DPS Testing - How Should Testers Test?

X_LadyPhoenix_X

Hello, everyone! I'm fairly new to the forums (this is my first post XD), but have been playing the game practically since console launch. I'm a GM of an active social guild on PS4 NA, and we've been really trying to get the members into doing Vet Trials. One of the things we are trying to do is DPS testing. I'm unsure of how the testing should go on the testers end. I've heard of several ways, but wonder of the why for some of these testing options. It seems that magicka characters will get more of a benefit from their testing setups... Worm gives them reduce cost to magicka, Moondancer gives them either spell power or magicka recovery, elemental drain breaches as well as gives magicka back with magic steal. Where as with stamina characters all they get is breach from pierce armor and some stamina recovery from shards, which also does some damage over time. From the way I look at it, pierce armor and shards can do the same thing for stamina and magicka characters... Why have different testing setups for magicka characters? Maybe I'm missing something... Any feedback will be greatly appreciated!

FlyLionel

Solo dps test is just solo, let them do their parse on the skelly and you just watch, let them apply breach and whatever they want. No pierce armour/shards/orbs or worm.

Once their dps is solid on a solo parse you can bet their dps in a raid will go up.

Stam ideally would be 30k+ and Magicka 35k+ Numbers can go down for certain trials, mainly hel ra.

Those numbers are for players who have strong gear setups mind you, also welcome to the forums.

Shad0wfire99

Most of the top guilds on XBox give Worm, Ele Drain, and have someone pop orbs for you. 1 ulti. No pets. No Lightning Wall. 75 points into Thaum. Make it as much like a raid scenario as possible, rotation wise.

X_LadyPhoenix_X

I guess most of my question lies in the fact of why give magicka characters the added benefit of worm, when stamina characters won't get such a buff. Why not have both test with just pierce armor and shards (illuminating)? It'll do the same thing for both attribute types, yes?

Magdalina

X_LadyPhoenix_X wrote: »

I guess most of my question lies in the fact of why give magicka characters the added benefit of worm, when stamina characters won't get such a buff. Why not have both test with just pierce armor and shards (illuminating)? It'll do the same thing for both attribute types, yes?

Because you can? Both on dummy and in a raid scenario. Mag dps will/should get Worm and Drain in a raid so makes sense to test with it on the dummy too.

Shad0wfire99

X_LadyPhoenix_X wrote: »

I guess most of my question lies in the fact of why give magicka characters the added benefit of worm, when stamina characters won't get such a buff. Why not have both test with just pierce armor and shards (illuminating)? It'll do the same thing for both attribute types, yes?

Because at the moment, most mag classes have no chance to sustain through an entire parse without that support, while stam classes can. Post-Morrowind, though, who knows how testing will work?

FlyLionel

No one is saying not to. If you want to do that; that is fine. I believe the Morrowind patch will make shards give magicka a big chunk of resources back, currently it doesn't give the same thing like it does stamina wise.

X_LadyPhoenix_X

FlyLionel wrote: »

Solo dps test is just solo, let them do their parse on the skelly and you just watch, let them apply breach and whatever they want. No pierce armour/shards/orbs or worm.

Once their dps is solid on a solo parse you can bet their dps in a raid will go up.

Stam ideally would be 30k+ and Magicka 35k+ Numbers can go down for certain trials, mainly hel ra.

Those numbers are for players who have strong gear setups mind you, also welcome to the forums.

Thank you for the Welcome! It's hard to get 30k on a stam character. I know from personal experience. I haven't tested since I got my last piece of twice fang, but I've been only getting like 23k while receiving the pierce armor buff.

FlyLionel

X_LadyPhoenix_X wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

Solo dps test is just solo, let them do their parse on the skelly and you just watch, let them apply breach and whatever they want. No pierce armour/shards/orbs or worm.

Once their dps is solid on a solo parse you can bet their dps in a raid will go up.

Stam ideally would be 30k+ and Magicka 35k+ Numbers can go down for certain trials, mainly hel ra.

Those numbers are for players who have strong gear setups mind you, also welcome to the forums.

Thank you for the Welcome! It's hard to get 30k on a stam character. I know from personal experience. I haven't tested since I got my last piece of twice fang, but I've been only getting like 23k while receiving the pierce armor buff.

I hit 33k dps with nmg and the usual kragh bis vma setup, rotation is the key thing here...and be redguard; I can't sustain caltops on my imperial. Easily 34-35k self buffed ;( msg me on psn: FlyyLionel I have a guild slot open I believe..If you want

X_LadyPhoenix_X

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

X_LadyPhoenix_X wrote: »

I guess most of my question lies in the fact of why give magicka characters the added benefit of worm, when stamina characters won't get such a buff. Why not have both test with just pierce armor and shards (illuminating)? It'll do the same thing for both attribute types, yes?

Because at the moment, most mag classes have no chance to sustain through an entire parse without that support, while stam classes can. Post-Morrowind, though, who knows how testing will work?

Thank you! This was the type of answer I was looking for. So now the question will be... How to test when Morrowind drops? Only one week left for console.

code65536

The most important thing is to be consistent. The "right" way to test is the way that most people use, because that produces results that you can more easily compare. Much of it is arbitrary.

That said, there is a general rule of thumb: Leave out buffs that won't change someone's rotation. We don't provide SPC or Combat Prayer or War Horn because you wouldn't do anything different whether you had them or not, and it adds an extra variable that makes comparing results more difficult (e.g., avoiding situations where Alice's parse was worse because Bob had better War Horn uptime in his test).

In contrast, buffs to sustain are provided externally. If the tester runs out of resources and has to switch to heavy attacking more often than usual, that affects their rotation. If you have someone run their own Ele, it adds an extra skill to the mix and takes away a bar spot. If your goal is to test someone's competence at their rotation, having them run their own ele makes zero sense. (And then you might as well add pierce so that stamina parses are comparable to magicka parses with ele.)

In general, on PC/NA, DPS tests are predominantly done with externally-provided worm, ele, and orbs (with pierce/shards for stamina to maintain parity with magicka) and no other external buffs. Players are usually asked to run Fire blockade instead of Shock blockade for the sake of results that are more useful for comparison. We will sometimes ask petsorcs to provide a petless parse alongside their pet parse.

Royaji

If you are doing DPS testing for Vet Trials it is kinda logical to test with the same conditions as in an actual trial. Pierce Armor, Shards, Orbs, Ele Drain and Worm are the usual support your group will get during a trial run. Brecause of that they are used in testing.

You can also do solo-tests but they do not answer the question if the person is ready for Vet Trials.

Shad0wfire99

code65536 wrote: »

The most important thing is to be consistent. The "right" way to test is the way that most people use, because that produces results that you can more easily compare. Much of it is arbitrary.

That said, there is a general rule of thumb: Leave out buffs that won't change someone's rotation. We don't provide SPC or Combat Prayer or War Horn because you wouldn't do anything different whether you had them or not, and it adds an extra variable that makes comparing results more difficult (e.g., avoiding situations where Alice's parse was worse because Bob had better War Horn uptime in his test).

In contrast, buffs to sustain are provided externally. If the tester runs out of resources and has to switch to heavy attacking more often than usual, that affects their rotation. If you have someone run their own Ele, it adds an extra skill to the mix and takes away a bar spot. If your goal is to test someone's competence at their rotation, having them run their own ele makes zero sense. (And then you might as well add pierce so that stamina parses are comparable to magicka parses with ele.)

In general, on PC/NA, DPS tests are predominantly done with externally-provided worm, ele, and orbs (with pierce/shards for stamina to maintain parity with magicka) and no other external buffs. Players are usually asked to run Fire blockade instead of Shock blockade for the sake of results that are more useful for comparison. We will sometimes ask petsorcs to provide a petless parse alongside their pet parse.

This. I was just much too lazy to be this in depth. lol

Phytanic

X_LadyPhoenix_X wrote: »

I guess most of my question lies in the fact of why give magicka characters the added benefit of worm, when stamina characters won't get such a buff. Why not have both test with just pierce armor and shards (illuminating)? It'll do the same thing for both attribute types, yes?

Because most serious raid guilds dont run Stam tbh. Sure there is a few exceptions, but for the most part it's "mag or bust"

X_LadyPhoenix_X

Phytanic wrote: »

X_LadyPhoenix_X wrote: »

I guess most of my question lies in the fact of why give magicka characters the added benefit of worm, when stamina characters won't get such a buff. Why not have both test with just pierce armor and shards (illuminating)? It'll do the same thing for both attribute types, yes?

Because most serious raid guilds dont run Stam tbh. Sure there is a few exceptions, but for the most part it's "mag or bust"

This I know. I think that this fact is unfortunate, but what can I do. I also don't consider my guild a serious raid guild, I just want to help my members get through the vet trials for the time being. Most of them want to do vet content, but may not quite understand what is needed to do so. Hence the introduction of dps testing for my guild. Once we can get through vet trials consistently, we may move to trying for leaderboard runs, and look into what type of characters are best for such runs.

Azicah

Healers apply only Elemental Drain, Worm, and Orbs. DPS is by themselves, with no other outside buff (ex: SPC, Warhorn, Combat Prayer, Powerful Assualt, and others). They must use what they use in real Trial environments (which means, yes, put a shield on your bar, and 75 into Thaumaturge, Inferno Blockade, in some cases no pet). That's all really.


Edit: Every class should be aiming over 35k+. It's possible, even pre-Morrowind Magblades and can hit 40k+.

djdc1234

X_LadyPhoenix_X wrote: »

Hello, everyone! I'm fairly new to the forums (this is my first post XD), but have been playing the game practically since console launch. I'm a GM of an active social guild on PS4 NA, and we've been really trying to get the members into doing Vet Trials. One of the things we are trying to do is DPS testing. I'm unsure of how the testing should go on the testers end. I've heard of several ways, but wonder of the why for some of these testing options. It seems that magicka characters will get more of a benefit from their testing setups... Worm gives them reduce cost to magicka, Moondancer gives them either spell power or magicka recovery, elemental drain breaches as well as gives magicka back with magic steal. Where as with stamina characters all they get is breach from pierce armor and some stamina recovery from shards, which also does some damage over time. From the way I look at it, pierce armor and shards can do the same thing for stamina and magicka characters... Why have different testing setups for magicka characters? Maybe I'm missing something... Any feedback will be greatly appreciated!

Dps tests the way they are set are stupid ... sure know your rotation but having to action cancel to be taken into the vet trials should not be a thing.. i was pulling on an all purp mag sorc 16k at 3,20 sec for a wile till i gold my weapons and and necky. now not even trying to action cancel with the gold weapons im making 18 to 20k at 2,30 sec no ulti and no weakness to eli. things should be different thats for sure, im sure once i learn to make my rotation better things will get better.

but when you know the fights and the mechanics you should be taken in to vet. people should be taking groups in to learn *** and not relying on oh can you do 30k dps on a still skely

itsfatbass

FlyLionel wrote: »

Solo dps test is just solo, let them do their parse on the skelly and you just watch, let them apply breach and whatever they want. No pierce armour/shards/orbs or worm.

Once their dps is solid on a solo parse you can bet their dps in a raid will go up.

Stam ideally would be 30k+ and Magicka 35k+ Numbers can go down for certain trials, mainly hel ra.

Those numbers are for players who have strong gear setups mind you, also welcome to the forums.

Asking for players to parse 35k for a vet trial test is too high. 25k seems to be the baseline.

Shad0wfire99

jphipps85b14_ESO1 wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

Solo dps test is just solo, let them do their parse on the skelly and you just watch, let them apply breach and whatever they want. No pierce armour/shards/orbs or worm.

Once their dps is solid on a solo parse you can bet their dps in a raid will go up.

Stam ideally would be 30k+ and Magicka 35k+ Numbers can go down for certain trials, mainly hel ra.

Those numbers are for players who have strong gear setups mind you, also welcome to the forums.

Asking for players to parse 35k for a vet trial test is too high. 25k seems to be the baseline.

25k is fine if you have no interest in trying to get weekly rewards from the trial. 20k might be ok, actually. But if you want a real score, or want to do hard modes, 35k is the baseline. Any lower than that and you're just making it harder on yourself.

MaxwellC

@X_LadyPhoenix_X
The best way to test in my opinion is not simply relying on a skeleton because the skeleton does not in any shape or form translate to what you can do in actual combat unless you're doing content where you receive no damage and do not have to worry about mechanics.
When testing our what builds are viable for DPS I usually see what I can achieve on the skeleton then bring the setup to vMSA and see what I can achieve sustain and damage wise/how much time it takes to complete it. If my score is above 450k then the setup is optimal and ready for trials.

Anyone who solely relies on a skeleton is inaccurately providing data on how that build will preform in actual combat where mechanics and factors such as damage taken and or avoiding damage via dodge. This is my opinion again but I feel it's pretty logical when you look at how actual fights go vs how a fight against a skeleton that does nothing to you other than stares at you.

MilwaukeeScott

We just started Vet Trials on PS4 NA.

Ele for Mag

Puncture for Stam

Kill a 3M dummy

Sustain 25K DPS

idk

Many top guilds provide ele drain and orbs to magika and puncture with shards for stamina. Of course shards and orbs are interchangeable to a degree now. Orbs or shards every 25% is good.

While I see someone said if the player wants breach they should apply it themselves and no orbs or shards, but the build/rotation they would have to use for that is not the rotation you want them to use in trials.

It is a bad idea to have the player develop bad habits.

When I am just practicing my rotation I do not worry about all that but I am also not trying to kill the skelly. When I am actualy testing my DPS I want to practice it like I should be playing it.

Ep1kMalware

X_LadyPhoenix_X wrote: »

Hello, everyone! I'm fairly new to the forums (this is my first post XD), but have been playing the game practically since console launch. I'm a GM of an active social guild on PS4 NA, and we've been really trying to get the members into doing Vet Trials. One of the things we are trying to do is DPS testing. I'm unsure of how the testing should go on the testers end. I've heard of several ways, but wonder of the why for some of these testing options. It seems that magicka characters will get more of a benefit from their testing setups... Worm gives them reduce cost to magicka, Moondancer gives them either spell power or magicka recovery, elemental drain breaches as well as gives magicka back with magic steal. Where as with stamina characters all they get is breach from pierce armor and some stamina recovery from shards, which also does some damage over time. From the way I look at it, pierce armor and shards can do the same thing for stamina and magicka characters... Why have different testing setups for magicka characters? Maybe I'm missing something... Any feedback will be greatly appreciated!

Here is how my guild does it, if you're looking for examples.i'm ps4 na jf you're looking for an endgame gyild.

Stam:

Less than 130 seconds for vet trials
Less than 95 seconds for vet maw
Less than 90 seconds for vet hardmode trials
major fracture is applied.

Magica

Less than 130 seconds for vet trials
Less than 95 seconds for vet maw
Less than 100 seconds for vet hardmode trials
You have harness magica provided
You do not get worm/orbs
You may not use lightning wall, you must use fire wall only

Ii'm ps4 na if you are looking for a solid endgame guild/

Ep1kMalware

Phytanic wrote: »

X_LadyPhoenix_X wrote: »

I guess most of my question lies in the fact of why give magicka characters the added benefit of worm, when stamina characters won't get such a buff. Why not have both test with just pierce armor and shards (illuminating)? It'll do the same thing for both attribute types, yes?

Because most serious raid guilds dont run Stam tbh. Sure there is a few exceptions, but for the most part it's "mag or bust"

Sort of true but kind of not. My guild has prewritten rosters for each position in the trial. For example vmol has 2 spots for only magdk, right and left, 4 places for ranged dps, and 2 spaces for mele dps, main tank and off tank, and both healers. If you want to take stam in you can put it in a mele dps spot. No1 will care as long as you are not constantly dead.

Vhrd for example, has 4 spots for mele/range dps. So you can bring up to 4 stam dps to that raid. As long as that toon passes the test you can bring any damned thing you'd like.

Each guild varies tho.

Phytanic

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Phytanic wrote: »

X_LadyPhoenix_X wrote: »

I guess most of my question lies in the fact of why give magicka characters the added benefit of worm, when stamina characters won't get such a buff. Why not have both test with just pierce armor and shards (illuminating)? It'll do the same thing for both attribute types, yes?

Because most serious raid guilds dont run Stam tbh. Sure there is a few exceptions, but for the most part it's "mag or bust"

Sort of true but kind of not. My guild has prewritten rosters for each position in the trial. For example vmol has 2 spots for only magdk, right and left, 4 places for ranged dps, and 2 spaces for mele dps, main tank and off tank, and both healers. If you want to take stam in you can put it in a mele dps spot. No1 will care as long as you are not constantly dead.

Vhrd for example, has 4 spots for mele/range dps. So you can bring up to 4 stam dps to that raid. As long as that toon passes the test you can bring any damned thing you'd like.

Each guild varies tho.

Yeah, I guess it does vary between guilds. For my guild, we usually do 2 magdk, 5 ranged, and I usually am the lone magplar lol.

Wrecking_Blow_Spam

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Phytanic wrote: »

X_LadyPhoenix_X wrote: »

I guess most of my question lies in the fact of why give magicka characters the added benefit of worm, when stamina characters won't get such a buff. Why not have both test with just pierce armor and shards (illuminating)? It'll do the same thing for both attribute types, yes?

Because most serious raid guilds dont run Stam tbh. Sure there is a few exceptions, but for the most part it's "mag or bust"

Sort of true but kind of not. My guild has prewritten rosters for each position in the trial. For example vmol has 2 spots for only magdk, right and left, 4 places for ranged dps, and 2 spaces for mele dps, main tank and off tank, and both healers. If you want to take stam in you can put it in a mele dps spot. No1 will care as long as you are not constantly dead.

Vhrd for example, has 4 spots for mele/range dps. So you can bring up to 4 stam dps to that raid. As long as that toon passes the test you can bring any damned thing you'd like.

Each guild varies tho.

Sounds like a quality guild. Shame I'm on a different server/console.

Ep1kMalware

MaxwellC wrote: »

@X_LadyPhoenix_X
The best way to test in my opinion is not simply relying on a skeleton because the skeleton does not in any shape or form translate to what you can do in actual combat unless you're doing content where you receive no damage and do not have to worry about mechanics.
When testing our what builds are viable for DPS I usually see what I can achieve on the skeleton then bring the setup to vMSA and see what I can achieve sustain and damage wise/how much time it takes to complete it. If my score is above 450k then the setup is optimal and ready for trials.

Anyone who solely relies on a skeleton is inaccurately providing data on how that build will preform in actual combat where mechanics and factors such as damage taken and or avoiding damage via dodge. This is my opinion again but I feel it's pretty logical when you look at how actual fights go vs how a fight against a skeleton that does nothing to you other than stares at you.

many bosses have moments where you can dps it unimpeded, and skele demonstrates what your best dps is. If your best dps is hella low then what will be your dps in a raid be?

Skele isnt useless unless youre butthurt of score

Tan9oSuccka

X_LadyPhoenix_X wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

Solo dps test is just solo, let them do their parse on the skelly and you just watch, let them apply breach and whatever they want. No pierce armour/shards/orbs or worm.

Once their dps is solid on a solo parse you can bet their dps in a raid will go up.

Stam ideally would be 30k+ and Magicka 35k+ Numbers can go down for certain trials, mainly hel ra.

Those numbers are for players who have strong gear setups mind you, also welcome to the forums.

Thank you for the Welcome! It's hard to get 30k on a stam character. I know from personal experience. I haven't tested since I got my last piece of twice fang, but I've been only getting like 23k while receiving the pierce armor buff.

I want to know this too. I average around 18K on a Stam NB. I know Nord isn't the best choice but can't seem to crack much higher.

Ep1kMalware

djdc1234 wrote: »

X_LadyPhoenix_X wrote: »

Hello, everyone! I'm fairly new to the forums (this is my first post XD), but have been playing the game practically since console launch. I'm a GM of an active social guild on PS4 NA, and we've been really trying to get the members into doing Vet Trials. One of the things we are trying to do is DPS testing. I'm unsure of how the testing should go on the testers end. I've heard of several ways, but wonder of the why for some of these testing options. It seems that magicka characters will get more of a benefit from their testing setups... Worm gives them reduce cost to magicka, Moondancer gives them either spell power or magicka recovery, elemental drain breaches as well as gives magicka back with magic steal. Where as with stamina characters all they get is breach from pierce armor and some stamina recovery from shards, which also does some damage over time. From the way I look at it, pierce armor and shards can do the same thing for stamina and magicka characters... Why have different testing setups for magicka characters? Maybe I'm missing something... Any feedback will be greatly appreciated!

Dps tests the way they are set are stupid ... sure know your rotation but having to action cancel to be taken into the vet trials should not be a thing.. i was pulling on an all purp mag sorc 16k at 3,20 sec for a wile till i gold my weapons and and necky. now not even trying to action cancel with the gold weapons im making 18 to 20k at 2,30 sec no ulti and no weakness to eli. things should be different thats for sure, im sure once i learn to make my rotation better things will get better.

but when you know the fights and the mechanics you should be taken in to vet. people should be taking groups in to learn *** and not relying on oh can you do 30k dps on a still skely

NEVER animation cancel for dps test or trial. Period.

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

X_LadyPhoenix_X wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

Solo dps test is just solo, let them do their parse on the skelly and you just watch, let them apply breach and whatever they want. No pierce armour/shards/orbs or worm.

Once their dps is solid on a solo parse you can bet their dps in a raid will go up.

Stam ideally would be 30k+ and Magicka 35k+ Numbers can go down for certain trials, mainly hel ra.

Those numbers are for players who have strong gear setups mind you, also welcome to the forums.

Thank you for the Welcome! It's hard to get 30k on a stam character. I know from personal experience. I haven't tested since I got my last piece of twice fang, but I've been only getting like 23k while receiving the pierce armor buff.

I want to know this too. I average around 18K on a Stam NB. I know Nord isn't the best choice but can't seem to crack much higher.

What classes? I'm doing 38.3k solo on my stamina templar, and my best parse atm is 44k with major fracture. 51k from 50%

Edit: i have magsorc, stamdk, stamblade, stamsorc, stamplar, and magdk. But the only 2 I can give build rotation advice on is splar/magdk as my others are mules.

Ep1kMalware

MaxwellC wrote: »

@X_LadyPhoenix_X
The best way to test in my opinion is not simply relying on a skeleton because the skeleton does not in any shape or form translate to what you can do in actual combat unless you're doing content where you receive no damage and do not have to worry about mechanics.
When testing our what builds are viable for DPS I usually see what I can achieve on the skeleton then bring the setup to vMSA and see what I can achieve sustain and damage wise/how much time it takes to complete it. If my score is above 450k then the setup is optimal and ready for trials.

Anyone who solely relies on a skeleton is inaccurately providing data on how that build will preform in actual combat where mechanics and factors such as damage taken and or avoiding damage via dodge. This is my opinion again but I feel it's pretty logical when you look at how actual fights go vs how a fight against a skeleton that does nothing to you other than stares at you.

LOL okay man. Have fun getting booted because you backbar a resto or ,mainbar 2h in vma.

In the real world: You have group support im trial, you stamd still and dps. Exadtly like skele.

Artis

code65536 wrote: »

The most important thing is to be consistent. The "right" way to test is the way that most people use, because that produces results that you can more easily compare. Much of it is arbitrary.

That said, there is a general rule of thumb: Leave out buffs that won't change someone's rotation. We don't provide SPC or Combat Prayer or War Horn because you wouldn't do anything different whether you had them or not, and it adds an extra variable that makes comparing results more difficult (e.g., avoiding situations where Alice's parse was worse because Bob had better War Horn uptime in his test).

In contrast, buffs to sustain are provided externally. If the tester runs out of resources and has to switch to heavy attacking more often than usual, that affects their rotation. If you have someone run their own Ele, it adds an extra skill to the mix and takes away a bar spot. If your goal is to test someone's competence at their rotation, having them run their own ele makes zero sense. (And then you might as well add pierce so that stamina parses are comparable to magicka parses with ele.)

In general, on PC/NA, DPS tests are predominantly done with externally-provided worm, ele, and orbs (with pierce/shards for stamina to maintain parity with magicka) and no other external buffs. Players are usually asked to run Fire blockade instead of Shock blockade for the sake of results that are more useful for comparison. We will sometimes ask petsorcs to provide a petless parse alongside their pet parse.

Pretty much. Just one thing to add/ask. Would rapid regeneration casted by a vMA resto staff user help too? Of course, not wearing SPC or any buff sets.