pawn.


All joking aside, my Stamblade is great for Solo PvE. It has a real "fun" factor to it, and performs very well. He will never see a leaderboard, or be top dog at anything. That is something that I accepted long ago.

QuebraRegra

"play as you want"

max_only

As a nightblade main I can tell you what we're good for!

Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood.
We're also not bad at fishing.
Some of us can still gank in Cyrodiil but just barely.

There you go! Have fun!

Lavennin

Tyrobag wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

Templar is designed to be the best healer, DK the best tank, and Sorcerer the best DPS, these I understand. (Warden I don't know, I assume best healer as well?)

This statement is incorrect. No class is intended to be the only option for a specific role. The game was never designed to require one of each class for a dungeon. That being said, at the start of the game NB was considered to be on par with sorc for dps. The issue is that they let NB slide quite a bit while sorc has revived peripheral buffs through armor sets and weapons that synergize with their skills.

Well, I agree with what you say, and I think you missed my point. Best != viable. So of course Templar isn't the only option for healer. I mean, I'm a Nightblade healer myself.

oSemaj

When I first started playing when the game launched on Xbox i was under the impression that DKs were the superior tank, Templars the best healer, Sorccer with the best AoE and Nightblades with the best single-target.

Woyb

Top 20 PVP player wth my Stamblade. Have my build ready for Morrowind. A Stamblade is great in small to medium conflicts in Cyrodiil. Being able to burst down a healer in the back, go stealth and begin again. You're a glass cannon. So act like it. PVE though I'm essentially useless. (PS snipe is for noobs so use heavy attack)

Avran_Sylt

*cough* make nightblade the best executioner class *cough*

ofSunhold

Dps. Nightblades do damage.

It's just... really borked now, and has been since the update when they screwed up cloak, a year ago I think?

Sorcs are in a good place. I'd like to see NBs in a that same kind of place. Killing the hell out of stuff.

sigh

Lavennin

Bouldercleave wrote: »

All joking aside, my Stamblade is great for Solo PvE. It has a real "fun" factor to it, and performs very well. He will never see a leaderboard, or be top dog at anything. That is something that I accepted long ago.

That is what I suspected. I enjoy questing with NB. So I guess NB is designed to be an overland questing class, with viable dungeon roles but not a best dungeon role?

Edit: oh and PVP. I don't PVP so I have no idea. Supposedly NB is very good?

LiquidPony

Nightblades, both Magicka and Stamina, are great for Maelstrom Arena. Of the few 600k+ scores I've seen, most of them are Nightblades.

And as of Morrowind, looks like magblades are about on par with magsorcs (perhaps slightly lower DPS but better group utility via skills like Funnel Health and Siphon Spirit and sets like Master Architect) and it appears that stamblades have the highest single-target DPS in the game, along with stamDKs, upwards of 46k on target skeleton.

And regardless, if you aren't running with a competitive raid/DSA group, Nightblades are perfectly suitable for all content in the game.

You can also make very solid dungeon healers and tanks out of Nightblades as well.

ShedsHisTail

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

Templar is designed to be the best healer, DK the best tank, and Sorcerer the best DPS, these I understand. (Warden I don't know, I assume best healer as well?)

But which dungeon role is Nightblade supposed to excel in? (Dark Sacrament isn't a dungeon, right?)

I'm new to PVE and no min-maxer, so I won't change my role or class just because something is considered better. But I do wonder if there is an oversight somewhere, or if my understanding is wrong and there is something Nightblade does best.

I can imagine in a 5-person group, Nightblade can be designed to be an offensive support. CC and Debuffs and the sort, while Sorcerer is the cannon class. But we have 4-person dungeons only.

Have devs talked about this? And is there something I'm missing?

In every game of chess, someone has to be the pawn.


All joking aside, my Stamblade is great for Solo PvE. It has a real "fun" factor to it, and performs very well. He will never see a leaderboard, or be top dog at anything. That is something that I accepted long ago.

So much truth here.

That said, single target DPS seems to be where the Nightblade excels in group content.
I'd love to see some group content designed with Nightblade utility in mind, you know (for a very simple example), like a room with a switch that you can either fight nasty mobs to get to, or let the Nightblade sneak past and throw the switch without a fight.

max_only

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nightblades, both Magicka and Stamina, are great for Maelstrom Arena. Of the few 600k+ scores I've seen, most of them are Nightblades.

And as of Morrowind, looks like magblades are about on par with magsorcs (perhaps slightly lower DPS but better group utility via skills like Funnel Health and Siphon Spirit and sets like Master Architect) and it appears that stamblades have the highest single-target DPS in the game, along with stamDKs, upwards of 46k on target skeleton.

And regardless, if you aren't running with a competitive raid/DSA group, Nightblades are perfectly suitable for all content in the game.

You can also make very solid dungeon healers and tanks out of Nightblades as well.

When you said magblades are on par with magsorcs I realized you were joking. Good job you almost had me going there lol!

Lavennin

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nightblades, both Magicka and Stamina, are great for Maelstrom Arena. Of the few 600k+ scores I've seen, most of them are Nightblades.

And as of Morrowind, looks like magblades are about on par with magsorcs (perhaps slightly lower DPS but better group utility via skills like Funnel Health and Siphon Spirit and sets like Master Architect) and it appears that stamblades have the highest single-target DPS in the game, along with stamDKs, upwards of 46k on target skeleton.

And regardless, if you aren't running with a competitive raid/DSA group, Nightblades are perfectly suitable for all content in the game.

You can also make very solid dungeon healers and tanks out of Nightblades as well.

Didn't know Morrowind buffs NB so much! Thanks. I saw the DPS test on Alcast's website and assumed NB's DPS is low.

This is good to know. (Though I'll stick with my NB healer. )

ShedsHisTail

ofSunhold wrote: »

Dps. Nightblades do damage.

It's just... really borked now, and has been since the update when they screwed up cloak, a year ago I think?

Sorcs are in a good place. I'd like to see NBs in a that same kind of place. Killing the hell out of stuff.

sigh

I'd like to see Nightblades in a place where they can burn down individual mobs at a comparable speed as a sorc AOEing them.

That is, if it were a race and a Sorc and NB each had five mobs to kill... If the Sorc just stood there and did AOE while the Nightblade exterminated them one by one, they's both finish off their group at roughly the same time.

Like, in normal dungeons this sort of works, as a Nightblade you can sneak to the back of a pack and pick off healers and ranged mobs fairly quickly while the rest of the group handles the melee mobs that move in and are easy to AOE. But when you get to Vet content, everything is too durable for this to be viable; by the time you finish off one mob, the rest of your group has killed everything else. So you're relegated to standing in the AOE pile throwing caltrops and spinning, which is fine, but also boring.

I'm aware that my ideal situation creates problems for PvP because it makes NB burst damage way too high to be fair when fighting other players... But it'd be a much more interesting way to contribute to group play.

AhPook_Is_Here

Lavennin wrote: »

Templar is designed to be the best healer, DK the best tank, and Sorcerer the best DPS, these I understand. (Warden I don't know, I assume best healer as well?)

But which dungeon role is Nightblade supposed to excel in? (Dark Sacrament isn't a dungeon, right?)

I'm new to PVE and no min-maxer, so I won't change my role or class just because something is considered better. But I do wonder if there is an oversight somewhere, or if my understanding is wrong and there is something Nightblade does best.

I can imagine in a 5-person group, Nightblade can be designed to be an offensive support. CC and Debuffs and the sort, while Sorcerer is the cannon class. But we have 4-person dungeons only.

Have devs talked about this? And is there something I'm missing?

Classes in this game don't follow to roles. Any class can fill any role with the right gear and skills slotted. Some classes are better at some roles than others but there is no reason any class can't fill any role if built for it. Nightblades can tank, heal or dps. Magicka Nbs can fill any of those roles pretty well and make good dps-healers where with a good group of 2 dps and a solid tank you can cover healing while still doing 20k+ dps. Stamina nightblades aren't well suited to healing, but can fill the other roles, though I think magicka builds make better tanks.

Lavennin

@AhPook_Is_Here
Well, why do so many people mix up concepts of optimization and viability? In my OP, I wasn't talking about viability.

I play a NB healer.

ShedsHisTail

The easiest way, i think the make the Stealthy Nightblade more fun in groups would be to bake in some flanking damage to the assassination tree. Like the Master Assassin passive, maybe add a bonus to damage done from behind or the sides instead of from stealth or crouched.

They're effectively the same in PvP since about the only time you're gonna get behind someone is that first hit, the they'll be bouncing all over making it much harder to do. And In PvE dungeons it'll allow you to move from target to target and burst them down as long as they're not looking right at you. And PvE solo content; cloak, stun, stab stab, cloak, stun, stab stab, etc.

I dunno, just like to see my assassin be more assassiny.

LegacyDM

Magicka nb has become a class that can perform all functions at once. In dungeons i off heal, off dps, and off tank all at once. Which can be a pretty powerful combo if played the right. The problem is we are a jack of all trades master of none and most of the trials require a lot of dps. By zos design I am forced to split up my roles . Just the nature of the
Skills in my tool box. I don't do enough dps to make the group happy and people overlook the other qualities i bring to the table. Everything is about dps check not off value to the group.

In pvp, being a jack of all trades master of none is even more
Pointless because the meta has always been burst, shields, and heals. Which at least, magicka nb doesn't, do particular well at because we are a master
Of none.

Lavennin

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

The easiest way, i think the make the Stealthy Nightblade more fun in groups would be to bake in some flanking damage to the assassination tree. Like the Master Assassin passive, maybe add a bonus to damage done from behind or the sides instead of from stealth or crouched.

They're effectively the same in PvP since about the only time you're gonna get behind someone is that first hit, the they'll be bouncing all over making it much harder to do. And In PvE dungeons it'll allow you to move from target to target and burst them down as long as they're not looking right at you. And PvE solo content; cloak, stun, stab stab, cloak, stun, stab stab, etc.

I dunno, just like to see my assassin be more assassiny.

This sounds really fun! I'd level a stamblade just for that.

In FF14 they do have something like this, and not just from behind. Makes melee DPS more challenging and rewarding. So I can't imagine it's technically impossible to do.

Queo

Ive never played a Nightblade, i was doing PvP the other day to get caltrops for my new tank, and this nightblade was wrecking our group by picking off all the people rezing the other players.

it went like,
Player A died
Player B rezing A
Enemy NB Stealthed in kills Player B before finish rez, Stealthes out.
Mob of players move in to help Player B, to late.
Player K died on other side of battle
Player L moves to rez
Same NB kills Player L...

you can see how this keeps going. It was annoying to me cause 1 on 1 I wreck both my wifes NB and a good Friend's NB... so yeah.

Enslaved

Lavennin wrote: »

Templar is designed to be the best healer, DK the best tank, and Sorcerer the best DPS, these I understand. (Warden I don't know, I assume best healer as well?)

But which dungeon role is Nightblade supposed to excel in? (Dark Sacrament isn't a dungeon, right?)

I'm new to PVE and no min-maxer, so I won't change my role or class just because something is considered better. But I do wonder if there is an oversight somewhere, or if my understanding is wrong and there is something Nightblade does best.

I can imagine in a 5-person group, Nightblade can be designed to be an offensive support. CC and Debuffs and the sort, while Sorcerer is the cannon class. But we have 4-person dungeons only.

Have devs talked about this? And is there something I'm missing?

Nightblade should be dps or tank. As a sNB, it is in middle spot of all 5 classes atm. As mNB, it is struggling to get that 3rd position. With sorcerer being over the top atm, NB is not glorious master class.

AhPook_Is_Here

Lavennin wrote: »

@AhPook_Is_Here
Well, why do so many people mix up concepts of optimization and viability? In my OP, I wasn't talking about viability.

I play a NB healer.

Because those are ambiguous words people toss around in MMOs to sound smart or because of an ESL issue where they can copy and paste it from another thread to have a conversation. The words are about as meaningful as other platitudes like "cancer" and "toxic" they have good feels but little specific meaning.

I think the "optimized" role for a NB is magicka DPS with off-healing in the current server build, however, when you are talking about PVE, you can be viable naked with a white stick for everything but vet dungeons, and for those you can be viable with blue gear in any role.

As far as trials go, it used to be that dps with strong off heals was a good thing, but now it seems everything just gets pigeon-holed into a single purpose. I'd imagine at some point NBs will see their DPS improved. Having said that, for things like solo trials, vMSA, magicka NBs can do very well and have an easy time of it. They are a strong solo class with so much healing as well as tanking buffs that just come naturally out of their dps rotation.

ShedsHisTail

Lavennin wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

The easiest way, i think the make the Stealthy Nightblade more fun in groups would be to bake in some flanking damage to the assassination tree. Like the Master Assassin passive, maybe add a bonus to damage done from behind or the sides instead of from stealth or crouched.

They're effectively the same in PvP since about the only time you're gonna get behind someone is that first hit, the they'll be bouncing all over making it much harder to do. And In PvE dungeons it'll allow you to move from target to target and burst them down as long as they're not looking right at you. And PvE solo content; cloak, stun, stab stab, cloak, stun, stab stab, etc.

I dunno, just like to see my assassin be more assassiny.

This sounds really fun! I'd level a stamblade just for that.

In FF14 they do have something like this, and not just from behind. Makes melee DPS more challenging and rewarding. So I can't imagine it's technically impossible to do.

Actually, There's a "Flanking" set that drops in the Gold Coast which gives bonus weapon damage from behind... I wonder if you could pair this with another set to get a really decent Assassin build which can burst stuff down in a hurry... Hmm...

Keep_Door

Woyb wrote: »

Top 20 PVP player wth my Stamblade.)

That doesnt really mean much. You could be top 5 by just zerg surfing and spamming heals. You just have to play 24/7.

LiquidPony

max_only wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nightblades, both Magicka and Stamina, are great for Maelstrom Arena. Of the few 600k+ scores I've seen, most of them are Nightblades.

And as of Morrowind, looks like magblades are about on par with magsorcs (perhaps slightly lower DPS but better group utility via skills like Funnel Health and Siphon Spirit and sets like Master Architect) and it appears that stamblades have the highest single-target DPS in the game, along with stamDKs, upwards of 46k on target skeleton.

And regardless, if you aren't running with a competitive raid/DSA group, Nightblades are perfectly suitable for all content in the game.

You can also make very solid dungeon healers and tanks out of Nightblades as well.

When you said magblades are on par with magsorcs I realized you were joking. Good job you almost had me going there lol!

@max_only

Have you tested magblade DPS in Morrowind? It's pretty fantastic. Twisting Path got a nice buff, multiple procs of the Spectral Bow is a huge DPS increase, and despite the Siphoning Attacks nerf it's still a good sustain tool that has no analogy for sorcs in PvE.

Right now, from my testing and what I've seen from following folks like Yolo and Mashinate and others, magsorcs are focusing on pet-based heavy attack builds and magblades are sticking to light attack/spammable weave builds (funnel health/swallow soul).

Magblades also have more flexibility and utility. Fair off-healing via their single-target and AoE spammables, along with the ability to play ranged (using Valkyn Skoria/Illambris with Meteor/Destro ult) or melee (using Grothdarr with Soul Harvest and Master Architect) effectively.

Mashinate's even back with an updated magblade build, for the first time since One Tamriel: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-magicka-dps-by-iwm/

It'll take some time to settle in but the vHoF leaderboards already have a larger share of Nightblades than Trials leaderboards have had at any time in 2017.

I know everyone loves a good "magsorc OP" circle-jerk, but people are going to be pleasantly surprised with the build and class diversity in Morrowind.

F7sus4

Tyrobag wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

Templar is designed to be the best healer, DK the best tank, and Sorcerer the best DPS, these I understand. (Warden I don't know, I assume best healer as well?)

This statement is incorrect.

It is. Only top-tier players understand why, though.

Gilvoth

nightblade shun:

VERB
persistently avoid, ignore, or reject through antipathy and non-grouping also removal from the group by means of Kicking.
this also includes ignoring all forms of chat including zone and guild chat.

Megabear

Lavennin wrote: »

Templar is designed to be the best healer, DK the best tank, and Sorcerer the best DPS, these I understand. (Warden I don't know, I assume best healer as well?)

But which dungeon role is Nightblade supposed to excel in? (Dark Sacrament isn't a dungeon, right?)

I'm new to PVE and no min-maxer, so I won't change my role or class just because something is considered better. But I do wonder if there is an oversight somewhere, or if my understanding is wrong and there is something Nightblade does best.

I can imagine in a 5-person group, Nightblade can be designed to be an offensive support. CC and Debuffs and the sort, while Sorcerer is the cannon class. But we have 4-person dungeons only.

Have devs talked about this? And is there something I'm missing?

I have a stamina NB. Definitely requires more skill and is more rewarding. That being said I prefer to use other characters to farm gear for my NB I'm still new so my experience might differ from more experienced players.

Artis

LiquidPony wrote: »

And regardless, if you aren't running with a competitive raid/DSA group, Nightblades are perfectly suitable for all content in the game.

And that's a problem. Why shouldn't he be able to run with a competitive group?