Is the Vocal minority a myth?

SnubbS

ParaNostram wrote: »

THIS IS IN BETA TESTING AND SUBJECT TO CHANGE.

I'm not one of the people screaming about the changes, I disagree with basically every change apart from the CP changes. I'm simply at the point of hopelessness, I don't think it'll matter what I say, or what anyone else says for that matter. There's nothing wrong with stating your negative opinions—if you have faith in ZoS, if you believe your words can make a difference, you should go for it.

However, the part of your post that I quoted is laughable.

How many nerfs have actually been reverted in the last 4-5 patches? The haunting curse change, that's one—so where are the others? What about poisons? They were at 30% in PTS—literally everyone said they hated them, and that they were too strong, so ZoS bumps them to 60% and ships them out. That was, and will probably forever be one of the most egregious '*** your opinions' I've ever seen. There is no reason to suspect that even 10-20% of these changes will be reverted—so if you disagree with them, you have every right to be frustrated and angry. I just happen to "know" (not actually) that not much, if anything is going to be reverted. Maybe Siphoning Attacks—honestly that's the only thing big change I can imagine being reverted, Gilliam's video was that good.

Balamoor

It's no myth the same handful of constant complainers who use alt accounts from time to time to make it seem like more than there actually is...anyone who spends any time on the forums starts to see the pattern, even the reps acknowledge it at PAX

Graydon

Every MMO Forum has their daily complaint threads.

Every single MMO game, even the most successful ones.

Kiralyn2000

Vocal Minority is what internet forums run on.

visionality

The majority of players and the majority of complainers are definitely not largely overlapping. Most players play the game instead of spending time on the forums, and many of the posts are simply not worth reading at all (especially some of the whining and hating threads).

When it comes to complaints, you can easily distinguish between real players and forum whiners. Real players will put down an argument in their post, stating a problem and what causes it and sometimes even ideas for solutions. They may not always represent the majority of players, but they represent players who are involved and care for the game. Those threads are, unfortunately, the minority in this forum.

Whiners will just flame, normally not using any argument at all but stating some "abuse" or "bug" or "OP" (a very famous word amongst whiners). You can easily identify them by global demands for nerfs against classes they don't play, insults against other forum members or Zenimax in general or accusations of "elitism" against everybody who does not agree with them and dares to suggest that they are not using game mechanics correctly.

Prof_Bawbag

I think the game still gets a lot of flak from outside because a lot of those people doing it only know the game from the mess it once was. They stopped playing it and that is their lasting memory of it. You see the same happening with others game. Assassin's Creed: Unity being the first one that springs to mind. Whenever people discuss the game, a number of people will state it's a broken mess. It's not, it's been fixed, but doesn't mean their opinion isn't valid as they're giving their opinion on what they played.

If devs want positivity, the onus is on them to make sure they deliver from day 1, not 3 weeks later when people have moved on and will never forget. I buy games to play from day 1, not days or weeks later. If the game is deemed good enough to ask full price for, it should be in a reasonable condition straight from the box so to speak. I'm not a beta tester. Too many devs nowadays rely on people's acceptance that games commonly contain large issues on day one. When did that become acceptable? It's not, yet many of us defend the practice and on some occasion I have done it myself, so I'm not taking the moral high ground here.

WalksonGraves

You can assume that if a lot of people have the exact complaint that ZOS is the problem.

DocFrost72

Accurate myth.

Lysette

Well, I have been one of those complainers and I stopped playing ESO 8 months ago even I still have an ESO+ membership until August 2017.My main issue with ZOS has been those RNG crates, which I have deemed dangerous for some people with impulse control disorders or gambling addiction - if this is actually a problem, I cannot tell, because I did not care about ESO during the last 6 months at all. I logged in this morning for a little bit to look at the changes and maybe it is less of a problem than I thought it would be, due to the way in which it is implemented now. But then again I think, maybe the implementation of these crates would have been worse, if we would not have been that vocal about this issue in the forums.

I got an invitation to the Morrowind beta test and I might or might not give it a go. My relationship to ZOS and TES is broken and it will never be the same again since those RNG crates - it is not really about the money, I spent around 1500 Euros during that time, where I have been away from ESO on other games - and I am having great fun playing those - if I will ever have real fun playing ESO again, I cannot tell yet. Might be, I will have a look at Morrowind and drop ESO forever - or maybe play ESO from time to time again a little. But it will just be a little, ZOS has just scared me away from ESO with their greediness.

And I do not know yet, how I think about that Morrowind is treated as an Upgrade instead of a DLC - looks again like greediness to me - ESO+ was meant to give access to all content during membership and now it will no longer do that. Well, I will have a further look on ESO and eventually Morrowind - I do not even have a real drive to do that actually - my relationship to ZOS and ESO might just be too damaged to ever be fixed again - well, I spend about 200 Euros per month on gaming and there are other companies out there, quite happy to take it and make me happy - I do not need ZOS or ESO, who don't.

Well, it is just sad - 13 years with a good relationship to TES all gone due to ZOS with their awful greediness. My anger is still there, I can feel it, it is not gone and maybe never will - it is ZOS's fault, that my relationship to TES and maybe other Bethesda games is now broken. If I cannot overcome my anger about this, none of the Zenimax companies will ever get money from me again - none - not even for Fallout. And that I feel so reluctant to even try Morrowind, shows how much damaged my relationship to ZOS actually is - not even a free beta test is helping it. Maybe that is something ZOS should think about - or maybe not, they might just not care and do their thing - so be it then.

Edit: and then I see that limited island homestead for 15,000 crowns - seriously?- About 100 Euro for a homestead in an MMO?- I can buy 2 fully fleshed out huge games for that money - ZOS really is a damned greedy company - and I bet that the furniture can still not be used, but I did not try it - it is just what I am expecting from ZOS - that they do not fix what is required to be fixed, but just care for the money.

Lysette

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

I think the game still gets a lot of flak from outside because a lot of those people doing it only know the game from the mess it once was. They stopped playing it and that is their lasting memory of it. You see the same happening with others game. Assassin's Creed: Unity being the first one that springs to mind. Whenever people discuss the game, a number of people will state it's a broken mess. It's not, it's been fixed, but doesn't mean their opinion isn't valid as they're giving their opinion on what they played.

If devs want positivity, the onus is on them to make sure they deliver from day 1, not 3 weeks later when people have moved on and will never forget. I buy games to play from day 1, not days or weeks later. If the game is deemed good enough to ask full price for, it should be in a reasonable condition straight from the box so to speak. I'm not a beta tester. Too many devs nowadays rely on people's acceptance that games commonly contain large issues on day one. When did that become acceptable? It's not, yet many of us defend the practice and on some occasion I have done it myself, so I'm not taking the moral high ground here.

i can confirm that - Unity is actually fixed and runs like a charm now - but you are right, whenever I talk about Unity with people, they say it is broken and a mess. They simply never tried it again - that is the power of the first impression.

Zagnut123Zagnut123

It is a minority making these post because the majority of players in this game are casual gamers that have very little invested and don't mind if they can't clear certain content. Even the hard core raiders see no reason to flock to the forums to whine and cry because they will just leave for another game to raid in and come back when things change to there liking. Personally I'm not to bothered by the changes the only thing that I don't like is entire guilds I'm in are prepping to leave for greener pasture.

DaveMoeDee

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Vipstaakki wrote: »

Indeed they do. If you ever start observing who the people that *** and moan are. You will notice that it is usually the same small minority over and over again.

"The wise have always said the same things, and fools, who are the majority have always done just the opposite."
(Arthur Schopenhauer)

There are lots of minorities. And many of those minorities are crackpots.

DaveMoeDee

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Vipstaakki wrote: »

Indeed they do. If you ever start observing who the people that *** and moan are. You will notice that it is usually the same small minority over and over again.

"The wise have always said the same things, and fools, who are the majority have always done just the opposite."
(Arthur Schopenhauer)

"Ignorance speaks loudly, so as to be heard; but its volume proves reason to doubt every word."
(Wes Fessler)

It's very easy to find a quote or a proverb to back up any argument, it doesn't make it any more true doing so.

truth is matter of perspective.

Meaningless platitude.

DaveMoeDee

I joined this forum to get more information about the game.

A significant number of people frequent here to complain, hoping ZOS would oil the squeaky wheels.

svartorn

Vipstaakki wrote: »

Indeed they do. If you ever start observing who the people that *** and moan are. You will notice that it is usually the same small minority over and over again.

We probably wouldn't make complaint threads over and over again if the problems in the game were actually addressed instead of new gambling crate *** being a priority.

Tandor

svartorn wrote: »

Vipstaakki wrote: »

Indeed they do. If you ever start observing who the people that *** and moan are. You will notice that it is usually the same small minority over and over again.

We probably wouldn't make complaint threads over and over again if the problems in the game were actually addressed instead of new content like Morrowind being a priority.

Fixed for you.

Why pick on just one thing when ZOS are clearly working on other things as well?

Yolokin_Swagonborn

This game is unique in that for a lot of people, it is their first MMO. Some really don't know what to expect. What level of quality they should get, what level of developer responsiveness, etc.

If you have played previous MMOs, which MMO you have played also makes a huge difference on how you rate this game.

I have found that those who have come from early WOW, give this game a lot of slack and often say well Wow didn't have that feature (14 years ago) when it started so give eso some more slack.

However, people that come from games like guild wars II, and have seen the PvP and how it functions in that game, are dumbfounded by the zerging and balance issues that persist in this game.

But to answer OP's question, I think their would be a lot more backlash in the forums if players could compare ESO to the way developers behave in other games.

Lets just take one example: Communication

Here is the forum profile page for the lead gameplay designer for starcraft II. 239 Posts on the forums. Interaction with the community. In depth technical analysis on gameplay changes.

Now take a look at this Profile. Notice a difference?

It is my theory that ESO only exists the way it does because it is difficult to compare to other games and beyond that, harder to compare to the quality you get from other things you spend money on.

• Would you go to a movie theater where the movie slowed down to 10FPS half way through during action scenes?
• Would you continue to subscribe to a magazine that promised you 12 issues per year, but then only delivered 10 issues and for the last two months produces a double sized "booklet" instead of a magazine with a flashy holographic cover and charged an extra $40 for it?

If you see ESO in a vacuum, it is hard to complain much because the game sets it own standard, as soon as you see ESO as a product on a market competing for your money alongside other comparable products, you start to get more "Vocal Minorities" pointing out the emperor has no clothes.

Shad0wfire99

Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »

No it is not a myth

The only people complaining on the forums are those with complaints.

The people with no complaints are usually too busy playing the game ;-)

Alot of the complaints are just from people afraid they'll lose their easymode with the next patch, or people screaming "nerf!!!!" rather than not being lazy and putting in the effort to Learn to Play, the more someone Learns to Play the easier it will be for them to Adapt and Overcome.

But either way all the boohooing needs to stop

You and this "easy mode" nonsense. If it were easy-mode, the "only 1% of players complete vMA and vet trials" bs wouldn't be a thing. Go ahead and post it 30 more times on 30 different forums. Won't make it any more true.

Kriogen

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

more people are starting to come forward and speak their minds. (finaly )

Alts or main accounts?

On topic: vocal minority is a fact. And the number of those that post is fixed. Not like 1% or 5%, but more like 20 or 30 of true unique players. And it doesn't make a lot of difference if game has 1000 active players or 10 million. Only a small number of players post and its a fixed number.

svartorn

Tandor wrote: »

svartorn wrote: »

Vipstaakki wrote: »

Indeed they do. If you ever start observing who the people that *** and moan are. You will notice that it is usually the same small minority over and over again.

We probably wouldn't make complaint threads over and over again if the problems in the game were actually addressed instead of new content like Morrowind being a priority.

Fixed for you.

Why pick on just one thing when ZOS are clearly working on other things as well?

Because people like me are on the PTS reporting problems with Morrowind and *none* of them will be addressed, and the DLC will be released nearly unplayable, like the entire history of this game.

They keep pushing new stuff instead of fixing old stuff.

svartorn

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

This game is unique in that for a lot of people, it is their first MMO. Some really don't know what to expect. What level of quality they should get, what level of developer responsiveness, etc.

If you have played previous MMOs, which MMO you have played also makes a huge difference on how you rate this game.

I have found that those who have come from early WOW, give this game a lot of slack and often say well Wow didn't have that feature (14 years ago) when it started so give eso some more slack.

However, people that come from games like guild wars II, and have seen the PvP and how it functions in that game, are dumbfounded by the zerging and balance issues that persist in this game.

But to answer OP's question, I think their would be a lot more backlash in the forums if players could compare ESO to the way developers behave in other games.

Lets just take one example: Communication

Here is the forum profile page for the lead gameplay designer for starcraft II. 239 Posts on the forums. Interaction with the community. In depth technical analysis on gameplay changes.

Now take a look at this Profile. Notice a difference?

It is my theory that ESO only exists the way it does because it is difficult to compare to other games and beyond that, harder to compare to the quality you get from other things you spend money on.

• Would you go to a movie theater where the movie slowed down to 10FPS half way through during action scenes?
• Would you continue to subscribe to a magazine that promised you 12 issues per year, but then only delivered 10 issues and for the last two months produces a double sized "booklet" instead of a magazine with a flashy holographic cover and charged an extra $40 for it?

If you see ESO in a vacuum, it is hard to complain much because the game sets it own standard, as soon as you see ESO as a product on a market competing for your money alongside other comparable products, you start to get more "Vocal Minorities" pointing out the emperor has no clothes.

A+++++ post

dday3six

Balamoor wrote: »

It's no myth the same handful of constant complainers who use alt accounts from time to time to make it seem like more than there actually is...anyone who spends any time on the forums starts to see the pattern, even the reps acknowledge it at PAX

You know the forum has an invitation process, so a person cannot just make alts for it.

Stovahkiin

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Few people visit the forums, only a portion of forum-goers are complaining.

Sustain nerfs are good

This. Someone get this person a cookie

Tandor

svartorn wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

svartorn wrote: »

Vipstaakki wrote: »

Indeed they do. If you ever start observing who the people that *** and moan are. You will notice that it is usually the same small minority over and over again.

We probably wouldn't make complaint threads over and over again if the problems in the game were actually addressed instead of new content like Morrowind being a priority.

Fixed for you.

Why pick on just one thing when ZOS are clearly working on other things as well?

Because people like me are on the PTS reporting problems with Morrowind and *none* of them will be addressed, and the DLC will be released nearly unplayable, like the entire history of this game.

They keep pushing new stuff instead of fixing old stuff.

I can appreciate that different people have different outlooks depending on their play style, so I assume you either PvP and/or do competitive PvE i.e. trials etc. I personally do neither, have played since PC launch and haven't experienced any significant issues of any type - a couple of broken quests, one fixed by me the other by ZOS the patch after I experienced the problem, and nothing performance-related at all. So for me and plenty of others no doubt the entire history of this game is not mired in near unplayability. I'm sorry your experience has been less satisfactory.

idk

Fingolfinn01 wrote: »

There are many complaint threads.

Is it true they only represent a small percentage of the player base?

For some of the topics yes. If you notice that some topics get a lot of interest really fast. Others die quickly and there are a few that have one or two people that respond every couple days to bump the thread to make it appear it has interest but a quick look and it is clear that it really does not have much interest. I looked at one yesterday that keep appearing and it is one person that is keeping it alive.

svartorn

Tandor wrote: »

svartorn wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

svartorn wrote: »

Vipstaakki wrote: »

Indeed they do. If you ever start observing who the people that *** and moan are. You will notice that it is usually the same small minority over and over again.

We probably wouldn't make complaint threads over and over again if the problems in the game were actually addressed instead of new content like Morrowind being a priority.

Fixed for you.

Why pick on just one thing when ZOS are clearly working on other things as well?

Because people like me are on the PTS reporting problems with Morrowind and *none* of them will be addressed, and the DLC will be released nearly unplayable, like the entire history of this game.

They keep pushing new stuff instead of fixing old stuff.

I can appreciate that different people have different outlooks depending on their play style, so I assume you either PvP and/or do competitive PvE i.e. trials etc. I personally do neither, have played since PC launch and haven't experienced any significant issues of any type - a couple of broken quests, one fixed by me the other by ZOS the patch after I experienced the problem, and nothing performance-related at all. So for me and plenty of others no doubt the entire history of this game is not mired in near unplayability. I'm sorry your experience has been less satisfactory.

Well yeah, if you don't play half the game, I suppose you don't notice the bugs. Surely you've encountered the woe that is the group finder? It's *never* worked.

Loading screens in cyrodiil have been a plague since the BEGINNING. Running through a field into a loading screen. Transporting from keep to keep with a 10 minute load screen. Take down a wall, charge the breach into a load screen. The list goes on.

Issues like unequipping facial accessories and jewelry have been there since their implementation. The list of bugs is too long to list.

svartorn

I've been playing the beta for morrowind and there is a whole area of the map you can't teleport from once you get there. I bet 5000 crowns that sh*t will *STILL* be there when the game goes live.

pod88kk

Most of the console players don't go on the forums. Of the 75 very active players in my guild you could probably count the ones who take part in the forum discussions on one hand. I think it's mainly because we feel as console players our voice isn't heard let alone taken note of. For example on console VMOL has been broken on consoles since Xmas and only now they're logging the info to try fix it

Korah_Eaglecry

The vocal minority might be a minority but they are almost always the most vested demographic of any larger population. When it comes to video games there are always going to be the silent majority. But sometimes that majoritys feelings arent important to every matter faced by the community. In games that are B2P and F2P the vast majority are players that are coming and going and dont have any real vested interest in the game besides a very casual experience. The larger issues that that game might face doesnt negatively impact that majority in a day to day hour to hour experience the way it does the minority. So to simply wave off the opinions and feelings of those who post here or on any game forums as just being a minority, especially when speaking of a game that has no vested majority, is an attempt to silence players.

Sometimes the minority should have the developers ear over the majority.

failkiwib16_ESO

There are tons of forum posters, but not as many regular users here. I assume the regular users here are 100-200 people max, spread all over the different sections of the forums.

• Many players come to the forums, when they get a bug or meet an issue in the game and want it fixed. After they get help with their issue, they never return.
• Many players who are in raidguilds have a forum account, and only post when their guild hits a record on Leaderboards and they want to show it off on the forums.
• Many guildmasters and officers have forum accounts, and only post in the Guild Recruitment section of the game.
• Many players do not understand certain things about the game, so they come to the forums to ask about them.
• Many players create ESO-related websites, guides and art they like to show off, so they come to the forums to create a thread about it, and stick to their own threads.
• Many players are not aware that the forums exist.
• Majority of the well established guild communities within ESO already have discord/teamspeak/facebook/websites and the players do not come to the forums to ask questions or chat, because they find answers and help within their own community.