The Future of Elegant Set & Molten Armaments

DDuke

Moglijuana wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

You can hit like 25-30k heavys at the moment, 15% isn't going to break them.

As it happens, 25-30k is the average health of players.

You take away 3,8k-4,5k damage from that and people will live through your burst and the entire build is ruined.


So yes, 15% nerf is going to break these builds.

Now, I'm not saying they should roll back these changes - but at the very least they should buff Molten Armaments & sets like Elegant so that they provide the same amount of damage as before.

Example:
Currently: 20k+20% (Elegant)=25k (you get 5k from Elegant)
After patch: 17k (-15% heavy attack damage)+20% (Elegant)=20,4k (3,4k from Elegant)

That's a 38% reduction in set effectiveness.

This is how you'd fix it:
17k+30% (buffed Elegant)=22,1k (5,1k from Elegant)

Now the set provides close to same amount of benefit as before, while the overall heavy attack damage is still nerfed.

Good 25-30k heavy attacks are stupid in the first place.

Plus all you'd have to do it literally use a skill, heavy's should be damaging if they land but not to the point where builds hit for like 80% of someones hp.

In pve heavy dps won't really change.
In pvp they'll do less dmg but give a lot more resources.

Is there a difference I'm not aware of between 25-30k damage from a destro heavy attack & 25-30k damage from a 2H ulti? Or sorc overload?

Doesn't matter what build you're playing, every build needs a 100->0% burst to be successful in PvP - that's just how PvP is in this game.

Well for a start 2 are ultimates.

The other is a heavy attack.

I can throw as many heavy's as i want, if i don't 1 hit someone with the 2h ult your basically useless
Overload still costs ult as well.

2H ulti recharges after you one shot someone with it & the cost of one overload light attack is close to nothing.

Also, both of them are instant (unlike heavy attacks) and thus much harder to avoid.

But they are still ultimates.

Heavy's aren't even skills, they actually give resources and cost nothing and can be cast as much as possible.

Yes, and I think I explained above why they are ultimates and heavy attacks aren't:

Also, both of them are instant (unlike heavy attacks) and thus much harder to avoid.

Resources don't matter one bit if you don't have burst to kill people.

In fact, I'd say that making heavy attacks return even more resources is toxic for PvP, as that just makes people have infinite resources which causes the problem I mentioned above.

These changes also force even more people to use lightning/resto staff (which are already everywhere) as there's really no reason to use inferno staff if you can't burst people with it.


So how do you propose people who want to play a ranged magicka DK or ranged magicka NB build their characters after these changes? And how would you keep Elegant/Molten Armaments relevant?

They'll still be relevant, more so than every other H.A. build. The damage is simply being toned down. I'm currently running a H.A. build and I'm ok with the changes. They make sense and will help my overall build in the long run.

When I can do this to ppl:


I don't mind the dmg going down to let ppl have some kind of counter. And now I get 30% more resources and a faster heavy? Let's gooooo.

That is so easily to countered though (unless it comes from stealth), you just block or roll dodge - or wear heavy armor so that it never hits that hard.

And if you've built for inferno heavy attacks, once someone counters your burst (or doesn't die from it) you're pretty much dead or useless.

This just leads to more people flocking to the same FOTM builds that are everywhere - builds that can reliably burst people down.

Take magicka NB for example:

Currently you can make Stygian+Elegant work quite well & reliably deal dmg close to what is on that screenshot of yours.
Currently you can also go Stygian+Necropotence(or Alchemist) & deal same (more on heavy armor) damage with a 2H ulti from cloak.

Next patch, your only option will be to go for the 2H ulti version.


Is this good for the game? Reducing the amount of viable builds in the game?

I don't think it is.

I'm a DK, so no stealth for me. That picture isn't even wearing Elegant (it's sun), so every one of my abilities hits hard. If the heavies don't kill them, everything else right behind it will. My self-buffed tooltip for whip is sitting at 10.5k with a 12.5k power lash. Dragonleap sits at a whopping 20k. I hit ridiculously hard and have suprising sustain, especially with BloodSpawn. IF someone lives through my burst it's honestly pretty easy to kite them and keep their health low and just wait for another opening.

I just think 1 shot capabilities should be toned down (on all classes), as they offer little to no counter play. Dodge + Block can only do so much before you misjudge the timing and get one shot (which happens quite often, even against good players.) I like working for my kills.

Well, you definitely hit someone squishy then with that heavy attack if you aren't even playing a heavy attack build.

Also, I hope you're aware that Sun set doesn't scale with Major Sorcery which makes it kinda garbage, you'd get more damage with lots of other sets (BSW, Alchemist etc).

The main problem with one shot builds is that they are necessary at the moment. When healing/shield spamming outpaces any steady damage output, your only way to get kills are these instagib combos.

If this wasn't the case, I'd definitely agree with you regarding 1 shot capabilities.

olsborg

Doesnt elegant set also buff the light atk dmg?

DDuke

geonsocal wrote: »

won't the 20% buff to light attack (using elegance set) offset the loss of damage from the nerf to heavy attacks (with elegance)...

No, for various reasons:

1. Light attacks deal much less damage than heavy attacks, so naturally you get much less DPS by increasing them by 20%. I'll do some testing and get you the exact numbers.
2. When it comes to PvP, I doubt getting 100-200 more damage with light attacks is worth more than the 4-5k burst you previously got from heavy attacks with this set.
3. Which gets us to the last point: there is no way you ever use this set in PvE, especially with heavy attack damage nerfed. The most you can get is like 2-3k DPS more from light attacks, which is much less than most other top tier sets provide you.

geonsocal

thanks @DDuke ...i don't think the actual values have been released yet - but, I thought it had been mentioned light attacks will soon do more damage then heavy attacks when morrowind goes live...with the heavy attack speed being increased...

I know - light attacks stronger than heavy attacks sounds weird

I'm so confused - i don't know what to do...my magplar (healer) wears 5 light and 2 heavy (plus 1 monster piece)...

i had him in 5 pc julianos and 5 pc rattlecage, but, thought with all the light and heavy attacking that'll be going on - elegance would work better than rattlecage (20% damage buff to light and heavy attacks > 20% increased spell damage)...

now I'm not so sure...

Edit: ugh, when do we get more bank space with eso plus...i have so many sets now...i'm reaching max capacity with just about all my characters (8) plus the bank...

Moglijuana

DDuke wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

You can hit like 25-30k heavys at the moment, 15% isn't going to break them.

As it happens, 25-30k is the average health of players.

You take away 3,8k-4,5k damage from that and people will live through your burst and the entire build is ruined.


So yes, 15% nerf is going to break these builds.

Now, I'm not saying they should roll back these changes - but at the very least they should buff Molten Armaments & sets like Elegant so that they provide the same amount of damage as before.

Example:
Currently: 20k+20% (Elegant)=25k (you get 5k from Elegant)
After patch: 17k (-15% heavy attack damage)+20% (Elegant)=20,4k (3,4k from Elegant)

That's a 38% reduction in set effectiveness.

This is how you'd fix it:
17k+30% (buffed Elegant)=22,1k (5,1k from Elegant)

Now the set provides close to same amount of benefit as before, while the overall heavy attack damage is still nerfed.

Good 25-30k heavy attacks are stupid in the first place.

Plus all you'd have to do it literally use a skill, heavy's should be damaging if they land but not to the point where builds hit for like 80% of someones hp.

In pve heavy dps won't really change.
In pvp they'll do less dmg but give a lot more resources.

Is there a difference I'm not aware of between 25-30k damage from a destro heavy attack & 25-30k damage from a 2H ulti? Or sorc overload?

Doesn't matter what build you're playing, every build needs a 100->0% burst to be successful in PvP - that's just how PvP is in this game.

Well for a start 2 are ultimates.

The other is a heavy attack.

I can throw as many heavy's as i want, if i don't 1 hit someone with the 2h ult your basically useless
Overload still costs ult as well.

2H ulti recharges after you one shot someone with it & the cost of one overload light attack is close to nothing.

Also, both of them are instant (unlike heavy attacks) and thus much harder to avoid.

But they are still ultimates.

Heavy's aren't even skills, they actually give resources and cost nothing and can be cast as much as possible.

Yes, and I think I explained above why they are ultimates and heavy attacks aren't:

Also, both of them are instant (unlike heavy attacks) and thus much harder to avoid.

Resources don't matter one bit if you don't have burst to kill people.

In fact, I'd say that making heavy attacks return even more resources is toxic for PvP, as that just makes people have infinite resources which causes the problem I mentioned above.

These changes also force even more people to use lightning/resto staff (which are already everywhere) as there's really no reason to use inferno staff if you can't burst people with it.


So how do you propose people who want to play a ranged magicka DK or ranged magicka NB build their characters after these changes? And how would you keep Elegant/Molten Armaments relevant?

They'll still be relevant, more so than every other H.A. build. The damage is simply being toned down. I'm currently running a H.A. build and I'm ok with the changes. They make sense and will help my overall build in the long run.

When I can do this to ppl:


I don't mind the dmg going down to let ppl have some kind of counter. And now I get 30% more resources and a faster heavy? Let's gooooo.

That is so easily to countered though (unless it comes from stealth), you just block or roll dodge - or wear heavy armor so that it never hits that hard.

And if you've built for inferno heavy attacks, once someone counters your burst (or doesn't die from it) you're pretty much dead or useless.

This just leads to more people flocking to the same FOTM builds that are everywhere - builds that can reliably burst people down.

Take magicka NB for example:

Currently you can make Stygian+Elegant work quite well & reliably deal dmg close to what is on that screenshot of yours.
Currently you can also go Stygian+Necropotence(or Alchemist) & deal same (more on heavy armor) damage with a 2H ulti from cloak.

Next patch, your only option will be to go for the 2H ulti version.


Is this good for the game? Reducing the amount of viable builds in the game?

I don't think it is.

I'm a DK, so no stealth for me. That picture isn't even wearing Elegant (it's sun), so every one of my abilities hits hard. If the heavies don't kill them, everything else right behind it will. My self-buffed tooltip for whip is sitting at 10.5k with a 12.5k power lash. Dragonleap sits at a whopping 20k. I hit ridiculously hard and have suprising sustain, especially with BloodSpawn. IF someone lives through my burst it's honestly pretty easy to kite them and keep their health low and just wait for another opening.

I just think 1 shot capabilities should be toned down (on all classes), as they offer little to no counter play. Dodge + Block can only do so much before you misjudge the timing and get one shot (which happens quite often, even against good players.) I like working for my kills.

Well, you definitely hit someone squishy then with that heavy attack if you aren't even playing a heavy attack build.

Also, I hope you're aware that Sun set doesn't scale with Major Sorcery which makes it kinda garbage, you'd get more damage with lots of other sets (BSW, Alchemist etc).

The main problem with one shot builds is that they are necessary at the moment. When healing/shield spamming outpaces any steady damage output, your only way to get kills are these instagib combos.

If this wasn't the case, I'd definitely agree with you regarding 1 shot capabilities.

I've tested basically every set, Sun has been my favorite as its' damage is consistent. I get to 2,989 SD + the 400 from Sun (so effectively 3,389 without resource buff) with 38k max and 52% crit (crit is the key). Clever + BSW are too small of a window for me as I kite a lot since I am in Light and don't like relying on the Proc. The only thing that may be better than what I have been running is Julianos, but after playing the same build for almost two months Sun has grown on me and my AP gain has been pretty good, especially since I play solo a lot.

But yea I have to agree with you about the shields negating all types of consistent damage, I didn't really think about that. IF shields weren't so OP THEN one shots should be toned down. But, this new patch seems to be toning shields down a bit anyways, so maybe the heavies needed to be toned down as well to compensate. Because if they left my heavies untouched, one shots would happen way more than they do now lol. Idk yet though, I'm still waiting with the rest of the console plebs to try all these things out.

Lord_Hev

Before anyone gets any wild ideas, the light attack blanket buff does NOT apply to overload. I just tested it now on PTS in comparison to live with identical stats.


Mage stone, complete naked, zero blue CP. 0 spell dmg, 19,494 magic. Altmer racial passives.


Overload tooltip identical on live and pts = 4,036.



The light attack blanket buff 15% only applies to -weapon- light attacks.

notimetocare

The changes impact dps, not dmg burst...

LtCrunch

DDuke wrote: »

Decreased the damage of Heavy Attacks by 15%.

Now that Heavy Attacks are being made pretty much useless from burst perspective, could we get some buffs to sets like Elegant so they don't become 100% garbage?

Same goes for Molten Armaments.

Based on some crude calculations I made, Elegant should be buffed from 20% to around 24-25% for it to provide roughly same amount of damage as before.

For Molten Armaments, it would have to be buffed to around 48% for it to provide same amount of DPS as before (though I don't see the harm of buffing it to 50% now that overall burst damage is going down anyhow).


Or you can just leave these sets & skills (that weren't really FOTM in the first place) as they are and render them useless.

How do people still not get that these resource nerfs were a way for ZOS to nerf DPS output, without outright saying that's their goal?

They don't want you to hit as hard in this update.