*The Role of Healing* - Giving Sorc, DK, and NB the means to be viable!...... and un-nerfing Templar

AlnilamE

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

If you are a healer, and you are intent on doing well at your role, you must utilize a handful of skills. This mainly applies to trial settings, where fights can get rather difficult. These skills are not dependent on your class:

• Healing Springs - Your main heal for trials since it's a HoT, and a fantastic way to AoE heal for low cost
• Inner Light - Gives higher critical chance making you more effective
• Combat Prayer - A strong heal that buffs group DPS
• Elemental Drain - Helps your group sustain Magicka
• Harness Magicka - Can save you from death and also regain Magicka at the same time
• Necrotic Orb - Helps your group sustain Magicka, plus can help with healing (healing morph only)
• Blockade of Storms - Group damage buff via CP passives (may no longer be used in Morrowind)
• War Horn - Grants powerful group buffs

Other skills (situational or optional): Efficient Purge, Ward Ally, Force Siphon, Barrier


There are 8 out of 12 skills which are almost mandatory for Healers to slot. Essentially, your class will decide which 3-4 active skills and 1 ultimate skill to slot for most endgame healers. Let's break down what each class currently provides Healers:


Dragonknight:
• Molten Weapons - Useful for when running content and people want to save weapon/spell pots
• Cauterize - Grants extra Critical chance and heals, though it is not worth using over Inner Light
• Igneous Shield - Grants a small damage shield to your group and grants you Major Mending
• Fiery Chains - A great way to reposition enemies for DPS to kill faster
• Choking Talons - Helps root enemies and lower their damage
• Spiked Amor - Gives you more survivability
• Obsidian Shard - Weak heal for one ally


Sorcerer:
• Boundless Storm - Gives you more survivability and speed
• Dark Conversion - Grants lots of Magicka if you have time for it
• Bound Aegis - Nice buff to your own heals and resistances, but it requires two slots!
• Absorption Field - Can be useful for handling Gargoyles in Hel Ra Citadel, though it is mediocre at best for an actual Healer
• Twilight Matriarch - Your main addition to healing, serving as a powerful burst heal, despite it requiring two slots and being killable!
• Empowered Ward - Shields you and your Twilight/grants the group 10% more Magicka Recovery, though you lose the Magicka restore from Harness Magicka


Nightblade
• Funnel Health - Mainly a skill for DPS, though it heals too
• Soul Siphon - Disappointing. A terrible ultimate meant for healing allies
• Mark Target - Debuffs enemies, though it generally useless because tanks will apply the same debuffs
• Refreshing Path - A pretty good HoT that Healers can certainly make use of, plus it also boosts movement speed
• Consuming Darkness - A powerful Ultimate that is great for reducing group damage taken and is definitely an asset to Healers


Templar:
• Breath of Life - Fantastic, reliable burst heal
• Nova - Powerful ultimate for reducing group damage taken
• Channeled Focus - Provides you good resistance as well as Magicka
• Power of the Light - Applies a small debuff to enemies to increase Stam DPS
• Healing Ritual - A strong AoE heal, though its cast time makes it not worth slotting over competing skills
• Cleansing Ritual - A great AoE HoT, granting the group a Purge synergy
• Luminous Shards - Great skill that returns has a powerful synergy to return the user Stamina, as well as a bit of extra Stamina and Magicka overtime
• Sacred Ground - A passive that must be mentioned, since it gives the caster near-100% uptime on Major Mending. It gives Minor Mending in Morrowind.


From reading over these skills, it is no secret why practically all healers are Templars. The other classes don't provide anywhere near what Templars do, having only a few legitimately good Healer skills in their entire toolkits. Templars also provide unique support options unavailable to Non-Templar Healers, which is probably due to them having a dedicated Healing skill line. It isn't particularly a bad thing that Templars have unique abilities. Wardens have unique and powerful healing abilities too, which is why they'll be fun to use. There is simply no reason to ever use a Dragonknight, Nightblade, or Sorcerer over a Templar or Warden when it comes to being a Healer.

To solve this, I believe it is time to take the useless skills and morphs of each of these three classes and make them strong for healers. We shouldn't nerf Templars class-defining skills to make them stand out less as healers. Rather, we should allow for these three classes to feel unique as well. If ZOS did this, we would not have to see our fellow Templar healers get nerfed so they can become almost equally as boring as their "competition"..

Here are my suggestions for buffing Dragonknight, Sorcerer, and Nightblade healers....

Dragonknight:
• Molten Weapons
- Grant 5% more heavy attack damage to your entire group
• Cauterize:
- Make this a very powerful group HoT
- Increase duration to 20 seconds
- Cast 2 fireballs every 5 seconds that buff allies, providing a powerful HoT on them for 10 seconds and increasing their damage done by 3%. The fireballs can also ricochet and strike 2 more nearby allies each (6 allies buffed per burst of healing fireballs)
• Igneous Shield:
- With the Morrowind nerf in mind, allow Major Mending to last 2 seconds after the shield expires
• Hardened Armor:
- Provide the damage shield to nearby allies as well
- Grant Minor Mending to the caster for 10 seconds
• Obsidian Shard
- Grants the affected ally Minor Vitality for 6 seconds as well (helpful for when they take high burst damage)


Sorcerer:
• Shattering Prison:
- This useless morph of Encase is replaced with Healing Prison
- Immobilization now lasts 2 seconds
- Now leaves behind a patch of light small HoT that heals allies for 10 seconds when enemies escape from the immobilization or the duration expires
- One ally can activate the Dark Pledge synergy, granting them 25% of both their Magic and Stamina over 10 seconds, but also causing them to receive 50% less healing from their own healing dealt as well as 50% less resource regeneration for 10 seconds.
• Twilight Matriarch:
- Give this pet the ability to survive an attack that would normally kill it every 30 seconds, instead pushing the Twilight to 1 Health
• Crystal Blast:
- Change this useless morph of Crystal Shards to Crystal Rejuvenation
- This ability now has a 4 second cast time, and costs as much Magicka as Purge from the Support skill line
- Raises a crystal obelisk from the floor (ground-targeted) that heals allies near it (10m) every second for 15 seconds.
- You have a 1% chance when you heal an ally below 60% health (by any means of healing) to grant the proc for this ability
- The proc makes Crystal Rejuvenation instacast, cost 50% less Magicka, and last 25 seconds
- There is cooldown of 25 seconds on the proc


Nightblade
• Soul Siphon
- Change this ability, cause it's currently terrible
- Lays a rune on the floor as large as a Templar's Cleansing Ritual, providing a decently strong HoT for 16 seconds, and additional healing afterward for an additional 10 seconds.
- The rune pulses the Major Vitality buff every 8 seconds while the rune lasts, with the buff lasting 3 seconds.
• Reaper's Mark:
- Buff this morph of Mark Target to also debuff the Marked enemy with Minor Lifesteal
• Prolonged Suffering:
- Change this useless morph of Agony to Fatiguing Siphon
- Ability now causes the afflicted enemy (whether CCed or not) to pulse health every 1 second to your nearby allies for 8 seconds.
- A Siphon Stamina synergy will appear, granting the synergy user some Stamina over time (equal to that of Spear Shards, sharing a cooldown)
• Leeching Strikes:
- This morph changes into Affinity
- Now costs Magicka, and returns a small amount of Magicka every second when healing an ally
- Grants the user Minor Mending and well as 10% increased resurrection speed
- Has a 10% chance when active and healing an ally below 50% health to grant you 1 Utlimate every second for 3 seconds. Has a cooldown of 3 seconds.

Templar:
• Sacred Ground
- Leave this passive as it is in Morrowind, giving Minor Mending to the caster
• Rune Focus
- Grant Major Mending for 8 seconds on cast
• Luminous Shards:
- Unlink the synergy cooldown from this skill from that of Necrotic Orb. Allow this skill to only restore Stamina.
- Link the synergy cooldoown from this skill to the new Nightblade Fatiguing Siphon skill synergy, Siphon Stamina
• Repentance:
- Allow this morph to return Stamina to allies again
- Reduce the Stamina return to allies by 50%

General
• Necrotic Orbs: Restores Magicka again, as well as to allies.

Anyway, whether you like the changes I propose or not, I'd like you to think about the situation we are currently in. I believe some of these changes at least would help our currently weak Healer classes feel unique and even useful beside Templars and Wardens. Would you like to see Dragonknights, Sorcerers, and Nightblades made strong and unique healers in different ways than Templars and Wardens? Or would you rather Templar and Warden get weaker, have Templar class-defining skills nerfed, and have all healers overtime become more similar and boring?

Here's hoping non-Templar/Warden Healers don't get laughed at their entire lives going forward after Morrowind.....

Your heart is in the right place.. non templar healers need to have prominence.

However you are a little misguided, raw healing capabilities between the 4 classes has always been relatively on par, that isn't an opinion. It's important to note something that I have been saying for years and something that rich just recently explained on eso live. Class skills are weighted differently and are balanced around the availability of the universal skill lines. This is why when you have a dedicated healing skill line in the templar and warden it does not mean, by very design philosophy from the devs, that they are the exclusive intended healers. It simply means their compensation for the resto staff is to a lesser extent than the other classes in the same healer role. The skills available from both warden and templar's healing skill lines are parrallels more than they are additional layers to the resto staff skills.

Increasing the raw healing capabilities of dk sorc and nb will not solve anything as they already push out raw healing comparable to both warden and templar, as I have tested on beta. The primary issue has always been the lack of a critical utility. A utility that Templars had exclusive access to.

Your run down on the non templar healer offerings was a bit disingenuous if I'm being honest. Unfortunately there are far too many people playing this game that will chose to remain ignorant to the fact that healing as a role is not relegated to the 2 classes with innate healing skill lines. Frankly based solely on very rigorous testing in the current beta, having a non templar healer environment is entirely viable in the hardest pve content. But too few players are going to realize that. They only ones laughing at non Templar healers are lesser players.

I see what your saying, but I just cannot agree with it. Sure you could say NB, DK, ans Sorc healers are entirely viable, but why take one? They bring nothing to the table, and non-super hardcore players won't be able to make them work like those in the "0.1% of players" can. Templars and Wardens are vastly superior because they easier to use, and bring unique, powerful skills to the table whereas the other three classes are simply worse for the job.

In short, no matter how you spin it, you cannot tell me that at least 95% of endgame healers aren't Templars (and soon split with Wardens).

ZOS decided to nerf Templars because they wanted to make DKs, Sorcs and NBs more desireable, as stated on ESO Live. Though some nerfing was fine, they changed a few class-defining skills in ways that removed effected entirely or equallized them to skills available to everyone.

The purpose of this post was to say that we did not need to nerf the uniqueness of Templar. Rather, we can make the three non-unique healing classes feel unique by giving them access to healing buffs as well as new, interesting ways of healing.

My suggestions are just some ideas I thought of for the general direction I'd like to see in giving every class a different feel for the role whilst making all of them viable. I only hope for Healing to be a role not solely comprised of Templars and Wardens when it'd be so easy to fix the situation.

By which you mean they don't have Shards. That's all it is about, isn't it?

And you will take Shattering Prison away from my sorc over her dead body.

Vaoh

AlnilamE wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

If you are a healer, and you are intent on doing well at your role, you must utilize a handful of skills. This mainly applies to trial settings, where fights can get rather difficult. These skills are not dependent on your class:

• Healing Springs - Your main heal for trials since it's a HoT, and a fantastic way to AoE heal for low cost
• Inner Light - Gives higher critical chance making you more effective
• Combat Prayer - A strong heal that buffs group DPS
• Elemental Drain - Helps your group sustain Magicka
• Harness Magicka - Can save you from death and also regain Magicka at the same time
• Necrotic Orb - Helps your group sustain Magicka, plus can help with healing (healing morph only)
• Blockade of Storms - Group damage buff via CP passives (may no longer be used in Morrowind)
• War Horn - Grants powerful group buffs

Other skills (situational or optional): Efficient Purge, Ward Ally, Force Siphon, Barrier


There are 8 out of 12 skills which are almost mandatory for Healers to slot. Essentially, your class will decide which 3-4 active skills and 1 ultimate skill to slot for most endgame healers. Let's break down what each class currently provides Healers:


Dragonknight:
• Molten Weapons - Useful for when running content and people want to save weapon/spell pots
• Cauterize - Grants extra Critical chance and heals, though it is not worth using over Inner Light
• Igneous Shield - Grants a small damage shield to your group and grants you Major Mending
• Fiery Chains - A great way to reposition enemies for DPS to kill faster
• Choking Talons - Helps root enemies and lower their damage
• Spiked Amor - Gives you more survivability
• Obsidian Shard - Weak heal for one ally


Sorcerer:
• Boundless Storm - Gives you more survivability and speed
• Dark Conversion - Grants lots of Magicka if you have time for it
• Bound Aegis - Nice buff to your own heals and resistances, but it requires two slots!
• Absorption Field - Can be useful for handling Gargoyles in Hel Ra Citadel, though it is mediocre at best for an actual Healer
• Twilight Matriarch - Your main addition to healing, serving as a powerful burst heal, despite it requiring two slots and being killable!
• Empowered Ward - Shields you and your Twilight/grants the group 10% more Magicka Recovery, though you lose the Magicka restore from Harness Magicka


Nightblade
• Funnel Health - Mainly a skill for DPS, though it heals too
• Soul Siphon - Disappointing. A terrible ultimate meant for healing allies
• Mark Target - Debuffs enemies, though it generally useless because tanks will apply the same debuffs
• Refreshing Path - A pretty good HoT that Healers can certainly make use of, plus it also boosts movement speed
• Consuming Darkness - A powerful Ultimate that is great for reducing group damage taken and is definitely an asset to Healers


Templar:
• Breath of Life - Fantastic, reliable burst heal
• Nova - Powerful ultimate for reducing group damage taken
• Channeled Focus - Provides you good resistance as well as Magicka
• Power of the Light - Applies a small debuff to enemies to increase Stam DPS
• Healing Ritual - A strong AoE heal, though its cast time makes it not worth slotting over competing skills
• Cleansing Ritual - A great AoE HoT, granting the group a Purge synergy
• Luminous Shards - Great skill that returns has a powerful synergy to return the user Stamina, as well as a bit of extra Stamina and Magicka overtime
• Sacred Ground - A passive that must be mentioned, since it gives the caster near-100% uptime on Major Mending. It gives Minor Mending in Morrowind.


From reading over these skills, it is no secret why practically all healers are Templars. The other classes don't provide anywhere near what Templars do, having only a few legitimately good Healer skills in their entire toolkits. Templars also provide unique support options unavailable to Non-Templar Healers, which is probably due to them having a dedicated Healing skill line. It isn't particularly a bad thing that Templars have unique abilities. Wardens have unique and powerful healing abilities too, which is why they'll be fun to use. There is simply no reason to ever use a Dragonknight, Nightblade, or Sorcerer over a Templar or Warden when it comes to being a Healer.

To solve this, I believe it is time to take the useless skills and morphs of each of these three classes and make them strong for healers. We shouldn't nerf Templars class-defining skills to make them stand out less as healers. Rather, we should allow for these three classes to feel unique as well. If ZOS did this, we would not have to see our fellow Templar healers get nerfed so they can become almost equally as boring as their "competition"..

Here are my suggestions for buffing Dragonknight, Sorcerer, and Nightblade healers....

Dragonknight:
• Molten Weapons
- Grant 5% more heavy attack damage to your entire group
• Cauterize:
- Make this a very powerful group HoT
- Increase duration to 20 seconds
- Cast 2 fireballs every 5 seconds that buff allies, providing a powerful HoT on them for 10 seconds and increasing their damage done by 3%. The fireballs can also ricochet and strike 2 more nearby allies each (6 allies buffed per burst of healing fireballs)
• Igneous Shield:
- With the Morrowind nerf in mind, allow Major Mending to last 2 seconds after the shield expires
• Hardened Armor:
- Provide the damage shield to nearby allies as well
- Grant Minor Mending to the caster for 10 seconds
• Obsidian Shard
- Grants the affected ally Minor Vitality for 6 seconds as well (helpful for when they take high burst damage)


Sorcerer:
• Shattering Prison:
- This useless morph of Encase is replaced with Healing Prison
- Immobilization now lasts 2 seconds
- Now leaves behind a patch of light small HoT that heals allies for 10 seconds when enemies escape from the immobilization or the duration expires
- One ally can activate the Dark Pledge synergy, granting them 25% of both their Magic and Stamina over 10 seconds, but also causing them to receive 50% less healing from their own healing dealt as well as 50% less resource regeneration for 10 seconds.
• Twilight Matriarch:
- Give this pet the ability to survive an attack that would normally kill it every 30 seconds, instead pushing the Twilight to 1 Health
• Crystal Blast:
- Change this useless morph of Crystal Shards to Crystal Rejuvenation
- This ability now has a 4 second cast time, and costs as much Magicka as Purge from the Support skill line
- Raises a crystal obelisk from the floor (ground-targeted) that heals allies near it (10m) every second for 15 seconds.
- You have a 1% chance when you heal an ally below 60% health (by any means of healing) to grant the proc for this ability
- The proc makes Crystal Rejuvenation instacast, cost 50% less Magicka, and last 25 seconds
- There is cooldown of 25 seconds on the proc


Nightblade
• Soul Siphon
- Change this ability, cause it's currently terrible
- Lays a rune on the floor as large as a Templar's Cleansing Ritual, providing a decently strong HoT for 16 seconds, and additional healing afterward for an additional 10 seconds.
- The rune pulses the Major Vitality buff every 8 seconds while the rune lasts, with the buff lasting 3 seconds.
• Reaper's Mark:
- Buff this morph of Mark Target to also debuff the Marked enemy with Minor Lifesteal
• Prolonged Suffering:
- Change this useless morph of Agony to Fatiguing Siphon
- Ability now causes the afflicted enemy (whether CCed or not) to pulse health every 1 second to your nearby allies for 8 seconds.
- A Siphon Stamina synergy will appear, granting the synergy user some Stamina over time (equal to that of Spear Shards, sharing a cooldown)
• Leeching Strikes:
- This morph changes into Affinity
- Now costs Magicka, and returns a small amount of Magicka every second when healing an ally
- Grants the user Minor Mending and well as 10% increased resurrection speed
- Has a 10% chance when active and healing an ally below 50% health to grant you 1 Utlimate every second for 3 seconds. Has a cooldown of 3 seconds.

Templar:
• Sacred Ground
- Leave this passive as it is in Morrowind, giving Minor Mending to the caster
• Rune Focus
- Grant Major Mending for 8 seconds on cast
• Luminous Shards:
- Unlink the synergy cooldown from this skill from that of Necrotic Orb. Allow this skill to only restore Stamina.
- Link the synergy cooldoown from this skill to the new Nightblade Fatiguing Siphon skill synergy, Siphon Stamina
• Repentance:
- Allow this morph to return Stamina to allies again
- Reduce the Stamina return to allies by 50%

General
• Necrotic Orbs: Restores Magicka again, as well as to allies.

Anyway, whether you like the changes I propose or not, I'd like you to think about the situation we are currently in. I believe some of these changes at least would help our currently weak Healer classes feel unique and even useful beside Templars and Wardens. Would you like to see Dragonknights, Sorcerers, and Nightblades made strong and unique healers in different ways than Templars and Wardens? Or would you rather Templar and Warden get weaker, have Templar class-defining skills nerfed, and have all healers overtime become more similar and boring?

Here's hoping non-Templar/Warden Healers don't get laughed at their entire lives going forward after Morrowind.....

Your heart is in the right place.. non templar healers need to have prominence.

However you are a little misguided, raw healing capabilities between the 4 classes has always been relatively on par, that isn't an opinion. It's important to note something that I have been saying for years and something that rich just recently explained on eso live. Class skills are weighted differently and are balanced around the availability of the universal skill lines. This is why when you have a dedicated healing skill line in the templar and warden it does not mean, by very design philosophy from the devs, that they are the exclusive intended healers. It simply means their compensation for the resto staff is to a lesser extent than the other classes in the same healer role. The skills available from both warden and templar's healing skill lines are parrallels more than they are additional layers to the resto staff skills.

Increasing the raw healing capabilities of dk sorc and nb will not solve anything as they already push out raw healing comparable to both warden and templar, as I have tested on beta. The primary issue has always been the lack of a critical utility. A utility that Templars had exclusive access to.

Your run down on the non templar healer offerings was a bit disingenuous if I'm being honest. Unfortunately there are far too many people playing this game that will chose to remain ignorant to the fact that healing as a role is not relegated to the 2 classes with innate healing skill lines. Frankly based solely on very rigorous testing in the current beta, having a non templar healer environment is entirely viable in the hardest pve content. But too few players are going to realize that. They only ones laughing at non Templar healers are lesser players.

I see what your saying, but I just cannot agree with it. Sure you could say NB, DK, ans Sorc healers are entirely viable, but why take one? They bring nothing to the table, and non-super hardcore players won't be able to make them work like those in the "0.1% of players" can. Templars and Wardens are vastly superior because they easier to use, and bring unique, powerful skills to the table whereas the other three classes are simply worse for the job.

In short, no matter how you spin it, you cannot tell me that at least 95% of endgame healers aren't Templars (and soon split with Wardens).

ZOS decided to nerf Templars because they wanted to make DKs, Sorcs and NBs more desireable, as stated on ESO Live. Though some nerfing was fine, they changed a few class-defining skills in ways that removed effected entirely or equallized them to skills available to everyone.

The purpose of this post was to say that we did not need to nerf the uniqueness of Templar. Rather, we can make the three non-unique healing classes feel unique by giving them access to healing buffs as well as new, interesting ways of healing.

My suggestions are just some ideas I thought of for the general direction I'd like to see in giving every class a different feel for the role whilst making all of them viable. I only hope for Healing to be a role not solely comprised of Templars and Wardens when it'd be so easy to fix the situation.

By which you mean they don't have Shards. That's all it is about, isn't it?

And you will take Shattering Prison away from my sorc over her dead body.

LOL. Templars have a lot more than Shards.

.... no way you just defended Shattering Prison. So I'm guessing that changing Crystal Blast would be a crazy suggestion as well

exeeter702

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

1. Templars (and Wardens) are the only accepted healers, even with the nerfs.

2. Sorcs/DKs/NBs will never be on par unless Templars lose every unique skill they have. To get these three classes on par, they need a few of their own powerful, *unique* Healer-oriented skills.

3. Tanks are strictly DKs (or Wardens). There is no reason to take DKs/Sorcs/Templars because they lack the sheer amount of support that their competitors have. This is a different topic of discussion and it'd take a lengthy thread to go in detail

Here's your typical strong Morrowind trial group:
Main Tank: DK/Warden
Off tank: DK/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
DPS: Can't confirm what the best setups for DPS are yet.

I want Templars to keep the Major Mending nerf that replaced it with Minor Mending, but also tie Major Mending to Rune Focus. Repentance should not have its allied Stamina return removed, but rather decreased by 50%. Spear Shards should have its synergy made unique again. At the same time buff the three underperforming healing specs. I laid out my ideas for these changes more detailed in the main post.

Just my thoughts on the role of healing at least

@Vaoh

If a Templar can tank the most challenging trial in HM today when can they not do it in Morrowind?

They absolutely can. The luminous shard change helps templar tanks immensely. The only thing dk tanks provide is a single block value passive and ult gen, that alone somehow established them as primary tanks. *shrug.

No, talons chains inhale minor maim do not make the tank in vet trials.

DKs have more than that One of their most powerful skills is Obsidian Shield, which is a fantastic support skill that provides your group small, spammable damage shields, grants you Major Mending, gives back Stamina, and provides you easy access to a powerful Ultimate-restoring passive.

Doesn't matter if the tank can sustain well casting tons of shards everywhere. You're making the most common mistake of endgame tanks. What separates really good tanks from those mediocre tanks that could never make it on raid teams is one thing - Support.

Tanking in ESO is very easy if you spec for it. A good tank for trials does not spec with tanking sets. They spec with Group Support sets and provide as much Group Support as possible, since the inherent job of tanking is doable this way as a DK. Alkosh, Ebon Armory, Powerful Assault, etc.

Healing is the same. Instead of wearing sets that increase your sustain like Lich, you slot Group Support sets like Worm Cult, Spell Power Cure, Hircine's Veneer, Healing Mage (Mending set), etc.

Like I said to the other guy, you can certainly tank on any class, and heal on any class, as well as DPS on a Stam NB as opposed to Magicka Sorc on live

If you want to be effective though, you'll stick to the classes that are tremendously more fitting for certain roles than others.

Tremendously more fitting.... It's hyperbolic comments like these that suggest you have had very little experience on how the game will play in morrowind.

There is nothing tremendous about a dk tank vs the alternatives. That is not an opinion. Not as it currently exists on the pts. And no igneous is not a key ingredient. It is key for mountains blessing and helping hands, however a dk healer in the same position will provide the same effect albeit marginally lower due to the shield scaling off of max health.

From a fundamental standpoint based solely on the passives and accessible tools, healing is comparable between all of the classes. Templar has a numerical advantage in possessing minor mending outside of healers habit (which no healer is going to ever use) and a more reliable form of resource restore in shards vs orbs. Outside if that, your comparisons are entirely lacking and framed in a dissmisive way.

I dont like classes getting needed any more than the next guy. But Templars have had a monopoly on the healer role for a very long time. From actual knowledgeable players it was understood due strictly to stamina utility, that no other healer had. And from entirely ignorant non healer players that assumed Templars were the only healers because they have a healing skill line and only ever see templar healers. It had nothing to do with major mending uptime or raw healing output.

This is not a special snowflake "I'm being unique guys!" Mentality. Do not liken this to the resto staff bow bosmer tree wizard player wanting to participate in a vet trial. the non templar healers do not need a healing outout increase. Among your other suggestions would create a grossly unbalanced healer meta in favor of non Templars. Your suggestions suggest you understand non templar healing very little and have had no experience with the game environment that will exist come June.

Templar has not lost their identity or relevance with the nerfs. Repentance nerf was simply collateral because of the overall changes to resource management, and major mending removal uptime has been nerfed across the board. I would actually be surprised if it isn't again changed for DKs as at the moment they are coming out ahead of Templars in healing through-put by a small amount. You would know this if you had hands on time rather then going off pure conjecture and speculation.

Vaoh

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

1. Templars (and Wardens) are the only accepted healers, even with the nerfs.

2. Sorcs/DKs/NBs will never be on par unless Templars lose every unique skill they have. To get these three classes on par, they need a few of their own powerful, *unique* Healer-oriented skills.

3. Tanks are strictly DKs (or Wardens). There is no reason to take DKs/Sorcs/Templars because they lack the sheer amount of support that their competitors have. This is a different topic of discussion and it'd take a lengthy thread to go in detail

Here's your typical strong Morrowind trial group:
Main Tank: DK/Warden
Off tank: DK/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
DPS: Can't confirm what the best setups for DPS are yet.

I want Templars to keep the Major Mending nerf that replaced it with Minor Mending, but also tie Major Mending to Rune Focus. Repentance should not have its allied Stamina return removed, but rather decreased by 50%. Spear Shards should have its synergy made unique again. At the same time buff the three underperforming healing specs. I laid out my ideas for these changes more detailed in the main post.

Just my thoughts on the role of healing at least

@Vaoh

If a Templar can tank the most challenging trial in HM today when can they not do it in Morrowind?

They absolutely can. The luminous shard change helps templar tanks immensely. The only thing dk tanks provide is a single block value passive and ult gen, that alone somehow established them as primary tanks. *shrug.

No, talons chains inhale minor maim do not make the tank in vet trials.

DKs have more than that One of their most powerful skills is Obsidian Shield, which is a fantastic support skill that provides your group small, spammable damage shields, grants you Major Mending, gives back Stamina, and provides you easy access to a powerful Ultimate-restoring passive.

Doesn't matter if the tank can sustain well casting tons of shards everywhere. You're making the most common mistake of endgame tanks. What separates really good tanks from those mediocre tanks that could never make it on raid teams is one thing - Support.

Tanking in ESO is very easy if you spec for it. A good tank for trials does not spec with tanking sets. They spec with Group Support sets and provide as much Group Support as possible, since the inherent job of tanking is doable this way as a DK. Alkosh, Ebon Armory, Powerful Assault, etc.

Healing is the same. Instead of wearing sets that increase your sustain like Lich, you slot Group Support sets like Worm Cult, Spell Power Cure, Hircine's Veneer, Healing Mage (Mending set), etc.

Like I said to the other guy, you can certainly tank on any class, and heal on any class, as well as DPS on a Stam NB as opposed to Magicka Sorc on live

If you want to be effective though, you'll stick to the classes that are tremendously more fitting for certain roles than others.

Tremendously more fitting.... It's hyperbolic comments like these that suggest you have had very little experience on how the game will play in morrowind.

There is nothing tremendous about a dk tank vs the alternatives. That is not an opinion. Not as it currently exists on the pts. And no igneous is not a key ingredient. It is key for mountains blessing and helping hands, however a dk healer in the same position will provide the same effect albeit marginally lower due to the shield scaling off of max health.

From a fundamental standpoint based solely on the passives and accessible tools, healing is comparable between all of the classes. Templar has a numerical advantage in possessing minor mending outside of healers habit (which no healer is going to ever use) and a more reliable form of resource restore in shards vs orbs. Outside if that, your comparisons are entirely lacking and framed in a dissmisive way.

I dont like classes getting needed any more than the next guy. But Templars have had a monopoly on the healer role for a very long time. From actual knowledgeable players it was understood due strictly to stamina utility, that no other healer had. And from entirely ignorant non healer players that assumed Templars were the only healers because they have a healing skill line and only ever see templar healers. It had nothing to do with major mending uptime or raw healing output.

This is not a special snowflake "I'm being unique guys!" Mentality. Do not liken this to the resto staff bow bosmer tree wizard player wanting to participate in a vet trial. the non templar healers do not need a healing outout increase. Among your other suggestions would create a grossly unbalanced healer meta in favor of non Templars. Your suggestions suggest you understand non templar healing very little and have had no experience with the game environment that will exist come June.

Templar has not lost their identity or relevance with the nerfs. Repentance nerf was simply collateral because of the overall changes to resource management, and major mending removal uptime has been nerfed across the board. I would actually be surprised if it isn't again changed for DKs as at the moment they are coming out ahead of Templars in healing through-put by a small amount. You would know this if you had hands on time rather then going off pure conjecture and speculation.

Yep.... totally.

I know very little about ESO, pre-Morrowind or post-Morrowind. Nothing I've said could be remotely true and has no bearing with reality because *you*, the source of all things ESO, have spoken it. Doesn't matter that what I've said is proven by taking a look at leaderboards for 30 seconds or less or having any form of Vet trial experience

We aren't going to get anywhere here. I don't even disagree with you very much, but your argument is full of half-truths that completely skew and misinterpret what I say throughout this thread for the sole purpose of needing to argue your point rather than converse normally.

Just wait until Morrowind comes out and leaderboards are solely comprised of Templar/Warden Healers and DK/Warden tanks. Little else needs to be said than that. (currently leaderboards are Templar Healers and DK tanks)

DanaDark

Seems I must be a freak accident.

I play a Templar... tank. My favorite Healer in a group is sorcerer.

I have zero problems with this arrangement. No issues.

Leaderboards. Really? Always reminds me of those guys that step on the gas as though they are in the Daytona 500 just to end up sitting at the next light like everyone else.

I think the other healers are doing just fine.

Vaoh

DanaDark wrote: »

Seems I must be a freak accident.

I play a Templar... tank. My favorite Healer in a group is sorcerer.

I have zero problems with this arrangement. No issues.

Leaderboards. Really? Always reminds me of those guys that step on the gas as though they are in the Daytona 500 just to end up sitting at the next light like everyone else.

I think the other healers are doing just fine.

As long as you aren't looking to run endgame PvE content (Vet trials) then you're totally fine. You don't have to ever care about class balance because it only becomes an issue at endgame!

However, just because you think non-Templar healers are doing just fine when literally every Vet trial healer is a Templar (unless picking another class to fill a leaderboard spot for extra weekly rewards), it doesn't mean it is actually balanced. People think a lot of things about this game like the crowd shouting Warden is super OP and P2W that don't know what they're talking about.

AlnilamE

Vaoh wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

If you are a healer, and you are intent on doing well at your role, you must utilize a handful of skills. This mainly applies to trial settings, where fights can get rather difficult. These skills are not dependent on your class:

• Healing Springs - Your main heal for trials since it's a HoT, and a fantastic way to AoE heal for low cost
• Inner Light - Gives higher critical chance making you more effective
• Combat Prayer - A strong heal that buffs group DPS
• Elemental Drain - Helps your group sustain Magicka
• Harness Magicka - Can save you from death and also regain Magicka at the same time
• Necrotic Orb - Helps your group sustain Magicka, plus can help with healing (healing morph only)
• Blockade of Storms - Group damage buff via CP passives (may no longer be used in Morrowind)
• War Horn - Grants powerful group buffs

Other skills (situational or optional): Efficient Purge, Ward Ally, Force Siphon, Barrier


There are 8 out of 12 skills which are almost mandatory for Healers to slot. Essentially, your class will decide which 3-4 active skills and 1 ultimate skill to slot for most endgame healers. Let's break down what each class currently provides Healers:


Dragonknight:
• Molten Weapons - Useful for when running content and people want to save weapon/spell pots
• Cauterize - Grants extra Critical chance and heals, though it is not worth using over Inner Light
• Igneous Shield - Grants a small damage shield to your group and grants you Major Mending
• Fiery Chains - A great way to reposition enemies for DPS to kill faster
• Choking Talons - Helps root enemies and lower their damage
• Spiked Amor - Gives you more survivability
• Obsidian Shard - Weak heal for one ally


Sorcerer:
• Boundless Storm - Gives you more survivability and speed
• Dark Conversion - Grants lots of Magicka if you have time for it
• Bound Aegis - Nice buff to your own heals and resistances, but it requires two slots!
• Absorption Field - Can be useful for handling Gargoyles in Hel Ra Citadel, though it is mediocre at best for an actual Healer
• Twilight Matriarch - Your main addition to healing, serving as a powerful burst heal, despite it requiring two slots and being killable!
• Empowered Ward - Shields you and your Twilight/grants the group 10% more Magicka Recovery, though you lose the Magicka restore from Harness Magicka


Nightblade
• Funnel Health - Mainly a skill for DPS, though it heals too
• Soul Siphon - Disappointing. A terrible ultimate meant for healing allies
• Mark Target - Debuffs enemies, though it generally useless because tanks will apply the same debuffs
• Refreshing Path - A pretty good HoT that Healers can certainly make use of, plus it also boosts movement speed
• Consuming Darkness - A powerful Ultimate that is great for reducing group damage taken and is definitely an asset to Healers


Templar:
• Breath of Life - Fantastic, reliable burst heal
• Nova - Powerful ultimate for reducing group damage taken
• Channeled Focus - Provides you good resistance as well as Magicka
• Power of the Light - Applies a small debuff to enemies to increase Stam DPS
• Healing Ritual - A strong AoE heal, though its cast time makes it not worth slotting over competing skills
• Cleansing Ritual - A great AoE HoT, granting the group a Purge synergy
• Luminous Shards - Great skill that returns has a powerful synergy to return the user Stamina, as well as a bit of extra Stamina and Magicka overtime
• Sacred Ground - A passive that must be mentioned, since it gives the caster near-100% uptime on Major Mending. It gives Minor Mending in Morrowind.


From reading over these skills, it is no secret why practically all healers are Templars. The other classes don't provide anywhere near what Templars do, having only a few legitimately good Healer skills in their entire toolkits. Templars also provide unique support options unavailable to Non-Templar Healers, which is probably due to them having a dedicated Healing skill line. It isn't particularly a bad thing that Templars have unique abilities. Wardens have unique and powerful healing abilities too, which is why they'll be fun to use. There is simply no reason to ever use a Dragonknight, Nightblade, or Sorcerer over a Templar or Warden when it comes to being a Healer.

To solve this, I believe it is time to take the useless skills and morphs of each of these three classes and make them strong for healers. We shouldn't nerf Templars class-defining skills to make them stand out less as healers. Rather, we should allow for these three classes to feel unique as well. If ZOS did this, we would not have to see our fellow Templar healers get nerfed so they can become almost equally as boring as their "competition"..

Here are my suggestions for buffing Dragonknight, Sorcerer, and Nightblade healers....

Dragonknight:
• Molten Weapons
- Grant 5% more heavy attack damage to your entire group
• Cauterize:
- Make this a very powerful group HoT
- Increase duration to 20 seconds
- Cast 2 fireballs every 5 seconds that buff allies, providing a powerful HoT on them for 10 seconds and increasing their damage done by 3%. The fireballs can also ricochet and strike 2 more nearby allies each (6 allies buffed per burst of healing fireballs)
• Igneous Shield:
- With the Morrowind nerf in mind, allow Major Mending to last 2 seconds after the shield expires
• Hardened Armor:
- Provide the damage shield to nearby allies as well
- Grant Minor Mending to the caster for 10 seconds
• Obsidian Shard
- Grants the affected ally Minor Vitality for 6 seconds as well (helpful for when they take high burst damage)


Sorcerer:
• Shattering Prison:
- This useless morph of Encase is replaced with Healing Prison
- Immobilization now lasts 2 seconds
- Now leaves behind a patch of light small HoT that heals allies for 10 seconds when enemies escape from the immobilization or the duration expires
- One ally can activate the Dark Pledge synergy, granting them 25% of both their Magic and Stamina over 10 seconds, but also causing them to receive 50% less healing from their own healing dealt as well as 50% less resource regeneration for 10 seconds.
• Twilight Matriarch:
- Give this pet the ability to survive an attack that would normally kill it every 30 seconds, instead pushing the Twilight to 1 Health
• Crystal Blast:
- Change this useless morph of Crystal Shards to Crystal Rejuvenation
- This ability now has a 4 second cast time, and costs as much Magicka as Purge from the Support skill line
- Raises a crystal obelisk from the floor (ground-targeted) that heals allies near it (10m) every second for 15 seconds.
- You have a 1% chance when you heal an ally below 60% health (by any means of healing) to grant the proc for this ability
- The proc makes Crystal Rejuvenation instacast, cost 50% less Magicka, and last 25 seconds
- There is cooldown of 25 seconds on the proc


Nightblade
• Soul Siphon
- Change this ability, cause it's currently terrible
- Lays a rune on the floor as large as a Templar's Cleansing Ritual, providing a decently strong HoT for 16 seconds, and additional healing afterward for an additional 10 seconds.
- The rune pulses the Major Vitality buff every 8 seconds while the rune lasts, with the buff lasting 3 seconds.
• Reaper's Mark:
- Buff this morph of Mark Target to also debuff the Marked enemy with Minor Lifesteal
• Prolonged Suffering:
- Change this useless morph of Agony to Fatiguing Siphon
- Ability now causes the afflicted enemy (whether CCed or not) to pulse health every 1 second to your nearby allies for 8 seconds.
- A Siphon Stamina synergy will appear, granting the synergy user some Stamina over time (equal to that of Spear Shards, sharing a cooldown)
• Leeching Strikes:
- This morph changes into Affinity
- Now costs Magicka, and returns a small amount of Magicka every second when healing an ally
- Grants the user Minor Mending and well as 10% increased resurrection speed
- Has a 10% chance when active and healing an ally below 50% health to grant you 1 Utlimate every second for 3 seconds. Has a cooldown of 3 seconds.

Templar:
• Sacred Ground
- Leave this passive as it is in Morrowind, giving Minor Mending to the caster
• Rune Focus
- Grant Major Mending for 8 seconds on cast
• Luminous Shards:
- Unlink the synergy cooldown from this skill from that of Necrotic Orb. Allow this skill to only restore Stamina.
- Link the synergy cooldoown from this skill to the new Nightblade Fatiguing Siphon skill synergy, Siphon Stamina
• Repentance:
- Allow this morph to return Stamina to allies again
- Reduce the Stamina return to allies by 50%

General
• Necrotic Orbs: Restores Magicka again, as well as to allies.

Anyway, whether you like the changes I propose or not, I'd like you to think about the situation we are currently in. I believe some of these changes at least would help our currently weak Healer classes feel unique and even useful beside Templars and Wardens. Would you like to see Dragonknights, Sorcerers, and Nightblades made strong and unique healers in different ways than Templars and Wardens? Or would you rather Templar and Warden get weaker, have Templar class-defining skills nerfed, and have all healers overtime become more similar and boring?

Here's hoping non-Templar/Warden Healers don't get laughed at their entire lives going forward after Morrowind.....

Your heart is in the right place.. non templar healers need to have prominence.

However you are a little misguided, raw healing capabilities between the 4 classes has always been relatively on par, that isn't an opinion. It's important to note something that I have been saying for years and something that rich just recently explained on eso live. Class skills are weighted differently and are balanced around the availability of the universal skill lines. This is why when you have a dedicated healing skill line in the templar and warden it does not mean, by very design philosophy from the devs, that they are the exclusive intended healers. It simply means their compensation for the resto staff is to a lesser extent than the other classes in the same healer role. The skills available from both warden and templar's healing skill lines are parrallels more than they are additional layers to the resto staff skills.

Increasing the raw healing capabilities of dk sorc and nb will not solve anything as they already push out raw healing comparable to both warden and templar, as I have tested on beta. The primary issue has always been the lack of a critical utility. A utility that Templars had exclusive access to.

Your run down on the non templar healer offerings was a bit disingenuous if I'm being honest. Unfortunately there are far too many people playing this game that will chose to remain ignorant to the fact that healing as a role is not relegated to the 2 classes with innate healing skill lines. Frankly based solely on very rigorous testing in the current beta, having a non templar healer environment is entirely viable in the hardest pve content. But too few players are going to realize that. They only ones laughing at non Templar healers are lesser players.

I see what your saying, but I just cannot agree with it. Sure you could say NB, DK, ans Sorc healers are entirely viable, but why take one? They bring nothing to the table, and non-super hardcore players won't be able to make them work like those in the "0.1% of players" can. Templars and Wardens are vastly superior because they easier to use, and bring unique, powerful skills to the table whereas the other three classes are simply worse for the job.

In short, no matter how you spin it, you cannot tell me that at least 95% of endgame healers aren't Templars (and soon split with Wardens).

ZOS decided to nerf Templars because they wanted to make DKs, Sorcs and NBs more desireable, as stated on ESO Live. Though some nerfing was fine, they changed a few class-defining skills in ways that removed effected entirely or equallized them to skills available to everyone.

The purpose of this post was to say that we did not need to nerf the uniqueness of Templar. Rather, we can make the three non-unique healing classes feel unique by giving them access to healing buffs as well as new, interesting ways of healing.

My suggestions are just some ideas I thought of for the general direction I'd like to see in giving every class a different feel for the role whilst making all of them viable. I only hope for Healing to be a role not solely comprised of Templars and Wardens when it'd be so easy to fix the situation.

By which you mean they don't have Shards. That's all it is about, isn't it?

And you will take Shattering Prison away from my sorc over her dead body.

LOL. Templars have a lot more than Shards.

.... no way you just defended Shattering Prison. So I'm guessing that changing Crystal Blast would be a crazy suggestion as well

And the other classes also have things they bring to the table. You just think that the Templar is more important. They are just different.

You may not like shattering prison, but outside of PvP, I find it better to do damage after root rather than slow enemies.

I use Crystal Frags on my mag sorc, so I just read back on your suggestion and I sort of stopped at "cast time of 4 seconds". Do you really want a healer to be out of commission for 4 seconds?

exeeter702

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

1. Templars (and Wardens) are the only accepted healers, even with the nerfs.

2. Sorcs/DKs/NBs will never be on par unless Templars lose every unique skill they have. To get these three classes on par, they need a few of their own powerful, *unique* Healer-oriented skills.

3. Tanks are strictly DKs (or Wardens). There is no reason to take DKs/Sorcs/Templars because they lack the sheer amount of support that their competitors have. This is a different topic of discussion and it'd take a lengthy thread to go in detail

Here's your typical strong Morrowind trial group:
Main Tank: DK/Warden
Off tank: DK/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
DPS: Can't confirm what the best setups for DPS are yet.

I want Templars to keep the Major Mending nerf that replaced it with Minor Mending, but also tie Major Mending to Rune Focus. Repentance should not have its allied Stamina return removed, but rather decreased by 50%. Spear Shards should have its synergy made unique again. At the same time buff the three underperforming healing specs. I laid out my ideas for these changes more detailed in the main post.

Just my thoughts on the role of healing at least

@Vaoh

If a Templar can tank the most challenging trial in HM today when can they not do it in Morrowind?

They absolutely can. The luminous shard change helps templar tanks immensely. The only thing dk tanks provide is a single block value passive and ult gen, that alone somehow established them as primary tanks. *shrug.

No, talons chains inhale minor maim do not make the tank in vet trials.

DKs have more than that One of their most powerful skills is Obsidian Shield, which is a fantastic support skill that provides your group small, spammable damage shields, grants you Major Mending, gives back Stamina, and provides you easy access to a powerful Ultimate-restoring passive.

Doesn't matter if the tank can sustain well casting tons of shards everywhere. You're making the most common mistake of endgame tanks. What separates really good tanks from those mediocre tanks that could never make it on raid teams is one thing - Support.

Tanking in ESO is very easy if you spec for it. A good tank for trials does not spec with tanking sets. They spec with Group Support sets and provide as much Group Support as possible, since the inherent job of tanking is doable this way as a DK. Alkosh, Ebon Armory, Powerful Assault, etc.

Healing is the same. Instead of wearing sets that increase your sustain like Lich, you slot Group Support sets like Worm Cult, Spell Power Cure, Hircine's Veneer, Healing Mage (Mending set), etc.

Like I said to the other guy, you can certainly tank on any class, and heal on any class, as well as DPS on a Stam NB as opposed to Magicka Sorc on live

If you want to be effective though, you'll stick to the classes that are tremendously more fitting for certain roles than others.

Tremendously more fitting.... It's hyperbolic comments like these that suggest you have had very little experience on how the game will play in morrowind.

There is nothing tremendous about a dk tank vs the alternatives. That is not an opinion. Not as it currently exists on the pts. And no igneous is not a key ingredient. It is key for mountains blessing and helping hands, however a dk healer in the same position will provide the same effect albeit marginally lower due to the shield scaling off of max health.

From a fundamental standpoint based solely on the passives and accessible tools, healing is comparable between all of the classes. Templar has a numerical advantage in possessing minor mending outside of healers habit (which no healer is going to ever use) and a more reliable form of resource restore in shards vs orbs. Outside if that, your comparisons are entirely lacking and framed in a dissmisive way.

I dont like classes getting needed any more than the next guy. But Templars have had a monopoly on the healer role for a very long time. From actual knowledgeable players it was understood due strictly to stamina utility, that no other healer had. And from entirely ignorant non healer players that assumed Templars were the only healers because they have a healing skill line and only ever see templar healers. It had nothing to do with major mending uptime or raw healing output.

This is not a special snowflake "I'm being unique guys!" Mentality. Do not liken this to the resto staff bow bosmer tree wizard player wanting to participate in a vet trial. the non templar healers do not need a healing outout increase. Among your other suggestions would create a grossly unbalanced healer meta in favor of non Templars. Your suggestions suggest you understand non templar healing very little and have had no experience with the game environment that will exist come June.

Templar has not lost their identity or relevance with the nerfs. Repentance nerf was simply collateral because of the overall changes to resource management, and major mending removal uptime has been nerfed across the board. I would actually be surprised if it isn't again changed for DKs as at the moment they are coming out ahead of Templars in healing through-put by a small amount. You would know this if you had hands on time rather then going off pure conjecture and speculation.

Yep.... totally.

I know very little about ESO, pre-Morrowind or post-Morrowind. Nothing I've said could be remotely true and has no bearing with reality because *you*, the source of all things ESO, have spoken it. Doesn't matter that what I've said is proven by taking a look at leaderboards for 30 seconds or less or having any form of Vet trial experience

We aren't going to get anywhere here. I don't even disagree with you very much, but your argument is full of half-truths that completely skew and misinterpret what I say throughout this thread for the sole purpose of needing to argue your point rather than converse normally.

Just wait until Morrowind comes out and leaderboards are solely comprised of Templar/Warden Healers and DK/Warden tanks. Little else needs to be said than that. (currently leaderboards are Templar Healers and DK tanks)

Look, all im saying is some of things you have claimed in your OP are contrary to what is being seen in the current beta iteration and to a lesser extent on live. I am not trying to suggest you don't know the game. But your suggestions for non templar healers are far too generous well coupled with the changes to morrowind.

And you know what.. you are right, the leaderbaords will likely be as you say come morrowind. Now this is a bold claim on my behalf but one that I vehemently believe and one that causes me a lot of flame...

There are simply far too many players that are set in their ways in terms of which class is entitled to which role. It is for this very reason that so many templar healers (not all mind you) are upset with the nerfs. A grrat deal of them will never even bother running group make ups beyond the scope of their preconceived notion of what class constitutes healer or tank. And because of that, imo you will not see a change up in leaderboards, the incredibly small raiding community in this game does not even want to bother engaging the idea of a non templar healer strictly based on an established expectation regardless of the FACT that come morrowind, non templar healers are literally on par with one another.

ZOS could live stream a hm trial run of hof with 2 templar tanks and nb & dk healer, set a record time and still no one would even acknowledge it. This is a hypothetical I know but I truly believe leaderbaords are a poor indication due to the incredibly small sample size and the lack of even bothering humoring the thought of a non templar in the healing role. No one will test this in morrowind because no one will ever bother to accept it as an option. Thus no sample comparison can even be made despite raw numbers arguing the contrary.

Vaoh

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

1. Templars (and Wardens) are the only accepted healers, even with the nerfs.

2. Sorcs/DKs/NBs will never be on par unless Templars lose every unique skill they have. To get these three classes on par, they need a few of their own powerful, *unique* Healer-oriented skills.

3. Tanks are strictly DKs (or Wardens). There is no reason to take DKs/Sorcs/Templars because they lack the sheer amount of support that their competitors have. This is a different topic of discussion and it'd take a lengthy thread to go in detail

Here's your typical strong Morrowind trial group:
Main Tank: DK/Warden
Off tank: DK/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
DPS: Can't confirm what the best setups for DPS are yet.

I want Templars to keep the Major Mending nerf that replaced it with Minor Mending, but also tie Major Mending to Rune Focus. Repentance should not have its allied Stamina return removed, but rather decreased by 50%. Spear Shards should have its synergy made unique again. At the same time buff the three underperforming healing specs. I laid out my ideas for these changes more detailed in the main post.

Just my thoughts on the role of healing at least

@Vaoh

If a Templar can tank the most challenging trial in HM today when can they not do it in Morrowind?

They absolutely can. The luminous shard change helps templar tanks immensely. The only thing dk tanks provide is a single block value passive and ult gen, that alone somehow established them as primary tanks. *shrug.

No, talons chains inhale minor maim do not make the tank in vet trials.

DKs have more than that One of their most powerful skills is Obsidian Shield, which is a fantastic support skill that provides your group small, spammable damage shields, grants you Major Mending, gives back Stamina, and provides you easy access to a powerful Ultimate-restoring passive.

Doesn't matter if the tank can sustain well casting tons of shards everywhere. You're making the most common mistake of endgame tanks. What separates really good tanks from those mediocre tanks that could never make it on raid teams is one thing - Support.

Tanking in ESO is very easy if you spec for it. A good tank for trials does not spec with tanking sets. They spec with Group Support sets and provide as much Group Support as possible, since the inherent job of tanking is doable this way as a DK. Alkosh, Ebon Armory, Powerful Assault, etc.

Healing is the same. Instead of wearing sets that increase your sustain like Lich, you slot Group Support sets like Worm Cult, Spell Power Cure, Hircine's Veneer, Healing Mage (Mending set), etc.

Like I said to the other guy, you can certainly tank on any class, and heal on any class, as well as DPS on a Stam NB as opposed to Magicka Sorc on live

If you want to be effective though, you'll stick to the classes that are tremendously more fitting for certain roles than others.

Tremendously more fitting.... It's hyperbolic comments like these that suggest you have had very little experience on how the game will play in morrowind.

There is nothing tremendous about a dk tank vs the alternatives. That is not an opinion. Not as it currently exists on the pts. And no igneous is not a key ingredient. It is key for mountains blessing and helping hands, however a dk healer in the same position will provide the same effect albeit marginally lower due to the shield scaling off of max health.

From a fundamental standpoint based solely on the passives and accessible tools, healing is comparable between all of the classes. Templar has a numerical advantage in possessing minor mending outside of healers habit (which no healer is going to ever use) and a more reliable form of resource restore in shards vs orbs. Outside if that, your comparisons are entirely lacking and framed in a dissmisive way.

I dont like classes getting needed any more than the next guy. But Templars have had a monopoly on the healer role for a very long time. From actual knowledgeable players it was understood due strictly to stamina utility, that no other healer had. And from entirely ignorant non healer players that assumed Templars were the only healers because they have a healing skill line and only ever see templar healers. It had nothing to do with major mending uptime or raw healing output.

This is not a special snowflake "I'm being unique guys!" Mentality. Do not liken this to the resto staff bow bosmer tree wizard player wanting to participate in a vet trial. the non templar healers do not need a healing outout increase. Among your other suggestions would create a grossly unbalanced healer meta in favor of non Templars. Your suggestions suggest you understand non templar healing very little and have had no experience with the game environment that will exist come June.

Templar has not lost their identity or relevance with the nerfs. Repentance nerf was simply collateral because of the overall changes to resource management, and major mending removal uptime has been nerfed across the board. I would actually be surprised if it isn't again changed for DKs as at the moment they are coming out ahead of Templars in healing through-put by a small amount. You would know this if you had hands on time rather then going off pure conjecture and speculation.

Yep.... totally.

I know very little about ESO, pre-Morrowind or post-Morrowind. Nothing I've said could be remotely true and has no bearing with reality because *you*, the source of all things ESO, have spoken it. Doesn't matter that what I've said is proven by taking a look at leaderboards for 30 seconds or less or having any form of Vet trial experience

We aren't going to get anywhere here. I don't even disagree with you very much, but your argument is full of half-truths that completely skew and misinterpret what I say throughout this thread for the sole purpose of needing to argue your point rather than converse normally.

Just wait until Morrowind comes out and leaderboards are solely comprised of Templar/Warden Healers and DK/Warden tanks. Little else needs to be said than that. (currently leaderboards are Templar Healers and DK tanks)

Look, all im saying is some of things you have claimed in your OP are contrary to what is being seen in the current beta iteration and to a lesser extent on live. I am not trying to suggest you don't know the game. But your suggestions for non templar healers are far too generous well coupled with the changes to morrowind.

And you know what.. you are right, the leaderbaords will likely be as you say come morrowind. Now this is a bold claim on my behalf but one that I vehemently believe and one that causes me a lot of flame...

There are simply far too many players that are set in their ways in terms of which class is entitled to which role. It is for this very reason that so many templar healers (not all mind you) are upset with the nerfs. A grrat deal of them will never even bother running group make ups beyond the scope of their preconceived notion of what class constitutes healer or tank. And because of that, imo you will not see a change up in leaderboards, the incredibly small raiding community in this game does not even want to bother engaging the idea of a non templar healer strictly based on an established expectation regardless of the FACT that come morrowind, non templar healers are literally on par with one another.

ZOS could live stream a hm trial run of hof with 2 templar tanks and nb & dk healer, set a record time and still no one would even acknowledge it. This is a hypothetical I know but I truly believe leaderbaords are a poor indication due to the incredibly small sample size and the lack of even bothering humoring the thought of a non templar in the healing role. No one will test this in morrowind because no one will ever bother to accept it as an option. Thus no sample comparison can even be made despite raw numbers arguing the contrary.

Not necessarily.

Templar can certainly be replaced by leaderboard groups, but the sole reason they won't is because these groups need to be as efficient by using what's best. Max CP, gold gear, optimized CP allocation, optimized rotations, optimized classes for each role, etc.

Using Templar Healers and DK tanks is part of this because they offer lots of group utility, whereas others classes in those roles are mediocre in comparison.

You say non-Templar classes aren't given a chance anymore because we all preconcieve those classes as worse healers, but we've seen proof of the opposite.

On PTS, the new Warden class has proven to be a strong healer and tank. As a result, they'll be found all over leaderboards in Supoort roles. If they were OP for DPS you'd find them there too, but Wardens are currently bad for DPS. If Wardens were bad at healing, they'd be no different than DKs/Sorcs/NBs are for healing, meaning they too would see very little if any use for that particular role.

In other words, we'll run whatever is legitimately the "best class" for each role. When something is meta, it becomes this way due to it being superior over its competitors. Likewise on Live servers, practically every single DPS that was a Mag NB, including most Mag DKs and Mag Temps, have converted to Mag Sorcs. The reason: Mag Sorcs have better DPS

This makes it very clear. If we buff DKs/Sorcs/NBs by giving them powerful, unique healing tolls in place of their really terrible morphs, and buff their weak heals, they would also become desireable in endgame PvE content.

That's my opinion on it at least. It's cool if you disagree. I'm more than certain of this all though since it's a very simple pattern backed by the years of history this game has of balance changes.

Walties99

I've considered going sorc for the multiple Passives (10% recovery, 4% extra health with pet out, lightning form for additional concussion/implosion procs). We usually run 1-2 magplars with shards in their rotation and with repentance being gone, I'm not going to be targeting specific players besides the tank with shards anyways. Apparently some wardens aren't doing so well with being able to work all of their skills into a bar setup/rotation and still keep up lightning wall/ combat prayer/ e drain and keep people alive. My sorc plays exactly like a templar healer except I would swap 2 instant casts for 2 other instant cats and they have similar durations, but the benefits with templar passives and stam management being depleted don't match up to current sorc passives.

exeeter702

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

1. Templars (and Wardens) are the only accepted healers, even with the nerfs.

2. Sorcs/DKs/NBs will never be on par unless Templars lose every unique skill they have. To get these three classes on par, they need a few of their own powerful, *unique* Healer-oriented skills.

3. Tanks are strictly DKs (or Wardens). There is no reason to take DKs/Sorcs/Templars because they lack the sheer amount of support that their competitors have. This is a different topic of discussion and it'd take a lengthy thread to go in detail

Here's your typical strong Morrowind trial group:
Main Tank: DK/Warden
Off tank: DK/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
DPS: Can't confirm what the best setups for DPS are yet.

I want Templars to keep the Major Mending nerf that replaced it with Minor Mending, but also tie Major Mending to Rune Focus. Repentance should not have its allied Stamina return removed, but rather decreased by 50%. Spear Shards should have its synergy made unique again. At the same time buff the three underperforming healing specs. I laid out my ideas for these changes more detailed in the main post.

Just my thoughts on the role of healing at least

@Vaoh

If a Templar can tank the most challenging trial in HM today when can they not do it in Morrowind?

They absolutely can. The luminous shard change helps templar tanks immensely. The only thing dk tanks provide is a single block value passive and ult gen, that alone somehow established them as primary tanks. *shrug.

No, talons chains inhale minor maim do not make the tank in vet trials.

DKs have more than that One of their most powerful skills is Obsidian Shield, which is a fantastic support skill that provides your group small, spammable damage shields, grants you Major Mending, gives back Stamina, and provides you easy access to a powerful Ultimate-restoring passive.

Doesn't matter if the tank can sustain well casting tons of shards everywhere. You're making the most common mistake of endgame tanks. What separates really good tanks from those mediocre tanks that could never make it on raid teams is one thing - Support.

Tanking in ESO is very easy if you spec for it. A good tank for trials does not spec with tanking sets. They spec with Group Support sets and provide as much Group Support as possible, since the inherent job of tanking is doable this way as a DK. Alkosh, Ebon Armory, Powerful Assault, etc.

Healing is the same. Instead of wearing sets that increase your sustain like Lich, you slot Group Support sets like Worm Cult, Spell Power Cure, Hircine's Veneer, Healing Mage (Mending set), etc.

Like I said to the other guy, you can certainly tank on any class, and heal on any class, as well as DPS on a Stam NB as opposed to Magicka Sorc on live

If you want to be effective though, you'll stick to the classes that are tremendously more fitting for certain roles than others.

Tremendously more fitting.... It's hyperbolic comments like these that suggest you have had very little experience on how the game will play in morrowind.

There is nothing tremendous about a dk tank vs the alternatives. That is not an opinion. Not as it currently exists on the pts. And no igneous is not a key ingredient. It is key for mountains blessing and helping hands, however a dk healer in the same position will provide the same effect albeit marginally lower due to the shield scaling off of max health.

From a fundamental standpoint based solely on the passives and accessible tools, healing is comparable between all of the classes. Templar has a numerical advantage in possessing minor mending outside of healers habit (which no healer is going to ever use) and a more reliable form of resource restore in shards vs orbs. Outside if that, your comparisons are entirely lacking and framed in a dissmisive way.

I dont like classes getting needed any more than the next guy. But Templars have had a monopoly on the healer role for a very long time. From actual knowledgeable players it was understood due strictly to stamina utility, that no other healer had. And from entirely ignorant non healer players that assumed Templars were the only healers because they have a healing skill line and only ever see templar healers. It had nothing to do with major mending uptime or raw healing output.

This is not a special snowflake "I'm being unique guys!" Mentality. Do not liken this to the resto staff bow bosmer tree wizard player wanting to participate in a vet trial. the non templar healers do not need a healing outout increase. Among your other suggestions would create a grossly unbalanced healer meta in favor of non Templars. Your suggestions suggest you understand non templar healing very little and have had no experience with the game environment that will exist come June.

Templar has not lost their identity or relevance with the nerfs. Repentance nerf was simply collateral because of the overall changes to resource management, and major mending removal uptime has been nerfed across the board. I would actually be surprised if it isn't again changed for DKs as at the moment they are coming out ahead of Templars in healing through-put by a small amount. You would know this if you had hands on time rather then going off pure conjecture and speculation.

Yep.... totally.

I know very little about ESO, pre-Morrowind or post-Morrowind. Nothing I've said could be remotely true and has no bearing with reality because *you*, the source of all things ESO, have spoken it. Doesn't matter that what I've said is proven by taking a look at leaderboards for 30 seconds or less or having any form of Vet trial experience

We aren't going to get anywhere here. I don't even disagree with you very much, but your argument is full of half-truths that completely skew and misinterpret what I say throughout this thread for the sole purpose of needing to argue your point rather than converse normally.

Just wait until Morrowind comes out and leaderboards are solely comprised of Templar/Warden Healers and DK/Warden tanks. Little else needs to be said than that. (currently leaderboards are Templar Healers and DK tanks)

Look, all im saying is some of things you have claimed in your OP are contrary to what is being seen in the current beta iteration and to a lesser extent on live. I am not trying to suggest you don't know the game. But your suggestions for non templar healers are far too generous well coupled with the changes to morrowind.

And you know what.. you are right, the leaderbaords will likely be as you say come morrowind. Now this is a bold claim on my behalf but one that I vehemently believe and one that causes me a lot of flame...

There are simply far too many players that are set in their ways in terms of which class is entitled to which role. It is for this very reason that so many templar healers (not all mind you) are upset with the nerfs. A grrat deal of them will never even bother running group make ups beyond the scope of their preconceived notion of what class constitutes healer or tank. And because of that, imo you will not see a change up in leaderboards, the incredibly small raiding community in this game does not even want to bother engaging the idea of a non templar healer strictly based on an established expectation regardless of the FACT that come morrowind, non templar healers are literally on par with one another.

ZOS could live stream a hm trial run of hof with 2 templar tanks and nb & dk healer, set a record time and still no one would even acknowledge it. This is a hypothetical I know but I truly believe leaderbaords are a poor indication due to the incredibly small sample size and the lack of even bothering humoring the thought of a non templar in the healing role. No one will test this in morrowind because no one will ever bother to accept it as an option. Thus no sample comparison can even be made despite raw numbers arguing the contrary.

Not necessarily.

Templar can certainly be replaced by leaderboard groups, but the sole reason they won't is because these groups need to be as efficient by using what's best. Max CP, gold gear, optimized CP allocation, optimized rotations, optimized classes for each role, etc.

Using Templar Healers and DK tanks is part of this because they offer lots of group utility, whereas others classes in those roles are mediocre in comparison.

You say non-Templar classes aren't given a chance anymore because we all preconcieve those classes as worse healers, but we've seen proof of the opposite.

On PTS, the new Warden class has proven to be a strong healer and tank. As a result, they'll be found all over leaderboards in Supoort roles. If they were OP for DPS you'd find them there too, but Wardens are currently bad for DPS. If Wardens were bad at healing, they'd be no different than DKs/Sorcs/NBs are for healing, meaning they too would see very little if any use for that particular role.

In other words, we'll run whatever is legitimately the "best class" for each role. When something is meta, it becomes this way due to it being superior over its competitors. Likewise on Live servers, practically every single DPS that was a Mag NB, including most Mag DKs and Mag Temps, have converted to Mag Sorcs. The reason: Mag Sorcs have better DPS

This makes it very clear. If we buff DKs/Sorcs/NBs by giving them powerful, unique healing tolls in place of their really terrible morphs, and buff their weak heals, they would also become desireable in endgame PvE content.

That's my opinion on it at least. It's cool if you disagree. I'm more than certain of this all though since it's a very simple pattern backed by the years of history this game has of balance changes.

My point is that noone tests the competition to begin with because they do no not acknowledge that there is any competitor to the healer role at all.

Think about this for a second, why are wardens getting tested in the healer role? Essentially and factually in beta atm they are no more or less potent as a healer as any of the other class both in healing output and utility. This is confirmed by those that are testing it whom which I have had the privilege of playing with these last 2 weeks. Yet strictly because they have a "Healing skill line" the majority of people are by default assuming they are going to be the only other healer next to templar. That is frankly ridiculous. It is an uninformed opinion that is woefully innacurate. But it will not matter because of the logic set in place going forward. You see it everywhere on the forums right now and it's nauseating.

Same goes for warden tanks... quite literally they are on par with templar and dk right now yet because they have an identifiable "tank" skill line which is purely thematic, they are getting an auto pass from the average player into the tank role along side the DK. No one wants to hear anything otherwise and this mentality is going to fester come morrowind regardless. It's this nonsense and gross assumptions that do not line up with how they actually perform on beta atm.

Vaoh

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

1. Templars (and Wardens) are the only accepted healers, even with the nerfs.

2. Sorcs/DKs/NBs will never be on par unless Templars lose every unique skill they have. To get these three classes on par, they need a few of their own powerful, *unique* Healer-oriented skills.

3. Tanks are strictly DKs (or Wardens). There is no reason to take DKs/Sorcs/Templars because they lack the sheer amount of support that their competitors have. This is a different topic of discussion and it'd take a lengthy thread to go in detail

Here's your typical strong Morrowind trial group:
Main Tank: DK/Warden
Off tank: DK/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
DPS: Can't confirm what the best setups for DPS are yet.

I want Templars to keep the Major Mending nerf that replaced it with Minor Mending, but also tie Major Mending to Rune Focus. Repentance should not have its allied Stamina return removed, but rather decreased by 50%. Spear Shards should have its synergy made unique again. At the same time buff the three underperforming healing specs. I laid out my ideas for these changes more detailed in the main post.

Just my thoughts on the role of healing at least

@Vaoh

If a Templar can tank the most challenging trial in HM today when can they not do it in Morrowind?

They absolutely can. The luminous shard change helps templar tanks immensely. The only thing dk tanks provide is a single block value passive and ult gen, that alone somehow established them as primary tanks. *shrug.

No, talons chains inhale minor maim do not make the tank in vet trials.

DKs have more than that One of their most powerful skills is Obsidian Shield, which is a fantastic support skill that provides your group small, spammable damage shields, grants you Major Mending, gives back Stamina, and provides you easy access to a powerful Ultimate-restoring passive.

Doesn't matter if the tank can sustain well casting tons of shards everywhere. You're making the most common mistake of endgame tanks. What separates really good tanks from those mediocre tanks that could never make it on raid teams is one thing - Support.

Tanking in ESO is very easy if you spec for it. A good tank for trials does not spec with tanking sets. They spec with Group Support sets and provide as much Group Support as possible, since the inherent job of tanking is doable this way as a DK. Alkosh, Ebon Armory, Powerful Assault, etc.

Healing is the same. Instead of wearing sets that increase your sustain like Lich, you slot Group Support sets like Worm Cult, Spell Power Cure, Hircine's Veneer, Healing Mage (Mending set), etc.

Like I said to the other guy, you can certainly tank on any class, and heal on any class, as well as DPS on a Stam NB as opposed to Magicka Sorc on live

If you want to be effective though, you'll stick to the classes that are tremendously more fitting for certain roles than others.

Tremendously more fitting.... It's hyperbolic comments like these that suggest you have had very little experience on how the game will play in morrowind.

There is nothing tremendous about a dk tank vs the alternatives. That is not an opinion. Not as it currently exists on the pts. And no igneous is not a key ingredient. It is key for mountains blessing and helping hands, however a dk healer in the same position will provide the same effect albeit marginally lower due to the shield scaling off of max health.

From a fundamental standpoint based solely on the passives and accessible tools, healing is comparable between all of the classes. Templar has a numerical advantage in possessing minor mending outside of healers habit (which no healer is going to ever use) and a more reliable form of resource restore in shards vs orbs. Outside if that, your comparisons are entirely lacking and framed in a dissmisive way.

I dont like classes getting needed any more than the next guy. But Templars have had a monopoly on the healer role for a very long time. From actual knowledgeable players it was understood due strictly to stamina utility, that no other healer had. And from entirely ignorant non healer players that assumed Templars were the only healers because they have a healing skill line and only ever see templar healers. It had nothing to do with major mending uptime or raw healing output.

This is not a special snowflake "I'm being unique guys!" Mentality. Do not liken this to the resto staff bow bosmer tree wizard player wanting to participate in a vet trial. the non templar healers do not need a healing outout increase. Among your other suggestions would create a grossly unbalanced healer meta in favor of non Templars. Your suggestions suggest you understand non templar healing very little and have had no experience with the game environment that will exist come June.

Templar has not lost their identity or relevance with the nerfs. Repentance nerf was simply collateral because of the overall changes to resource management, and major mending removal uptime has been nerfed across the board. I would actually be surprised if it isn't again changed for DKs as at the moment they are coming out ahead of Templars in healing through-put by a small amount. You would know this if you had hands on time rather then going off pure conjecture and speculation.

Yep.... totally.

I know very little about ESO, pre-Morrowind or post-Morrowind. Nothing I've said could be remotely true and has no bearing with reality because *you*, the source of all things ESO, have spoken it. Doesn't matter that what I've said is proven by taking a look at leaderboards for 30 seconds or less or having any form of Vet trial experience

We aren't going to get anywhere here. I don't even disagree with you very much, but your argument is full of half-truths that completely skew and misinterpret what I say throughout this thread for the sole purpose of needing to argue your point rather than converse normally.

Just wait until Morrowind comes out and leaderboards are solely comprised of Templar/Warden Healers and DK/Warden tanks. Little else needs to be said than that. (currently leaderboards are Templar Healers and DK tanks)

Look, all im saying is some of things you have claimed in your OP are contrary to what is being seen in the current beta iteration and to a lesser extent on live. I am not trying to suggest you don't know the game. But your suggestions for non templar healers are far too generous well coupled with the changes to morrowind.

And you know what.. you are right, the leaderbaords will likely be as you say come morrowind. Now this is a bold claim on my behalf but one that I vehemently believe and one that causes me a lot of flame...

There are simply far too many players that are set in their ways in terms of which class is entitled to which role. It is for this very reason that so many templar healers (not all mind you) are upset with the nerfs. A grrat deal of them will never even bother running group make ups beyond the scope of their preconceived notion of what class constitutes healer or tank. And because of that, imo you will not see a change up in leaderboards, the incredibly small raiding community in this game does not even want to bother engaging the idea of a non templar healer strictly based on an established expectation regardless of the FACT that come morrowind, non templar healers are literally on par with one another.

ZOS could live stream a hm trial run of hof with 2 templar tanks and nb & dk healer, set a record time and still no one would even acknowledge it. This is a hypothetical I know but I truly believe leaderbaords are a poor indication due to the incredibly small sample size and the lack of even bothering humoring the thought of a non templar in the healing role. No one will test this in morrowind because no one will ever bother to accept it as an option. Thus no sample comparison can even be made despite raw numbers arguing the contrary.

Not necessarily.

Templar can certainly be replaced by leaderboard groups, but the sole reason they won't is because these groups need to be as efficient by using what's best. Max CP, gold gear, optimized CP allocation, optimized rotations, optimized classes for each role, etc.

Using Templar Healers and DK tanks is part of this because they offer lots of group utility, whereas others classes in those roles are mediocre in comparison.

You say non-Templar classes aren't given a chance anymore because we all preconcieve those classes as worse healers, but we've seen proof of the opposite.

On PTS, the new Warden class has proven to be a strong healer and tank. As a result, they'll be found all over leaderboards in Supoort roles. If they were OP for DPS you'd find them there too, but Wardens are currently bad for DPS. If Wardens were bad at healing, they'd be no different than DKs/Sorcs/NBs are for healing, meaning they too would see very little if any use for that particular role.

In other words, we'll run whatever is legitimately the "best class" for each role. When something is meta, it becomes this way due to it being superior over its competitors. Likewise on Live servers, practically every single DPS that was a Mag NB, including most Mag DKs and Mag Temps, have converted to Mag Sorcs. The reason: Mag Sorcs have better DPS

This makes it very clear. If we buff DKs/Sorcs/NBs by giving them powerful, unique healing tolls in place of their really terrible morphs, and buff their weak heals, they would also become desireable in endgame PvE content.

That's my opinion on it at least. It's cool if you disagree. I'm more than certain of this all though since it's a very simple pattern backed by the years of history this game has of balance changes.

My point is that noone tests the competition to begin with because they do no not acknowledge that there is any competitor to the healer role at all.

Think about this for a second, why are wardens getting tested in the healer role? Essentially and factually in beta atm they are no more or less potent as a healer as any of the other class both in healing output and utility. This is confirmed by those that are testing it whom which I have had the privilege of playing with these last 2 weeks. Yet strictly because they have a "Healing skill line" the majority of people are by default assuming they are going to be the only other healer next to templar. That is frankly ridiculous. It is an uninformed opinion that is woefully innacurate. But it will not matter because of the logic set in place going forward. You see it everywhere on the forums right now and it's nauseating.

Same goes for warden tanks... quite literally they are on par with templar and dk right now yet because they have an identifiable "tank" skill line which is purely thematic, they are getting an auto pass from the average player into the tank role along side the DK. No one wants to hear anything otherwise and this mentality is going to fester come morrowind regardless. It's this nonsense and gross assumptions that do not line up with how they actually perform on beta atm.

Are Wardens not making excellent healers and tanks? Having dedicated skill lines toward healing and tanking does tend to naturally line the class up to be great at a role. I'm not sure what you mean by being given a ""free pass".

Warden is doing great at those two roles yet quite horrible for DPS atm. As a result, they will be used for tanking and healing by trial groups that want to be as effective as possible over DKs/Sorcs/NBs. People will do what they have always done - use what is best. This is the entire premise of having a meta among endgame PvE trial group compositions that want to get the highest scores.I'm not sure who your sources are that are saying all five classes are the same in the healing role. That has never been true throughout the game' history, and it's certainly not true in Morrowind.

You also say Templar, Warden, and DK are on par for the tanking role. Templar is not on the level of these two classes for tanking. Here's one example of why groups are setup the way they are:
A group will get the utility skill Spear Shards from Templar healers as well as Mag Templar DPS. If the tank is a Templar instead of a DK, you cannot gain access to constant mini damage shields from Obsidian Shield, since it is another skill that only a Support build could use (and the Healers sure aren't choosing DK over Templar/Warden). By choosing the "best" classes for these roles, you gain access to the most helpful and non-situational skills available for that particular role as well as a more fluid group synergy in buffing everyone as much as possible.

All in all, things are setup the way they are for a reason. When you have 2 DK tanks, 2 Templar healers, and then whatever is best atm for DPS, you have the most optimal group possible at your disposal. This is a tried and true setup that has been the same forever, and it's not because every single top leaderboard endgame PvEer is misguided -_-

Wardens are being accepted alongside Templar healers and DK tanks because they happen to be fantastic at Supporting allies. Lots of good heals, lots of powerful group and support buffs, a handful of nice passives, and even two good ultimates besides Warhorn to keep on you bar for certain situations. They are probably the most supportive class in the game atm, which his why they are the only class considered "best" (alongside Temp healers and DK tanks) for both support roles.

exeeter702

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

1. Templars (and Wardens) are the only accepted healers, even with the nerfs.

2. Sorcs/DKs/NBs will never be on par unless Templars lose every unique skill they have. To get these three classes on par, they need a few of their own powerful, *unique* Healer-oriented skills.

3. Tanks are strictly DKs (or Wardens). There is no reason to take DKs/Sorcs/Templars because they lack the sheer amount of support that their competitors have. This is a different topic of discussion and it'd take a lengthy thread to go in detail

Here's your typical strong Morrowind trial group:
Main Tank: DK/Warden
Off tank: DK/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
DPS: Can't confirm what the best setups for DPS are yet.

I want Templars to keep the Major Mending nerf that replaced it with Minor Mending, but also tie Major Mending to Rune Focus. Repentance should not have its allied Stamina return removed, but rather decreased by 50%. Spear Shards should have its synergy made unique again. At the same time buff the three underperforming healing specs. I laid out my ideas for these changes more detailed in the main post.

Just my thoughts on the role of healing at least

@Vaoh

If a Templar can tank the most challenging trial in HM today when can they not do it in Morrowind?

They absolutely can. The luminous shard change helps templar tanks immensely. The only thing dk tanks provide is a single block value passive and ult gen, that alone somehow established them as primary tanks. *shrug.

No, talons chains inhale minor maim do not make the tank in vet trials.

DKs have more than that One of their most powerful skills is Obsidian Shield, which is a fantastic support skill that provides your group small, spammable damage shields, grants you Major Mending, gives back Stamina, and provides you easy access to a powerful Ultimate-restoring passive.

Doesn't matter if the tank can sustain well casting tons of shards everywhere. You're making the most common mistake of endgame tanks. What separates really good tanks from those mediocre tanks that could never make it on raid teams is one thing - Support.

Tanking in ESO is very easy if you spec for it. A good tank for trials does not spec with tanking sets. They spec with Group Support sets and provide as much Group Support as possible, since the inherent job of tanking is doable this way as a DK. Alkosh, Ebon Armory, Powerful Assault, etc.

Healing is the same. Instead of wearing sets that increase your sustain like Lich, you slot Group Support sets like Worm Cult, Spell Power Cure, Hircine's Veneer, Healing Mage (Mending set), etc.

Like I said to the other guy, you can certainly tank on any class, and heal on any class, as well as DPS on a Stam NB as opposed to Magicka Sorc on live

If you want to be effective though, you'll stick to the classes that are tremendously more fitting for certain roles than others.

Tremendously more fitting.... It's hyperbolic comments like these that suggest you have had very little experience on how the game will play in morrowind.

There is nothing tremendous about a dk tank vs the alternatives. That is not an opinion. Not as it currently exists on the pts. And no igneous is not a key ingredient. It is key for mountains blessing and helping hands, however a dk healer in the same position will provide the same effect albeit marginally lower due to the shield scaling off of max health.

From a fundamental standpoint based solely on the passives and accessible tools, healing is comparable between all of the classes. Templar has a numerical advantage in possessing minor mending outside of healers habit (which no healer is going to ever use) and a more reliable form of resource restore in shards vs orbs. Outside if that, your comparisons are entirely lacking and framed in a dissmisive way.

I dont like classes getting needed any more than the next guy. But Templars have had a monopoly on the healer role for a very long time. From actual knowledgeable players it was understood due strictly to stamina utility, that no other healer had. And from entirely ignorant non healer players that assumed Templars were the only healers because they have a healing skill line and only ever see templar healers. It had nothing to do with major mending uptime or raw healing output.

This is not a special snowflake "I'm being unique guys!" Mentality. Do not liken this to the resto staff bow bosmer tree wizard player wanting to participate in a vet trial. the non templar healers do not need a healing outout increase. Among your other suggestions would create a grossly unbalanced healer meta in favor of non Templars. Your suggestions suggest you understand non templar healing very little and have had no experience with the game environment that will exist come June.

Templar has not lost their identity or relevance with the nerfs. Repentance nerf was simply collateral because of the overall changes to resource management, and major mending removal uptime has been nerfed across the board. I would actually be surprised if it isn't again changed for DKs as at the moment they are coming out ahead of Templars in healing through-put by a small amount. You would know this if you had hands on time rather then going off pure conjecture and speculation.

Yep.... totally.

I know very little about ESO, pre-Morrowind or post-Morrowind. Nothing I've said could be remotely true and has no bearing with reality because *you*, the source of all things ESO, have spoken it. Doesn't matter that what I've said is proven by taking a look at leaderboards for 30 seconds or less or having any form of Vet trial experience

We aren't going to get anywhere here. I don't even disagree with you very much, but your argument is full of half-truths that completely skew and misinterpret what I say throughout this thread for the sole purpose of needing to argue your point rather than converse normally.

Just wait until Morrowind comes out and leaderboards are solely comprised of Templar/Warden Healers and DK/Warden tanks. Little else needs to be said than that. (currently leaderboards are Templar Healers and DK tanks)

Look, all im saying is some of things you have claimed in your OP are contrary to what is being seen in the current beta iteration and to a lesser extent on live. I am not trying to suggest you don't know the game. But your suggestions for non templar healers are far too generous well coupled with the changes to morrowind.

And you know what.. you are right, the leaderbaords will likely be as you say come morrowind. Now this is a bold claim on my behalf but one that I vehemently believe and one that causes me a lot of flame...

There are simply far too many players that are set in their ways in terms of which class is entitled to which role. It is for this very reason that so many templar healers (not all mind you) are upset with the nerfs. A grrat deal of them will never even bother running group make ups beyond the scope of their preconceived notion of what class constitutes healer or tank. And because of that, imo you will not see a change up in leaderboards, the incredibly small raiding community in this game does not even want to bother engaging the idea of a non templar healer strictly based on an established expectation regardless of the FACT that come morrowind, non templar healers are literally on par with one another.

ZOS could live stream a hm trial run of hof with 2 templar tanks and nb & dk healer, set a record time and still no one would even acknowledge it. This is a hypothetical I know but I truly believe leaderbaords are a poor indication due to the incredibly small sample size and the lack of even bothering humoring the thought of a non templar in the healing role. No one will test this in morrowind because no one will ever bother to accept it as an option. Thus no sample comparison can even be made despite raw numbers arguing the contrary.

Not necessarily.

Templar can certainly be replaced by leaderboard groups, but the sole reason they won't is because these groups need to be as efficient by using what's best. Max CP, gold gear, optimized CP allocation, optimized rotations, optimized classes for each role, etc.

Using Templar Healers and DK tanks is part of this because they offer lots of group utility, whereas others classes in those roles are mediocre in comparison.

You say non-Templar classes aren't given a chance anymore because we all preconcieve those classes as worse healers, but we've seen proof of the opposite.

On PTS, the new Warden class has proven to be a strong healer and tank. As a result, they'll be found all over leaderboards in Supoort roles. If they were OP for DPS you'd find them there too, but Wardens are currently bad for DPS. If Wardens were bad at healing, they'd be no different than DKs/Sorcs/NBs are for healing, meaning they too would see very little if any use for that particular role.

In other words, we'll run whatever is legitimately the "best class" for each role. When something is meta, it becomes this way due to it being superior over its competitors. Likewise on Live servers, practically every single DPS that was a Mag NB, including most Mag DKs and Mag Temps, have converted to Mag Sorcs. The reason: Mag Sorcs have better DPS

This makes it very clear. If we buff DKs/Sorcs/NBs by giving them powerful, unique healing tolls in place of their really terrible morphs, and buff their weak heals, they would also become desireable in endgame PvE content.

That's my opinion on it at least. It's cool if you disagree. I'm more than certain of this all though since it's a very simple pattern backed by the years of history this game has of balance changes.

My point is that noone tests the competition to begin with because they do no not acknowledge that there is any competitor to the healer role at all.

Think about this for a second, why are wardens getting tested in the healer role? Essentially and factually in beta atm they are no more or less potent as a healer as any of the other class both in healing output and utility. This is confirmed by those that are testing it whom which I have had the privilege of playing with these last 2 weeks. Yet strictly because they have a "Healing skill line" the majority of people are by default assuming they are going to be the only other healer next to templar. That is frankly ridiculous. It is an uninformed opinion that is woefully innacurate. But it will not matter because of the logic set in place going forward. You see it everywhere on the forums right now and it's nauseating.

Same goes for warden tanks... quite literally they are on par with templar and dk right now yet because they have an identifiable "tank" skill line which is purely thematic, they are getting an auto pass from the average player into the tank role along side the DK. No one wants to hear anything otherwise and this mentality is going to fester come morrowind regardless. It's this nonsense and gross assumptions that do not line up with how they actually perform on beta atm.

Are Wardens not making excellent healers and tanks? Having dedicated skill lines toward healing and tanking does tend to naturally line the class up to be great at a role. I'm not sure what you mean by being given a ""free pass".

Warden is doing great at those two roles yet quite horrible for DPS atm. As a result, they will be used for tanking and healing by trial groups that want to be as effective as possible over DKs/Sorcs/NBs. People will do what they have always done - use what is best. This is the entire premise of having a meta among endgame PvE trial group compositions that want to get the highest scores.I'm not sure who your sources are that are saying all five classes are the same in the healing role. That has never been true throughout the game' history, and it's certainly not true in Morrowind.

You also say Templar, Warden, and DK are on par for the tanking role. Templar is not on the level of these two classes for tanking. Here's one example of why groups are setup the way they are:
A group will get the utility skill Spear Shards from Templar healers as well as Mag Templar DPS. If the tank is a Templar instead of a DK, you cannot gain access to constant mini damage shields from Obsidian Shield, since it is another skill that only a Support build could use (and the Healers sure aren't choosing DK over Templar/Warden). By choosing the "best" classes for these roles, you gain access to the most helpful and non-situational skills available for that particular role as well as a more fluid group synergy in buffing everyone as much as possible.

All in all, things are setup the way they are for a reason. When you have 2 DK tanks, 2 Templar healers, and then whatever is best atm for DPS, you have the most optimal group possible at your disposal. This is a tried and true setup that has been the same forever, and it's not because every single top leaderboard endgame PvEer is misguided -_-

Wardens are being accepted alongside Templar healers and DK tanks because they happen to be fantastic at Supporting allies. Lots of good heals, lots of powerful group and support buffs, a handful of nice passives, and even two good ultimates besides Warhorn to keep on you bar for certain situations. They are probably the most supportive class in the game atm, which his why they are the only class considered "best" (alongside Temp healers and DK tanks) for both support roles.

Well truth be told they are no more excellent than a nb or dk healer at the moment but I don't believe you will accept that. When I say free pass i mean people without knowledge of what is actually going on, automatically assume they are key healers and tanks simply due to a skill line.

And no, fundamentally when a class has a "dedicated skill line" as has been explained by the developers, it means the class skills are weighted differently when put up amongst the parallels found in the universal skill lines like the resto staff and sword and board. Said skill lines do not, by virtue of existing, mean they naturally excel at the role exclusively. This is literally the hardest thing people fail the grasp.

Let's not mention warden dps please. Whether or not they end up underperforming in the dps department has everything to do with tuning and nothing to do with intentionally by design to be weak dps because they can heal and tank respectively. Stam dk and magplars were exceptional dps a few patches back yet no one batted an eye. The only complaints people had were why x spec was better than y spec, so please buff y. There was not a single word regarding what right a stam dk or magplar had producing solid dps when they are also deemed best tanks and healers.

Intention of class role design and whether or not said spec is over or under tuned are 2 separate discussions.

Im literally telling you now dk and nb are healing with just as much potency as a warden and templar in both the utility and HPS department. This is not an opinion. It is an objective observation in the current beta.

Vaoh

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

1. Templars (and Wardens) are the only accepted healers, even with the nerfs.

2. Sorcs/DKs/NBs will never be on par unless Templars lose every unique skill they have. To get these three classes on par, they need a few of their own powerful, *unique* Healer-oriented skills.

3. Tanks are strictly DKs (or Wardens). There is no reason to take DKs/Sorcs/Templars because they lack the sheer amount of support that their competitors have. This is a different topic of discussion and it'd take a lengthy thread to go in detail

Here's your typical strong Morrowind trial group:
Main Tank: DK/Warden
Off tank: DK/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
DPS: Can't confirm what the best setups for DPS are yet.

I want Templars to keep the Major Mending nerf that replaced it with Minor Mending, but also tie Major Mending to Rune Focus. Repentance should not have its allied Stamina return removed, but rather decreased by 50%. Spear Shards should have its synergy made unique again. At the same time buff the three underperforming healing specs. I laid out my ideas for these changes more detailed in the main post.

Just my thoughts on the role of healing at least

@Vaoh

If a Templar can tank the most challenging trial in HM today when can they not do it in Morrowind?

They absolutely can. The luminous shard change helps templar tanks immensely. The only thing dk tanks provide is a single block value passive and ult gen, that alone somehow established them as primary tanks. *shrug.

No, talons chains inhale minor maim do not make the tank in vet trials.

DKs have more than that One of their most powerful skills is Obsidian Shield, which is a fantastic support skill that provides your group small, spammable damage shields, grants you Major Mending, gives back Stamina, and provides you easy access to a powerful Ultimate-restoring passive.

Doesn't matter if the tank can sustain well casting tons of shards everywhere. You're making the most common mistake of endgame tanks. What separates really good tanks from those mediocre tanks that could never make it on raid teams is one thing - Support.

Tanking in ESO is very easy if you spec for it. A good tank for trials does not spec with tanking sets. They spec with Group Support sets and provide as much Group Support as possible, since the inherent job of tanking is doable this way as a DK. Alkosh, Ebon Armory, Powerful Assault, etc.

Healing is the same. Instead of wearing sets that increase your sustain like Lich, you slot Group Support sets like Worm Cult, Spell Power Cure, Hircine's Veneer, Healing Mage (Mending set), etc.

Like I said to the other guy, you can certainly tank on any class, and heal on any class, as well as DPS on a Stam NB as opposed to Magicka Sorc on live

If you want to be effective though, you'll stick to the classes that are tremendously more fitting for certain roles than others.

Tremendously more fitting.... It's hyperbolic comments like these that suggest you have had very little experience on how the game will play in morrowind.

There is nothing tremendous about a dk tank vs the alternatives. That is not an opinion. Not as it currently exists on the pts. And no igneous is not a key ingredient. It is key for mountains blessing and helping hands, however a dk healer in the same position will provide the same effect albeit marginally lower due to the shield scaling off of max health.

From a fundamental standpoint based solely on the passives and accessible tools, healing is comparable between all of the classes. Templar has a numerical advantage in possessing minor mending outside of healers habit (which no healer is going to ever use) and a more reliable form of resource restore in shards vs orbs. Outside if that, your comparisons are entirely lacking and framed in a dissmisive way.

I dont like classes getting needed any more than the next guy. But Templars have had a monopoly on the healer role for a very long time. From actual knowledgeable players it was understood due strictly to stamina utility, that no other healer had. And from entirely ignorant non healer players that assumed Templars were the only healers because they have a healing skill line and only ever see templar healers. It had nothing to do with major mending uptime or raw healing output.

This is not a special snowflake "I'm being unique guys!" Mentality. Do not liken this to the resto staff bow bosmer tree wizard player wanting to participate in a vet trial. the non templar healers do not need a healing outout increase. Among your other suggestions would create a grossly unbalanced healer meta in favor of non Templars. Your suggestions suggest you understand non templar healing very little and have had no experience with the game environment that will exist come June.

Templar has not lost their identity or relevance with the nerfs. Repentance nerf was simply collateral because of the overall changes to resource management, and major mending removal uptime has been nerfed across the board. I would actually be surprised if it isn't again changed for DKs as at the moment they are coming out ahead of Templars in healing through-put by a small amount. You would know this if you had hands on time rather then going off pure conjecture and speculation.

Yep.... totally.

I know very little about ESO, pre-Morrowind or post-Morrowind. Nothing I've said could be remotely true and has no bearing with reality because *you*, the source of all things ESO, have spoken it. Doesn't matter that what I've said is proven by taking a look at leaderboards for 30 seconds or less or having any form of Vet trial experience

We aren't going to get anywhere here. I don't even disagree with you very much, but your argument is full of half-truths that completely skew and misinterpret what I say throughout this thread for the sole purpose of needing to argue your point rather than converse normally.

Just wait until Morrowind comes out and leaderboards are solely comprised of Templar/Warden Healers and DK/Warden tanks. Little else needs to be said than that. (currently leaderboards are Templar Healers and DK tanks)

Look, all im saying is some of things you have claimed in your OP are contrary to what is being seen in the current beta iteration and to a lesser extent on live. I am not trying to suggest you don't know the game. But your suggestions for non templar healers are far too generous well coupled with the changes to morrowind.

And you know what.. you are right, the leaderbaords will likely be as you say come morrowind. Now this is a bold claim on my behalf but one that I vehemently believe and one that causes me a lot of flame...

There are simply far too many players that are set in their ways in terms of which class is entitled to which role. It is for this very reason that so many templar healers (not all mind you) are upset with the nerfs. A grrat deal of them will never even bother running group make ups beyond the scope of their preconceived notion of what class constitutes healer or tank. And because of that, imo you will not see a change up in leaderboards, the incredibly small raiding community in this game does not even want to bother engaging the idea of a non templar healer strictly based on an established expectation regardless of the FACT that come morrowind, non templar healers are literally on par with one another.

ZOS could live stream a hm trial run of hof with 2 templar tanks and nb & dk healer, set a record time and still no one would even acknowledge it. This is a hypothetical I know but I truly believe leaderbaords are a poor indication due to the incredibly small sample size and the lack of even bothering humoring the thought of a non templar in the healing role. No one will test this in morrowind because no one will ever bother to accept it as an option. Thus no sample comparison can even be made despite raw numbers arguing the contrary.

Not necessarily.

Templar can certainly be replaced by leaderboard groups, but the sole reason they won't is because these groups need to be as efficient by using what's best. Max CP, gold gear, optimized CP allocation, optimized rotations, optimized classes for each role, etc.

Using Templar Healers and DK tanks is part of this because they offer lots of group utility, whereas others classes in those roles are mediocre in comparison.

You say non-Templar classes aren't given a chance anymore because we all preconcieve those classes as worse healers, but we've seen proof of the opposite.

On PTS, the new Warden class has proven to be a strong healer and tank. As a result, they'll be found all over leaderboards in Supoort roles. If they were OP for DPS you'd find them there too, but Wardens are currently bad for DPS. If Wardens were bad at healing, they'd be no different than DKs/Sorcs/NBs are for healing, meaning they too would see very little if any use for that particular role.

In other words, we'll run whatever is legitimately the "best class" for each role. When something is meta, it becomes this way due to it being superior over its competitors. Likewise on Live servers, practically every single DPS that was a Mag NB, including most Mag DKs and Mag Temps, have converted to Mag Sorcs. The reason: Mag Sorcs have better DPS

This makes it very clear. If we buff DKs/Sorcs/NBs by giving them powerful, unique healing tolls in place of their really terrible morphs, and buff their weak heals, they would also become desireable in endgame PvE content.

That's my opinion on it at least. It's cool if you disagree. I'm more than certain of this all though since it's a very simple pattern backed by the years of history this game has of balance changes.

My point is that noone tests the competition to begin with because they do no not acknowledge that there is any competitor to the healer role at all.

Think about this for a second, why are wardens getting tested in the healer role? Essentially and factually in beta atm they are no more or less potent as a healer as any of the other class both in healing output and utility. This is confirmed by those that are testing it whom which I have had the privilege of playing with these last 2 weeks. Yet strictly because they have a "Healing skill line" the majority of people are by default assuming they are going to be the only other healer next to templar. That is frankly ridiculous. It is an uninformed opinion that is woefully innacurate. But it will not matter because of the logic set in place going forward. You see it everywhere on the forums right now and it's nauseating.

Same goes for warden tanks... quite literally they are on par with templar and dk right now yet because they have an identifiable "tank" skill line which is purely thematic, they are getting an auto pass from the average player into the tank role along side the DK. No one wants to hear anything otherwise and this mentality is going to fester come morrowind regardless. It's this nonsense and gross assumptions that do not line up with how they actually perform on beta atm.

Are Wardens not making excellent healers and tanks? Having dedicated skill lines toward healing and tanking does tend to naturally line the class up to be great at a role. I'm not sure what you mean by being given a ""free pass".

Warden is doing great at those two roles yet quite horrible for DPS atm. As a result, they will be used for tanking and healing by trial groups that want to be as effective as possible over DKs/Sorcs/NBs. People will do what they have always done - use what is best. This is the entire premise of having a meta among endgame PvE trial group compositions that want to get the highest scores.I'm not sure who your sources are that are saying all five classes are the same in the healing role. That has never been true throughout the game' history, and it's certainly not true in Morrowind.

You also say Templar, Warden, and DK are on par for the tanking role. Templar is not on the level of these two classes for tanking. Here's one example of why groups are setup the way they are:
A group will get the utility skill Spear Shards from Templar healers as well as Mag Templar DPS. If the tank is a Templar instead of a DK, you cannot gain access to constant mini damage shields from Obsidian Shield, since it is another skill that only a Support build could use (and the Healers sure aren't choosing DK over Templar/Warden). By choosing the "best" classes for these roles, you gain access to the most helpful and non-situational skills available for that particular role as well as a more fluid group synergy in buffing everyone as much as possible.

All in all, things are setup the way they are for a reason. When you have 2 DK tanks, 2 Templar healers, and then whatever is best atm for DPS, you have the most optimal group possible at your disposal. This is a tried and true setup that has been the same forever, and it's not because every single top leaderboard endgame PvEer is misguided -_-

Wardens are being accepted alongside Templar healers and DK tanks because they happen to be fantastic at Supporting allies. Lots of good heals, lots of powerful group and support buffs, a handful of nice passives, and even two good ultimates besides Warhorn to keep on you bar for certain situations. They are probably the most supportive class in the game atm, which his why they are the only class considered "best" (alongside Temp healers and DK tanks) for both support roles.

Well truth be told they are no more excellent than a nb or dk healer at the moment but I don't believe you will accept that. When I say free pass i mean people without knowledge of what is actually going on, automatically assume they are key healers and tanks simply due to a skill line.

And no, fundamentally when a class has a "dedicated skill line" as has been explained by the developers, it means the class skills are weighted differently when put up amongst the parallels found in the universal skill lines like the resto staff and sword and board. Said skill lines do not, by virtue of existing, mean they naturally excel at the role exclusively. This is literally the hardest thing people fail the grasp.

Let's not mention warden dps please. Whether or not they end up underperforming in the dps department has everything to do with tuning and nothing to do with intentionally by design to be weak dps because they can heal and tank respectively. Stam dk and magplars were exceptional dps a few patches back yet no one batted an eye. The only complaints people had were why x spec was better than y spec, so please buff y. There was not a single word regarding what right a stam dk or magplar had producing solid dps when they are also deemed best tanks and healers.

Intention of class role design and whether or not said spec is over or under tuned are 2 separate discussions.

Im literally telling you now dk and nb are healing with just as much potency as a warden and templar in both the utility and HPS department. This is not an opinion. It is an objective observation in the current beta.

That's the first I've heard of it man. It's you vs the tons of people I've spoken to about the PTS including all of the footage I've seen. You say everyone else is ignorant based on what you alone have decided is true now, which also runs contrary to the entire history of the game. As you can imagine it's tough to buy in to what you're saying.

We'll find out if NBs, Sorcs and DKs truly have as much utility and healing as you say they do to be equals to Templars and Wardens when Morrowind releases

exeeter702

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

1. Templars (and Wardens) are the only accepted healers, even with the nerfs.

2. Sorcs/DKs/NBs will never be on par unless Templars lose every unique skill they have. To get these three classes on par, they need a few of their own powerful, *unique* Healer-oriented skills.

3. Tanks are strictly DKs (or Wardens). There is no reason to take DKs/Sorcs/Templars because they lack the sheer amount of support that their competitors have. This is a different topic of discussion and it'd take a lengthy thread to go in detail

Here's your typical strong Morrowind trial group:
Main Tank: DK/Warden
Off tank: DK/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
DPS: Can't confirm what the best setups for DPS are yet.

I want Templars to keep the Major Mending nerf that replaced it with Minor Mending, but also tie Major Mending to Rune Focus. Repentance should not have its allied Stamina return removed, but rather decreased by 50%. Spear Shards should have its synergy made unique again. At the same time buff the three underperforming healing specs. I laid out my ideas for these changes more detailed in the main post.

Just my thoughts on the role of healing at least

@Vaoh

If a Templar can tank the most challenging trial in HM today when can they not do it in Morrowind?

They absolutely can. The luminous shard change helps templar tanks immensely. The only thing dk tanks provide is a single block value passive and ult gen, that alone somehow established them as primary tanks. *shrug.

No, talons chains inhale minor maim do not make the tank in vet trials.

DKs have more than that One of their most powerful skills is Obsidian Shield, which is a fantastic support skill that provides your group small, spammable damage shields, grants you Major Mending, gives back Stamina, and provides you easy access to a powerful Ultimate-restoring passive.

Doesn't matter if the tank can sustain well casting tons of shards everywhere. You're making the most common mistake of endgame tanks. What separates really good tanks from those mediocre tanks that could never make it on raid teams is one thing - Support.

Tanking in ESO is very easy if you spec for it. A good tank for trials does not spec with tanking sets. They spec with Group Support sets and provide as much Group Support as possible, since the inherent job of tanking is doable this way as a DK. Alkosh, Ebon Armory, Powerful Assault, etc.

Healing is the same. Instead of wearing sets that increase your sustain like Lich, you slot Group Support sets like Worm Cult, Spell Power Cure, Hircine's Veneer, Healing Mage (Mending set), etc.

Like I said to the other guy, you can certainly tank on any class, and heal on any class, as well as DPS on a Stam NB as opposed to Magicka Sorc on live

If you want to be effective though, you'll stick to the classes that are tremendously more fitting for certain roles than others.

Tremendously more fitting.... It's hyperbolic comments like these that suggest you have had very little experience on how the game will play in morrowind.

There is nothing tremendous about a dk tank vs the alternatives. That is not an opinion. Not as it currently exists on the pts. And no igneous is not a key ingredient. It is key for mountains blessing and helping hands, however a dk healer in the same position will provide the same effect albeit marginally lower due to the shield scaling off of max health.

From a fundamental standpoint based solely on the passives and accessible tools, healing is comparable between all of the classes. Templar has a numerical advantage in possessing minor mending outside of healers habit (which no healer is going to ever use) and a more reliable form of resource restore in shards vs orbs. Outside if that, your comparisons are entirely lacking and framed in a dissmisive way.

I dont like classes getting needed any more than the next guy. But Templars have had a monopoly on the healer role for a very long time. From actual knowledgeable players it was understood due strictly to stamina utility, that no other healer had. And from entirely ignorant non healer players that assumed Templars were the only healers because they have a healing skill line and only ever see templar healers. It had nothing to do with major mending uptime or raw healing output.

This is not a special snowflake "I'm being unique guys!" Mentality. Do not liken this to the resto staff bow bosmer tree wizard player wanting to participate in a vet trial. the non templar healers do not need a healing outout increase. Among your other suggestions would create a grossly unbalanced healer meta in favor of non Templars. Your suggestions suggest you understand non templar healing very little and have had no experience with the game environment that will exist come June.

Templar has not lost their identity or relevance with the nerfs. Repentance nerf was simply collateral because of the overall changes to resource management, and major mending removal uptime has been nerfed across the board. I would actually be surprised if it isn't again changed for DKs as at the moment they are coming out ahead of Templars in healing through-put by a small amount. You would know this if you had hands on time rather then going off pure conjecture and speculation.

Yep.... totally.

I know very little about ESO, pre-Morrowind or post-Morrowind. Nothing I've said could be remotely true and has no bearing with reality because *you*, the source of all things ESO, have spoken it. Doesn't matter that what I've said is proven by taking a look at leaderboards for 30 seconds or less or having any form of Vet trial experience

We aren't going to get anywhere here. I don't even disagree with you very much, but your argument is full of half-truths that completely skew and misinterpret what I say throughout this thread for the sole purpose of needing to argue your point rather than converse normally.

Just wait until Morrowind comes out and leaderboards are solely comprised of Templar/Warden Healers and DK/Warden tanks. Little else needs to be said than that. (currently leaderboards are Templar Healers and DK tanks)

Look, all im saying is some of things you have claimed in your OP are contrary to what is being seen in the current beta iteration and to a lesser extent on live. I am not trying to suggest you don't know the game. But your suggestions for non templar healers are far too generous well coupled with the changes to morrowind.

And you know what.. you are right, the leaderbaords will likely be as you say come morrowind. Now this is a bold claim on my behalf but one that I vehemently believe and one that causes me a lot of flame...

There are simply far too many players that are set in their ways in terms of which class is entitled to which role. It is for this very reason that so many templar healers (not all mind you) are upset with the nerfs. A grrat deal of them will never even bother running group make ups beyond the scope of their preconceived notion of what class constitutes healer or tank. And because of that, imo you will not see a change up in leaderboards, the incredibly small raiding community in this game does not even want to bother engaging the idea of a non templar healer strictly based on an established expectation regardless of the FACT that come morrowind, non templar healers are literally on par with one another.

ZOS could live stream a hm trial run of hof with 2 templar tanks and nb & dk healer, set a record time and still no one would even acknowledge it. This is a hypothetical I know but I truly believe leaderbaords are a poor indication due to the incredibly small sample size and the lack of even bothering humoring the thought of a non templar in the healing role. No one will test this in morrowind because no one will ever bother to accept it as an option. Thus no sample comparison can even be made despite raw numbers arguing the contrary.

Not necessarily.

Templar can certainly be replaced by leaderboard groups, but the sole reason they won't is because these groups need to be as efficient by using what's best. Max CP, gold gear, optimized CP allocation, optimized rotations, optimized classes for each role, etc.

Using Templar Healers and DK tanks is part of this because they offer lots of group utility, whereas others classes in those roles are mediocre in comparison.

You say non-Templar classes aren't given a chance anymore because we all preconcieve those classes as worse healers, but we've seen proof of the opposite.

On PTS, the new Warden class has proven to be a strong healer and tank. As a result, they'll be found all over leaderboards in Supoort roles. If they were OP for DPS you'd find them there too, but Wardens are currently bad for DPS. If Wardens were bad at healing, they'd be no different than DKs/Sorcs/NBs are for healing, meaning they too would see very little if any use for that particular role.

In other words, we'll run whatever is legitimately the "best class" for each role. When something is meta, it becomes this way due to it being superior over its competitors. Likewise on Live servers, practically every single DPS that was a Mag NB, including most Mag DKs and Mag Temps, have converted to Mag Sorcs. The reason: Mag Sorcs have better DPS

This makes it very clear. If we buff DKs/Sorcs/NBs by giving them powerful, unique healing tolls in place of their really terrible morphs, and buff their weak heals, they would also become desireable in endgame PvE content.

That's my opinion on it at least. It's cool if you disagree. I'm more than certain of this all though since it's a very simple pattern backed by the years of history this game has of balance changes.

My point is that noone tests the competition to begin with because they do no not acknowledge that there is any competitor to the healer role at all.

Think about this for a second, why are wardens getting tested in the healer role? Essentially and factually in beta atm they are no more or less potent as a healer as any of the other class both in healing output and utility. This is confirmed by those that are testing it whom which I have had the privilege of playing with these last 2 weeks. Yet strictly because they have a "Healing skill line" the majority of people are by default assuming they are going to be the only other healer next to templar. That is frankly ridiculous. It is an uninformed opinion that is woefully innacurate. But it will not matter because of the logic set in place going forward. You see it everywhere on the forums right now and it's nauseating.

Same goes for warden tanks... quite literally they are on par with templar and dk right now yet because they have an identifiable "tank" skill line which is purely thematic, they are getting an auto pass from the average player into the tank role along side the DK. No one wants to hear anything otherwise and this mentality is going to fester come morrowind regardless. It's this nonsense and gross assumptions that do not line up with how they actually perform on beta atm.

Are Wardens not making excellent healers and tanks? Having dedicated skill lines toward healing and tanking does tend to naturally line the class up to be great at a role. I'm not sure what you mean by being given a ""free pass".

Warden is doing great at those two roles yet quite horrible for DPS atm. As a result, they will be used for tanking and healing by trial groups that want to be as effective as possible over DKs/Sorcs/NBs. People will do what they have always done - use what is best. This is the entire premise of having a meta among endgame PvE trial group compositions that want to get the highest scores.I'm not sure who your sources are that are saying all five classes are the same in the healing role. That has never been true throughout the game' history, and it's certainly not true in Morrowind.

You also say Templar, Warden, and DK are on par for the tanking role. Templar is not on the level of these two classes for tanking. Here's one example of why groups are setup the way they are:
A group will get the utility skill Spear Shards from Templar healers as well as Mag Templar DPS. If the tank is a Templar instead of a DK, you cannot gain access to constant mini damage shields from Obsidian Shield, since it is another skill that only a Support build could use (and the Healers sure aren't choosing DK over Templar/Warden). By choosing the "best" classes for these roles, you gain access to the most helpful and non-situational skills available for that particular role as well as a more fluid group synergy in buffing everyone as much as possible.

All in all, things are setup the way they are for a reason. When you have 2 DK tanks, 2 Templar healers, and then whatever is best atm for DPS, you have the most optimal group possible at your disposal. This is a tried and true setup that has been the same forever, and it's not because every single top leaderboard endgame PvEer is misguided -_-

Wardens are being accepted alongside Templar healers and DK tanks because they happen to be fantastic at Supporting allies. Lots of good heals, lots of powerful group and support buffs, a handful of nice passives, and even two good ultimates besides Warhorn to keep on you bar for certain situations. They are probably the most supportive class in the game atm, which his why they are the only class considered "best" (alongside Temp healers and DK tanks) for both support roles.

Well truth be told they are no more excellent than a nb or dk healer at the moment but I don't believe you will accept that. When I say free pass i mean people without knowledge of what is actually going on, automatically assume they are key healers and tanks simply due to a skill line.

And no, fundamentally when a class has a "dedicated skill line" as has been explained by the developers, it means the class skills are weighted differently when put up amongst the parallels found in the universal skill lines like the resto staff and sword and board. Said skill lines do not, by virtue of existing, mean they naturally excel at the role exclusively. This is literally the hardest thing people fail the grasp.

Let's not mention warden dps please. Whether or not they end up underperforming in the dps department has everything to do with tuning and nothing to do with intentionally by design to be weak dps because they can heal and tank respectively. Stam dk and magplars were exceptional dps a few patches back yet no one batted an eye. The only complaints people had were why x spec was better than y spec, so please buff y. There was not a single word regarding what right a stam dk or magplar had producing solid dps when they are also deemed best tanks and healers.

Intention of class role design and whether or not said spec is over or under tuned are 2 separate discussions.

Im literally telling you now dk and nb are healing with just as much potency as a warden and templar in both the utility and HPS department. This is not an opinion. It is an objective observation in the current beta.

That's the first I've heard of it man. It's you vs the tons of people I've spoken to about the PTS including all of the footage I've seen. You say everyone else is ignorant based on what you alone have decided is true now, which also runs contrary to the entire history of the game. As you can imagine it's tough to buy in to what you're saying.

We'll find out if NBs, Sorcs and DKs truly have as much utility and healing as you say they do to be equals to Templars and Wardens when Morrowind releases

Perhaps ignorant is a strong word. But im only referring to those that chose not to acknowledge healers outside of wardens and templars entirely.

Incognitius

Vaoh wrote: »

Wardens will definitely be awesome!

Steadfast Ward is the main skill, Healing Ward and Ward Ally (I mentioned this morph) are the morphs. Should you need to cast this skill, it is best you give yourself a damage shield too. Also it is not often the shield will survive very long meaning you'll basically lose the extra effect gained from Healing Ward. Ward Ally is considered the better morph for Healers in PvE. Both morphs are strong though.

You mention you have not entered any trials yet, and only run Vet dungeons. I made sure to explicitly state right at the beginning of my main post that this mainly applies to trial settings (aka endgame PvE). Every class is fine at every role for Vet dungeons.

In trials (particularly Vet trials) it is completely different. Since forever, Templars have been the only accepted healers and DKs the only accepted tanks. ZOS has decided to both nerf and/or remove some of the Templar's most unique abilities in hopes of bringing the classes in line, but Templar is still way ahead, right beside the Warden.

My suggestion here was to take some of the useless morphs of each class and make them powerful for Healers to solve the problem. It'd be an easy fix.

As it stands, you would have a very difficult time becoming a Vet dungeon healer purely on the basis of choosing the "incorrect" class. If you use a Templar, you'd go unquestioned.

Ah yes, steadfast ward. I always forget the original skill name. I have Ward Ally on my templar healer, but use Healing Ward on non-templars, as this morph was advertised as a poor man's Breath of Life. Tbh, when I use the healing ward, I always follow up with an actual heal, because I like full health bars. So Ward Ally would probably be the better morph for them as well, even though I use empowered ward on sorc.

I've run normal trials with templar, sorc, and maybe once with nightblade healer. And yes, templar is always welcome. Sorc often as well, even in pugs. Nightblade people have doubts about.

I've tried twice to do veteran trials with my templar healer, because I am not snowflake enough to try a different class. :P But it's not for me.

I haven't experienced much issues doing Veteran Dungeons with different classes of healers, though. Nowadays running them with guildies most of time, but even when pugging I don't get much grief. I do a bit of healing, people see the SPC buff, and no problems. Last time pugging ,I ran with a tank who told me during the second pledge, that he hadn't noticed I was a sorc healer. He thought I was templar that was stingy on the shards. Don't know how he missed that big flying matriarch though. xD

Ruze

While it is true every class CAN perform every role, I think the abilities of the classes should be tweaked so that all classes can be specced for any role and be just as capable. There should be differences of course, or there would not be any point to having classes, but they should all be equally capable. DK should not be the best tank either. ZOS maybe has a different vision for the game, but I think most players would prefer being able to play any role as the class of their choice if specced for it.

CaptainBeerDude

Give resto staves the ability to return all resources on a heavy attack and lower the damage output.
Now every healer can help with resource management and it buffs the HA meta they are pushing for.

IronCrystal

Walties99 wrote: »

I've considered going sorc for the multiple Passives (10% recovery, 4% extra health with pet out, lightning form for additional concussion/implosion procs). We usually run 1-2 magplars with shards in their rotation and with repentance being gone, I'm not going to be targeting specific players besides the tank with shards anyways. Apparently some wardens aren't doing so well with being able to work all of their skills into a bar setup/rotation and still keep up lightning wall/ combat prayer/ e drain and keep people alive. My sorc plays exactly like a templar healer except I would swap 2 instant casts for 2 other instant cats and they have similar durations, but the benefits with templar passives and stam management being depleted don't match up to current sorc passives.

Minor recommendation. Lightning wall isn't that great on the PTS because the reason for using it is to set enemies off-balance. Well, the second someone uses a heavy attack on the enemy it will consume the off-balance, making it worthless.

Also @Vaoh, y u no mention Stalwart guard for healing xD

Tasear

Ruze wrote: »

While it is true every class CAN perform every role, I think the abilities of the classes should be tweaked so that all classes can be specced for any role and be just as capable. There should be differences of course, or there would not be any point to having classes, but they should all be equally capable. DK should not be the best tank either. ZOS maybe has a different vision for the game, but I think most players would prefer being able to play any role as the class of their choice if specced for it.

Too be honest it's already that way except a few things, perception. It's a scary monster.

As I said earlier OP has no idea what they are talking about... but let me try to regin is my thoughts into formal insightful discussion instead of annoyance of the lack of proper research.

Point 1: Is Templar the only healer class next to the accused pay for win warden

If you search through logs of zone chats you will see this is mentality that plagued the community especially summer 2016. Why was this true? Breath of life was cheaper and healed more people so it didn't make sense for another class to be considered especially when one class had the needed resource buff to allies. Fast forward to now, the accepted mentality for dugeons is any class can heal for four man content.

The conflict of interest is the community has grown and the last year middle class players now are higher end players who grew under the umbrella is't possible if I am skilled enough. In fact though opposed the shortage of healers and tanks alike allowed fairly easy access to any healer for normal trials. After all it was the ear of infinite sustain. At last though on the issue it came to vet trials there was an impossible road block that made it "Templar only" which was stamina sustain. While magicka dps have say at least five other options ...stamina dps had nothing... and tanks need stamina to block.

So what did you have to do? If you were dragon knight, sorcerer , nightblade... reroll templar. Certainly some did so, but others didn't and some who did found it not suiting there play style. Y.


But at last there came an wall for the healer class... templar only while even dk and sorc tanks exist though sparse in number the notion of a non templar healer for a vet trials was a joke. At last though, this was against the eso philosophy, and I suppose they picked a "go big or go home" moment to make such changes. Though the reality of not doing it is far worst. For a moment, think what would of happened? Certainly by now you seen each healer class by now, but with the changes to sustain you would of say an unintended consequence or aftereffect which would be Templar only for pledges which would reverse the changes from last year and likely wouldn't of been fixable. I going to be honest I was ready to quit or... take break for the foreseeable feature. A lot of us like the game for "play as you want" it's that sweet freedom that lures us to the game, but we would of been humiliated, ridiculed and disgraced. Now I think we reach a middle pass with gives the other classes stamina resource ability.

Does this take away from the Templar identity? Okay...Okay.. at first it really did, but the adjustments this pass Monday was it made it work. This is fair as every other skill that is super duper special was in world, guild, or free everyone . There's a group shield that is subpar to dk, there's sorcerer skill exchange system to get magicka in mage guild , templar group stamina now in orbs, there's nightblade healing based on damage in restoration line. Note these are similar yet different.

On point is templar the only healing class, because of the healing skill line. I think if you are only healing then you are doing something wrong...healers got to provide buffs in all. Each class has it's own set of buffs it already it gives, while other classes can use similar skills from other class lines that are accessible to ever healer.

Point 2: Other classes can't heal

This annoys me beyond ...belief so let me heal dissuade this illusion of a perception in reality.

Nightblade healer

www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5x7fih/my_progression

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/a-long-guide-to-nightblade-pve-healing-in-one-tamriel-the-madgod/


Sorcerer healer

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/dark-priestess-pug-proof/

http://guides.gamepressure.com/elderscrollsonline/guide.asp?ID=25118




Dragon Knight Healer

http://deltiasgaming.com/eso-dragonknight-healer-build/

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/328074/the-dungeon-off-tank-dk-healer-build#latest

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/earthen-shielding-healer-dk/

http://esoacademy.com/builds/magicka-dragon-knight-healer/

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/95613/healing-as-a-dragon-knight


Point three : Other classes can't compete

Certainly it's easier to do what ever else is doing to make it to the top.But what works for one group might not work for the second. Indeed allowing other classes to heal... or tank for that matter requires some adjustments to tactics. Also with the addition to the much needed stamina support the other's are no longer at overwhelming disadvantage.


Vet Trial nightblade healer

www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5x7fih/my_progression


Vet Trial Sorcerer Healer

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/325435/non-templar-veteran-trial-healers-memories-with-complete-list-of-non-class-support-skills#latest

IronCrystal

Tasear wrote: »

First off the pet die dies in 30 secs? Please go check this week's leader board, way off the Mark there cause my name's there.

I laughed because apparently you think that means something

Tasear

Incognitius wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Wardens will definitely be awesome!

Steadfast Ward is the main skill, Healing Ward and Ward Ally (I mentioned this morph) are the morphs. Should you need to cast this skill, it is best you give yourself a damage shield too. Also it is not often the shield will survive very long meaning you'll basically lose the extra effect gained from Healing Ward. Ward Ally is considered the better morph for Healers in PvE. Both morphs are strong though.

You mention you have not entered any trials yet, and only run Vet dungeons. I made sure to explicitly state right at the beginning of my main post that this mainly applies to trial settings (aka endgame PvE). Every class is fine at every role for Vet dungeons.

In trials (particularly Vet trials) it is completely different. Since forever, Templars have been the only accepted healers and DKs the only accepted tanks. ZOS has decided to both nerf and/or remove some of the Templar's most unique abilities in hopes of bringing the classes in line, but Templar is still way ahead, right beside the Warden.

My suggestion here was to take some of the useless morphs of each class and make them powerful for Healers to solve the problem. It'd be an easy fix.

As it stands, you would have a very difficult time becoming a Vet dungeon healer purely on the basis of choosing the "incorrect" class. If you use a Templar, you'd go unquestioned.

Ah yes, steadfast ward. I always forget the original skill name. I have Ward Ally on my templar healer, but use Healing Ward on non-templars, as this morph was advertised as a poor man's Breath of Life. Tbh, when I use the healing ward, I always follow up with an actual heal, because I like full health bars. So Ward Ally would probably be the better morph for them as well, even though I use empowered ward on sorc.

I've run normal trials with templar, sorc, and maybe once with nightblade healer. And yes, templar is always welcome. Sorc often as well, even in pugs. Nightblade people have doubts about.

I've tried twice to do veteran trials with my templar healer, because I am not snowflake enough to try a different class. :P But it's not for me.

I haven't experienced much issues doing Veteran Dungeons with different classes of healers, though. Nowadays running them with guildies most of time, but even when pugging I don't get much grief. I do a bit of healing, people see the SPC buff, and no problems. Last time pugging ,I ran with a tank who told me during the second pledge, that he hadn't noticed I was a sorc healer. He thought I was templar that was stingy on the shards. Don't know how he missed that big flying matriarch though. xD

These are the best moments ... I laugh so hard when this happens... it's easier for this to happen to nightblades or dragon knights... then again maybe twlight blends to well in the background...idk.

P.S Nightblades are alright www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5x7fih/my_progression

Tasear

IronCrystal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

First off the pet die dies in 30 secs? Please go check this week's leader board, way off the Mark there cause my name's there.

I laughed because apparently you think that means something

It was sarcasm mostly with a tint of annoyance, why because the original poster proposes that templar should keep their exclusive skill and instead change the skills of another classes for better healing. I was trying to point out.. the original poster is persuaded by other's information while also be obviously bias. Other healers are fine.. they just needed a way to give stamina for end game.

But on point, It's clear that the pet doesn't die if I made it could make it on the leaderboard ... thinking about I suppose you can do it without the pet, but either way the who thread is started under the premise of I am okay with other classes healing, but make it " separate but equal" ...I am sure that worked other else were (shakes head no) .

A minor tangent is actually fascinating to see development of the game. It has this feeling of a development of an society with all it's roughness and bliss. maybe this is all one big bug experiment for utopia .