ZoS Devs, take note on what you have done & Fix it.

The_Undefined

I completely agree. I actually unsubscribed over this. I spent hours trying to really specifically address the issues with these changes to sustain on the PTS forum, and I feel so utterly defeated after seeing how no input I made mattered with much of an affect the patch has on the game in live.

I saw 2 purposes for their changes; 1. Raise the floor and lower the ceiling and 2. This game's combat has no cooldowns and is action packed, so sustain is the balance.

1. I am the floor.. shoot, I'm probably below the floor - I do not feel any more powerful or on a level playing field with those that are the 'ceiling.' I feel so much more incredibly weaker than I ever have playing this game now. I can barely hold my own at this point with regular monsters. Sure, there are a lot of variables, but the biggest change between me playing in the past and now are the subsequent patches in between. My hits are so much weaker on all of my characters, my resources are garbage, and I generally don't understand the effectiveness of my skills anymore. Not to mention, now i have nothing to look forward to. Progression meant things got easier, but seeing as how they want to make the 'ceiling' comparable to where I am now.. it just looks like I'm going to suck in this game no matter what.

2. Balancing the battle gameplay mechanics in this game with resources is NOT fun. I'm not going to pay and invest time in a game that isn't fun. If I wanted to worry about auto-attacking, I'd go back and play a game that is over 10yrs old (FFXI, Vanilla WoW, EQ, etc). We've moved on from auto-attack, and essentially that's what they've done with the resource management. You have to auto-attack now. Why? This game was made without it, so why force us to do that manually? It isn't fun. I want challenge, but not with worrying over how many auto-attacks I need to plug in. I don't want a rotation that depends on me being a robot. I want effective and unique skills to vanquish foes - that's the point.

Again, I've pointed these out numerous times, but I just feel so incredibly disenfranchised by this development team. It's so incredibly disheartening. Sure, other MMO dev teams ignore their players, but they're focus on the game is in a much better direction than this one.

Also, the expansion is incredible, the game is the best out there imo on the MMO field. The attention to detail is unsurpassed... but playing the game itself is a chore and that's such a super bummer.

mechengr7

The_Undefined wrote: »

Also, the expansion is incredible, the game is the best out there imo on the MMO field. The attention to detail is unsurpassed... but playing the game itself is a chore and that's such a super bummer.

Pretty much sums up how I feel. It's a chore now to engage in combat. I literally got my skill points back and have been farming mats and exploring the new area, avoiding mobs as much as I can... *sigh*.

Alphaa

Adapt like everyone else.

The_Undefined

Alphaa wrote: »

Adapt like everyone else.

I totally agree, but after adapting after every single patch is exhausting. That would be like purchasing a ticket to a horror movie, then in the first 30mins it being a comedy, then another 30mins a drama, then another 30mins you realize the rest of the film is twilight. Maybe the very basis of resource management isn't bad, but trying to adapt and keep up after finding a really fun and interesting place to be just gets old after a while. That's a personal problem though, and I agree that the solution is just to move with the flow; however, I don't like it, and that's kind of the point of these forums XD

Phinix1

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

I like the sustain reductions.

Makes ya think some in PvE

I disagree. Adding artificial difficulty or tedium is never a good way to spice up combat. Having to worry about positioning, dodging, MECHANICS, that sort of thing makes combat more fun and interesting.

Having to hold down my attack button for 2 seconds like a derp every other kill doesn't add anything fun or interesting but tedium, and the only think it has made me "think" so far is "OMG this is really freaking stupid."

ookami007

Akimbro wrote: »

Believe me, they know.

We know. They are too pig headed to do what REALLY needs to be done.

Either:

1) Split PvP and PvE into separate severs, balance each as needed.
2) Each item/skill/ability needs to have 2 tabs, a PvP tab and a PvE tab. Balance each separately both together.

I've said it before, but until they admit the TRUTH they are stuck in a no win situation. PVP AND PVE CAN NOT, EVER BE BALANCED. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION. DEBATE OVER.

The dynamics are COMPLETELY different. Look at 99.9999999% of every build ever published... ANYWHERE... it's either a PvE build or a PvP build. A cross PvE/PvP build (one that actually works) is like a Aetheric Cipher... we've heard they exist, but only a few people have ever seen them.

You cannot balance them. Trying is an exercise in futile insanity. It's like trying to look at oranges and apples, and try to make them the same. They aren't the same. They'll never be the same. When you try to tell people they ARE the same, they think you are crazy.

Just stop. Break them apart, balance them separately. Then we can move on.

goldenarcher1

I really hate the bow-heavy attack-auto-fire.

Cloudless

Gotta love how every single even marginally positive post in this tread has been dismissed as "shilling".

ProfesseurFreder

Oh for gods sake get over it.

Waffennacht

I gonna shill right here, maybe shill over there.

I don't know what shill means.

I know what chill means...

It's exactly what I'm doing till I can try Morrowind

Code2501

@Styxiii Since you asked, I actually like the cp changes. My character is dealling more damage now with the direct damage star and i'm having no sustain problems.

Iluvrien

ookami007 wrote: »

Akimbro wrote: »

Believe me, they know.

We know. They are too pig headed to do what REALLY needs to be done.

Either:

1) Split PvP and PvE into separate severs, balance each as needed.
2) Each item/skill/ability needs to have 2 tabs, a PvP tab and a PvE tab. Balance each separately both together.

I've said it before, but until they admit the TRUTH they are stuck in a no win situation. PVP AND PVE CAN NOT, EVER BE BALANCED. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION. DEBATE OVER.

The dynamics are COMPLETELY different. Look at 99.9999999% of every build ever published... ANYWHERE... it's either a PvE build or a PvP build. A cross PvE/PvP build (one that actually works) is like a Aetheric Cipher... we've heard they exist, but only a few people have ever seen them.

You cannot balance them. Trying is an exercise in futile insanity. It's like trying to look at oranges and apples, and try to make them the same. They aren't the same. They'll never be the same. When you try to tell people they ARE the same, they think you are crazy.

Just stop. Break them apart, balance them separately. Then we can move on.

This point applies just as much to competitive vs. casual PvE.

Suggestion 2 has some merit, but I would like to extend it to three tabs: PvP, PvE (overland), PvE (endgame).

If a nerf isn't caused by PvP then it is caused by endgame PvE. We've seen plenty of both.

Please ZOS, create a base set of abilities, then layer on top of these a buff/nerf effect as soon as a player enters a PvP or PvE endgame area (trials etc.). That way ZOS can balance PvP and PvE separately, and it also separates overland from endgame.

TL;DR - Please ZOS, get your competitive play nerfs out of my casual gaming experience.

Doctordarkspawn

Waffennacht wrote: »

I gonna shill right here, maybe shill over there.

I don't know what shill means.

I know what chill means...

It's exactly what I'm doing till I can try Morrowind

From the internet:

an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.

Essentially, acting as good publicity for personal gain, whether or not that be personal, monitary or otherwise. It's a nice way of saying 'your a fanboy', which most people unconditionally shouting these are great changes are.

Most dont make arguements aside from the same old 'adapt' line which we can disprove. It is shilling. Nothing more.

LiquidPony

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »

It's Fine, Learn to Play

Adapt and Overcome

Just because easymode got turned off doesn't mean the game is now broken


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDMB-Bi27XQ

Go shill somewhere else.

@Doctordarkspawn

"Everyone who disagrees with me is a shill!"

That's you.

Anyway, I hated the first PTS patch notes. Logged on to v3.0.0, hated it. But after a month or so now ... I kind of like it. Like others have said, it's not how I would have gone about correcting power creep, but, in the end I believe this patch is going to allow more diversity among builds and gear and CP and DPS rotations.

It's really not that big of a change IMO. Re-spec CP and throw in some heavy attacks and carry on as normal.

DMuehlhausen

-PvE sustain is gone, you ruined it, all for what? PvP there is only 1 CP camp now so there was no point in even changing CP. Revert it back, and turn the trees back, no one likes it and anyone who does, I'd like to hear why.

Stopped after that.

It's a good thing sustain is gone. No other MMO were able to just go through entire dungeons (solo on Vet) or in a group and never slow down. It's not how the games are designed.

Flipping feel lucky you aren't having to rest 5 minutes after every solo mob like in EQ. You kill a Mammoth, or Giant (maybe 2 or 3 depending on your class) then you are sitting for 5-10 minutes working on your compass that doesn't point your direction till you max it out.

My god will the crying never stop!

Doctordarkspawn

LiquidPony wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »

It's Fine, Learn to Play

Adapt and Overcome

Just because easymode got turned off doesn't mean the game is now broken


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDMB-Bi27XQ

Go shill somewhere else.

@Doctordarkspawn

"Everyone who disagrees with me is a shill!"

That's you.

Anyway, I hated the first PTS patch notes. Logged on to v3.0.0, hated it. But after a month or so now ... I kind of like it. Like others have said, it's not how I would have gone about correcting power creep, but, in the end I believe this patch is going to allow more diversity among builds and gear and CP and DPS rotations.

It's really not that big of a change IMO. Re-spec CP and throw in some heavy attacks and carry on as normal.

No, the people parroting the same line over, and over, and over with no actual arguement, point, or purpose besides trying to drown out the opposition are shills. Their not interested in a conversation so I'm not going to bother trying to set one up. Classic example is the "Adapt or leave" crew.

Also, if we're here about correcting power creep, fine. Personally, I'm even fine with the changes if their treated like a stat crunch, ajusted, and the content ajusted with it to create a better experence. But it usually isn't, and we know that. ZOS is famous for not doing crap with our feedback so I'm not gonna hold my breath. (Remember all the people who said "It's only first week of PTS"? Yeah. How soon we forget. But build diversity? Nah. Nah s'not. In fact alot of people are having to fall in line more as the result of this patch.


This is the crux of the issue: ZOS lisened to the people who hated sustain, or rather, hated the power creep and decided to use the same heavy hand they used before. It dosent work. The game needs carefull attention and care, not a iron fist. They keep doing things without realizing their actions have consequences. (Insert meme here.) They remove sustain, and dont edit the content to match. Likely, this nerf will be met with similar heavy handed nerfs to content where they think is a problem, and nothing will truely get done. Just a continuing cycle of nerfs and or buffs that do nothing but cause more problems due to the lack of real direction or vision.

@LiquidPony

phbell

Ruined PvE, but with all the people pissed off and leaving maybe the performance will improve.

Doctordarkspawn

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

-PvE sustain is gone, you ruined it, all for what? PvP there is only 1 CP camp now so there was no point in even changing CP. Revert it back, and turn the trees back, no one likes it and anyone who does, I'd like to hear why.

Stopped after that.

It's a good thing sustain is gone. No other MMO were able to just go through entire dungeons (solo on Vet) or in a group and never slow down. It's not how the games are designed.

Flipping feel lucky you aren't having to rest 5 minutes after every solo mob like in EQ. You kill a Mammoth, or Giant (maybe 2 or 3 depending on your class) then you are sitting for 5-10 minutes working on your compass that doesn't point your direction till you max it out.

My god will the crying never stop!

I beg to differ with the 'no other game does this' bit. Nah. They do. Trust me, they do. Their just not games that I, suspect, you'd like overmuch.

Draxius82

Let's ask ourselves a question. Who has more invested in this game, players or the company? I personally would not want to pay for and play a game where a large community calls the shots.

Morgul667

Played for the first time since update last night. I didnt enjoy it,

I will see if times and getting accustomed to the new playing style make it fun again. I sure hope so. But I didnt enjoy playing the game last night.

HatchetHaro

Going through the changes and hours upon hours of testing, building, theorycrafting, acquiring gear, and more testing, I've realized that I'm wasting my time. Nothing's going to make heavy attacks fun. Nothing's going to make it enjoyable. You can't heavy attack your way back into fun because heavy attacks are clunky, boring, annoying, and are just the exact opposite of fun. Combat feels slow and clunky, my damage is 80% of what it once was, sustain is completely gone, and trying to do content now feels like a chore.

ZOS is adamant on not listening to community feedback on the changes. They insist on digging themselves deeper into the hole they've created by trying to keep PvE and PvP consistent, even though it's common sense that PvE and PvP are two entirely different entities that should be treated separately. They insist on more cash grabs; well guess what, *** their cash grabs; I'm stopping my flow of money to them. Watch them cash-grab their way out of that.

darjobuno

It sounds like a lot of the OP cookie cutter PvP builds that people were using were finally brought back down to the real world.

Myself I am not having any sustainability issues and I am enjoying my new build I am attempting so far.

I noted the change in CP where the bow was lumped in with melee weapons. I wonder if that means that melee skills that never used to enhance bows will now have a positive effect on bow damage. I personally never understood why things were divided into melee, magic, and bow.

I hear a lot of crying going on and I get it.

I've cried for 3 years about how mobs who never see you fire your weapon know exactly where to go to attack you when your in stealth. How you can't re-enter stealth after casting cloak of shadows and move away from battle.

I cried when I had to pay $3000.00 for a serious gaming system so I could try to compete in PvP and at least see how I died. Only to be able to watch someone come out of a door and complete 5 attacks in 2 seconds killing 6 vet players without having a single attack placed upon them. So I get the frustration.

Is it really a "FUN" game when there are only about 3 builds that are actually able to compete in PvP?

Is it a fun game when players abuse certain skills that kill cinema?

Is it a fun game when people use special devices allowing them to perform multiple attacks at once?

To me any changes that were made to create some simulation of balance in PvP were steps in the right direction. I am sorry if some of you are having to actually think about strategies and tactics now to play in PvP rather than looking up the most OP build and spamming that build.

LiquidPony

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »

It's Fine, Learn to Play

Adapt and Overcome

Just because easymode got turned off doesn't mean the game is now broken


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDMB-Bi27XQ

Go shill somewhere else.

@Doctordarkspawn

"Everyone who disagrees with me is a shill!"

That's you.

Anyway, I hated the first PTS patch notes. Logged on to v3.0.0, hated it. But after a month or so now ... I kind of like it. Like others have said, it's not how I would have gone about correcting power creep, but, in the end I believe this patch is going to allow more diversity among builds and gear and CP and DPS rotations.

It's really not that big of a change IMO. Re-spec CP and throw in some heavy attacks and carry on as normal.

No, the people parroting the same line over, and over, and over with no actual arguement, point, or purpose besides trying to drown out the opposition are shills. Their not interested in a conversation so I'm not going to bother trying to set one up. Classic example is the "Adapt or leave" crew.

Also, if we're here about correcting power creep, fine. Personally, I'm even fine with the changes if their treated like a stat crunch, ajusted, and the content ajusted with it to create a better experence. But it usually isn't, and we know that. ZOS is famous for not doing crap with our feedback so I'm not gonna hold my breath. (Remember all the people who said "It's only first week of PTS"? Yeah. How soon we forget. But build diversity? Nah. Nah s'not. In fact alot of people are having to fall in line more as the result of this patch.


This is the crux of the issue: ZOS lisened to the people who hated sustain, or rather, hated the power creep and decided to use the same heavy hand they used before. It dosent work. The game needs carefull attention and care, not a iron fist. They keep doing things without realizing their actions have consequences. (Insert meme here.) They remove sustain, and dont edit the content to match. Likely, this nerf will be met with similar heavy handed nerfs to content where they think is a problem, and nothing will truely get done. Just a continuing cycle of nerfs and or buffs that do nothing but cause more problems due to the lack of real direction or vision.

@LiquidPony

@Doctordarkspawn

I don't understand how anyone could possibly think that Morrowind could be worse for diversity than what we have now.

Right now the meta is basically: magicka DPS use BSW + IA/Moondancer, lay down DoTs, spam LA/spammable, drop Destro Ults. Stamina DPS use TFS + VO/Alkosh, lay down DoTs, spam LA/Rapid Strikes. Healers all run SPC/IA/Worm/Mending. Everyone uses the same CP loadouts. Tanks run Ebon + Alkosh + Bloodspawn. Last patch it was: everyone uses TBS + VO/Alkosh/IA/Moondancer.

Trials groups are 7 magsorcs, 1 magDK (2 for MoL, maybe none for other Trials), 2 templar healers, 2 DK tanks. No stam builds, no magblades, and even magplars are hard to find at this point.

Already we're seeing "BiS" builds (from Alcast and other theorycrafters) running War Maiden on magplars, Silks of the Sun on magDKs, Scathing on magblades (and hey, magblades look viable this patch!), and Necro on sorcs. Some classes (NBs, Templars) use a class spammable, some switch over to heavy attacks. The four existing classes are all using a different 5-piece and running very different rotations.

Alcast's stamplar build is using 2H weapon with Bone Pirate's Tatters and Dubious Camoran Throne food. People are using an Infused DW weapon. Jeckll and others are running War Machine on stamblades and switching to Surprise Attack instead of Rapid Strikes. StamDKs are running pure heavy attack builds. Cheap class ultis are viable over Destro Ult/Meteor/Rend to synergize with the new Major Slayer sets. Tanks actually have to be tanky instead of running medium armor. Players are running some recovery enchants and poisons in PvE.

I see more interesting theorycrafting going on right now than I've seen in a long, long time.

I also find the "ZOS listened to people who hate sustain" narrative funny, particularly when combined with "ZOS doesn't listen to player feedback." That seems a little contradictory. Personally I think ZOS looked at data and saw that the game wasn't playing quite how they intended it to play.

I don't really like using heavy attacks, but we'll get used to it, and in the end I think the holistic view of these changes looks pretty positive. There's still some tweaking that needs to be done but I'm glad they did something because the game was getting stale and easy, even if some people don't want to admit it.

KochDerDamonen

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

I like the sustain reductions.

Makes ya think some in PvE

Not really. Alll it really does is make you wait for someone to put together the next meta build and then copy that.

Shill somewhere else.

@DoctorDarkspawn lelele corporate shills, gd sheep *circlejerks*
>assuming I use build guides

Obviously I shill when I tell all of my friends to steer clear of this game. Constant server issues, rng loot crates and cash shop spam, strongest endgame weapons coming from dlc solo grindfest, 80% of crafted sets being nigh useless but they still shuffle out motifs to get that good ol' collecting itch scratched, almost no bugs get hotfixed and most of them that do end up showing again later, cheap asses using an outdated engine and allowing people to get away with hex edits.

Definitely a 'shill' though, because haha this guy has a different opinion on some stat/effect changes. Well memed. There's no reason to act like there's mystical groups of people that you can just assume others are part of when you disagree with them, you know. All it does is increase collective salt levels and convince people that things are not worth discussing or arguing over.

vamp_emily

Did I miss something in the patch notes, because there is something wrong with my templar.

Yesterday ( the first time using my templar after the update ) I was spamming BoL during a fight and I noticed that I constantly stopped moving for a a short period of time.

example:
[bol] [ character stops moving ] [ bol ] [ bol ] [ character stops moving ]

It seemed like I could not execute BoL while moving ( very annoying ). I don't think i stopped moving every time I hit the button but it happened enough times to think something was wrong with my character.

Galwylin

Well, I was liking where PvE was myself. I wasn't godly or anything but I was doing pretty well for myself. My fun factor was higher than it had ever been. And I'd even have a little understanding if there was some new mechanic being introduced with Morrowind but its really no different play wise than the old. I know this was meant to address some kind of play style but it wasn't mine unless they really got mad I soloed Spindleclutch 1 (2 I couldn't). I've died on my warden three times in a row to a delve boss which hasn't happen since I changed my nightblade to magicka. I'm not sure how this improved anything for the majority. Oh, I know some love it. Must be more of people like them than me. Plus my money just doesn't spend the same so I get it.

Doctordarkspawn

LiquidPony wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »

It's Fine, Learn to Play

Adapt and Overcome

Just because easymode got turned off doesn't mean the game is now broken


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDMB-Bi27XQ

Go shill somewhere else.

@Doctordarkspawn

"Everyone who disagrees with me is a shill!"

That's you.

Anyway, I hated the first PTS patch notes. Logged on to v3.0.0, hated it. But after a month or so now ... I kind of like it. Like others have said, it's not how I would have gone about correcting power creep, but, in the end I believe this patch is going to allow more diversity among builds and gear and CP and DPS rotations.

It's really not that big of a change IMO. Re-spec CP and throw in some heavy attacks and carry on as normal.

No, the people parroting the same line over, and over, and over with no actual arguement, point, or purpose besides trying to drown out the opposition are shills. Their not interested in a conversation so I'm not going to bother trying to set one up. Classic example is the "Adapt or leave" crew.

Also, if we're here about correcting power creep, fine. Personally, I'm even fine with the changes if their treated like a stat crunch, ajusted, and the content ajusted with it to create a better experence. But it usually isn't, and we know that. ZOS is famous for not doing crap with our feedback so I'm not gonna hold my breath. (Remember all the people who said "It's only first week of PTS"? Yeah. How soon we forget. But build diversity? Nah. Nah s'not. In fact alot of people are having to fall in line more as the result of this patch.


This is the crux of the issue: ZOS lisened to the people who hated sustain, or rather, hated the power creep and decided to use the same heavy hand they used before. It dosent work. The game needs carefull attention and care, not a iron fist. They keep doing things without realizing their actions have consequences. (Insert meme here.) They remove sustain, and dont edit the content to match. Likely, this nerf will be met with similar heavy handed nerfs to content where they think is a problem, and nothing will truely get done. Just a continuing cycle of nerfs and or buffs that do nothing but cause more problems due to the lack of real direction or vision.

@LiquidPony

@Doctordarkspawn

I don't understand how anyone could possibly think that Morrowind could be worse for diversity than what we have now.

Right now the meta is basically: magicka DPS use BSW + IA/Moondancer, lay down DoTs, spam LA/spammable, drop Destro Ults. Stamina DPS use TFS + VO/Alkosh, lay down DoTs, spam LA/Rapid Strikes. Healers all run SPC/IA/Worm/Mending. Everyone uses the same CP loadouts. Tanks run Ebon + Alkosh + Bloodspawn. Last patch it was: everyone uses TBS + VO/Alkosh/IA/Moondancer.

Trials groups are 7 magsorcs, 1 magDK (2 for MoL, maybe none for other Trials), 2 templar healers, 2 DK tanks. No stam builds, no magblades, and even magplars are hard to find at this point.

Already we're seeing "BiS" builds (from Alcast and other theorycrafters) running War Maiden on magplars, Silks of the Sun on magDKs, Scathing on magblades (and hey, magblades look viable this patch!), and Necro on sorcs. Some classes (NBs, Templars) use a class spammable, some switch over to heavy attacks. The four existing classes are all using a different 5-piece and running very different rotations.

Alcast's stamplar build is using 2H weapon with Bone Pirate's Tatters and Dubious Camoran Throne food. People are using an Infused DW weapon. Jeckll and others are running War Machine on stamblades and switching to Surprise Attack instead of Rapid Strikes. StamDKs are running pure heavy attack builds. Cheap class ultis are viable over Destro Ult/Meteor/Rend to synergize with the new Major Slayer sets. Tanks actually have to be tanky instead of running medium armor. Players are running some recovery enchants and poisons in PvE.

I see more interesting theorycrafting going on right now than I've seen in a long, long time.

I also find the "ZOS listened to people who hate sustain" narrative funny, particularly when combined with "ZOS doesn't listen to player feedback." That seems a little contradictory. Personally I think ZOS looked at data and saw that the game wasn't playing quite how they intended it to play.

I don't really like using heavy attacks, but we'll get used to it, and in the end I think the holistic view of these changes looks pretty positive. There's still some tweaking that needs to be done but I'm glad they did something because the game was getting stale and easy, even if some people don't want to admit it.

1. Whatever is being used in trials has no reflection on the rest of the game. Trials will allways have a optimal way to build and teams willing and dedicated to get that. That's not a great idea of build diversity. Build diversity is PVP or PVE below that level, though I cant speak for PVP, I can say, PVE is gonna be the same heavy attack builds and whatever people can scrape together.

2. This game had closed the net. The bottleneck in dungeons as well as trials where mechanics are dependent on DPS is going to shorten peoples tollerence for anything less than the best. It's a psycological thing as much as a math thing.

You need to look in all places to get accurate read. Just because trials got more viable options does not mean the rest of the game got shafted. Then again, you likely believe that anything these people are running was wrong -anyway-, so I dont know why I bother. Hardcore PVE-ers are just as bad as Hardcore PVPers.

Doctordarkspawn

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

I like the sustain reductions.

Makes ya think some in PvE

Not really. Alll it really does is make you wait for someone to put together the next meta build and then copy that.

Shill somewhere else.

@DoctorDarkspawn lelele corporate shills, gd sheep *circlejerks*
>assuming I use build guides

Obviously I shill when I tell all of my friends to steer clear of this game. Constant server issues, rng loot crates and cash shop spam, strongest endgame weapons coming from dlc solo grindfest, 80% of crafted sets being nigh useless but they still shuffle out motifs to get that good ol' collecting itch scratched, almost no bugs get hotfixed and most of them that do end up showing again later, cheap asses using an outdated engine and allowing people to get away with hex edits.

Definitely a 'shill' though, because haha this guy has a different opinion on some stat/effect changes. Well memed. There's no reason to act like there's mystical groups of people that you can just assume others are part of when you disagree with them, you know. All it does is increase collective salt levels and convince people that things are not worth discussing or arguing over.

Whether or not you disagree with the games direction, (Monitary direction that is), pretending this balance direction is the best thing since sliced bread is bull. The people doing it are either fanboys or are not well enough along to value what their losing. I must assume you are the latter as you claim not to be the former.

LiquidPony

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »

It's Fine, Learn to Play

Adapt and Overcome

Just because easymode got turned off doesn't mean the game is now broken


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDMB-Bi27XQ

Go shill somewhere else.

@Doctordarkspawn

"Everyone who disagrees with me is a shill!"

That's you.

Anyway, I hated the first PTS patch notes. Logged on to v3.0.0, hated it. But after a month or so now ... I kind of like it. Like others have said, it's not how I would have gone about correcting power creep, but, in the end I believe this patch is going to allow more diversity among builds and gear and CP and DPS rotations.

It's really not that big of a change IMO. Re-spec CP and throw in some heavy attacks and carry on as normal.

No, the people parroting the same line over, and over, and over with no actual arguement, point, or purpose besides trying to drown out the opposition are shills. Their not interested in a conversation so I'm not going to bother trying to set one up. Classic example is the "Adapt or leave" crew.

Also, if we're here about correcting power creep, fine. Personally, I'm even fine with the changes if their treated like a stat crunch, ajusted, and the content ajusted with it to create a better experence. But it usually isn't, and we know that. ZOS is famous for not doing crap with our feedback so I'm not gonna hold my breath. (Remember all the people who said "It's only first week of PTS"? Yeah. How soon we forget. But build diversity? Nah. Nah s'not. In fact alot of people are having to fall in line more as the result of this patch.


This is the crux of the issue: ZOS lisened to the people who hated sustain, or rather, hated the power creep and decided to use the same heavy hand they used before. It dosent work. The game needs carefull attention and care, not a iron fist. They keep doing things without realizing their actions have consequences. (Insert meme here.) They remove sustain, and dont edit the content to match. Likely, this nerf will be met with similar heavy handed nerfs to content where they think is a problem, and nothing will truely get done. Just a continuing cycle of nerfs and or buffs that do nothing but cause more problems due to the lack of real direction or vision.

@LiquidPony

@Doctordarkspawn

I don't understand how anyone could possibly think that Morrowind could be worse for diversity than what we have now.

Right now the meta is basically: magicka DPS use BSW + IA/Moondancer, lay down DoTs, spam LA/spammable, drop Destro Ults. Stamina DPS use TFS + VO/Alkosh, lay down DoTs, spam LA/Rapid Strikes. Healers all run SPC/IA/Worm/Mending. Everyone uses the same CP loadouts. Tanks run Ebon + Alkosh + Bloodspawn. Last patch it was: everyone uses TBS + VO/Alkosh/IA/Moondancer.

Trials groups are 7 magsorcs, 1 magDK (2 for MoL, maybe none for other Trials), 2 templar healers, 2 DK tanks. No stam builds, no magblades, and even magplars are hard to find at this point.

Already we're seeing "BiS" builds (from Alcast and other theorycrafters) running War Maiden on magplars, Silks of the Sun on magDKs, Scathing on magblades (and hey, magblades look viable this patch!), and Necro on sorcs. Some classes (NBs, Templars) use a class spammable, some switch over to heavy attacks. The four existing classes are all using a different 5-piece and running very different rotations.

Alcast's stamplar build is using 2H weapon with Bone Pirate's Tatters and Dubious Camoran Throne food. People are using an Infused DW weapon. Jeckll and others are running War Machine on stamblades and switching to Surprise Attack instead of Rapid Strikes. StamDKs are running pure heavy attack builds. Cheap class ultis are viable over Destro Ult/Meteor/Rend to synergize with the new Major Slayer sets. Tanks actually have to be tanky instead of running medium armor. Players are running some recovery enchants and poisons in PvE.

I see more interesting theorycrafting going on right now than I've seen in a long, long time.

I also find the "ZOS listened to people who hate sustain" narrative funny, particularly when combined with "ZOS doesn't listen to player feedback." That seems a little contradictory. Personally I think ZOS looked at data and saw that the game wasn't playing quite how they intended it to play.

I don't really like using heavy attacks, but we'll get used to it, and in the end I think the holistic view of these changes looks pretty positive. There's still some tweaking that needs to be done but I'm glad they did something because the game was getting stale and easy, even if some people don't want to admit it.

1. Whatever is being used in trials has no reflection on the rest of the game. Trials will allways have a optimal way to build and teams willing and dedicated to get that. That's not a great idea of build diversity. Build diversity is PVP or PVE below that level, though I cant speak for PVP, I can say, PVE is gonna be the same heavy attack builds and whatever people can scrape together.

2. This game had closed the net. The bottleneck in dungeons as well as trials where mechanics are dependent on DPS is going to shorten peoples tollerence for anything less than the best. It's a psycological thing as much as a math thing.

You need to look in all places to get accurate read. Just because trials got more viable options does not mean the rest of the game got shafted. Then again, you likely believe that anything these people are running was wrong -anyway-, so I dont know why I bother. Hardcore PVE-ers are just as bad as Hardcore PVPers.

@Doctordarkspawn

What a load of hogwash. Trials and other end-game PvE meta is been funneled into 2 or 3 specific builds for ages; this is the first time in recent memory that there's real diversity in what constitutes "BiS" across a wide variety of builds. That trickles down to the rest of the player base, or at least those who are willing to google "eso stamina templar build" or whatever.

I also always find it amusing that people like you point at Trials players or hardcore PvPers and call them "elitists" ... and then proceed to trash the skill level of the casual playerbase. Players generally have some idea of what they're doing. They may not be in groups that are capable of smashing through vet HM Trials but they aren't stupid and they aren't clueless. And for those that are ... so what? We're supposed to be happy that the whole game is a face-roll because a small segment of the game's population never bothered to learn how combat works? That ain't everyone. I spend a lot of time playing with relatively casual players, and helping newer players or players who want to improve their builds here and on Reddit, and I think you are vastly underestimating them.

The sustain changes have the smallest effect on newer or casual players, anyway, as the primary sustain nerfs were in CP ... which are irrelevant to new players.

The game's going to be fine. The patch is fine. It's not what everyone thought they wanted so we get to hear the whiners do what they do for a month or so until everyone settles back in, and then in 3 or 6 months the salt-fest will get rolling again.

And I say that all as someone who has, here and on Reddit and elsewhere, complained a lot about the changes in this patch. But as I've actually played it ... it's not so bad. It's kind of interesting and pretty fun, IMO.

F7sus4

Phinix1 wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

I like the sustain reductions.

Makes ya think some in PvE

I disagree. Adding artificial difficulty or tedium is never a good way to spice up combat. Having to worry about positioning, dodging, MECHANICS, that sort of thing makes combat more fun and interesting.

Having to hold down my attack button for 2 seconds like a derp every other kill doesn't add anything fun or interesting but tedium, and the only think it has made me "think" so far is "OMG this is really freaking stupid."

Because you actually understand what happened. The whole crowd shouting "Now it makes you think" is simply repeating what that Wrobel guy told them without having any clue.