*The Role of Healing* - Giving Sorc, DK, and NB the means to be viable!...... and un-nerfing Templar

Silver_Strider

Vaoh wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Not against your suggestion but I do have a few of my own for NB

Blur - Let this apply to teammates, up to 6 people. This would offer a nice utility by providing the group with Major Evasion with a secondary benefit depending on morph (Major Expedition would probably be the go to since Minor Resolve/Ward are covered by Combat Prayer)

Refreshing Path - Add a synergy that gives a small burst heal/ups the HoT component of the skill. More synergies for more uptime on Moondancer and Alkosh.

Shades - Having it apply Minor Vulnerability or Minor Fracture/Breech would help this skill greatly overall, regardless of role.

Soul Siphon - I do like the burst heal this grants and I'm not for changing it for a copy pf Cleansing Ritual. I'd be more for it letting it grant Major Berserk though.

I really like your ideas for Shades dealing Minor debuffs and Refreshing Path granting a synergy to proc Moondancer with maybe give an extra HoT or something!

I've never really seen Soul Siphon used by anyone since Consuming Darkness is just more helpful though. Also giving Blur a group Major Evasion would be a bit much since Gossamer would be made totally not worth it and it would cause immense PvP qq.... plus in PvE it'd probably be a bit much since the uptime would be so high. Adding group Major Evasion to an Ultimate like Soul Siphon might work

I don't really feel as though giving Blur to a few party members would really be that big a deal honestly. People feared Gossamer would destroy PvP when it was 1st revealed but ultimately it was meh at best. Then, we have to consider that Major Evasion is already fairly common in PvP via Shuffle, just because it helps to remove snares as well. Even if a NB could give Major Evasion to 6 people, people would just override it with Shuffle to remove snares, making the argument somewhat moot. On the PvE side of thing, Gossamer is also a 3rd place set, falling behind Worm Cult and Twilight's Remedy for secondary Healer sets in Trials. It isn't a bad set but it is already somewhat unnecessary a set to use because it only applies when someone is healed as well as how redundant a buff it generally turns out to be when you factor in how often other party members are hit, which is fairly rare outside of raid wide AoEs. In a bad group, maybe the dodge would be more helpful but that would make NB healers actually useful in those situations if Blur applied to everyone too, which is sort of the point of the topic, isn't it? To make other classes viable healer on their own terms? As for the high uptime, Gossamer can have a near constant uptime on anyone that is constantly taking damage (I.E. Tanks) so the duration of Blur vs Gossamer is moot as well.

Soul Siphon is just underrated due to the overall usefulness of Heal based Ultimates. Remembrance is also never really seen in PvE content outside of those moments in bad groups, similar to Soul Siphon but the biggest hindrance for Soul Siphon is Soul Tether. An AoE stun/heal for the caster that hits like a truck is much more appealing in general for both PvP and solo content than a Group heal that doesn't help as much in similar situations so most people don't bother to morph it into Soul Siphon, even healers. Soul Siphon would need to do much more than what it currently offers for it to be taken even remotely into consideration, which is why I feel adding Major Berserk would be a great way to make it more appealing as it would offer a use in any kind of content, be it solo, group or PvP.

Lore_lai

Some of your suggestions are interesting, but the buff changes you propose would cause an absurd and easy to achieve amount of healing done/received which would be very imbalanced.

Just look at your DK suggestions, for example, and add up the healing/done received potential considering existing class passives too and potential CP allocation.

Vaoh

Lore_lai wrote: »

Some of your suggestions are interesting, but the buff changes you propose would cause an absurd and easy to achieve amount of healing done/received which would be very imbalanced.

Just look at your DK suggestions, for example, and add up the healing/done received potential considering existing class passives too and potential CP allocation.

They're just suggestions dude -_- All of it could be adjusted for the sake of *balance*. Plus compare the version of DK which I proposed compared to Templars nowadays. That DK could push out slightly stronger heals and a power unique heal from Inferno, though Templars would still have access to many more group support options making them still better. DK would just be accepted as a healer alongside Templars (rather than the current Templar/Warden or gtfo situation).

Lore_lai

Vaoh wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Some of your suggestions are interesting, but the buff changes you propose would cause an absurd and easy to achieve amount of healing done/received which would be very imbalanced.

Just look at your DK suggestions, for example, and add up the healing/done received potential considering existing class passives too and potential CP allocation.

They're just suggestions dude -_- All of it could be adjusted for the sake of *balance*. Plus compare the version of DK which I proposed compared to Templars nowadays. That DK could push out slightly stronger heals and a power unique heal from Inferno, though Templars would still have access to many more group support options making them still better. DK would just be accepted as a healer alongside Templars (rather than the current Templar/Warden or gtfo situation).

Okay, lady, don't get too worked up now.
You make a forum thread asking for feedback - I gave you feedback. No need to get too emotional, I obviously know they're just suggestions.
IMO - the changes you proposed would lead to much too easy stacking of healing done/received.
The DK example, was just that - an example, because the DK would have the potential for the most % of that.
I could have said the same thing for what you suggest on Templar.

Anything that allows you to so easily stack Minor + Major Mending, on top of a bunch of other healing in/out buffs is over-the-top IMO.
You have to keep in-mind PvP too, especially since the Devs have made it very clear that their vision is to keep everything balanced.

Calandrae

Tasear wrote: »

andreasranasen wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

You don't know what you ate talking about.

Troll lol

These selfish posts from template Healers are the real troll post. All what was done was balance. Is there fear that someone going to take your job?

It's like with woman or colored people got equal rights. Everyone was crying that it would not work or it should people. It's going to work

I was willing to believe you were just on a weird one-person crusade to ruin Templars as a class in a computer/console game. But now you are actually comparing that said game to basic human rights. That leaves only one conclusion: You must be a troll.

And no-one is afraid of "someone" taking their job. My job is elsewhere than in a computer game, and anyone would need a very specific higher education and work-experience to gain even a possibility to apply for that job.

idk

First, it looks at the surface that OP is QQing that Sorcs, DKs and NBs are not good enough healers and need to be improved based on the title and the first 2/3rds of the really long OP.

Helps with long posts to be clear from the beginning about what your trying to say. Most of us will not read through such a long post and feel the first 2/3rds make clear what the point is.

Further, the skills mentioned for each of the non Templar classes is pointless since most of them are not used in healing., but used in other roles.

Finally, Templars will still be a very strong presence in trials for healing and Warden will make a good healer to pair with them. If you are upset about the nerfs to Templars post your thoughts in the PTS section of the forums, but please do it in a more organized, concise post.

F7sus4

Vaoh wrote: »

• Leeching Strikes:
- This morph changes into Affinity
- Now costs Magicka, and returns a small amount of Magicka every second when healing an ally
- Grants the user Minor Mending and well as 10% increased resurrection speed
- Has a 10% chance when active and healing an ally below 50% health to grant you 1 Utlimate every second for 3 seconds. Has a cooldown of 3 seconds.

That would actually make buff for magNBs Funnel Health DPS builds rather than healers. It gives insane sustain (which would be especially important in sustain-problematic forthcoming meta) and Ultimate generation on top of that - to the point it easily outclasses Force Pulse.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

F7sus4 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

• Leeching Strikes:
- This morph changes into Affinity
- Now costs Magicka, and returns a small amount of Magicka every second when healing an ally
- Grants the user Minor Mending and well as 10% increased resurrection speed
- Has a 10% chance when active and healing an ally below 50% health to grant you 1 Utlimate every second for 3 seconds. Has a cooldown of 3 seconds.

That would actually make insane buff for magNBs Funnel Health DPS builds rather than healers. It gives insane sustain (which would be especially important in sustain-problematic forthcoming meta) and Ultimate generation on top of that - to the point it would easily outclass Force Pulse.

I personally want something that makes mag nbs different then sorcs, if it made it better then force pulse all the better.

F7sus4

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

F7sus4 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

• Leeching Strikes:
- This morph changes into Affinity
- Now costs Magicka, and returns a small amount of Magicka every second when healing an ally
- Grants the user Minor Mending and well as 10% increased resurrection speed
- Has a 10% chance when active and healing an ally below 50% health to grant you 1 Utlimate every second for 3 seconds. Has a cooldown of 3 seconds.

That would actually make insane buff for magNBs Funnel Health DPS builds rather than healers. It gives insane sustain (which would be especially important in sustain-problematic forthcoming meta) and Ultimate generation on top of that - to the point it would easily outclass Force Pulse.

I personally want something that makes mag nbs different then sorcs, if it made it better then force pulse all the better.

As a magNB main, I tend to agree. Keep in mind that the changes were proposed with healing role in mind and the benefits for DD are most likely unintended chain-gain. Even with current place of magNBs in PvE, such buff would be an overkill.

Vaoh

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

First, it looks at the surface that OP is QQing that Sorcs, DKs and NBs are not good enough healers and need to be improved based on the title and the first 2/3rds of the really long OP.

Helps with long posts to be clear from the beginning about what your trying to say. Most of us will not read through such a long post and feel the first 2/3rds make clear what the point is.

Further, the skills mentioned for each of the non Templar classes is pointless since most of them are not used in healing., but used in other roles.

Finally, Templars will still be a very strong presence in trials for healing and Warden will make a good healer to pair with them. If you are upset about the nerfs to Templars post your thoughts in the PTS section of the forums, but please do it in a more organized, concise post.

I'll definitely put some more of the original post in spoilers for those of us who won't read longer posts without them.

This is not PTS feedback or QQ thread though. It's a constructive thread of suggestions to buff the other 3 healing classes taking into account the superiority of Templar/Warden. ZOS is nerfing many unique Templar skills to bring them in line more with DKs/Sorcs/NBs, which is impossible since those healers don't offer the support that Templar healers do.

My suggestion is to give all of the classes access to their own unique healing skills, with 2 classes at most sharing powerful synergies.

For example:
- Spear Shards + made-up Fatiguing Siphon sharing a Stam return synergy cooldown
- My made up Sorc Crystal Rejuvenation and DK Cauterize being powerful class-based healing abilities that cater specifically to healers

I know Templars and Wardens will still be a very strong trial presence. They'll be the only trial presence for the Healing role. I think a lot of players would like for Templar to get un-nerfed though and the three weak healimg classes brought up so people don't laugh when a non-Temp/Warden healer joins group.

deadvolt

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

Vaoh

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

1. Templars (and Wardens) are the only accepted healers, even with the nerfs.

2. Sorcs/DKs/NBs will never be on par unless Templars lose every unique skill they have. To get these three classes on par, they need a few of their own powerful, *unique* Healer-oriented skills.

3. Tanks are strictly DKs (or Wardens). There is no reason to take DKs/Sorcs/Templars because they lack the sheer amount of support that their competitors have. This is a different topic of discussion and it'd take a lengthy thread to go in detail

Here's your typical strong Morrowind trial group:
Main Tank: DK/Warden
Off tank: DK/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
DPS: Can't confirm what the best setups for DPS are yet.

I want Templars to keep the Major Mending nerf that replaced it with Minor Mending, but also tie Major Mending to Rune Focus. Repentance should not have its allied Stamina return removed, but rather decreased by 50%. Spear Shards should have its synergy made unique again. At the same time buff the three underperforming healing specs. I laid out my ideas for these changes more detailed in the main post.

Just my thoughts on the role of healing at least

Calandrae

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

I seriously fail to see how making Templars worse healers is going to make the class more viable at tanking or dps. Would be a totally different case if we were given some new skills/morphs to support tanking for example, but that's not what the patch notes offer us. All ZoS is doing is making the class weaker as a whole.

I suck at singing but am pretty good at languages/writing. Making me have worse literary skills would not suddenly transfer me into a good vocalist... I would still sound like a fire siren.

Also all classes can already heal/tank/dps whatever at most content of the game. I have tanked all normal dungeons and many vet dungeons with my templar just by grabbing a taunt, some heavy armor and a sword/shield. And the same applies to all the classes. The differences come to play at harder content, as it should be imo. Otherwise the classes might just as well get dumped all together. At least that way the playing field would truly be "equal" (whatever that means in the context of a MMO).

Vaoh

Northern_Eve wrote: »

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

I seriously fail to see how making Templars worse healers is going to make the class more viable at tanking or dps. Would be a totally different case if we were given some new skills/morphs to support tanking for example, but that's not the case. All ZoS is doing is making the class weaker as a whole.

I suck at singing but am pretty good at languages/writing. Making me have worse literary skills would not suddenly transfer me into a good vocalist...

Exactly.

What I've said applies to tanking as well, not just healing.

There are morphs for plenty of class-defining skills that are weak for all playstyles and need significant buffing/replacement. If ZOS used these to buff Tanks and Healers of classes where these roles are non-existant things could be completely fixed

Like for Sorcs, look at Crystal Blast and Shattering Prison! Completely inferior morphs. Crystal Blast is a joke compared to Crystal Fragments and Shattering Prison does almost zero damage vs Encase's powerful long-duration snare. Easy candidates for buffing tanks/heakers.

DK has an actual healing skill morph, Cauterize, that has so much potential but is currently garbage.

Things like this..... it's why Temps have been the only "good" healers since launch.

VampiricByNature

I like the unique things each class brings to the table.

If ZOS wants every class to be created equal with the same capabilities, maybe they need to just do away with class specific skills. Trying to balance apples and oranges doesn't always work.

Same goes with trying to balance pve and pvp at the same time. Apples and oranges.

FlyLionel

I like how Zos listened and gave Templar spear shards half of their other resource now as well, major mending is still stripped I believe and can only come to conclude that it is only due to PVP. Only real way to give Temp back their mending imo would be for this to go to live and Templars survivability be pretty bad; with minor though I think they will do just fine. People on the PTS gotta talk more about these things..If they haven't already.

deadvolt

I have other suggestions than how about zos introduce a forth archetype as a support class to debuff and feed resources to the tank healer and dps it has been done very well in other games like dcuo were an controller aka battery feeds the group power and debuffs the adds also but doing this alot of the changes made to resources in the patch would not be need as dps would lower as of a result of needing 1or2 battery roles in a raid to supply resource to the group?

Aquanova

Templars and Wardens will still be the go to classes for healing. Sorcs can get away with it I think but DK? I don't think so. Not with the cost reduction CP removal.

NordSwordnBoard

I was just trying to explain this to a sorc healer the other night. Healing is about support as much as heals and templar simply outshines other classes there (currently).

The bottom line was things beyond your control, like judgements from dungeon/trial groups and simply the class limits themselves just point you to templar. It's the most versataile support.

It isn't templar's fault, but they are being accomodated for it.

exeeter702

Aquanova wrote: »

Templars and Wardens will still be the go to classes for healing. Sorcs can get away with it I think but DK? I don't think so. Not with the cost reduction CP removal.

Fortunately your thought is not really accurate. Beta testing across the healers currently suggests otherwise. Dk in fob at the moment is very strong, especially because they can afford without issue to maintian near 100 percent major mending uptime.

But this thread has simply become an echoing chamber full of speculation and no hands on experience so i don't expect much.

idk

Vaoh wrote: »

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

1. Templars (and Wardens) are the only accepted healers, even with the nerfs.

2. Sorcs/DKs/NBs will never be on par unless Templars lose every unique skill they have. To get these three classes on par, they need a few of their own powerful, *unique* Healer-oriented skills.

3. Tanks are strictly DKs (or Wardens). There is no reason to take DKs/Sorcs/Templars because they lack the sheer amount of support that their competitors have. This is a different topic of discussion and it'd take a lengthy thread to go in detail

Here's your typical strong Morrowind trial group:
Main Tank: DK/Warden
Off tank: DK/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
DPS: Can't confirm what the best setups for DPS are yet.

I want Templars to keep the Major Mending nerf that replaced it with Minor Mending, but also tie Major Mending to Rune Focus. Repentance should not have its allied Stamina return removed, but rather decreased by 50%. Spear Shards should have its synergy made unique again. At the same time buff the three underperforming healing specs. I laid out my ideas for these changes more detailed in the main post.

Just my thoughts on the role of healing at least

@Vaoh

If a Templar can tank the most challenging trial in HM today when can they not do it in Morrowind?

exeeter702

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

1. Templars (and Wardens) are the only accepted healers, even with the nerfs.

2. Sorcs/DKs/NBs will never be on par unless Templars lose every unique skill they have. To get these three classes on par, they need a few of their own powerful, *unique* Healer-oriented skills.

3. Tanks are strictly DKs (or Wardens). There is no reason to take DKs/Sorcs/Templars because they lack the sheer amount of support that their competitors have. This is a different topic of discussion and it'd take a lengthy thread to go in detail

Here's your typical strong Morrowind trial group:
Main Tank: DK/Warden
Off tank: DK/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
DPS: Can't confirm what the best setups for DPS are yet.

I want Templars to keep the Major Mending nerf that replaced it with Minor Mending, but also tie Major Mending to Rune Focus. Repentance should not have its allied Stamina return removed, but rather decreased by 50%. Spear Shards should have its synergy made unique again. At the same time buff the three underperforming healing specs. I laid out my ideas for these changes more detailed in the main post.

Just my thoughts on the role of healing at least

@Vaoh

If a Templar can tank the most challenging trial in HM today when can they not do it in Morrowind?

They absolutely can. The luminous shard change helps templar tanks immensely. The only thing dk tanks provide is a single block value passive and ult gen, that alone somehow established them as primary tanks. *shrug.

No, talons chains inhale minor maim do not make the tank in vet trials.

Olupajmibanan

How about making Obisidan Shield affecting 12 players (up from 6) and preventing it to affect pets?
Wouldn't that make DK a really unique healer which can provide effectively bonus max hp for everyone? It will also help stamina DPS with their really limited survivability.

Incognitius

Vaoh wrote: »

That's the issue though.

Dragonknights, Sorcerers, and Nightblades are garbage as Healers. The only reason to take one is because someone wanted to feel special. They are all completely inferior Templars, and now Wardens as well with Morrowind.

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I was just trying to explain this to a sorc healer the other night. Healing is about support as much as heals and templar simply outshines other classes there (currently).

The bottom line was things beyond your control, like judgements from dungeon/trial groups and simply the class limits themselves just point you to templar. It's the most versataile support.

It isn't templar's fault, but they are being accomodated for it.

As someone who is currently playing a lot with a sorc healer (in vDungeons not trials) I could take offense at this. I'd say with 10% more magicka recovery, elemental drain, lightning wall, SPC and 5% cost reduction from Worm, I would be bringing plenty of support. But hey, I don't mind improvement. So, fine, sure, I'm that garbage special snowflake sorc healer, please buff me. Using unique class skills is more appealing than resto skills, and it would give useless morphs a purpose.

I also like the suggestions for my dragonknight and nightblade healer. An yeah, not a fan of the nerfs on templars either, got one of those too.

PS: Why isn't Healing Ward mentioned as a useful healer skill? I find it very useful when party member is sucking up burst heals like sponge.

PS2: Looking forward to give warden a spin. Those animations

Galwylin

Its a bit sad for what ZOS wants to accomplish by punishing Templars. I think people would still choose a nerfed Templar over any other class. So, they've achieved nothing. Those other classes are just not designed seriously as healer that in general people will still see Templar as top healer. Its another case of ZOS doing something for one reason and telling us something different. If you seriously want to make other classes viable for healing then you give them the tools. This Templar thing does nothing to help them.

I do think some of the suggestion should really be considered. Way too much crap skills. Wanting to increase healing ability. Its a no-brainer and great someone went into detail why and what might to do about it.

Vaoh

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

1. Templars (and Wardens) are the only accepted healers, even with the nerfs.

2. Sorcs/DKs/NBs will never be on par unless Templars lose every unique skill they have. To get these three classes on par, they need a few of their own powerful, *unique* Healer-oriented skills.

3. Tanks are strictly DKs (or Wardens). There is no reason to take DKs/Sorcs/Templars because they lack the sheer amount of support that their competitors have. This is a different topic of discussion and it'd take a lengthy thread to go in detail

Here's your typical strong Morrowind trial group:
Main Tank: DK/Warden
Off tank: DK/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
DPS: Can't confirm what the best setups for DPS are yet.

I want Templars to keep the Major Mending nerf that replaced it with Minor Mending, but also tie Major Mending to Rune Focus. Repentance should not have its allied Stamina return removed, but rather decreased by 50%. Spear Shards should have its synergy made unique again. At the same time buff the three underperforming healing specs. I laid out my ideas for these changes more detailed in the main post.

Just my thoughts on the role of healing at least

@Vaoh

If a Templar can tank the most challenging trial in HM today when can they not do it in Morrowind?

Simple. They're worse at it. You're purposely taking a weaker spec to say "hey, look at me! I did it on a non-DK!".

You can heal vMoL HM on a DK and tank it on a Nightblade if you want. However, it'll be far more difficult and you will provide less support to your group than if you were the "better" class for the job. This is why practically every single Healer mains Templar and tank mains DK in endgame PvE.

This isn't how it should be. On live (and Morrowind PTS) this is still the situation. Sure you can tank or heal vMoL HM on any class, but the support you can provide as a DK/Warden Tank or as a Templar/Warden Healer is superior to that of competing classes in those respective roles.

Vaoh

exeeter702 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

deadvolt wrote: »

My templar has been my main since this launch on console and I for one think they need this nerf to happen because if your a templar it is nearly expected of you to heal god forbid you might want to tank or even dps. Been a dps were second from the bottom just above nightblades, templar tank is niche like everyother tank build other than dk, these nerf help us lose that we are only good for healing and nothing else and still even with the nerfs to us we still number 1 for healing in the game.
Tanking and healing were never meant to be reserved for two class in the game and the nerf that are happening is zos trying to get back to there original vision of ever class can heal,tank and dps.

1. Templars (and Wardens) are the only accepted healers, even with the nerfs.

2. Sorcs/DKs/NBs will never be on par unless Templars lose every unique skill they have. To get these three classes on par, they need a few of their own powerful, *unique* Healer-oriented skills.

3. Tanks are strictly DKs (or Wardens). There is no reason to take DKs/Sorcs/Templars because they lack the sheer amount of support that their competitors have. This is a different topic of discussion and it'd take a lengthy thread to go in detail

Here's your typical strong Morrowind trial group:
Main Tank: DK/Warden
Off tank: DK/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
Healer: Templar/Warden
DPS: Can't confirm what the best setups for DPS are yet.

I want Templars to keep the Major Mending nerf that replaced it with Minor Mending, but also tie Major Mending to Rune Focus. Repentance should not have its allied Stamina return removed, but rather decreased by 50%. Spear Shards should have its synergy made unique again. At the same time buff the three underperforming healing specs. I laid out my ideas for these changes more detailed in the main post.

Just my thoughts on the role of healing at least

@Vaoh

If a Templar can tank the most challenging trial in HM today when can they not do it in Morrowind?

They absolutely can. The luminous shard change helps templar tanks immensely. The only thing dk tanks provide is a single block value passive and ult gen, that alone somehow established them as primary tanks. *shrug.

No, talons chains inhale minor maim do not make the tank in vet trials.

DKs have more than that One of their most powerful skills is Obsidian Shield, which is a fantastic support skill that provides your group small, spammable damage shields, grants you Major Mending, gives back Stamina, and provides you easy access to a powerful Ultimate-restoring passive.

Doesn't matter if the tank can sustain well casting tons of shards everywhere. You're making the most common mistake of endgame tanks. What separates really good tanks from those mediocre tanks that could never make it on raid teams is one thing - Support.

Tanking in ESO is very easy if you spec for it. A good tank for trials does not spec with tanking sets. They spec with Group Support sets and provide as much Group Support as possible, since the inherent job of tanking is doable this way as a DK. Alkosh, Ebon Armory, Powerful Assault, etc.

Healing is the same. Instead of wearing sets that increase your sustain like Lich, you slot Group Support sets like Worm Cult, Spell Power Cure, Hircine's Veneer, Healing Mage (Mending set), etc.

Like I said to the other guy, you can certainly tank on any class, and heal on any class, as well as DPS on a Stam NB as opposed to Magicka Sorc on live

If you want to be effective though, you'll stick to the classes that are tremendously more fitting for certain roles than others.

Vaoh

Galwylin wrote: »

Its a bit sad for what ZOS wants to accomplish by punishing Templars. I think people would still choose a nerfed Templar over any other class. So, they've achieved nothing. Those other classes are just not designed seriously as healer that in general people will still see Templar as top healer. Its another case of ZOS doing something for one reason and telling us something different. If you seriously want to make other classes viable for healing then you give them the tools. This Templar thing does nothing to help them.

I do think some of the suggestion should really be considered. Way too much crap skills. Wanting to increase healing ability. Its a no-brainer and great someone went into detail why and what might to do about it.

Ty! Someone who actually understands the situation!

There are some who have taken offense to my post since they are healing on non-Temps and are apparantly doing just fine. Those people unfortunateIy need to enter endgame PvE in order to understand the concept of this thread.

As explicitly stated two sentences into my main posts, this applies mainly to trial settings.

Vaoh

Incognitius wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

That's the issue though.

Dragonknights, Sorcerers, and Nightblades are garbage as Healers. The only reason to take one is because someone wanted to feel special. They are all completely inferior Templars, and now Wardens as well with Morrowind.

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I was just trying to explain this to a sorc healer the other night. Healing is about support as much as heals and templar simply outshines other classes there (currently).

The bottom line was things beyond your control, like judgements from dungeon/trial groups and simply the class limits themselves just point you to templar. It's the most versataile support.

It isn't templar's fault, but they are being accomodated for it.

As someone who is currently playing a lot with a sorc healer (in vDungeons not trials) I could take offense at this. I'd say with 10% more magicka recovery, elemental drain, lightning wall, SPC and 5% cost reduction from Worm, I would be bringing plenty of support. But hey, I don't mind improvement. So, fine, sure, I'm that garbage special snowflake sorc healer, please buff me. Using unique class skills is more appealing than resto skills, and it would give useless morphs a purpose.

I also like the suggestions for my dragonknight and nightblade healer. An yeah, not a fan of the nerfs on templars either, got one of those too.

PS: Why isn't Healing Ward mentioned as a useful healer skill? I find it very useful when party member is sucking up burst heals like sponge.

PS2: Looking forward to give warden a spin. Those animations

Wardens will definitely be awesome!

Steadfast Ward is the main skill, Healing Ward and Ward Ally (I mentioned this morph) are the morphs. Should you need to cast this skill, it is best you give yourself a damage shield too. Also it is not often the shield will survive very long meaning you'll basically lose the extra effect gained from Healing Ward. Ward Ally is considered the better morph for Healers in PvE. Both morphs are strong though.

You mention you have not entered any trials yet, and only run Vet dungeons. I made sure to explicitly state right at the beginning of my main post that this mainly applies to trial settings (aka endgame PvE). Every class is fine at every role for Vet dungeons.

In trials (particularly Vet trials) it is completely different. Since forever, Templars have been the only accepted healers and DKs the only accepted tanks. ZOS has decided to both nerf and/or remove some of the Templar's most unique abilities in hopes of bringing the classes in line, but Templar is still way ahead, right beside the Warden.

My suggestion here was to take some of the useless morphs of each class and make them powerful for Healers to solve the problem. It'd be an easy fix.

As it stands, you would have a very difficult time becoming a Vet dungeon healer purely on the basis of choosing the "incorrect" class. If you use a Templar, you'd go unquestioned.

Walties99

I think what's causing a lot of confusion is the level of play we're talking about. Yes you can play any of the classes to do anything and still win, but meta players who are only running for #1 leaderboard scores in trials think and play differently than people who are in the game to have fun. I think classes should be good and bad at certain things, otherwise why have them? This "balance" I'm about to get next patch seems like it won't be real helpful. Losing repentance, 10% off of blessed, the changes with magician and arcanist, losing major mending, shards and orbs sharing a synergy. I really can't think of 1 positive thing that's happening for templar healers. The monsters are still going to hit just as hard, and they don't have resources to complain about. Furthermore, on Xbox were probably still going to be stuck playing the exact same trials for months after the patch because they can't get it together to release working content or fix what's broken.