What is the light at the end of this tunnel? Theories anyone? A zos response if I am lucky?

Dorrino

DragonBound wrote: »

but I am still confused as how this will give us more diversity

I can answer this.

First, we're talking about ZOS intention, not current PTS implementation of that intention, that is not final.

Build diversity can only come from playerstyles. There always will be meta builds that would serve as reference points for effective gameplay.

What ZOS try to do is to add resource sustain as a factor to any build in the game. Now, since any spec can achieve right sustain just by using heavy attacks, the question that remains is 'how much a particular player PREFERS to rely on heavy attacks for sustain?'

If one player is fine with relying only on heavies for sustain, he'll have an option to build purely for damage (or heals) and incorporate heavy attacks into his playerstyle. Some other player might not like heavies that much, so he could 'outsource' a larger part of his sustain to his gear sets/glyphs choice (thus reducing his damage/heals), but he'd be able to get rid of heavies from his rotation (or minimize their number).

So additional build diversity naturally arises from players preference as to how they in particular prefer to manage their resources.

If before the answer to the question 'do you like to use heavy attacks for sustain?' was 'what heavy attacks?', now the answer is supposed to be - 'it depends'.

D0ntevenL1ft

The only ZOS response you'll ever get is one notifying you that posts have been deleted and we need to follow the forum rules.

Dreyloch

DragonBound wrote: »

Alright so something very strange is going on, to me these changes seem fairly bad at the moment and not only because others are showing results in videos and such, just by reading the changes they are concerning. I cannot fathom why zos would want to drive players away, especially those who continue like me to spend money on cosmetics and more.

So logically there has to be a reason for this, I know all of you are intelligent and in no way are doing this because you do not know better, so maybe you could give us little bit of detail here what we will see at the end of this update? For example in what way will this create build diversity for trials and more?

Thank you for reading, and zos if your reading please give us a response we would greatly appreciate it.

Gamers any theories? Lets try to be optimistic as possible I want to see positive theories for once maybe there is something we are not seeing.

That's just it. It won't. It will create LESS build diversity. Unless they revert some of the sustain changes, or go back and dumb down all the Vet NPC's. Because everyone will have to re-gear in order to try and compensate for the loss of sustain to DPS.

DragonBound

Syrani wrote: »

Personally, I think BUILD diversity is the wrong approach. I think CLASS diversity is what needs to be looked at. At the start of the game, it seems we tried to get a good mix of classes because they all had something to offer. We took NB's because Veil was useful. We took Sorcs for Negate, Templars were great healers plus had Nova, DK's were good tanks and had chains, etc. You wanted a good mix of classes so you could get the benefits of their unique abilities and buffs/debuffs. It was more about what each class brought to the group, instead of which class has the most DPS. Somewhere along the way, the usefulness of the unique class abilities gave way to pure damage. In order to make things more "diverse", I think this usefulness needs to be brought back.

For an example, on the Twins fight in vMoL, it is very beneficial to have mag DK's so they can chain the adds. In the old Hel Ra hardmode (back in the day, not now), it was beneficial to have sorcs and NB's for the Warrior fight so they could use negates and veils to reduce the damage we were taking, etc. Now, you just need to make sure that 4 people have Warhorn - a PVP ult that is not class specific.

WoW does class diversity pretty well in my opinion. In that game, CC during some fights was darn near mandatory, but only some classes had the right kind of CC abilities to where you can take an add out of a fight almost indefinitely. Warlocks had their portals that they could set up in an encounter area before the fight, and you could use this portal to teleport to another location. This was very handy to have in some situations. Some classes had bloodlust/heroism (similar to warhorn), while others didn't, so you would want to bring a class that had that buff. Different classes of healers healed differently - some were highly focused on HoTs, while others were more single target. Each class had different healing "cooldowns" (similar to ultimates), so you wanted to bring a mix of healing classes so that their healing styles would compliment each other.

I realize WoW has MANY more classes than ESO, but there has to be a way to make ESO classes more unique so that you want to bring a mix. In any case, I don't see how nerfing sustain makes anything more diverse.

You make a good point but remember wow has more classes to do it with, this game needs hidden classes since it offers only 5 atm and soon to be another.

DragonBound

Dorrino wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

but I am still confused as how this will give us more diversity

I can answer this.

First, we're talking about ZOS intention, not current PTS implementation of that intention, that is not final.

Build diversity can only come from playerstyles. There always will be meta builds that would serve as reference points for effective gameplay.

What ZOS try to do is to add resource sustain as a factor to any build in the game. Now, since any spec can achieve right sustain just by using heavy attacks, the question that remains is 'how much a particular player PREFERS to rely on heavy attacks for sustain?'

If one player is fine with relying only on heavies for sustain, he'll have an option to build purely for damage (or heals) and incorporate heavy attacks into his playerstyle. Some other player might not like heavies that much, so he could 'outsource' a larger part of his sustain to his gear sets/glyphs choice (thus reducing his damage/heals), but he'd be able to get rid of heavies from his rotation (or minimize their number).

So additional build diversity naturally arises from players preference as to how they in particular prefer to manage their resources.

If before the answer to the question 'do you like to use heavy attacks for sustain?' was 'what heavy attacks?', now the answer is supposed to be - 'it depends'.

Really? I have heard you pretty much kind of have to rely on heavy attacks.

Feanor

I'm quite sure that light at the end of the tunnel is the splash of a lightning staff heavy attack

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Sigtric wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

To revert rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep that has accumulated unanswered over the years.

The changes are still imperfect, but they're a good start.

Interesting, I have kind of heard a smaller explanation of this, but why do so many disagree?

Because these 'rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep' causing changes made it really easy to play this game. Now they are trying to fix that and it's going to raise the difficulty level back to where it should have been in the first place. This makes people mad.

Way back, ESO overland had some pretty difficult areas. Now we can just smash our faces into the keyboard and win because of power creep.

We should indeed feel stronger after spending countless hours upgrading our characters, and honing our ability to play, but at the same time the game has been getting easier and easier to surf through content because of the ability to pump out really high DPS and practically ignore sustain.

TLDR the little kiddies got used to being fed ice cream for dinner every night and are now throwing a temper tantrum when it's going back to healthy meals.

Except you lot have been eating ice cream for dinner every night for months / years. What about the rest of us? What about the new guys, or the newer guys who haven't made it to trials yet? I'm not even CP 160 yet, by your analogy I'm eating moldy breadcrumbs because I can't sustain to save my life and nothing is particularly easy.

Something that all the "you're just spoiled" PTS apologists keep conveniently forgetting is that players like us exist. In great numbers, in fact, thanks to all the recent promos and events / deals. You got to eat the ice cream for all this time, and now that we're finally at the dinner table, all we get are morsels? That seems totally fair.

Dorrino

DragonBound wrote: »

Really? I have heard you pretty much kind of have to rely on heavy attacks.

In a full damage build? Yes.

In a full sustain build? No.

In a damage-sustain mix build? Sometimes.

That's the whole point for the changes.

Sigtric

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

To revert rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep that has accumulated unanswered over the years.

The changes are still imperfect, but they're a good start.

Interesting, I have kind of heard a smaller explanation of this, but why do so many disagree?

Because these 'rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep' causing changes made it really easy to play this game. Now they are trying to fix that and it's going to raise the difficulty level back to where it should have been in the first place. This makes people mad.

Way back, ESO overland had some pretty difficult areas. Now we can just smash our faces into the keyboard and win because of power creep.

We should indeed feel stronger after spending countless hours upgrading our characters, and honing our ability to play, but at the same time the game has been getting easier and easier to surf through content because of the ability to pump out really high DPS and practically ignore sustain.

TLDR the little kiddies got used to being fed ice cream for dinner every night and are now throwing a temper tantrum when it's going back to healthy meals.

Except you lot have been eating ice cream for dinner every night for months / years. What about the rest of us? What about the new guys, or the newer guys who haven't made it to trials yet? I'm not even CP 160 yet, by your analogy I'm eating moldy breadcrumbs because I can't sustain to save my life and nothing is particularly easy.

Something that all the "you're just spoiled" PTS apologists keep conveniently forgetting is that players like us exist. In great numbers, in fact, thanks to all the recent promos and events / deals. You got to eat the ice cream for all this time, and now that we're finally at the dinner table, all we get are morsels? That seems totally fair.

Now you will get to eat the same stuff we did when the game launched, before CP and other various things lead to the power creep we have currently.

TazESO

Sigtric wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

To revert rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep that has accumulated unanswered over the years.

The changes are still imperfect, but they're a good start.

Interesting, I have kind of heard a smaller explanation of this, but why do so many disagree?

Because these 'rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep' causing changes made it really easy to play this game. Now they are trying to fix that and it's going to raise the difficulty level back to where it should have been in the first place. This makes people mad.

Way back, ESO overland had some pretty difficult areas. Now we can just smash our faces into the keyboard and win because of power creep.

We should indeed feel stronger after spending countless hours upgrading our characters, and honing our ability to play, but at the same time the game has been getting easier and easier to surf through content because of the ability to pump out really high DPS and practically ignore sustain.

TLDR the little kiddies got used to being fed ice cream for dinner every night and are now throwing a temper tantrum when it's going back to healthy meals.

Boom! Dayum. Lol

DragonBound

Dorrino wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

Really? I have heard you pretty much kind of have to rely on heavy attacks.

In a full damage build? Yes.

In a full sustain build? No.

In a damage-sustain mix build? Sometimes.

That's the whole point for the changes.

Well when you put it that way.

ForsakenSin

Dorrino

DragonBound wrote: »

Well when you put it that way.

They told us about this in plain English:)

Sustain was irrelevant in PVE. They decided that making it relevant again will make the game more balanced (by reducing power creep), more complex (by reintroducing additional factor to play with and build around) and will lead to higher build variety (instead of 'go all damage' current paradigm).

I'm not sure how people can get confused with that.

DragonBound

Dorrino wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

Well when you put it that way.

They told us about this in plain English:)

Sustain was irrelevant in PVE. They decided that making it relevant again will make the game more balanced (by reducing power creep), more complex (by reintroducing additional factor to play with and build around) and will lead to higher build variety (instead of 'go all damage' current paradigm).

I'm not sure how people can get confused with that.

No people got that part but they did not explain it quite like you did. Anyways the problem is people feel it is an over nerf on sustain for pve. But if this really does create more diverse roles in groups then straight dps I am all for it.

Dorrino

DragonBound wrote: »

No people got that part but they did not explain it quite like you did. Anyways the problem is people feel it is an over nerf on sustain for pve. But if this really does create more diverse roles in groups then straight dps I am all for it.

Keep in mind that build diversity does not exist at the min-max level by definition.

So pure end game builds will be mostly the same, since 'hardcore' endgame players don't care about convenience. They care only about +1% more to their damage/heals/tankiness.

As far as the 'hardcore' populace is concerned the changes were meant to tone down their effectiveness in all areas. And they were.

The mentioned diversity is supposed to arise starting from right below 'super hardcore' level down to 'upper casual' level.

Pure casual level is all over the place in terms of builds used, so it's already very much diverse.

'To heavy attack or not to heavy attack' decision that i mentioned is only applied to the average players. Who are not hardcore enough to sacrifice everything for the sake of highest possible effectiveness and not casual enough to ignore effectiveness altogether.

edit: having said all that i suddenly realized that some people might've understood ZOS's claim about build diversity to be applied to pure endgame content:) Now i see why these people could get confused. Nope, as i said above you can't make endgame builds more diverse. It's not possible. So it feels like ZOS failed to properly communicate their goals yet again:D

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Sigtric wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

To revert rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep that has accumulated unanswered over the years.

The changes are still imperfect, but they're a good start.

Interesting, I have kind of heard a smaller explanation of this, but why do so many disagree?

Because these 'rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep' causing changes made it really easy to play this game. Now they are trying to fix that and it's going to raise the difficulty level back to where it should have been in the first place. This makes people mad.

Way back, ESO overland had some pretty difficult areas. Now we can just smash our faces into the keyboard and win because of power creep.

We should indeed feel stronger after spending countless hours upgrading our characters, and honing our ability to play, but at the same time the game has been getting easier and easier to surf through content because of the ability to pump out really high DPS and practically ignore sustain.

TLDR the little kiddies got used to being fed ice cream for dinner every night and are now throwing a temper tantrum when it's going back to healthy meals.

Except you lot have been eating ice cream for dinner every night for months / years. What about the rest of us? What about the new guys, or the newer guys who haven't made it to trials yet? I'm not even CP 160 yet, by your analogy I'm eating moldy breadcrumbs because I can't sustain to save my life and nothing is particularly easy.

Something that all the "you're just spoiled" PTS apologists keep conveniently forgetting is that players like us exist. In great numbers, in fact, thanks to all the recent promos and events / deals. You got to eat the ice cream for all this time, and now that we're finally at the dinner table, all we get are morsels? That seems totally fair.

Now you will get to eat the same stuff we did when the game launched, before CP and other various things lead to the power creep we have currently.

Okay, but putting aside the whole "heavy attacking isn't fun" and "infinite sustain doesn't exist outside of trials" arguments, that still doesn't create a level playing field. You (the veterans) have all of this fantastic endgame gear that you got as a result of this "power creep" and "OP sustain", and we don't. If we don't get it within the next month, anyway. Depending on how attainable the dps checks are for the new average dps, we may never have it. So I ask again, how is that fair?

Any argument of "well you'll just have to play better" is invalid. You didn't have to "play better" for the same rewards, so why should we?

Xvorg

Dorrino wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

Really? I have heard you pretty much kind of have to rely on heavy attacks.

In a full damage build? Yes.

In a full sustain build? No.

In a damage-sustain mix build? Sometimes.

That's the whole point for the changes.

All builds look for max dmg with less sustain, so the full sustain option is not to be considered.

I played here during the full sustain meta... it was garbage. Sure, sometimes you felt "heroic" for battling during several minutes against the same opponent(s), but after a couple hours it became tedious.

So I doubt people is gonna stack sustain, at least those who played here before 1.6... They are gonna take de advantage of the Heavy attack meta in Heavy armor.

HugeMuffin

Also, I started playing with the b2p tamriel unlimited release. Everything that I heard about this game during the first year it was out was that it was terrible on all counts save for PvP. Why are people excited about going back to that? Is it the PvP?

Why can't we go back to last year? Or at some point that the game was better than at release?

Dracindo

Don't worry, OP, I'm pretty sure ZoS will respond at some point, saying that some comments have been removed because they didn't follow the yadda yadda rules and that people should read it and shiz.

I came here just to say this, I'll escort myself out, thank you

LiquidPony

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

To revert rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep that has accumulated unanswered over the years.

The changes are still imperfect, but they're a good start.

Interesting, I have kind of heard a smaller explanation of this, but why do so many disagree?

Because these 'rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep' causing changes made it really easy to play this game. Now they are trying to fix that and it's going to raise the difficulty level back to where it should have been in the first place. This makes people mad.

Way back, ESO overland had some pretty difficult areas. Now we can just smash our faces into the keyboard and win because of power creep.

We should indeed feel stronger after spending countless hours upgrading our characters, and honing our ability to play, but at the same time the game has been getting easier and easier to surf through content because of the ability to pump out really high DPS and practically ignore sustain.

TLDR the little kiddies got used to being fed ice cream for dinner every night and are now throwing a temper tantrum when it's going back to healthy meals.

Except you lot have been eating ice cream for dinner every night for months / years. What about the rest of us? What about the new guys, or the newer guys who haven't made it to trials yet? I'm not even CP 160 yet, by your analogy I'm eating moldy breadcrumbs because I can't sustain to save my life and nothing is particularly easy.

Something that all the "you're just spoiled" PTS apologists keep conveniently forgetting is that players like us exist. In great numbers, in fact, thanks to all the recent promos and events / deals. You got to eat the ice cream for all this time, and now that we're finally at the dinner table, all we get are morsels? That seems totally fair.

Now you will get to eat the same stuff we did when the game launched, before CP and other various things lead to the power creep we have currently.

Okay, but putting aside the whole "heavy attacking isn't fun" and "infinite sustain doesn't exist outside of trials" arguments, that still doesn't create a level playing field. You (the veterans) have all of this fantastic endgame gear that you got as a result of this "power creep" and "OP sustain", and we don't. If we don't get it within the next month, anyway. Depending on how attainable the dps checks are for the new average dps, we may never have it. So I ask again, how is that fair?

Any argument of "well you'll just have to play better" is invalid. You didn't have to "play better" for the same rewards, so why should we?

@Crafts_Many_Boxes back in my day we had to run Trials uphill both ways, in the snow, with bees chasing us!

It's not "fantastic endgame gear" that differentiates a good player from a not-good player.

Every bit of gear in the game, aside from Maelstrom/Master weapons, can be farmed on normal difficulty. All but the most elite guilds have DPS requirements that can be achieved in crafted and overland gear.

I don't like the changes coming in Morrowind but people are blowing it way out of proportion. Having to heavy attack a few times in your rotation may drop your DPS a little bit but isn't going to make the game significantly more difficult, especially with 30 more CP.

Sigtric

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

To revert rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep that has accumulated unanswered over the years.

The changes are still imperfect, but they're a good start.

Interesting, I have kind of heard a smaller explanation of this, but why do so many disagree?

Because these 'rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep' causing changes made it really easy to play this game. Now they are trying to fix that and it's going to raise the difficulty level back to where it should have been in the first place. This makes people mad.

Way back, ESO overland had some pretty difficult areas. Now we can just smash our faces into the keyboard and win because of power creep.

We should indeed feel stronger after spending countless hours upgrading our characters, and honing our ability to play, but at the same time the game has been getting easier and easier to surf through content because of the ability to pump out really high DPS and practically ignore sustain.

TLDR the little kiddies got used to being fed ice cream for dinner every night and are now throwing a temper tantrum when it's going back to healthy meals.

Except you lot have been eating ice cream for dinner every night for months / years. What about the rest of us? What about the new guys, or the newer guys who haven't made it to trials yet? I'm not even CP 160 yet, by your analogy I'm eating moldy breadcrumbs because I can't sustain to save my life and nothing is particularly easy.

Something that all the "you're just spoiled" PTS apologists keep conveniently forgetting is that players like us exist. In great numbers, in fact, thanks to all the recent promos and events / deals. You got to eat the ice cream for all this time, and now that we're finally at the dinner table, all we get are morsels? That seems totally fair.

Now you will get to eat the same stuff we did when the game launched, before CP and other various things lead to the power creep we have currently.

Okay, but putting aside the whole "heavy attacking isn't fun" and "infinite sustain doesn't exist outside of trials" arguments, that still doesn't create a level playing field. You (the veterans) have all of this fantastic endgame gear that you got as a result of this "power creep" and "OP sustain", and we don't. If we don't get it within the next month, anyway. Depending on how attainable the dps checks are for the new average dps, we may never have it. So I ask again, how is that fair?

Any argument of "well you'll just have to play better" is invalid. You didn't have to "play better" for the same rewards, so why should we?

There isn't an argument because none is needed. You're just going to have to deal with it.

The current state of the game doesn't fit the original scope for combat, nor does it fit the desired scope for combat going forward, and they are attempting to fix that.

Suck it up and play, or don't. It's pretty simple. Your complaints about not getting the same thing? So sorry. Should have been here earlier. It's like the dude who shows up 2 weeks after the sale at the store ends thinking he should get the deal. You missed out, it sucks, but that's no basis to change things or make things "fair" because you think you're entitled to something.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Sigtric wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

To revert rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep that has accumulated unanswered over the years.

The changes are still imperfect, but they're a good start.

Interesting, I have kind of heard a smaller explanation of this, but why do so many disagree?

Because these 'rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep' causing changes made it really easy to play this game. Now they are trying to fix that and it's going to raise the difficulty level back to where it should have been in the first place. This makes people mad.

Way back, ESO overland had some pretty difficult areas. Now we can just smash our faces into the keyboard and win because of power creep.

We should indeed feel stronger after spending countless hours upgrading our characters, and honing our ability to play, but at the same time the game has been getting easier and easier to surf through content because of the ability to pump out really high DPS and practically ignore sustain.

TLDR the little kiddies got used to being fed ice cream for dinner every night and are now throwing a temper tantrum when it's going back to healthy meals.

Except you lot have been eating ice cream for dinner every night for months / years. What about the rest of us? What about the new guys, or the newer guys who haven't made it to trials yet? I'm not even CP 160 yet, by your analogy I'm eating moldy breadcrumbs because I can't sustain to save my life and nothing is particularly easy.

Something that all the "you're just spoiled" PTS apologists keep conveniently forgetting is that players like us exist. In great numbers, in fact, thanks to all the recent promos and events / deals. You got to eat the ice cream for all this time, and now that we're finally at the dinner table, all we get are morsels? That seems totally fair.

Now you will get to eat the same stuff we did when the game launched, before CP and other various things lead to the power creep we have currently.

Okay, but putting aside the whole "heavy attacking isn't fun" and "infinite sustain doesn't exist outside of trials" arguments, that still doesn't create a level playing field. You (the veterans) have all of this fantastic endgame gear that you got as a result of this "power creep" and "OP sustain", and we don't. If we don't get it within the next month, anyway. Depending on how attainable the dps checks are for the new average dps, we may never have it. So I ask again, how is that fair?

Any argument of "well you'll just have to play better" is invalid. You didn't have to "play better" for the same rewards, so why should we?

There isn't an argument because none is needed. You're just going to have to deal with it.

The current state of the game doesn't fit the original scope for combat, nor does it fit the desired scope for combat going forward, and they are attempting to fix that.

Suck it up and play, or don't. It's pretty simple. Your complaints about not getting the same thing? So sorry. Should have been here earlier. It's like the dude who shows up 2 weeks after the sale at the store ends thinking he should get the deal. You missed out, it sucks, but that's no basis to change things or make things "fair" because you think you're entitled to something.

The general consensus (at least on here) is that the original scope of the game was bad. Those who are in support of the changes seem to be in the minority.

And your sale analogy doesn't fit too well either; it's more like a rookie player just drafted into a major league sport where they just now have banned doping, even though doping had been allowed for years and many players have rings / trophies / awards / records because they doped. Sorry I'm salty that I'm gonna have to work twice as hard for those achievements?

My point is that having a "suck it up buttercup" attitude is pretty detrimental to the health of the game as a whole. Indirectly punishing newer players because you personally don't like what the meta has become is terrible game design, and it's a great way to ensure zero or even negative game growth.

HugeMuffin

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

To revert rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep that has accumulated unanswered over the years.

The changes are still imperfect, but they're a good start.

Interesting, I have kind of heard a smaller explanation of this, but why do so many disagree?

Because these 'rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep' causing changes made it really easy to play this game. Now they are trying to fix that and it's going to raise the difficulty level back to where it should have been in the first place. This makes people mad.

Way back, ESO overland had some pretty difficult areas. Now we can just smash our faces into the keyboard and win because of power creep.

We should indeed feel stronger after spending countless hours upgrading our characters, and honing our ability to play, but at the same time the game has been getting easier and easier to surf through content because of the ability to pump out really high DPS and practically ignore sustain.

TLDR the little kiddies got used to being fed ice cream for dinner every night and are now throwing a temper tantrum when it's going back to healthy meals.

Except you lot have been eating ice cream for dinner every night for months / years. What about the rest of us? What about the new guys, or the newer guys who haven't made it to trials yet? I'm not even CP 160 yet, by your analogy I'm eating moldy breadcrumbs because I can't sustain to save my life and nothing is particularly easy.

Something that all the "you're just spoiled" PTS apologists keep conveniently forgetting is that players like us exist. In great numbers, in fact, thanks to all the recent promos and events / deals. You got to eat the ice cream for all this time, and now that we're finally at the dinner table, all we get are morsels? That seems totally fair.

Now you will get to eat the same stuff we did when the game launched, before CP and other various things lead to the power creep we have currently.

Okay, but putting aside the whole "heavy attacking isn't fun" and "infinite sustain doesn't exist outside of trials" arguments, that still doesn't create a level playing field. You (the veterans) have all of this fantastic endgame gear that you got as a result of this "power creep" and "OP sustain", and we don't. If we don't get it within the next month, anyway. Depending on how attainable the dps checks are for the new average dps, we may never have it. So I ask again, how is that fair?

Any argument of "well you'll just have to play better" is invalid. You didn't have to "play better" for the same rewards, so why should we?

There isn't an argument because none is needed. You're just going to have to deal with it.

The current state of the game doesn't fit the original scope for combat, nor does it fit the desired scope for combat going forward, and they are attempting to fix that.

Suck it up and play, or don't. It's pretty simple. Your complaints about not getting the same thing? So sorry. Should have been here earlier. It's like the dude who shows up 2 weeks after the sale at the store ends thinking he should get the deal. You missed out, it sucks, but that's no basis to change things or make things "fair" because you think you're entitled to something.

The general consensus (at least on here) is that the original scope of the game was bad. Those who are in support of the changes seem to be in the minority.

And your sale analogy doesn't fit too well either; it's more like a rookie player just drafted into a major league sport where they just now have banned doping, even though doping had been allowed for years and many players have rings / trophies / awards / records because they doped. Sorry I'm salty that I'm gonna have to work twice as hard for those achievements?

My point is that having a "suck it up buttercup" attitude is pretty detrimental to the health of the game as a whole. Indirectly punishing newer players because you personally don't like what the meta has become is terrible game design, and it's a great way to ensure zero or even negative game growth.

To add onto this, the "suck it up buttercup" attitude only comes across as "I got mine, I guess you're screwed." When I talk about what "got mine" is, I'm talking about skills and connections. If live right now is easy mode, then every single person who will be able to successfully run a veteran trial on june sixth will be able to do so only because of thier team mates and understanding of the mechanics that they learned in a pre-nerf world.

They'll still be able to compete because they "got theirs".

Saying "Suck it up buttercup" is more like the NFL draft skipping college and pulling right from highschool and expecting them to perform at the same levels as the guys who went through college. Of course the pros are going to be able to compete, they had a period of time where the game was forgiving enough to learn mechanics.

You can't say "L2P" in this new environment because these changes hurt those who are still learning to play hardest.

Really, it just shows a lack of empathy and a bit of survivor bias.

The_Lex

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

To revert rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep that has accumulated unanswered over the years.

The changes are still imperfect, but they're a good start.

This "power creep" is attributable to the current CP system. Time and time again, ZOS was warned that their concept of CPs would lead to the inevitible state in which we find ourselves. Yet, they did not heed the community feedback, so here we are...as predicted. They didn't heed the community then, and they are not heeding the community now.

Dorrino

Xvorg wrote: »

All builds look for max dmg with less sustain, so the full sustain option is not to be considered.

And ZOS's goal is that a higher sustain build to become an option thus increasing builds diversity.

Xvorg wrote: »

So I doubt people is gonna stack sustain, at least those who played here before 1.6... They are gonna take de advantage of the Heavy attack meta in Heavy armor.

I'm not sure why does it have to be a binary 'either full damage or full sustain'? ZOS tries to reintroduce a choice. If you feel that you need to go from full damage to full sustain, then ZOS failed to balance the numbers properly.

Right now, on pts this doesn't look to be the case though.

'Heavy attack or not heavy attack' might become a real choice because using a heavy attack is a dps loss. Using many heavy attacks leads to a higher dps loss. So it might be the case that switching some parts of a dps into sustain might result in a net dps gain, which, as i see it, is ZOS' goal here.

That you need to find a sweet-spot between dps loss from additional dmg-to-sustain changes and amount of heavy attacks required.

Cronopoly

Here's my take on which one I think ZOS is. Train Operator...

MasterSpatula

Sigtric wrote: »

It will make the open world more challenging in that we will start to have to pay attention to our resources again (and top end damage done by player characters overall is going to go down because of it + other damage reducing nerfs in this patch and previous -- and probably going forward)

If you're a skilled and elite player, overland content shouldn't be a challenge for you. It's not aimed at you. It's aimed at new players. Players learning the game. Maybe even players on their first MMO. Players with few character or player skills. Players with few passives. Players who have no clue what the passives do. Players without good gear. Players nowhere near trial readiness. Players who may never achieve trial readiness.

If you find clearing a Vet trial to be routine, the overland content is not aimed at you. It shouldn't be a challenge to you.

Thinking it should be is greedy and, frankly, kind of cruel. I, for one, am glad the game got "easier," because toxic filth like "TLDR the little kiddies got used to being fed ice cream for dinner every night and are now throwing a temper tantrum when it's going back to healthy meals. " used to be all over this forum, and it largely went away when selfish players who thought they were the only ones who matter moved on.

There's content aimed at a variety of skill levels in this game. If you think the stuff aimed at noobs should be aimed at elites, then you need to take a step back from yourself.

If you think Trials are too easy, that's a whole different discussion. But you said "open world," and if you're in Vet Trials at all, open world should be easy for you. It's not aimed at you.

Dyride

People aren't upset specifically because of sustain changes. Yeah it may feel like a reduction in power and feel handicapped similar to the power that was removed when they introduced CP .

The main thing that is frustrating is the homogenizing of classes and removing unique mechanisms like Repentance and Siphoning Attacks.

All in all, it is too much too fast.

apostate9

DragonBound wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

To revert rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep that has accumulated unanswered over the years.

The changes are still imperfect, but they're a good start.

Interesting, I have kind of heard a smaller explanation of this, but why do so many disagree?

Because they don't know how this game works, and like to see all the numbers on their character sheets go up indefinitely.

apostate9

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

To revert rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep that has accumulated unanswered over the years.

The changes are still imperfect, but they're a good start.

Interesting, I have kind of heard a smaller explanation of this, but why do so many disagree?

Because these 'rampant, degrading, unbridled power creep' causing changes made it really easy to play this game. Now they are trying to fix that and it's going to raise the difficulty level back to where it should have been in the first place. This makes people mad.

Way back, ESO overland had some pretty difficult areas. Now we can just smash our faces into the keyboard and win because of power creep.

We should indeed feel stronger after spending countless hours upgrading our characters, and honing our ability to play, but at the same time the game has been getting easier and easier to surf through content because of the ability to pump out really high DPS and practically ignore sustain.

TLDR the little kiddies got used to being fed ice cream for dinner every night and are now throwing a temper tantrum when it's going back to healthy meals.

Except you lot have been eating ice cream for dinner every night for months / years. What about the rest of us? What about the new guys, or the newer guys who haven't made it to trials yet? I'm not even CP 160 yet, by your analogy I'm eating moldy breadcrumbs because I can't sustain to save my life and nothing is particularly easy.

Something that all the "you're just spoiled" PTS apologists keep conveniently forgetting is that players like us exist. In great numbers, in fact, thanks to all the recent promos and events / deals. You got to eat the ice cream for all this time, and now that we're finally at the dinner table, all we get are morsels? That seems totally fair.

Now you will get to eat the same stuff we did when the game launched, before CP and other various things lead to the power creep we have currently.

Okay, but putting aside the whole "heavy attacking isn't fun" and "infinite sustain doesn't exist outside of trials" arguments, that still doesn't create a level playing field. You (the veterans) have all of this fantastic endgame gear that you got as a result of this "power creep" and "OP sustain", and we don't. If we don't get it within the next month, anyway. Depending on how attainable the dps checks are for the new average dps, we may never have it. So I ask again, how is that fair?

Any argument of "well you'll just have to play better" is invalid. You didn't have to "play better" for the same rewards, so why should we?

Uh...we did. We had soft caps, and mobs that could kill you once upon a time.