Rest in peace, dual wield magsorc

Mivryna

Those suggesting that dual world makes no sense for mages are probably not familiar with Elder Scrolls lore. Heavy armor is actually a commonly preferred type for sorcerers.

GreenhaloX

MagSorc shouldn't be DW, in the first place. Stick to inferno and lightning!

BigBragg

DW sorcs make no sense? That logic shall not pass.

Araviel2

Lexxypwns wrote: »

hassubhai wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Lol, in comparison to other specs, DW sorc is stronger next patch than on live, even with the frag nerf. The new eclipse is a much bigger nerf to DW sorc than the frag damage.

DW sorc is one of the few builds that won't need to stack sustain. When you're rocking a 55k magika pool its easier to retain your resources and since sorcs never had anything that restored resources based on MAX stat stacking they didn't get any nerfs in this area.

How is dw sorc stronger?

Well, sustain is easier on DW sorc than most specs in the game since your spammable and your hardest hitting damage are basically free. With a larger shield stack than traditional sorcs we don't need to spam shields on our back bar when under pressure, a single stack is often enough, and will still be free to cast against magika builds.

This means that while other specs have to stack more into sustain, DW sorc can get by without that and therefore they will have a higher relative damage output compared to many specs that will have to give up a larger portion of their damage. Its not that DW sorc got stronger, its that the nerfs hurt other classes more because when you have a huge inherent magika pool its just easier to sustain.

Furthermore, the 10% damage you lose on frag procs is made up for by master at arms CP passive, without this nerf frags would have been hitting significantly harder next patch, they'll still do significant damage though. On PTS I'm able to put out higher damage on frag procs than on live, but this is before the 10% damage nerf.

The only significant issue DW sorc faces next patch is the new eclipse, but really, it just makes lining up burst more difficult while making managing our stam easier.

no you don't get it,

Lexxypwns wrote: »

hassubhai wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

hassubhai wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Lol, in comparison to other specs, DW sorc is stronger next patch than on live, even with the frag nerf. The new eclipse is a much bigger nerf to DW sorc than the frag damage.

DW sorc is one of the few builds that won't need to stack sustain. When you're rocking a 55k magika pool its easier to retain your resources and since sorcs never had anything that restored resources based on MAX stat stacking they didn't get any nerfs in this area.

How is dw sorc stronger?

Well, sustain is easier on DW sorc than most specs in the game since your spammable and your hardest hitting damage are basically free. With a larger shield stack than traditional sorcs we don't need to spam shields on our back bar when under pressure, a single stack is often enough, and will still be free to cast against magika builds.

This means that while other specs have to stack more into sustain, DW sorc can get by without that and therefore they will have a higher relative damage output compared to many specs that will have to give up a larger portion of their damage. Its not that DW sorc got stronger, its that the nerfs hurt other classes more because when you have a huge inherent magika pool its just easier to sustain.

Furthermore, the 10% damage you lose on frag procs is made up for by master at arms CP passive, without this nerf frags would have been hitting significantly harder next patch, they'll still do significant damage though. On PTS I'm able to put out higher damage on frag procs than on live, but this is before the 10% damage nerf.

The only significant issue DW sorc faces next patch is the new eclipse, but really, it just makes lining up burst more difficult while making managing our stam easier.

Sustain on dw magsorc is far hard and this is coming from experience of playing both for an extreme amount of time also the difference in shield size is negligible.

If you think that then why would you ever have played DW sorc? They never had more burst, wrath+heavy inferno+frag proc+curse is just as much burst as a DW sorc could manage.

Literally on live you can run DW sorc with 40 into cost reduction, 0 mag regen, 0 regen set pieces, 0 regen/cost reduction jewels and sustain infinitely, if you think its harder to sustain on DW sorc than destro sorc you've obviously been playing DW sorc wrong.

Let's anazlyze the difference in their rotations and why sustain is easier on DW.

DW sorc:

Shield stack(bigger harness means more magika return from harness means more free sustain)- bar swap - curse - wrath - entropy - frag proc if available, if not repeat.

Destro sorc:

Shield stack(smaller harness means you'll have get less return, therefore less sustain) - bar swap - la - curse - la - wrath - la - pulse(much more costly than entropy) - medium weave+frag proc is available, if not repeat.

So tell me, how does the build with the more resource intensive rotation, smaller resource pool, and less free sustain from harness allegedly have better sustain?

Also, the difference of shield stack between 42k mag and 55k mag is colossal, like 4k on the double shield stack and an extra 1kish magika from harness.

no why would a DW sorc stack 3 shields when we do well enough whit one?
you are missing the real potential of the current DW sorc, its one of the few sorc builds that can break the shield stacking meta because of our stronger shields, allowing us to stack more dmg buffs like combat prayer instead - hence stronger burst than the destro sorc.

clocksstoppe

>look at video
>enemy is spamming jesus beam at 100%hp player
>stop watching


Oh look it's another 1vx where the X is 5 clueless zerglings. I don't think the crystal frag nerf will make you any less effective against that.

hassubhai

clocksstoppe wrote: »

>look at video
>enemy is spamming jesus beam at 100%hp player
>stop watching


Oh look it's another 1vx where the X is 5 clueless zerglings. I don't think the crystal frag nerf will make you any less effective against that.

1vX is pretty much always against bad players. Thats kind of how it works.

Browiseth

clocksstoppe wrote: »

>look at video
>enemy is spamming jesus beam at 100%hp player
>stop watching


Oh look it's another 1vx where the X is 5 clueless zerglings. I don't think the crystal frag nerf will make you any less effective against that.

yea and they're sure making interesting and creative use of that dual wield huh

oh wait no they're not

Ihatenightblades

LegacyDM wrote: »

I wonder why @wrobel is so intent on killing dual wield magicka play style. He killed It on nb and now sorc. What's his deal? In his world does all magic have to be cast from a staff?! Lame.

I mean think about it how would 2 swords in real life benefit a player using magic abilites? Lol

"Like omg he has two swords his fireballs are gonna hurt so much more" xD

Ch4mpTW

EvilCroc wrote: »

Magic = staves. Mages with swords or daggers are ludicrous.

I've always felt this way. Even on other games. While there are such things as "battle mages" and "enchanted swordsmen", I always felt that a 'proper' mage should utilize a staff/wand. How does one truly have understanding of the arcane arts, when they roam about carrying a large sword or pair of them? At most, a mage should carry a dagger. As a tool for rituals, and maybe defense.

Then again, I also have an issue with mages not utilizing clothing. And essentially being forced to rely on armor. A mages armor should come about in the form of wards, and or enchanted pieces of clothing (e.g. robes). Not clunky bits of leather and or metal.

SanSan

good

ArchMikem

I want to be like Gandalf. Sword and Staff Skill Line ZOS please.

Father_X_Zombie

EvilCroc wrote: »

Magic = staves. Mages with swords or daggers are ludicrous.

Ever see LOTR? Gandalf has a sword

Lexxypwns

code65536 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

hassubhai wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

hassubhai wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Lol, in comparison to other specs, DW sorc is stronger next patch than on live, even with the frag nerf. The new eclipse is a much bigger nerf to DW sorc than the frag damage.

DW sorc is one of the few builds that won't need to stack sustain. When you're rocking a 55k magika pool its easier to retain your resources and since sorcs never had anything that restored resources based on MAX stat stacking they didn't get any nerfs in this area.

How is dw sorc stronger?

Well, sustain is easier on DW sorc than most specs in the game since your spammable and your hardest hitting damage are basically free. With a larger shield stack than traditional sorcs we don't need to spam shields on our back bar when under pressure, a single stack is often enough, and will still be free to cast against magika builds.

This means that while other specs have to stack more into sustain, DW sorc can get by without that and therefore they will have a higher relative damage output compared to many specs that will have to give up a larger portion of their damage. Its not that DW sorc got stronger, its that the nerfs hurt other classes more because when you have a huge inherent magika pool its just easier to sustain.

Furthermore, the 10% damage you lose on frag procs is made up for by master at arms CP passive, without this nerf frags would have been hitting significantly harder next patch, they'll still do significant damage though. On PTS I'm able to put out higher damage on frag procs than on live, but this is before the 10% damage nerf.

The only significant issue DW sorc faces next patch is the new eclipse, but really, it just makes lining up burst more difficult while making managing our stam easier.

Sustain on dw magsorc is far hard and this is coming from experience of playing both for an extreme amount of time also the difference in shield size is negligible.

If you think that then why would you ever have played DW sorc? They never had more burst, wrath+heavy inferno+frag proc+curse is just as much burst as a DW sorc could manage.

Literally on live you can run DW sorc with 40 into cost reduction, 0 mag regen, 0 regen set pieces, 0 regen/cost reduction jewels and sustain infinitely, if you think its harder to sustain on DW sorc than destro sorc you've obviously been playing DW sorc wrong.

Let's anazlyze the difference in their rotations and why sustain is easier on DW.

DW sorc:

Shield stack(bigger harness means more magika return from harness means more free sustain)- bar swap - curse - wrath - entropy - frag proc if available, if not repeat.

Destro sorc:

Shield stack(smaller harness means you'll have get less return, therefore less sustain) - bar swap - la - curse - la - wrath - la - pulse(much more costly than entropy) - medium weave+frag proc is available, if not repeat.

So tell me, how does the build with the more resource intensive rotation, smaller resource pool, and less free sustain from harness allegedly have better sustain?

Also, the difference of shield stack between 42k mag and 55k mag is colossal, like 4k on the double shield stack and an extra 1kish magika from harness.

LOL! So with the wishful wave of a hand, you magically gain 13K extra magicka because you use DW instead of destro. Mmhm.

And you really think Entropy which hits like a wet noodle and is good only for the empower is better than something with utility like Crushing Shock? Mmhm.

And you think that the loss of all that light and heavy weaving is good for your damage? Damage that, BTW, costs you zero resources? Mmhm.

This is hilarious.

The way you build DW sorc adds a significant amount of magika over a destro sorc. Since you need less sustain you can build for more max mag, which allows you to gain sustain, damage, and defense.

I clearly never said DW sorc is better than destro, idk why you're coming here so full of yourself. In this very thread and many others I've stated that destro/resto is the meta for a reason, that doesn't mean that DW sorc doesn't work.

Its a very strong spec on live and relative to the rest of the class specs in morrowind it will be stronger than on live. None of this is even debatable, I'm not sure why you come here being an ***.

Vercingetorix

Good, dual-wield magic users shouldn't have ever existed in the first place. It makes no sense to cast magic from a damn sword... Casters burn enemies with staves and warriors bludgeon enemies with weapons. While I support build diversity, LOGIC should still exist in some form when game design comes into play.

hassubhai

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Good, dual-wield magic users shouldn't have ever existed in the first place. It makes no sense to cast magic from a damn sword... Casters burn enemies with staves and warriors bludgeon enemies with weapons. While I support build diversity, LOGIC should still exist in some form when game design comes into play.

Nothing about eso is meant to be even remotely logical thats the whole selling point of the fantasy genre

Biro123

I've mostly used DW on my sorc, but will probably stop this patch. Frags is just too easily countered.
Look what's changed lately..

New Sword n shield ulti that reflects, which is dirt cheap so has a huge uptime (esp. On ulti recov builds)

Wings change to not reflect CS - which gives more uptime to reflect frags.

Changes to resource guards which keep spamming eclipse

Release of Miats, causing most frags to be dodged/blocked.


And next patch, eclipse buff, and new warden reflects..

A frags-focussed build wirh no light/hvt attacks is gonna be just too unreliable..


I mean it kills potatoes, very easily and very quickly, but is too easily hard-counterd by any half-decent player (which most are, to be fair)

Izaki

LegacyDM wrote: »

I wonder why @wrobel is so intent on killing dual wield magicka play style. He killed It on nb and now sorc. What's his deal? In his world does all magic have to be cast from a staff?! Lame.

Dual Wield Sorc has been "officially" dead since the Inevitable/Proxy Det and Dawnbreaker changes. It has still continued to live on as a much more niche and specialized playstyle, but now its pretty much RIP. I still think that one-shotting people with Frags will be possible though xD

GrigorijMalahevich

Biggest dw mag sorc nerfs were - trapping webs becoming a stam ability and DB scaling with mighty, using entropy as your spammable is just sad. This is when I stopped playing DW.

Shgon_Dunstan

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

Magic = staves. Mages with swords or daggers are ludicrous.

I've always felt this way. Even on other games. While there are such things as "battle mages" and "enchanted swordsmen", I always felt that a 'proper' mage should utilize a staff/wand. How does one truly have understanding of the arcane arts, when they roam about carrying a large sword or pair of them? At most, a mage should carry a dagger. As a tool for rituals, and maybe defense.

Then again, I also have an issue with mages not utilizing clothing. And essentially being forced to rely on armor. A mages armor should come about in the form of wards, and or enchanted pieces of clothing (e.g. robes). Not clunky bits of leather and or metal.

Personally, the main problem with this mindset is... AFAIK there is nothing remotely special about TES staffs. They are simply a ceremonial "I am a mage" badge even in universe. Mechanically speaking nothing they do is limited to the form of a wooden stick, and a lot of TES magic casting is simply done with your hands anyway.

And again, we aren't even playing "mages" we are playing "sorcerers". Which are quite a different thing in TES, and one much more focused on weapons and armor then a pure mage.

On the other hand, the whole light clothing thing is pretty easily explained(in both TES and most things that do it) as simply heavy clothes and armor interfering with the flow of magic energy into the mage from the world around them. That, and the robes often have runes and the like to aid said flow even more.

Kay1

hassubhai wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

>look at video
>enemy is spamming jesus beam at 100%hp player
>stop watching


Oh look it's another 1vx where the X is 5 clueless zerglings. I don't think the crystal frag nerf will make you any less effective against that.

1vX is pretty much always against bad players. Thats kind of how it works.

I 1vXd former 1v1 Tournaments winners, Dro Matra skinned and Flawless conquerors who are in the Leaderboard.

How do you explain that? They are bad?

Vaoh

Okay......

So now we have Staves for all Magicka characters..... and then daggers, swords, axes, maces, greatswords, battleaxes, mauls, shields, and bows for Stamina characters.

To put it simply, we have 1 usable offensive Magicka weapon, 1 mediocre Magicka weapon (except for healers), 3 usable offensive Stamina weapons, and 1 offensive/defensive Stamina weapon.

Maybe it's time to give Magicka something new?

We datamined One Hand and Rune. We know of Spellcrafting! If were going to choose now to force Magicka builds into 1 weapon we should implement that new Magicka weapon or the ability to craft spells too.

Shgon_Dunstan

Vaoh wrote: »

Okay......

So now we have Staves for all Magicka characters..... and then daggers, swords, axes, maces, greatswords, battleaxes, mauls, shields, and bows for Stamina characters.

To put it simply, we have 1 usable offensive Magicka weapon, 1 mediocre Magicka weapon (except for healers), 3 usable offensive Stamina weapons, and 1 offensive/defensive Stamina weapon.

Maybe it's time to give Magicka something new?

We datamined One Hand and Rune. We know of Spellcrafting! If were going to choose now to force Magicka builds into 1 weapon we should implement that new Magicka weapon or the ability to craft spells too.

Runes seem an odd choice. But I do recall finally finding the lore book that explained what the hell "skyshards" are in lore(which is exactly what they sound like. But sadly I can't seem to find the book whose name I don't remember in my memory), but along with that it also mentioned stones the high elves had been able to make enchanted to cast spells. Which sounded a lot like those gems in Arena and Daggerfall that worked like reusable scrolls. The book actually gave them a name, but I don't remember that it was.

Edit: Silly me. Should of just checked the wiki.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aetherial_Fragments

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Culanda_Stone