Role of Nightblade

Strider_Roshin

From what I've seen Nightblades are in a good spot in Morrowind for ST DPS. We'll know for sure in due time though.

max_only

LiquidPony wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nightblades, both Magicka and Stamina, are great for Maelstrom Arena. Of the few 600k+ scores I've seen, most of them are Nightblades.

And as of Morrowind, looks like magblades are about on par with magsorcs (perhaps slightly lower DPS but better group utility via skills like Funnel Health and Siphon Spirit and sets like Master Architect) and it appears that stamblades have the highest single-target DPS in the game, along with stamDKs, upwards of 46k on target skeleton.

And regardless, if you aren't running with a competitive raid/DSA group, Nightblades are perfectly suitable for all content in the game.

You can also make very solid dungeon healers and tanks out of Nightblades as well.

When you said magblades are on par with magsorcs I realized you were joking. Good job you almost had me going there lol!

@max_only

Have you tested magblade DPS in Morrowind? It's pretty fantastic. Twisting Path got a nice buff, multiple procs of the Spectral Bow is a huge DPS increase, and despite the Siphoning Attacks nerf it's still a good sustain tool that has no analogy for sorcs in PvE.

Right now, from my testing and what I've seen from following folks like Yolo and Mashinate and others, magsorcs are focusing on pet-based heavy attack builds and magblades are sticking to light attack/spammable weave builds (funnel health/swallow soul).

Mashinate's even back with an updated magblade build, for the first time since One Tamriel: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-magicka-dps-by-iwm/

It'll take some time to settle in but the vHoF leaderboards already have a larger share of Nightblades than Trials leaderboards have had at any time in 2017.

I know everyone loves a good "magsorc OP" circle-jerk, but people are going to be pleasantly surprised with the build and class diversity in Morrowind.

I don't care how "op" sorc may seem. That isn't my beef. I'm happy where Sorcs are, wizards are meant to be powerful.

I'm a magblade tank. I focus on sustain, survival. I don't care about killing fast, I want to outlast. I use refreshing path not twisting. Along with my other lifesteal abilities I don't need the extra heal from the new siphoning attacks. I need to keep up my magic sustain. I need to be able to stay alive/do damage by using abilities. A skill costing magic to regain magic, (needing a perfect weave to not only break even but to have gains) is useless to me. A skill that went from 4 light attacks to five doesn't help me either (not needing to recast after each spectral bow IS an improvement).

I base my critique off of play testing in the PTS not from test dummies. Dummies don't simulate what it's like to tank bosses that flop around. CAN I still play the game? Yes, sure. I Can solo as well , it just takes me even longer as compared to my off-meta Templar.

When the rest of ESO stops groaning and quitting when they get a nightblade in group then I will reduce my salt output. How to d that? Have a unified vision for nightblades. Make us kings of guerilla warfare, survivalists, crowd control, SOMETHING. As it is, I'm seeing less diversity not more. Then again, I'm always eager to learn and improve. If you got a sap tank build for Morrowind, I'd love to see it.

Haxer

I played exclusively NB from early access to a while back when I moved on from the game (before One Tamriel). I was a max level beast.

Then I came back after One Tamriel and hopped back on my one and only love. And I made the mistake of fighting two mudcrabs at the same time and promptly died.

You are correct in your assessments of DK, templar and sorc. Warden so far is "jack of all trades". Not the best at anything, but able to be anything. NB's have no role except "for fun".

LiquidPony

Artis wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

And regardless, if you aren't running with a competitive raid/DSA group, Nightblades are perfectly suitable for all content in the game.

And that's a problem. Why shouldn't he be able to run with a competitive group?

OK ... but that's not a Nightblade-specific complaint. In Homestead, "competitive" groups were all magsorc DPS unless you specifically needed a magDK for chains or a magplar for ranged execute nukes or off-heals.

That does not appear to be the case in Morrowind and I don't see any point dwelling on Homestead's lack of balance.

br0steen

Woyb wrote: »

Top 20 PVP player wth my Stamblade. Have my build ready for Morrowind. A Stamblade is great in small to medium conflicts in Cyrodiil. Being able to burst down a healer in the back, go stealth and begin again. You're a glass cannon. So act like it. PVE though I'm essentially useless. (PS snipe is for noobs so use heavy attack)

Interesting, Where's the top pvp player list?

LiquidPony

max_only wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nightblades, both Magicka and Stamina, are great for Maelstrom Arena. Of the few 600k+ scores I've seen, most of them are Nightblades.

And as of Morrowind, looks like magblades are about on par with magsorcs (perhaps slightly lower DPS but better group utility via skills like Funnel Health and Siphon Spirit and sets like Master Architect) and it appears that stamblades have the highest single-target DPS in the game, along with stamDKs, upwards of 46k on target skeleton.

And regardless, if you aren't running with a competitive raid/DSA group, Nightblades are perfectly suitable for all content in the game.

You can also make very solid dungeon healers and tanks out of Nightblades as well.

When you said magblades are on par with magsorcs I realized you were joking. Good job you almost had me going there lol!

@max_only

Have you tested magblade DPS in Morrowind? It's pretty fantastic. Twisting Path got a nice buff, multiple procs of the Spectral Bow is a huge DPS increase, and despite the Siphoning Attacks nerf it's still a good sustain tool that has no analogy for sorcs in PvE.

Right now, from my testing and what I've seen from following folks like Yolo and Mashinate and others, magsorcs are focusing on pet-based heavy attack builds and magblades are sticking to light attack/spammable weave builds (funnel health/swallow soul).

Mashinate's even back with an updated magblade build, for the first time since One Tamriel: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-magicka-dps-by-iwm/

It'll take some time to settle in but the vHoF leaderboards already have a larger share of Nightblades than Trials leaderboards have had at any time in 2017.

I know everyone loves a good "magsorc OP" circle-jerk, but people are going to be pleasantly surprised with the build and class diversity in Morrowind.

I don't care how "op" sorc may seem. That isn't my beef. I'm happy where Sorcs are, wizards are meant to be powerful.

I'm a magblade tank. I focus on sustain, survival. I don't care about killing fast, I want to outlast. I use refreshing path not twisting. Along with my other lifesteal abilities I don't need the extra heal from the new siphoning attacks. I need to keep up my magic sustain. I need to be able to stay alive/do damage by using abilities. A skill costing magic to regain magic, (needing a perfect weave to not only break even but to have gains) is useless to me. A skill that went from 4 light attacks to five doesn't help me either (not needing to recast after each spectral bow IS an improvement).

I base my critique off of play testing in the PTS not from test dummies. Dummies don't simulate what it's like to tank bosses that flop around. CAN I still play the game? Yes, sure. I Can solo as well , it just takes me even longer as compared to my off-meta Templar.

When the rest of ESO stops groaning and quitting when they get a nightblade in group then I will reduce my salt output. How to d that? Have a unified vision for nightblades. Make us kings of guerilla warfare, survivalists, crowd control, SOMETHING. As it is, I'm seeing less diversity not more. Then again, I'm always eager to learn and improve. If you got a sap tank build for Morrowind, I'd love to see it.

Well, not really sure what to say. Nightblade tank is a niche build. You got a good DK healer build for me?

The question asked by OP was "what role do NBs have in the game?" I think I answered that, but "awesome end-game tank" is not that role. They're great for PvP, Maelstrom, and PvE DPS and are flexible enough to fill the other roles for less demanding content.

ShedsHisTail

max_only wrote: »

Make us kings of guerilla warfare, survivalists, crowd control, SOMETHING.

This is what I signed up for, way back int he day, this is the Nightblade I had in mind when I started back in beta. I wanted to be stealthy, to strike fast and strike hard. To win not so much by brute force but by finesse and controlling the situation, not by attrition. To play a tactical game.

And for a while it kind of worked... but somewhere along the line a lot of little changes were made to make this less and less viable. For one, more an more mobs became immune to stealth and stuns and other forms of crowd control, making soloing bosses way more difficult for a character that relies on being able to control the flow of the battle; so while I can still solo a lot of content, world bosses or public dungeon bosses are basically off the table unless I want to drastically rejigger my build into something entirely different.

Single target DPS became less valuable in group play where people want to just burn down piles of mobs in four seconds or less. Cloaking was broken, fixed, reborked, refixt, and now it lives in some sort of limbo where it generally works most of the time... i dunno...

I'm not salty, I still love my Nightblade, all of my Nightblades, but I feel like the design philosophy for the class strayed somewhere and the game became very hostile toward all but the most homogenized of builds.

max_only

LiquidPony wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nightblades, both Magicka and Stamina, are great for Maelstrom Arena. Of the few 600k+ scores I've seen, most of them are Nightblades.

And as of Morrowind, looks like magblades are about on par with magsorcs (perhaps slightly lower DPS but better group utility via skills like Funnel Health and Siphon Spirit and sets like Master Architect) and it appears that stamblades have the highest single-target DPS in the game, along with stamDKs, upwards of 46k on target skeleton.

And regardless, if you aren't running with a competitive raid/DSA group, Nightblades are perfectly suitable for all content in the game.

You can also make very solid dungeon healers and tanks out of Nightblades as well.

When you said magblades are on par with magsorcs I realized you were joking. Good job you almost had me going there lol!

@max_only

Have you tested magblade DPS in Morrowind? It's pretty fantastic. Twisting Path got a nice buff, multiple procs of the Spectral Bow is a huge DPS increase, and despite the Siphoning Attacks nerf it's still a good sustain tool that has no analogy for sorcs in PvE.

Right now, from my testing and what I've seen from following folks like Yolo and Mashinate and others, magsorcs are focusing on pet-based heavy attack builds and magblades are sticking to light attack/spammable weave builds (funnel health/swallow soul).

Mashinate's even back with an updated magblade build, for the first time since One Tamriel: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-magicka-dps-by-iwm/

It'll take some time to settle in but the vHoF leaderboards already have a larger share of Nightblades than Trials leaderboards have had at any time in 2017.

I know everyone loves a good "magsorc OP" circle-jerk, but people are going to be pleasantly surprised with the build and class diversity in Morrowind.

I don't care how "op" sorc may seem. That isn't my beef. I'm happy where Sorcs are, wizards are meant to be powerful.

I'm a magblade tank. I focus on sustain, survival. I don't care about killing fast, I want to outlast. I use refreshing path not twisting. Along with my other lifesteal abilities I don't need the extra heal from the new siphoning attacks. I need to keep up my magic sustain. I need to be able to stay alive/do damage by using abilities. A skill costing magic to regain magic, (needing a perfect weave to not only break even but to have gains) is useless to me. A skill that went from 4 light attacks to five doesn't help me either (not needing to recast after each spectral bow IS an improvement).

I base my critique off of play testing in the PTS not from test dummies. Dummies don't simulate what it's like to tank bosses that flop around. CAN I still play the game? Yes, sure. I Can solo as well , it just takes me even longer as compared to my off-meta Templar.

When the rest of ESO stops groaning and quitting when they get a nightblade in group then I will reduce my salt output. How to d that? Have a unified vision for nightblades. Make us kings of guerilla warfare, survivalists, crowd control, SOMETHING. As it is, I'm seeing less diversity not more. Then again, I'm always eager to learn and improve. If you got a sap tank build for Morrowind, I'd love to see it.

Well, not really sure what to say. Nightblade tank is a niche build. You got a good DK healer build for me?

The question asked by OP was "what role do NBs have in the game?" I think I answered that, but "awesome end-game tank" is not that role. They're great for PvP, Maelstrom, and PvE DPS and are flexible enough to fill the other roles for less demanding content.

Okay then we are at an impasse lol.

Next track: what specific skill/buff/utility do nightblades bring to a group setting? Most of the stam nightblades I know use almost full bars of weapon skills or world skills. What do nightblades bring to the table within their own class skills that benefit a group setting? I'm genuinely curious, I don't have a preconceived answer.

ShedsHisTail

max_only wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nightblades, both Magicka and Stamina, are great for Maelstrom Arena. Of the few 600k+ scores I've seen, most of them are Nightblades.

And as of Morrowind, looks like magblades are about on par with magsorcs (perhaps slightly lower DPS but better group utility via skills like Funnel Health and Siphon Spirit and sets like Master Architect) and it appears that stamblades have the highest single-target DPS in the game, along with stamDKs, upwards of 46k on target skeleton.

And regardless, if you aren't running with a competitive raid/DSA group, Nightblades are perfectly suitable for all content in the game.

You can also make very solid dungeon healers and tanks out of Nightblades as well.

When you said magblades are on par with magsorcs I realized you were joking. Good job you almost had me going there lol!

@max_only

Have you tested magblade DPS in Morrowind? It's pretty fantastic. Twisting Path got a nice buff, multiple procs of the Spectral Bow is a huge DPS increase, and despite the Siphoning Attacks nerf it's still a good sustain tool that has no analogy for sorcs in PvE.

Right now, from my testing and what I've seen from following folks like Yolo and Mashinate and others, magsorcs are focusing on pet-based heavy attack builds and magblades are sticking to light attack/spammable weave builds (funnel health/swallow soul).

Mashinate's even back with an updated magblade build, for the first time since One Tamriel: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-magicka-dps-by-iwm/

It'll take some time to settle in but the vHoF leaderboards already have a larger share of Nightblades than Trials leaderboards have had at any time in 2017.

I know everyone loves a good "magsorc OP" circle-jerk, but people are going to be pleasantly surprised with the build and class diversity in Morrowind.

I don't care how "op" sorc may seem. That isn't my beef. I'm happy where Sorcs are, wizards are meant to be powerful.

I'm a magblade tank. I focus on sustain, survival. I don't care about killing fast, I want to outlast. I use refreshing path not twisting. Along with my other lifesteal abilities I don't need the extra heal from the new siphoning attacks. I need to keep up my magic sustain. I need to be able to stay alive/do damage by using abilities. A skill costing magic to regain magic, (needing a perfect weave to not only break even but to have gains) is useless to me. A skill that went from 4 light attacks to five doesn't help me either (not needing to recast after each spectral bow IS an improvement).

I base my critique off of play testing in the PTS not from test dummies. Dummies don't simulate what it's like to tank bosses that flop around. CAN I still play the game? Yes, sure. I Can solo as well , it just takes me even longer as compared to my off-meta Templar.

When the rest of ESO stops groaning and quitting when they get a nightblade in group then I will reduce my salt output. How to d that? Have a unified vision for nightblades. Make us kings of guerilla warfare, survivalists, crowd control, SOMETHING. As it is, I'm seeing less diversity not more. Then again, I'm always eager to learn and improve. If you got a sap tank build for Morrowind, I'd love to see it.

Well, not really sure what to say. Nightblade tank is a niche build. You got a good DK healer build for me?

The question asked by OP was "what role do NBs have in the game?" I think I answered that, but "awesome end-game tank" is not that role. They're great for PvP, Maelstrom, and PvE DPS and are flexible enough to fill the other roles for less demanding content.

Okay then we are at an impasse lol.

Next track: what specific skill/buff/utility do nightblades bring to a group setting? Most of the stam nightblades I know use almost full bars of weapon skills or world skills. What do nightblades bring to the table within their own class skills that benefit a group setting? I'm genuinely curious, I don't have a preconceived answer.

I think that's kind of the problem with Nightblades; that the vast majority of their utility, and -all- of their unique capabilities are very selfish by design. There's no "Mass Cloak," ya know. Nightblades just don't really bring a lot to the table, group wise, that someone else doesn't bring better and cheaper. They're still, very much, a soloist class...

Chibs

Why are people so attached to the argument any x class can do any x role. Of course that is true, but DKs are the best tanks. Templars are the best healers. Sorcerers are the best DPS. Stamblade may have risen to the top of the DPS chain as of this post though. Hopefully that stays true.

ShedsHisTail

Chibs wrote: »

Why are people so attached to the argument any x class can do any x role. Of course that is true, but DKs are the best tanks. Templars are the best healers. Sorcerers are the best DPS. Stamblade may have risen to the top of the DPS chain as of this post though. Hopefully that stays true.

I'm just one guy here, and my opinion means very little I'm sure, but I'm never going to accept target dummy numbers as a valid example of practical application. Yeah, Stamblade puts up some big numbers when the bad guy just stands there and takes it and doesn't fight back...

But what do those numbers look like when that same Stamblade has to chase the mob all over, dodge the red and down adds in the process while everyone -not- in melee range is able to pretty much stand in one place and go to town.

LiquidPony

max_only wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nightblades, both Magicka and Stamina, are great for Maelstrom Arena. Of the few 600k+ scores I've seen, most of them are Nightblades.

And as of Morrowind, looks like magblades are about on par with magsorcs (perhaps slightly lower DPS but better group utility via skills like Funnel Health and Siphon Spirit and sets like Master Architect) and it appears that stamblades have the highest single-target DPS in the game, along with stamDKs, upwards of 46k on target skeleton.

And regardless, if you aren't running with a competitive raid/DSA group, Nightblades are perfectly suitable for all content in the game.

You can also make very solid dungeon healers and tanks out of Nightblades as well.

When you said magblades are on par with magsorcs I realized you were joking. Good job you almost had me going there lol!

@max_only

Have you tested magblade DPS in Morrowind? It's pretty fantastic. Twisting Path got a nice buff, multiple procs of the Spectral Bow is a huge DPS increase, and despite the Siphoning Attacks nerf it's still a good sustain tool that has no analogy for sorcs in PvE.

Right now, from my testing and what I've seen from following folks like Yolo and Mashinate and others, magsorcs are focusing on pet-based heavy attack builds and magblades are sticking to light attack/spammable weave builds (funnel health/swallow soul).

Mashinate's even back with an updated magblade build, for the first time since One Tamriel: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-magicka-dps-by-iwm/

It'll take some time to settle in but the vHoF leaderboards already have a larger share of Nightblades than Trials leaderboards have had at any time in 2017.

I know everyone loves a good "magsorc OP" circle-jerk, but people are going to be pleasantly surprised with the build and class diversity in Morrowind.

I don't care how "op" sorc may seem. That isn't my beef. I'm happy where Sorcs are, wizards are meant to be powerful.

I'm a magblade tank. I focus on sustain, survival. I don't care about killing fast, I want to outlast. I use refreshing path not twisting. Along with my other lifesteal abilities I don't need the extra heal from the new siphoning attacks. I need to keep up my magic sustain. I need to be able to stay alive/do damage by using abilities. A skill costing magic to regain magic, (needing a perfect weave to not only break even but to have gains) is useless to me. A skill that went from 4 light attacks to five doesn't help me either (not needing to recast after each spectral bow IS an improvement).

I base my critique off of play testing in the PTS not from test dummies. Dummies don't simulate what it's like to tank bosses that flop around. CAN I still play the game? Yes, sure. I Can solo as well , it just takes me even longer as compared to my off-meta Templar.

When the rest of ESO stops groaning and quitting when they get a nightblade in group then I will reduce my salt output. How to d that? Have a unified vision for nightblades. Make us kings of guerilla warfare, survivalists, crowd control, SOMETHING. As it is, I'm seeing less diversity not more. Then again, I'm always eager to learn and improve. If you got a sap tank build for Morrowind, I'd love to see it.

Well, not really sure what to say. Nightblade tank is a niche build. You got a good DK healer build for me?

The question asked by OP was "what role do NBs have in the game?" I think I answered that, but "awesome end-game tank" is not that role. They're great for PvP, Maelstrom, and PvE DPS and are flexible enough to fill the other roles for less demanding content.

Okay then we are at an impasse lol.

Next track: what specific skill/buff/utility do nightblades bring to a group setting? Most of the stam nightblades I know use almost full bars of weapon skills or world skills. What do nightblades bring to the table within their own class skills that benefit a group setting? I'm genuinely curious, I don't have a preconceived answer.

Minor Savagery for all nightblades and off-heals via Funnel Health and Siphon Spirit for magblades. Cheap ultimates to proc War Machine/Master Architect. Magblades have an extremely powerful ranged execute, which is very useful in all sorts of content.

Stamblades, from what I've seen so far, have the highest single-target DPS in the game in Morrowind. And they're using Surprise Attack now, so you've likely got 3 class skills + an Ulti (Killer's Blade, Surprise Attack, Relentless Focus, Soul Harvest/Incap) on the front bar and then Mirage and/or Leeching Strikes on the back bar. Few stam DW/Bow DPS are going to go without Flawless Dawnbreaker, Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Deadly Cloak, Rearming Trap, Razor Caltrops, etc.; those skills are extremely powerful and not exclusive to stamblade bars. They don't have class stam DoTs like Venomous Claw/Noxious Breath on a DK ... but DKs don't have a stam class spammable or execute. And stamblades now have Major Ward/Major Resolve up nearly 100% of the time courtesy of using Surprise Attack as the primary DPS ability, and the Morrowind increase in Shadow Barrier uptime.

Shanjijri

LiquidPony wrote: »

You can also make very solid dungeon healers and tanks out of Nightblades as well.

Agreed. I'm playing a NB healer for three years and I know two excellent NB tanks.

LiquidPony

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Chibs wrote: »

Why are people so attached to the argument any x class can do any x role. Of course that is true, but DKs are the best tanks. Templars are the best healers. Sorcerers are the best DPS. Stamblade may have risen to the top of the DPS chain as of this post though. Hopefully that stays true.

I'm just one guy here, and my opinion means very little I'm sure, but I'm never going to accept target dummy numbers as a valid example of practical application. Yeah, Stamblade puts up some big numbers when the bad guy just stands there and takes it and doesn't fight back...

But what do those numbers look like when that same Stamblade has to chase the mob all over, dodge the red and down adds in the process while everyone -not- in melee range is able to pretty much stand in one place and go to town.

Sure ... but that's true for magDKs, magplars, stamDKs, stamsorcs, and stamplars as well. Magblades and magsorcs have the ranged advantage.

But between big Igenous Shields from health-stacking tanks, Major Evasion + Minor Resolve + Minor Ward from Mirage, Major Resolve + Major Ward from Shadow Barrier, 25% AoE mitigation from Deadly Cloak, and the increased mitigation across the board from Ironclad CP ... I'm actually surprised at how survivable stamblades are this patch.

Sinolai

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/stamina-nightblade-pve-dps-for-morrowind/#post-683027

46K DPS is not that bad.

LiquidPony

Sinolai wrote: »

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/stamina-nightblade-pve-dps-for-morrowind/#post-683027

46K DPS is not that bad.

I expect stamDKs can get close (I know nothing about stamDK and I was over 40k on target skeleton with a heavy attack build on PTS, with sub-optimal CP and gear), but I doubt any other build will top stamblade single-target this patch.

I was on the "woe is me" train when the first patch notes released, but the change to Grim Focus was a *huge* buff and Master-at-Arms allows us to switch to Surprise Attack which has huge survivability benefits as well. Caltrops buff is a sizable increase to cleave DPS, too, and while the Siphoning Strikes nerf sucked ... the fact that it isn't 100% necessary anymore gives you flexibility to run, say, Mirage and up your survivability even further.

I can't wait to get my stamblade into vAA HM with Alkosh/War Machine to see how it works.

ShedsHisTail

LiquidPony wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Chibs wrote: »

Why are people so attached to the argument any x class can do any x role. Of course that is true, but DKs are the best tanks. Templars are the best healers. Sorcerers are the best DPS. Stamblade may have risen to the top of the DPS chain as of this post though. Hopefully that stays true.

I'm just one guy here, and my opinion means very little I'm sure, but I'm never going to accept target dummy numbers as a valid example of practical application. Yeah, Stamblade puts up some big numbers when the bad guy just stands there and takes it and doesn't fight back...

But what do those numbers look like when that same Stamblade has to chase the mob all over, dodge the red and down adds in the process while everyone -not- in melee range is able to pretty much stand in one place and go to town.

Sure ... but that's true for magDKs, magplars, stamDKs, stamsorcs, and stamplars as well. Magblades and magsorcs have the ranged advantage.

But between big Igenous Shields from health-stacking tanks, Major Evasion + Minor Resolve + Minor Ward from Mirage, Major Resolve + Major Ward from Shadow Barrier, 25% AoE mitigation from Deadly Cloak, and the increased mitigation across the board from Ironclad CP ... I'm actually surprised at how survivable stamblades are this patch.

I'm sure you'd know that better than me, so I'm not debating it at all; but I am questioning it. I'm skeptical.

Survivability doesn't make the DPS any bigger, it just means they can keep it up longer. What my question was is: Can a Stamblade maintain their position at the top of the DPS charts in a dynamic situation in the same way they can a static situation?

When you say, "Stamblades, from what I've seen so far, have the highest single-target DPS in the game in Morrowind." You're talking about a static situation. But what you've said above is that Magblades and Magsorcs have the ranged advantage in a -dynamic- situation. Does that ranged advantage out-pace the Stamblade's single target DPS in a dynamic situation?

Are Stamblades -actually- the highest single target DPS in Morrowind in a practical way?
Or are they just good mannequin killers?

MisterBigglesworth

I remember when Nightblades were wanted for Trials specifically for Veil of Blades.
I don't know what the status of that is anymore since i haven't done a Trial in like 2 years, but it sounds like it's not nearly as necessary as used to be.

Cloak, Fear, and Shadow Image are some other things (almost) exclusive to Nightblades, and Dungeons/Trials would do well to contain encounters that are much harder if you don't have those utilities in your group.

WalksonGraves

NB are dedicated furniture farming class.

LiquidPony

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Chibs wrote: »

Why are people so attached to the argument any x class can do any x role. Of course that is true, but DKs are the best tanks. Templars are the best healers. Sorcerers are the best DPS. Stamblade may have risen to the top of the DPS chain as of this post though. Hopefully that stays true.

I'm just one guy here, and my opinion means very little I'm sure, but I'm never going to accept target dummy numbers as a valid example of practical application. Yeah, Stamblade puts up some big numbers when the bad guy just stands there and takes it and doesn't fight back...

But what do those numbers look like when that same Stamblade has to chase the mob all over, dodge the red and down adds in the process while everyone -not- in melee range is able to pretty much stand in one place and go to town.

Sure ... but that's true for magDKs, magplars, stamDKs, stamsorcs, and stamplars as well. Magblades and magsorcs have the ranged advantage.

But between big Igenous Shields from health-stacking tanks, Major Evasion + Minor Resolve + Minor Ward from Mirage, Major Resolve + Major Ward from Shadow Barrier, 25% AoE mitigation from Deadly Cloak, and the increased mitigation across the board from Ironclad CP ... I'm actually surprised at how survivable stamblades are this patch.

I'm sure you'd know that better than me, so I'm not debating it at all; but I am questioning it. I'm skeptical.

Survivability doesn't make the DPS any bigger, it just means they can keep it up longer. What my question was is: Can a Stamblade maintain their position at the top of the DPS charts in a dynamic situation in the same way they can a static situation?

When you say, "Stamblades, from what I've seen so far, have the highest single-target DPS in the game in Morrowind." You're talking about a static situation. But what you've said above is that Magblades and Magsorcs have the ranged advantage in a -dynamic- situation. Does that ranged advantage out-pace the Stamblade's single target DPS in a dynamic situation?

Are Stamblades -actually- the highest single target DPS in Morrowind in a practical way?
Or are they just good mannequin killers?

Speaking in terms of Trials fights ...

HRC: first boss you can stand in one place the whole fight, second boss (bottom) you an stand in one place for 95% of the fight with the right strat (no stam DPS should go up top because lightning staves are OP on that boss), The Warrior you can stand in one place for the whole fight except on Hard Mode where the first couple of minutes has the whole group on the move (but you're moving from one position standing in front of the boss to another where you continue standing in front of the boss).

AA: first boss requires movement and is a DPS loss for all melee builds, second boss you can be on the boss the whole fight, third boss you can stand in one place the whole fight, The Mage you can park on the boss on normal and Hard Mode.

SO: the only movement required in this Trial is avoiding popcorn on the Mantikora and the World Shaper on The Serpent, but neither of those mechanics have a significant impact on DPS. For Stonebreaker and Ozara you don't have to move.

MoL: first boss you have to move to cleanse which is a DPS loss for all melee builds, The Twins you can stay on boss for the majority of the fight except during conversions where you just buff up and throw out Bow bar DoTs while you run over and park on the other boss, Rakkhat you can park on the boss as he moves from platform to platform.

So, by my count, the vast majority of Trials fights are mostly static. You don't often need to detach yourself from a boss's hip. I can't speak to HoF as I haven't completed it yet.

LiquidPony

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

I remember when Nightblades were wanted for Trials specifically for Veil of Blades.
I don't know what the status of that is anymore since i haven't done a Trial in like 2 years, but it sounds like it's not nearly as necessary as used to be.

Cloak, Fear, and Shadow Image are some other things (almost) exclusive to Nightblades, and Dungeons/Trials would do well to contain encounters that are much harder if you don't have those utilities in your group.

It's preferable to just run have a healer run Mending and have your Templars throw Novas in most of the strategies being used today.

KeiruNicrom

The current role of NBs i have no idea but i think if ZOS ever wants to revitalize the class then a debuff that only NBs have available to them and an increase to NBs DoT damage is the way to go.

Also a change to master assassin and executioner passives would be nice. Make master assassin give a constant effect then an added effect when in stealth or attacking from stealth. And executioner could use stamina return added to it

ShedsHisTail

LiquidPony wrote: »

So, by my count, the vast majority of Trials fights are mostly static. You don't often need to detach yourself from a boss's hip.

Well, that sounds boring... lol

altemriel

Tyrobag wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

Templar is designed to be the best healer, DK the best tank, and Sorcerer the best DPS, these I understand. (Warden I don't know, I assume best healer as well?)

This statement is incorrect. No class is intended to be the only option for a specific role. The game was never designed to require one of each class for a dungeon. That being said, at the start of the game NB was considered to be on par with sorc for dps. The issue is that they let NB slide quite a bit while sorc has revived peripheral buffs through armor sets and weapons that synergize with their skills.

nope, you can have a nb healer, nb tank, nb dps, dk tank, dk dps, ....

IronCrystal

LiquidPony wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Chibs wrote: »

Why are people so attached to the argument any x class can do any x role. Of course that is true, but DKs are the best tanks. Templars are the best healers. Sorcerers are the best DPS. Stamblade may have risen to the top of the DPS chain as of this post though. Hopefully that stays true.

I'm just one guy here, and my opinion means very little I'm sure, but I'm never going to accept target dummy numbers as a valid example of practical application. Yeah, Stamblade puts up some big numbers when the bad guy just stands there and takes it and doesn't fight back...

But what do those numbers look like when that same Stamblade has to chase the mob all over, dodge the red and down adds in the process while everyone -not- in melee range is able to pretty much stand in one place and go to town.

Sure ... but that's true for magDKs, magplars, stamDKs, stamsorcs, and stamplars as well. Magblades and magsorcs have the ranged advantage.

But between big Igenous Shields from health-stacking tanks, Major Evasion + Minor Resolve + Minor Ward from Mirage, Major Resolve + Major Ward from Shadow Barrier, 25% AoE mitigation from Deadly Cloak, and the increased mitigation across the board from Ironclad CP ... I'm actually surprised at how survivable stamblades are this patch.

I'm sure you'd know that better than me, so I'm not debating it at all; but I am questioning it. I'm skeptical.

Survivability doesn't make the DPS any bigger, it just means they can keep it up longer. What my question was is: Can a Stamblade maintain their position at the top of the DPS charts in a dynamic situation in the same way they can a static situation?

When you say, "Stamblades, from what I've seen so far, have the highest single-target DPS in the game in Morrowind." You're talking about a static situation. But what you've said above is that Magblades and Magsorcs have the ranged advantage in a -dynamic- situation. Does that ranged advantage out-pace the Stamblade's single target DPS in a dynamic situation?

Are Stamblades -actually- the highest single target DPS in Morrowind in a practical way?
Or are they just good mannequin killers?

Speaking in terms of Trials fights ...

HRC: first boss you can stand in one place the whole fight, second boss (bottom) you an stand in one place for 95% of the fight with the right strat (no stam DPS should go up top because lightning staves are OP on that boss), The Warrior you can stand in one place for the whole fight except on Hard Mode where the first couple of minutes has the whole group on the move (but you're moving from one position standing in front of the boss to another where you continue standing in front of the boss).

AA: first boss requires movement and is a DPS loss for all melee builds, second boss you can be on the boss the whole fight, third boss you can stand in one place the whole fight, The Mage you can park on the boss on normal and Hard Mode.

SO: the only movement required in this Trial is avoiding popcorn on the Mantikora and the World Shaper on The Serpent, but neither of those mechanics have a significant impact on DPS. For Stonebreaker and Ozara you don't have to move.

MoL: first boss you have to move to cleanse which is a DPS loss for all melee builds, The Twins you can stay on boss for the majority of the fight except during conversions where you just buff up and throw out Bow bar DoTs while you run over and park on the other boss, Rakkhat you can park on the boss as he moves from platform to platform.

So, by my count, the vast majority of Trials fights are mostly static. You don't often need to detach yourself from a boss's hip. I can't speak to HoF as I haven't completed it yet.

One thing to mention though, some fights can only have so many melee dps. Even if the fight allows for melee, not everyone can be melee.

Easy examples are Mantikora, first boss in MoL, and final boss vAA. I'm sure there's others but those were the first I thought of.

Stam characters are also at a disadvantage due to lack of good shields. Having the extra shield is often better than having good self-healing as most stam characters do. This is especially important in fights where you are taking large hits often (ones you might not survive without shields). First thing that comes to mind is vMoL hard mode.

Loralai_907

Well, the role of MY NB is to sit there on my character list while I glare at her for boring me to death. Can't bring myself to delete her, because I might forget how boring they are and decide to make a new one a few months later, and I just do not want to go through all of that again. Everyone has their thing, NB's are not mine.

Lavennin

@AhPook_Is_Here
I think an argument can be made without any assumptions from reading other threads. My idea of viability and optimization comes from dictionary definition. I've noticed that people used the concepts interchangeably, which does not seem correct.

I tried to DPS with my healer and found situational use: when the group work very well and are able to avoid most damage, so minimal healing is required. In this case, NB healer outperforms (an assumption; there is still the question of self DPS vs group utility and I don't know much about that), but the game does not seem to actively create an environment to promote the role of an offensive healer. Just as you said, vet dungeons can be done with sub-par setup, so it's sad to say offensive NB healer/magblade is optimzed for that content, because said content requires no optimization. And I find it strange a class was designed with that in mind: a specific situation where no one needs to make too much effort in optimization.

The vMA/solo argument is good though, and I can be convinced that the design direction of NB is a strong solo class. That is my question: I want to know what concept it is behind the design of NB. It seems strangely bland and undetermined.

PlagueSD

Nightblade is my "gold collector" His fingers are VERY sticky...

4/4 locksmith means he can open any chest in under 4 seconds.
Improved sneak means he can do that while standing RIGHT behind an NPC.
Blade of Woe is good for those pesky bandits out in the world that spawn next to chests.

He loots and plunders everything...

Kalante

I would love to see sorc shields be incremental like vigor's heals. The amount of tears that would create from the mag sorc community of how weak they would become while us stam nb users are like hello? we've been dealing with this the entire time. l2p.

ShedsHisTail

PlagueSD wrote: »

Nightblade is my "gold collector" His fingers are VERY sticky...

4/4 locksmith means he can open any chest in under 4 seconds.
Improved sneak means he can do that while standing RIGHT behind an NPC.
Blade of Woe is good for those pesky bandits out in the world that spawn next to chests.

He loots and plunders everything...

You literally just listed three common-pool skills that anyone, even non-Nightblades, can get.
I feel like this just reinforces the idea that Nightblades are not as unique as they once were.