Non Dk Tank Suggestions & General NB Stuff

actosh

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_MattFiror

@Lapin_Logic @Brrrofski @aeowulf @Anastian @esoub17_ESO12 @AllPlayAndNoWork @Lynx7386 @crobarXIII @Liofa @Gilliamtherogue @paulsimonps @Woeler

Hey, since ZOS stated that they want to keep all classes viable in all roles across all content this is my take on Tanking with the different classes wich is since release until now purely dominated by Dragonknights. Sure you can do basicly everything in the game as a non dk tank, but lets be honest, you could do all of that way better if you would play a Dk, since additional offhealing
offdpsing isnt a usefull addition to your groups.

Eric Wrobel told me that they are always open for suggestions (sure they have their vision how the game should be) and that i should post it for visibility and constructive discussion into the PTS forum, so here we are

I honestly hope we can have a constructive discussion without dk´s feeling to be obsolete in the future. If u have additional suggestions please feel free to post them here in a constructive way. Thanks a lot and you better get a coffee before you start reading the wall of text.


About me:
I have Tanked basicly all the stuff there is with all 4 classes and i have spend way to much money to test
out different builds/playstyles on each of the classes. The main goal should be to make all the other classes viable tanks
and considerable choices for endgametanking, without making dk´s obsolete or useless. This should be the main goal.
Keep in mind that this is all feedback based on my experience Tanking all stuff with each of the 4 classes. Reaching from
boring pledges up to endgame veteran hardmode trials.



Before we start, lets see what most group´s expect us to do as Tanks in the Elder Scrolls Online.

- Self Sustaining Stam/Mag without crying permanently for Shards/Orbs
- Support dps with buffs/debuffs (Alkosh/Warhorn ect)
- Control the Battlefield (basicly preventing mobs via root/chaining to *** our dps/heals. Stack stuff to burn it down.)
- Protect the Group as good as we can ( or as good as ZOS gives us the tools to do so *looking at you boneshield u useless piece of crap*)
- Keep Aggro (that was obvious wasnt it ^^)
- Staying alive (that was obvious wasnt it ^^)
- Chain/pull stuff together so it can be killed fast

Now lets see what makes dk´s totaly awesome Tanks in every Dungeon/trial in the game and compare them to the non dk Tanks.

CHAINING ENEMYS IN
Dragonknight
- Chains
Well, they have been more powerfull in the past where you could have chained stuff that is now unchainable.

Non-Dk Tanks
- Swarm Mother Monster Set
While this set was a step into the right direction it needs some serious tweaking to be more effective and to prevent for example silver leash(only usefull skill to fill that role after a rework) to become a pull like chains are.

Options to solve this issue and to make other tanks competitive:
1: Swarm Mother rework
- Couple the 2nd Bonus to the Undaunted taunt (inner fire). If u activate it the targetet enemy is pulled directly to you (1 sec cooldown).
- Rework the Setbonus since non dk tanks are limited since they cant wear another monster set.

Right now set bonus is: (1piece) Stamreg (2piece) the pull thing
Suggested Change: (1 piece) Armor/Spellresistance (2piece) When you use the undaunted taunt you pull the enemy directly to you. +Healthbonus like on chudan.
That way it would still offer some tank related stats and give a pullability to non dk tanks. Chaining enemys in is almost a neccesity and this would be a elegant solution for this.
This way all non dk tanks need to give up 2 Slots on their gear and still have ressource cost to pull a enemy, while leaving dk´s the option to use another 2 piece set.

2: Silver Leash rework
Definitly not my favored solution, but just revert the funcion so that you pull a enemy to you with the silver leash.
Since it costs stamina it still leaves a advantage to dk´s chains only costing magicka.



CROWD CONTROL
Dragonknight
- Talons
No need to explain anything, a pretty awesome skill used by tanks and mag dps.

Non Dk Tanks
Sorcerer has encase, wich is pretty decent for immobilizing enemys.

NB/Templars have no such skill that could help them to root enemys.

Options to make them a bit more competitive in that area without making them all to equal.
Templar: Shards could be a nice ability to apply a strong slow on enemys in the area of effect.
Nightblades: Path or Drain Power( both morphs ) could get a slow enemys down effect to add something to their crowd control skills. Duration max 4 seconds!

This way a pure root will always be stronger and preferable compared to slow´s no matter how strong they are but it would give classes without a root aviable tool to control them a bit.


Groupshielding
Dragonknight
- Obsidian Shield & Morphs
Lets be honest, that skill is just awesome, u get to protect your team by shielding you and 5 Group Members (if in range wich is pretty high). Additionly you also restore Stamina. That Skill is a perfect example for an Ability that is only really effective on Tank Builds(Dps Builds never get this skill to a usefull level). It also opens up the possibility to go for a High HP Build since the Shield increases for you and your allies the higher your health gets and can be further boosted by Bastion.

Non Dk Tanks
- Bone Shield
Our only option to shield allies compared to Obsidian Shield.
Bone shield has a few drawbacks that just make it totaly inferior to Obsidian, those are:

- Requires 1 Ally to press the Synergy so that you and 3 allies get shieled.
- Limited usage due to the Synergy Cooldown.
- Range is way to small (think its 5 meters, wich is worse, cause most bosses are so big, that an ally only get the chance to use the synergie if they stack with you)

Possible Solution:
- Get rid of the Synergy (or make the synergy do a special bonus but dont make it necessary to activate the shield in the first place)
- Raise the range equal to Obsidian (around 10-12 meters)
- make the shield allies get a fixed value (6k would be perfect)or let it scale with casters health(allies get 50% of the shield value the caster gets.
Shield strenght for caster is still based on 30% of your health as before.
- Shield needs to apply to the Caster and 5 allies
- 1 Stam Morph/ 1 Magicka Morph to give also Magicka Based tanks an option to shield their group since they mostly conserve their stam for break free/dodge/block.

With this solution they are equal to dk tanks, IF the dk decides to only stay at 30k health. If Dk Tank decides to go for full group shield build via high hp and bastion cp, he has a unique advantage over the other classes wich is needed.


Ressource Management
Dragonknight
I think we can agree that Dk´s have the best ressource sustain on a Tank focused build. Earthen Heart skills return 990 Stam on each use of a skill in that skillline. Battleroar, even it has been nerfed, provide them with the best ressourcemanagement while blocking constantly. They can also if done right basicly almost never ever run out of ressources if they use a, lets call it rotation of
Equilibrium (mages guild skill) and Obsidian shield. You may argue that Equilibrium will cost you health, but due to all the overhealing in ESO you are hardly ever gonna notice it. You can do all of that while still holding block. So overall as a Tank Build nice Management.

Sorcerer
Basicly they have due to Dark Deal/Dark Exchange better ressource on demand management than a dk can ever achieve. Sure you have top drop block to use it effectively, but every boss in the game has a wide enough time frame where you can do that without ever risking to get hit by the Boss. Works in every Trial/Dungeon, just have to get used to the Enemy´s Attack patterns.
Also a super candidate for using Equilibrium, if u can play with a bit of foresight u cast equilibrium to get Magicka back, and wait 4 seconds after that you cast dark deal and you can also recover the health lost +additional health and a sick chunk of Stam.

Since Dark Deal is still totaly strong you should consider a rework so that the skill gives the ressources back over lets say 10seconds. Would bring it more in line with other ressource restoration skills.

Templar
Oh boy........make shards restore on synergy use also restore stam to the caster and add a 15sec cooldown to the restore thing for the caster. Nothing more to say. Ressource management basicly non existing besides Heavy attacking.

Nightblades
We once had siphoning strikes, and it got killed like nothing else before. The reworked version is kinda okayish but it needs additional tweaks as it basicly enforces you to use light attacks and has zero effect on heavy attacks. Believe me ZOS, every NB Tank, knows how and when to light attack weave.

Suggested tweaks:
- both morphs should return 200 stam/mag on light attack.
- both morphs should return 400 stam/mag on Heavy attack
- the heal should be at least tripled when using a heavy attack. (similar to the warden(he got a skill where la heals and ha attack heals for even more
and to encourage heavy attacking)
- heavy attacks should be executed 35% faster (similar to "Haste" we had in the beginning and to fit your vision of nb´s being fast and such.
- light/heavy attacks should proc "Soul Siphoner" as long as Siphoning Strikes & morphs is up and you are light/heavy attacking.


Thats it for the ressource management part.


Nightblade Tank suggestions

Summon Shade -> Dark Shades
You mentioned in the patch 3.0.5 Notes that NB Tanks use Path & Shades to keep a 100% uptime on Shadow Ward. Therefore i think you should add something to the Shades to make it a considerable choice compared to heroic slash (what almost all nb tanks use, since shades dont offer that much). Let me elaborate:

Shadow Ward can be kept up with path alone after the recent chanced to the passives duration wich was a huge improvement. Thanks for that. Here are my suggestion s to improve the Dark Shades and give Nb tanks something unique.

- Should apply minor main to max 3 enemys in a 5 meter radius (splashdmg type thing). Would be a must have change to make it a competitor to heroic/deep slash so nb tanks have something unique to them as u once said class skills should be something special.
- should either offer dmg mitigation for the caster or apply minor fracture/breach (to have a alternative to templers casting it). One of those two and the skill shoul be pretty fine.

Drain Power -> Power Extraction
As stated somewhere above, this skill should get a additional effect and that would be a max 4 seconds lasting slow to get a bit more of battlefield control. If u want to add a little bit more power to it (dmg is not worth mentioning as a tank) the skill could give wep/spell dmg to the group for a short period of time.

Those changes coupled with the change to silver leash & swarm mother would bring nb tanks up with a special flavor and would not make them to powerfull.

Nightblade Tank Synergyoptions for the group

Well the only synergys we can offer are tied to 2 of our 3 ultimate abilitys. The perfect candidate for a synergy would be path(shadow skill line). To do this you are free to remove the synergys from our 2 ultimates.

Veil of Blades should get a passive 8%dmg mitigation for being slotted. With the removal of the synergy this would make the skill worth more.



General Nightblade Suggestions

Grim Focus:
- Increase the duration by 4-5 seconds or let it be ready after 4 Light Attacks. That way you ensure we can fire 3 Spectral Arrows resulting in more dps wich NB needs a bit to get more in line with the other classes as Damge Dealer.

Mark Target:
- The perfect candidate to implement "minor stamina steal(returns 300 stam per attack)". That would give u the option to lessen the gap in the ability cost between mag and stam (stam actually 15% cheaper). In addition the skill should be available in a weapon skill line. Perfect candidate would be 2Hands Cleave Skill. This would encourage 2Handed as more of a support weapon since it would be too good if it was in the dw skill line.

Criple -> Debilitate: Make it a stammorph as it would fit the theme you see for Nightblades. Would also help stam nb dps to close the gap a bit. This idea was basicly posted for ages among the nb community.

Cloak & Morphs: oh boy.......can we have the skill work like in the old days? Wouldnt mind a cost increase like Streak has to prevent spamming.

Passives: since you said in eso live that you want nb´s to be sneaky, hard to catch and to pin down, "minor evasion" should be put in as a passive to fit your vision.


That was all i had in mind so far after all the playtime in ESO. I hope to see some constructive discussion about non dk tanks and if u have to add something for any class please post it in a easy to read and friendly manor, since flamming wont get us anywhere. I also like to see some moderator keep the thread clean and delete useless non constructive posts. Thanks a lot and have a nice day.

Ps: Wont be able to read for the next 2 weeks since i´m on vacation. Have a great day and enjoy playing.

Greets Actosh

Brrrofski

Thanks for the tag. I'm on Xbox so until Morrowind drops I don't have much to add sorry. Once I get on and start playing around I'll hit this thread up.

actosh

Awesome.

Anti_Virus

Nice post. Bump.

actosh

Thanks. I think ill link it to the general discussion so more ppl get to see it and can reply

aeowulf

What ZoS have stated and done have not exactly gone hand in and this update. They stated they wanted to keep all classes viable in all roles and yet the changes to siphoning attacks have removed NB's as viable tanks. By viable i am talking about tough content, but not necessarily end game hard mode trials.

I do like your idea's and would love to see them implemented but i can't see ZoS ever listening to anyone - the uproar on the PTS prior to the changes going live, gilliams video, there is another really good post in there too where RichLambert said it's the sort of content he likes to read, and yet it was still ignored.

Unfortunately, i've pretty much resigned myself to never tanking on my NB again, i'll complete DB and TG lines as i have already purchased them then will review how NB tanks stand. I'm hoping spell crafting comes in at some point and then hopefully classes removed in ESO as it seems they are wasting a lot of time trying to balance them and then it all goes horribly wrong anyway.

GallantGuardian

If they refuse to give each class similar abilities but are more open to changes in skill trees open to everyone ...my suggestions would be similar to yours in regards to bone shield etc.

However for like an aoe immobilize id like them to make a magicka version Of trap beast... take rearming trap remove the minor force it would receive pre morph and make this the point blank multi target immobilize anyone can use... or keep it stamina based that way talons is still better for dragon knights being as it would be a magika dump....

When it comes to the pull i like your idea with swarm mother being made for more of a tanking set... but if they refuse to do that then i want them to give us silver leash a viable pull and i dont think it should cost stamina twice to do it ... it should be one click then the add is on you .. as it is now you click it once to snare then again to lunge towards them ... it should be one click

Anastian

Posting to keep track, will read later

Rickter

please no.

The only things dragon knight has going for it are igneous shields (and its 2.5 sec major mending), helping hands passive and chains.

DKs have suffered nerf after nerf from DK Standard of Might to Dragon Blood that the class is nearly a complete shell of itself.

chains and igneous shields and the passive: helping hands literally defines this class. take any of those three away and you cant give me a good reason to play DK over any other class.

its about the choice. This isnt just a DK player defending his class, this goes for any class. Every class has a class defining feature. DKs have chains, igneous shields (and the 2.5sec major mending) and helping hands passive.

I would through battle roar in there too but every class has a resource replenishing feature and this is the DKs

aeowulf

Rickter wrote: »

please no.

The only things dragon knight has going for it are igneous shields (and its 2.5 sec major mending), helping hands passive and chains.

DKs have suffered nerf after nerf from DK Standard of Might to Dragon Blood that the class is nearly a complete shell of itself.

chains and igneous shields and the passive: helping hands literally defines this class. take any of those three away and you cant give me a good reason to play DK over any other class.

its about the choice. This isnt just a DK player defending his class, this goes for any class. Every class has a class defining feature. DKs have chains, igneous shields (and the 2.5sec major mending) and helping hands passive.

I would through battle roar in there too but every class has a resource replenishing feature and this is the DKs

loosing the helping hands passive is roughly the equivalent of loosing siphoning attacks. guess what NB's just lost... this thread is (in part) about trying to repair the damage to NB tanks that was just done. Were/are you shouting about NB's loosing their class defining siphoning strikes? not in this thread at least, even though you are mentioning defending any class defining abilities. So please put your money where your mouth is and start defending other classes.

Imagine if you just lost helping hands & battle roar - would you want some changes too? sounds like it. siphoning attacks acted passively, giving a 10% chance to get around 2k magicka & stamina back. this was COMPLETLY removed from the skill. Sustain was the ONLY thing NB's tanks had going for them, then just as it became important it was completely stripped from them. helping hands is a 100% chance of around 1k stamina. honestly all resource regen should of been removed from all classes if they didn't want it in the game, not just from NB. my DK even got a BUFF in resources returned from helping hands/battle roar... combined that with being able to dump over 50k of shields on himself every 4-5 seconds and 15k to every group member. a DK can EASILY perma block as can warden. An NB could but often struggled and was reliant on pots to top up when the RNG gods were unkind.

the complete lack of ability for any other class (except maybe warden) to be a viable tank now will also hurt group finder - you know the feature you spend an hour waiting for a tank in. They should of been boosting the number of classes that can tank well, not remove them. they should also be making the tank role a lot more attractive to players.

Rickter

@aeowulf

Hey man, apologies, but i dont recall giving siphoning strikes a hard time in another thread.

EDIT: oh i see what youre saying - yeah no not being a nightblade activist but to be perfectly honest with you - i only play one character. i have 209 days /played on my dk. i literally cannot tell you anything else about any other class. so if i dont advocate for other classes its because i literally cant speak for them. so i dont.

DK however, i will. and my opinion still stands - giving chains to other classes, i am against.

actosh

Thats why i said silver leash rework would be the not optimal solution.
A tweak to swarm mother(like i suggested in thiy thread would be the way the go for non dk tanks and still leave advantages to the dk to use another monster set. Swarm mother in ifs current status is just to unreliable.

Dks should keep major mending. I didnt stated anywhere that bone shield should get it.
Regarding bone shield, if u look from at it, it underperforms since it was introduced.

Devs gave other classes with the orb change a way to support the group as a healer. They will do the same to tanks at some point.

One last thing, even if these suggested changes would find their way into the game(not the leash rework but the SM tweak) Dks will still br best tanks but the gap between the classes in the tanking role would get smaller.

I hope we can have further discussion regarding that topic.

Have a nice day

aeowulf

The other morph of mass hystria could also be used for crowd control. A fear is nice but it does make everything run away from AE ground effects so is useless in most groups. The other morph could enrage the 3 enemies furthest from you to to run over and melee attack for 3 seconds. Downside being unlike chains you cannot target exactly the mob you want.

paulsimonps

OK, so OP msg'ed me asking for feedback on this thread so I will do my best.

As you said one of the biggest thing for non DK Tanks is the lack of a "Chain" and a lack of an AoE Root/Snare. This thread was done before the Warden was released so obviously that needs to be taken into account, since the Warden have both of these things. Regardless of that though, Silver leash was a skill talked about in terms of the "chain" but of course in its current state it does the opposite, it pulls YOU to THEM. I think making it be chains will be a good change, it won't out do Unrelenting Grip or Frozen Gate but will give those that don't have it, Sorcs, NB and Templars something to use.

Sadly it is Stamina though, and you have to active it twice for it to work, though I think if a change like that were to happen then it should have the same range as Unrelenting Grip. Frozen Gate is longer but you have to aim it and it has an arming time and it works a a trap so easy for moving targets to get out of it, so it has its negatives too. It would be too strong in PvP with that type of range when being a targeted skill and not an AoE like Frozen Gate. Swarm Mother is good as is with one exception, its 1p bonus is ***, its 1p bonus is canceled out whenever you try and activate its 2nd bonus. Cause its Stamina recovery, it doesn't help at all.

In terms of AoE Roots and Snares, Templars do have a snare and Sorcs do have a Root but Nightblades have neither. They do have their fear, and though it makes it easier to survive, it does not help when trying to stack things up to kill faster. I would suggest the Trap Morph of Aspect of Terror, Manifestation of Terror to be changed in such a way that the feared enemies do not move, making them instead simply cower in place, that along with nerfing the snare and I think it would be a really good skill to use in the manner we want tanks to use it in.

When it comes to group shields, Bone Shield is not all that bad, if it wasn't for the stupid way Synergies work. Both the morphs and the effect of bone shield is really good, you must have miss read what the synergy gives you, its 60% of the allies individual HP. An average DPS/Healer has around 17,000/18,000, even if we take the lowest number 60% of 17,000 is 10,200, and your suggestion was to have the shield be only 6k strong, which would make it weaker, when it does work... So ok, synergies have this problem, and this is a reaquring problem for all types of synergies, orbs most of all but bone shield just as much when used. It only shows the synergy promt to one player at a time and its only to the person closest to the point of origin, so when people move around a lot, or when the point of origin moves, it swaps between the players faster than people can activate it.

Make synergies always show for everyone in its radius and a lot of problems would be solves, then make the timer for the synergy of bone shield a little bit longer and we are good. That and make one of the morphs magicka I would say like you did. But that is all, its mostly about the synergy problem not the shield it self. That plus strong heals from NBs and you are good to go in that part of the support spectrum.

But its late at night so I can if you want OP continue to give more feedback on your suggestions later. But later for now and I hope you enjoyed my commentary.

actosh

Thanks for the feedback @paulsimonps

I need to go to work in ten minutes and i would like to read your opinion regarding the other things i mentioned in this thread.


Regarding Swarm Mother i suggested to rework the 1 & 2piece bonus to this

1: armor&spellresist
2: when using taunt (inner fire) pull the targeted enemy to you. 1 sec cooldown.
+max health

That way we wouldnt need to change silver leash into a pull.

Thx and have a nice day.

paulsimonps

actosh wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback @paulsimonps

I need to go to work in ten minutes and i would like to read your opinion regarding the other things i mentioned in this thread.


Regarding Swarm Mother i suggested to rework the 1 & 2piece bonus to this

1: armor&spellresist
2: when using taunt (inner fire) pull the targeted enemy to you. 1 sec cooldown.
+max health

That way we wouldnt need to change silver leash into a pull.

Thx and have a nice day.

The problem I have with changing Swarm Mother in such a way and not touch Silver Leash would be that it would require people to give up a 2p Monster set to do something that 2 other classes can do with out a 2p set. As well that 2p set would be more powerful than Unrelenting Grip and Frozen Gate since it is linked to taunting, the others are not. Leave Swarm Mother as is and change silver leash instead. Making the universal chain that all can get, not to OP and not too useless, and most importantly accessible by all in an easy to get fashion.

actosh

I would support that idea as well.
Maybe Zos will show some love in the future

aeowulf

actosh wrote: »

Maybe Zos will show some love in the future

I don't think they know what to do with NB, hence the delay in 'having a look at them'. i'm also a bit worried that when they do, they ignore both NB tanks that still play the class, um bit of an assumption there are still two left tbh.

They were once great single target, but combined with stealth made them pvp one shotters, which no one liked. They should of probably just made 'wear heavy, you are immune to crit/stealth damage' and just made the incoming/outgoing damage redux on it massive to compensate. The knights of old were basically tanks - that armour can take a serious pounding. I always liked the tank> rogue > mage > tank theory, but ESO has healers to fit in there somewhere too so...

I really hope they find a direction for NB, the continual changes to bring down the burst damage in pvp has never met with an adjustment to keep their pve equal to other classes. I hope they return the sustain to NB, they went from the best to worst overnight, the adjustments to the other classes were not in line with the adjustments to siphoning, and yet our other non-sustain abilities were not adjusted to compensate either. Getting the balance right has to be a very tough thing, i can't even imagine how it can be done either. I think spell crafting might help, but then i think passive are going to be tough to balance.

There have been some amazing threads on the forum, with many great ideas for NB. It's rare they are even acknowledged, but then the community will jump down the 'you promised xxx' route so i can also understand why they aren't.

The issue i have right now with NB tanking is it is SO much work, it is simply not fun anymore. I wouldn't mind if the amount of work you have to put in was in some way measured by how powerful they were, but it's not. the 'work/effectiveness at tanking' ratio is not there anymore. I've spent the last month doing pretty much nothing but crafting writs, selling stuff on the broker and buying recipes with any gold I make. That's not going to keep me playing forever. On the plus side, I ( actually 'we' as my gf stopped playing a lot too) have managed to do so much decorating and maintenance round the house it's almost looking like a new place!

Doctordarkspawn

Nice post. SHame it'll be ignored like all PTS feedback and suggestions.

PS4_ZeColmeia

I don't disagree with your concepts but I think you are slightly off on some of the NB solutions. For reference, I've played mageblade, stamblade, and hybrid on a single NB character since PS4 launch. I have almost 340 skill points and I literally do EVERYTHING on this one character. Let me go though a few concepts you touched on and my thought.

Chains equivalent:
Swarm Mother Set: I agree.

Silver Leash: I actually like the idea of this becoming a skill based chains version, but I would do it to silver shards. Some people prefer sets changes and therefore would keep silver leash as a gap closer. On the other hand some would prefer to keep their current sets and do "chains" as a through a skill they could put on their bar. Modifying shards to be a pull and putting a change into swarm mother allows people to have that flexibility without having to change morphs anytime they change roles.

Other skill changes in Undaunted:
Trapping webs: this needs to have 2 morphs (1) shadow silk - no change, (2) Tangling webs - remove the synergy that provides a fear and replace it with a "no synergy required" root with the same range as the DK root. This change to tangling webs allows all classes to have access to a root and makes one of the least taken skills in the game worthwhile.

NB changes:
Siphoning strikes: I don't think it needs adjustment but I do think skills like Sap essence need cost adjustment. Part of what made this skill useful was the 10% chance return on damage. With the changes, this is not a strategic skill to help keep the healer up. While the ice staff changes are welcome for mage and hybrid builds, it means that sap is no longer a great option while tank, this is because either you drain your magicka too quickly to block with the ice staff or you have to switch to either lightning/resto/1h&S to recover magicka. Additionally you can't use the ice staff to recover magicka because too many heavy attacks risks over taunting the boss. Another fix is to not allow ice staff taunts to over taunt the boss but that might be too big of a mechanics change to taunt.

Grim focus: agree but prefer 4 strikes, it takes too long when weaving to get the firing which makes it clunky again unless you want to spam light attack. 4 strikes may seem too fast if people spam the skill, but it works perfectly for weaving which is how most of us have used it in the past.

Path: it would be nice to have the bonus movement speed last 1 second longer. This, especially to magicka based tanks, is how we get the equivalent to the 1h&S passive "battlefield mobility" while using ice staff, and makes stamina NB tanks unique in walking around like normal speed. This is not a change to our function with the skill, but helps with getting around big bosses while blocking especially when the refreshing path morph is taken.

Shades/Shadow Image: Shades is what I consider the tanking version of the skill while Shadow would be the DPS. Neither is really doing anything great. I think for the splash main, it would be nice if it functioned similar to the destructive mage set where the shades put the maim "bomb" on the target, and Heavy Attacks (only) blow it up. This makes it a bit strategic, and less of a cheese in PvP. Shadow image needs to be based on spell damage and magicka instead of just magicka like normal magicka skills. It's doesn't justify the slot.

Power extraction: I'm fine with the suggested snare as it gives a stamina alternative to lotus fan.

Mark target: I don't agree. It negates cost balance between magicka and stamina. If the costs for magicka are adjusted down across the board then I agree, but I don't support that either.

Debilitate: Agree

Agony: remove the root and make it a ranged off balance. This will synergize with nb passives and do a lot to increase nb DPS. DW has access to off balance, and melee range NB have access to veiled strike to induce off balance. Unfortunately, mageblades playing at range only can access off balance via lightning staff and only if it procs. This effectively means mageblades have a non-working passive unless they choose to negate the value of using a staff which is range. Absolutely no problem with giving it the same mechanic as veiled strike by giving it the same requirement of setting the enemy off balanced ONLY when launched from range.

Cloak: a slight cost reduction and it suppressing all DOTs (including heals from Vicecannon) consistently would be welcome.

Passive change: don't agree with minor expedition as a passive. I do suggest removing the minor fracture in surprise attack and giving the same movement bonus that concealed weapon has. Push all of the debuff to mark target and give stamina the same mobility as magicka.

Hemmorage: let it affect self as well as allies

____________________
Other suggestion:
Make carnage from Khajiit affect spell crit chance as well as weapon crit.

actosh

Thx for all the opinions guys.

@ZOS_RichLambert
@Wrobel

Ladislao

Interesting post. But it is not so easy to change cause It can hurt other archetypes.

Also, where is warden? Some love for him pls

crobarXIII

Chains/Pulling targets
Like others have said Swarm Mother 1pc bonus needs some work. I think this 1pc bonus should be both magicka & stamina recovery (like how kena increases both weapon & spell dmg so both mag & stam dps can utilize it). This would allow both SnB & ice staff tanks the ability to use this set & benefit from the 1 pc bonus.

I agree that silver leash should be reverted to pulling the target. But chances are I won't use it unless the ability cost magicka. For this reason I would just prefer the change I recommended above to swarm mother & just swap my monster set to it in fights with a lot of ranged trash that needs to be pulled in.

AoE Crowd Control
Templars have a large aoe snare. What they lack is an aoe immobilize or stun. Since they have such a large snare I think a short stun would work better. For this stun I think one of the sun shield morphs could be change to stun & no longer dmg. Now the NB needs a lot of help here, we have no way of rooting or stunning multiple enemies in place. Maybe making changes to rarely used skills like manifestation of terror or agony could help.

Abilities that scale off health
The NB tank has in my opinion the worst abilities that scale off health, they are both the heals from mark & assassin's blade. I know some will disagree with this but I think that maybe the healing from refreshing path & one of the strife morphs should scale of health.

Bone shield is great but I would really like a magicka morph

aeowulf

Ladislao wrote: »

Interesting post. But it is not so easy to change cause It can hurt other archetypes.

Also, where is warden? Some love for him pls

Only as much as giving other classes (DK meta tank & templar meta healer for example) access to the DPS archetype. There were no complaints there, not even from the NB/sorc who logically would hold that DPS archetype position.

You cannot have one without the other, else you create complete imbalance in roles. ZoS have stated many times they want all classes to be able to do everything. Right now there are only two* really viable all round tank classes for hard trial content, the DK & warden. A DK can also easily fill end game trial DPS spot which puts them in a very strong position. I don't know if it's still true, but a NB was filling around 10% of end game trial spots (pre Morrowind). That's a pretty low number...

On a positive note, I think this is actually the first patch where NB have not been 'balanced down'. They were completely skipped, no mention at all.

& the love for wardens is in another thread!

*I bow to the superior tank knowledge of @Woeler about this!

Tasear

Awe gald to see a champion for non meta tanks!

At last the champion non-meta healers as to step in, and say a few things.

Bone shield is useful for more reasons you accommodating for in your text. First it's a synery giving 2 ult with correct champion passive to allies. Also gives resources 4% to all main resources It procs with synergy set. I do think the dk shields are overpeforming with health tanks... and I am one. Also let us not forget one shield returns damage to mobs.

I would support giving more ultimate per synery usage. Also a buff to undaunted command.

Templars Resource management

There's repetence still for resources.

P.S what about the wardens?

actosh

@Tasear when i was writing my feedback (took me couple days, cause i need to take care of my 8month old daughter) warden was still under nda so i couldnt post anythong regarding warden.

I can add it in of course

FlyingFigNewton

I agree with this whole heartedly. I'm a Templar tank and I literally get people questioning why I'm tanking in dungeons, or just get booted for being a Templar and not a DK before I even get a chance to prove myself. Albeit that's the case, I've never built a DK, but considering I love tanking so much this thread has me convinced I should make one lol.

actosh

Any news for us @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

Gan Xing

A few pointers on Warden


CHAINING ENEMIES IN
Frost Gate and morphs
This is OK... not excellent, and I personally don't use it for my tank, as it only brings one enemy in at a time, and takes a while to cast...

Crowd Control
It has a few abilities that help with CC.
Impaling shards and morphs - Good slow and dot
Sleet Storm and morphs - even better slow and damage mitigation
Deep Fissure - 1 target stun with good damage (honestly, not great for dealing with large mobs)

Resource management
Wardens have excellent abilities for resource management
Enchanted growth (budding seeds morph) - increases you and everyone in cone resource recovery by 10%
Betty Netch (and morphs) also provides stam/magicka (based on morph) even while blocking
Falcon's swiftness and morphs - more stamina recovery

Group shields

this is more like damage mitigation
Frost Cloak - only 8% for group, but it helps
Sleet Storm and morphs - yea... 30% damage reduction....

On a side note, with a good build, a Warden can keep themselves alive with the following skills
Arctic Wind and morphs (not fantastic, and arctic blast helps while dealing some damage to close enemies - tho seeing the range that the damage is hitting would be helpful)
All skills in the Green Balance skill line - Straight up heals in here


Warden's are great for main tanks or offhand tanks. I've been able to be the tank for one of the vet HotR dungeons, and while I didn't have the best tanking gear, I got through it.

Gan Xing

I also want to point out that all the other classes had their tanking abilities nerfed by a bit...

DK Shields were nerfed to only provide major mending during duration of how long the shield lasted (suggest running other shields with it

Templar repentance nerfed as well... I think ZOS gave their answer by nerfing tanks

aeowulf

Gan Xing wrote: »

I also want to point out that all the other classes had their tanking abilities nerfed by a bit...

DK Shields were nerfed to only provide major mending during duration of how long the shield lasted (suggest running other shields with it

Templar repentance nerfed as well... I think ZOS gave their answer by nerfing tanks

erm, my DK tank restored MORE stamina from helping hands after the change than he did prior to it. He also has never PVP'd so does not have vigor, so the healing made no change to him.

Aeo