ESO needs Proving Grounds for dungeon entry.

Phinix1

Last night I healed a group where the tank was always the last to run in and never taunted anything, one DPS was light attacking with ice staff only, and the other was spamming Acid Spray over and over. None of these people would have ever been able to queue for a dungeon with that level of competence in group play if there were some training prerequisite and skill barrier to entry like WoW offers with the Proving Grounds.

It would also be a great place for ZOS to offer people build pointers and suggestions to improve their playstyle. Things like "always put down an AOE of some kind before relying on any one skill," or how to weave attacks, etc. Having it clearly illustrated as "a better way" would help things "click" for people.

I realize not everyone has time to Google optimal builds but really they don't have to. So long as they are willing to adapt their play style to suit what they are doing, understanding that when you choose to join a group there are several other people relying on you to complete the task. You may not have time to Google builds, but some people only have a couple hours at a time to play, so it is always nice not to spend that time wiping.

A Proving Ground would ensure that people learn the basic skills and techniques that are needed not to be top DPS, but to be at least more of an asset then a liability to any group.

I think the best way to do it would be to have a group of 3 NPC's with you filling the roles of whatever you were not. So tank healers and another DPS if you were in DPS mode, 2 DPS and a healer if you were practicing tank, etc.

These NPC's would talk to you, give you advise, explain mechanics, and help you optimize your play style for whatever mode you were training. Being ESO I am sure they could make these's NPC's totally memorable.

EDIT: Sorry for the previous wording. It was unnecessarily terse and probably came off condescending. I was in a really bad mood this morning and probably should have waited to post.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Surely it is role, and duty, of "experienced" players to pass that along.
Rather than getting all "i don't have time for this" preachy.

3 months ago I was a CP250 player who had never been in a guild, hardly done any group content at all and was resigned to missing out on some aspects of the game because I just wasn't seeing any guild recruiting messages that "clicked" with me.

Now, I'm an Officer in the Guild I did join, helping less experienced (though some with more CP than me) players learn the ropes for Vet Dungeons and Pledges and starting to put together a shortlist of the players that want to put the effort into gearing, and skilling up for Trials. And in my "self time" I am gearing up and learning how to solo Vet content.

Without the Officers of my guild to show me the ropes I wouldn't be able to pass that along. No, I'm not an expert yet, I still learn things almost every run, and there's still times we make mistakes.

If experienced player CBA to pass on the knowledge they have, they have no one to blame but themselves if the newly minted CP160 players don't know what do to.

All The Best

tinythinker

There have been suggestions for having role-specific NPC-based instances as a kind of training ground that could be offered as mini-quests where you are asked to do things, to spot what certain mechanics look like, etc, beyond what you get in the Wailing Prison. Like an NPC saying "Use a taunt on that beast" and "OK now move it over to the statue and keep it there".

Haven't seen any ZOS comments on said suggestions.

Phinix1

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Surely it is role, and duty, of "experienced" players to pass that along.
Rather than getting all "i don't have time for this" preachy.

No. Helping others is great, but that is the job of FRIENDS and GUILDS, not people in the random queue.

At the point you make the choice to join a group of other players, it is YOUR responsibility to take the time to seek out friends and guildies to help you learn. You don't join a raid group and say "ok guys, now it's YOUR job to teach me how to play my class."

Some, no, MOST of that responsibility for learning how to play falls on the player, not everyone else in the world.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Phinix1 wrote: »

Some, no, MOST of that responsibility for learning how to play falls on the player, not everyone else in the world.

No one learns anything in a vacuum.

All The Best

Tandor

Endgame competitive trials etc are different things altogether, but basic dungeons shouldn't require players to pass a test or do homework on Google and Youtube in order to participate (once they've changed their build, gear and approach to the game following their research), and no-one should expect them to do so.

If the more discerning players want only to play with those of equal skill and experience to themselves then they shouldn't use PUG tools but stick to playing with those of their guildmates and friends who have proven themselves to be worthy of their company.

Meanwhile, they might ask themselves why so many MMO players prefer to solo these days rather than find themselves the butt of scorn and derision because they just want to play a game and not be bothered with all the elitist stuff that dominates a lot of the group agenda.

Phinix1

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Some, no, MOST of that responsibility for learning how to play falls on the player, not everyone else in the world.

No one learns anything in a vacuum.

All The Best

I am not sure how you think it is the responsibility of other paying customers to teach you how to play your own character. Yes it is nice when people help, but EVERYONE has the ability to use Google. How do you think those other players learned to play THEIR classes? Not in a vacuum. The internet is available to everyone.

I have no problem helping people if they ASK, and do so at an appropriate time, BEFORE they queue for group content. You do not queue for group content, say nothing, ask nothing, and just EXPECT the world to come to your aid. That is selfish and lazy and against common social conventions of basic mutual respect for other people's time.

My problem isn't with helping people. I craft free gear for people, make addons for people, give free advise to people. I help people with things they are having trouble with whenever I see them pose in chat.

But this attitude that you don't take the time to ask in chat, seek advise of guildies, search Google, or take your character's destiny into your own hands, then just expect others to take responsibility for you is unrealistic and unhealthy.

It is the TIMING that is the problem. Ask for help BEFORE you show up for the raid. Don't expect everyone else there to take the time to answer all your questions once the raid has started.

It is the old boy scout motto: BE PREPARED.

All the best.

Daemons_Bane

Phinix1 wrote: »

Last night I healed a group where the tank was always the last to run in and never taunted anything, one DPS was light attacking with ice staff only, and the other was spamming Acid Spray over and over. None of these people would have ever been able to queue for a dungeon and waste other people's time if there were some skill barrier to entry like what WoW offers with the Proving Grounds.

It would also be a great place for ZOS to offer people build pointers and suggestions to improve their playstyle. Things like "always put down an AOE of some kind before mashing one button to increase DPS" seem obvious but would really help it "click" for some people.

I realize not everyone has time to do a google search for a youtube video on improving their build, but if they are unwilling to put out the minimal effort, they should not be able to waste the time of other paying customers that do.

A Proving Ground would ensure that people who are happy with single player level of difficulty stay in single player, and people who are willing to put out the minimal effort to try new things and improve their build for group play are what you end up with in the group content.

Ok... Let's see here.. Let's start with the obvious one.. The WoW proving ground scenario.. Which requires nothing except a certain level to enter it.. To complete it though, you need to be able to beat the challenge.. Sounds a lot like how our ESO dungeons work already.. Learn by trying

Having put that aside, people learn their class by trying out how it works, in their own pace.. If you queue up for a random dungeon, you'd have learned to expect this.. Especially if you have tried WoW out.. The only way is for them to try, and receive helpful advice from their fellow players.. Putting them through some test area won't help them reach the level you seem to demand from them..

Yes some people do no have the time to research builds on websites and youtube, but these people pay just as much for their sub as you do, and have also bought the game.. And in the EULA and TOS, it says nothing about how good we should be to do the content, so take the elitist attitude and stick it where the sun don't shine
A proving ground would NOT solve the issues you seem to have.. Instead you should try playing with friends, or with none at all, since you can not handle other people's playstyle.. You have no right, in any way, to dictate how they should play..
Your view is simply too narrow for an mmo

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Phinix1 wrote: »

I am not sure how you think it is the responsibility of other paying customers to teach you how to play your own character.

I'm not sure how you think it is someone else's job to prepare themselves for YOUR speed-run.

All The Best

Alchemical

This would be an impossibly bad idea.

WoW required proving grounds to get into dungeons back in Warlords and not only did it NOT prevent bad players from getting into dungeon content, the difficult of said proving grounds was not the same for all classes and all roles. It was significantly harder to clear the Proving Grounds as a Warlock than a Druid, even if you are an otherwise skilled, competent player in dungeon appropriate gear. The result was often changing talents and skills around JUST to make the proving ground easier for that class. The Proving Ground did not prove that you knew how to play your role in a dungeon, only that you knew how to get past the proving ground gate.

Proving grounds were a total failure and that's why they were removed. Adding them to ESO means in a week there will be a 'Get through Proving Grounds EZ!' video up on Youtube that everyone will copy, cheese their way through it, and still continue to be bad and not have learned anything from it.

Now ZOS putting in an OPTIONAL interactive tutorial for those who want to understand dungeon mechanics would not only be a good idea, but something that is frankly inexcusable they don't already have. Equip good players with the tools to get better and they will. You can't force bad players to git gud against their will.

Phinix1

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

I am not sure how you think it is the responsibility of other paying customers to teach you how to play your own character.

I'm not sure how you think it is someone else's job to prepare themselves for YOUR speed-run.

All The Best

Now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. No one said anything about speed runs. That is something you introduced to try and make your argument sound more legitimate.

What I said was that if people are going to join other people to accomplish a goal, they should take the time to PREPARE themselves. Light attacking only or spamming one ability is NOT about a speed run, it is about basic respect for other people's time.

Graydon

Phinix1 wrote: »

Last night I healed a group where the tank was always the last to run in and never taunted anything, one DPS was light attacking with ice staff only, and the other was spamming Acid Spray over and over. None of these people would have ever been able to queue for a dungeon and waste other people's time if there were some skill barrier to entry like what WoW offers with the Proving Grounds.

It would also be a great place for ZOS to offer people build pointers and suggestions to improve their playstyle. Things like "always put down an AOE of some kind before mashing one button to increase DPS" seem obvious but would really help it "click" for some people.

I realize not everyone has time to do a google search for a youtube video on improving their build, but if they are unwilling to put out the minimal effort, they should not be able to waste the time of other paying customers that do.

A Proving Ground would ensure that people who are happy with single player level of difficulty stay in single player, and people who are willing to put out the minimal effort to try new things and improve their build for group play are what you end up with in the group content.

I think you need to find some friends and group with them.

Take yourself out of the random queue. I'm certain you won't be missed.

Daemons_Bane

Phinix1 wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

I am not sure how you think it is the responsibility of other paying customers to teach you how to play your own character.

I'm not sure how you think it is someone else's job to prepare themselves for YOUR speed-run.

All The Best

Now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. No one said anything about speed runs. That is something you introduced to try and make your argument sound more legitimate.

What I said was that if people are going to join other people to accomplish a goal, they should take the time to PREPARE themselves. Light attacking only or spamming one ability is NOT about a speed run, it is about basic respect for other people's time.

So other people have to respect your time, since you pay for it.. But you don't have to respect how THEY play?

Phinix1

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

So other people have to respect your time, since you pay for it.. But you don't have to respect how THEY play?

I really don't know how else to explain it that it would make sense.

If you choose to play a bow-wielding magicka-based provisioning master on your own time that is your choice, and more power to you. The game is VERY forgiving of playing how you want, and you can complete all the solo content easily naked with your fists if you choose to do so.

However, if you choose to join group content, where other people are counting on you to help them complete a task, it is just common courtesy to take the time to be prepared.

People take the "play how you want" excuse WAY too far sometimes. What if I showed up to a dungeon or raid and just stood there in my chef costume RPing baking sweetrolls? Do you honestly think it is everyone else in the game's responsibility to carry me?

I really don't get this thinking.

uzbachchi

Tandor wrote: »

Meanwhile, they might ask themselves why so many MMO players prefer to solo these days rather than find themselves the butt of scorn and derision because they just want to play a game and not be bothered with all the elitist stuff that dominates a lot of the group agenda.

Basically this. I haven't started group content yet at CP367 and it's mainly because of the scornful, derisive threads I read on here. They don't do anything to encourage me to try it, rather they discourage even thinking about it.

Sakiri

Phinix1 wrote: »

Last night I healed a group where the tank was always the last to run in and never taunted anything, one DPS was light attacking with ice staff only, and the other was spamming Acid Spray over and over. None of these people would have ever been able to queue for a dungeon and waste other people's time if there were some skill barrier to entry like what WoW offers with the Proving Grounds.

It would also be a great place for ZOS to offer people build pointers and suggestions to improve their playstyle. Things like "always put down an AOE of some kind before mashing one button to increase DPS" seem obvious but would really help it "click" for some people.

I realize not everyone has time to do a google search for a youtube video on improving their build, but if they are unwilling to put out the minimal effort, they should not be able to waste the time of other paying customers that do.

A Proving Ground would ensure that people who are happy with single player level of difficulty stay in single player, and people who are willing to put out the minimal effort to try new things and improve their build for group play are what you end up with in the group content.

WoW got rid of it for the simple reason that it doesn't work.

kongkim

Bad ide.

Phinix1

uzbachchi wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Meanwhile, they might ask themselves why so many MMO players prefer to solo these days rather than find themselves the butt of scorn and derision because they just want to play a game and not be bothered with all the elitist stuff that dominates a lot of the group agenda.

Basically this. I haven't started group content yet at CP367 and it's mainly because of the scornful, derisive threads I read on here. They don't do anything to encourage me to try it, rather they discourage even thinking about it.

Sorry, that was not my intention.

Yes there are people in the game that will scorn and ridicule people for not playing min-max builds, and those people are rude. But to suggest that someone on the forums saying a Proving Ground to test and help people improve prior to queueing for group content (which would help them avoid that scorn) are the same and scornful and ridiculing people is really not right.

No one was scorning anyone. No one was ridiculing anyone. All I suggested was that a training/proving ground to help people learn how to play better and set a minimum level challenge to enter group content would be beneficial to the game experience.

EDIT: My original phrasing was posted while in a wretched mood. So it probably sounded wretched. Appologies.

lauykanson

Well when you queue for pug games things like this are bound to happen from time to time and the only solution is to run pledges with friends, which I know is not always possible. I do feel the pain tho as I play as healer for pledges to bypass the long queue and sometimes just get bowtards that does consistent 10-12k dps while my BiS gear is sitting in the bag waiting do do 3 times their damage...its just sad stories

I dont know maybe ZOS can implement like a ranking system which trace your stats and allow you to play with people with the similar rank, but I guess its too much hassle for them

Daemons_Bane

Phinix1 wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

So other people have to respect your time, since you pay for it.. But you don't have to respect how THEY play?

I really don't know how else to explain it that it would make sense.

If you choose to play a bow-wielding magicka-based provisioning master on your own time that is your choice, and more power to you. The game is VERY forgiving of playing how you want, and you can complete all the solo content easily naked with your fists if you choose to do so.

However, if you choose to join group content, where other people are counting on you to help them complete a task, it is just common courtesy to take the time to be prepared.

People take the "play how you want" excuse WAY too far sometimes. What if I showed up to a dungeon or raid and just stood there in my chef costume RPing baking sweetrolls? Do you honestly think it is everyone else in the game's responsibility to carry me?

I really don't get this thinking.

Yet they did NOT stand still, according to what yourself wrote.. You just want them to live up to YOUR standards for teamplay.. They tried, and that's the point.. Turn it around.. You also chose to enter group content, knowing what it can bring.. Ergo, you signed up for what might happen.. If the group is not to your liking, leave it.. If not, man up and fight on.. If you win, all is good.. You don't seem to want to respect how they play, yet demand that they alter their style to suit you

Edit: And who says they were not prepared? They brought their gear yes? To some people, that is preparation

BuddyAces

If anyone out there is thinking about getting into streaming then just do this:
1. Roll a tank
2. Title your stream "Solo Q vet dungeons"
3. Profit as you have the single most funniest stream on twitch.

Personally I have become immune to pug vet dungeon groups as they give me a good laugh and every so often I poke the wife and make her look at the party I ended up with. There should be something ZOS can do to eliminate the folks who only have acid spray and snipe as the only abilities on their bar. I've had a group that literally could not beat bloodspawn. I don't have any answers for this but even a couple minute tutorial on something would help.

Phinix1

lauykanson wrote: »

Well when you queue for pug games things like this are bound to happen from time to time and the only solution is to run pledges with friends, which I know is not always possible. I do feel the pain tho as I play as healer for pledges...

Trust me, I am one of the most forgiving peeople you will meet. Even with the group I described I never said one mean thing to them. I didn't even assume to give them advise, which is the problem many here are missing. Most of these type of players don't WANT help. They take help, even kind, non-sarcastic or snarky help, as an insult to their skills and either curse you or send you hate or just drop group.

How are we supposed to help that sort of player?

One of these guys was literally not even using any abilities. Just light attack. ONLY light attack. The other guy was literally doing nothing but spamming Acid Spray. The ONLY thing I said in that run was "please try to stay grouped for heals" because they also had a habbit of standing in ALL red circles for their full duration.

Tell me that was being selfish? I don't think so!

jircris11

Phinix1 wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Surely it is role, and duty, of "experienced" players to pass that along.
Rather than getting all "i don't have time for this" preachy.

No. Helping others is great, but that is the job of FRIENDS and GUILDS, not people in the random queue.

At the point you make the choice to join a group of other players, it is YOUR responsibility to take the time to seek out friends and guildies to help you learn. You don't join a raid group and say "ok guys, now it's YOUR job to teach me how to play my class."

Some, no, MOST of that responsibility for learning how to play falls on the player, not everyone else in the world.

Actually helping others whom are less experienced is the job of those who have the knowledge to share. This is the issue with the mmo community it's become self absorbed and unhelpful.

Daemons_Bane

Phinix1 wrote: »

lauykanson wrote: »

Well when you queue for pug games things like this are bound to happen from time to time and the only solution is to run pledges with friends, which I know is not always possible. I do feel the pain tho as I play as healer for pledges...

Trust me, I am one of the most forgiving peeople you will meet. Even with the group I described I never said one mean thing to them. I didn't even assume to give them advise, which is the problem many here are missing. Most of these type of players don't WANT help. They take help, even kind, non-sarcastic or snarky help, as an insult to their skills and either curse you or send you hate or just drop group.

How are we supposed to help that sort of player?

One of these guys was literally not even using any abilities. Just light attack. ONLY light attack. The other guy was literally doing nothing but spamming Acid Spray. The ONLY thing I said in that run was "please try to stay grouped for heals" because they also had a habbit of standing in ALL red circles for their full duration.

Tell me that was being selfish? I don't think so!

The part where you become selfish, is where you suggest other people need more training to get to your standards

Phinix1

jircris11 wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Surely it is role, and duty, of "experienced" players to pass that along.
Rather than getting all "i don't have time for this" preachy.

No. Helping others is great, but that is the job of FRIENDS and GUILDS, not people in the random queue.

At the point you make the choice to join a group of other players, it is YOUR responsibility to take the time to seek out friends and guildies to help you learn. You don't join a raid group and say "ok guys, now it's YOUR job to teach me how to play my class."

Some, no, MOST of that responsibility for learning how to play falls on the player, not everyone else in the world.

Actually helping others whom are less experienced is the job of those who have the knowledge to share. This is the issue with the mmo community it's become self absorbed and unhelpful.

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

The part where you become selfish, is where you suggest other people need more training to get to your standards

I would love to continue treading perspectives with you but I think we may have strayed a bit from the topic here.

Let us just agree to disagree. You think it is selfish for other players not to take time DURING dungeons or raids to OFFER help to others that neither ASK nor take the time to learn the game themselves, and I think it is selfish for someone that can't be bothered to put out the minimal effort to learn their OWN character to put the burden on everyone around them without actually ASKING.

I have no problem helping people that ASK for help. But OFFERING unsolicited help is taken by most people as an INSULT to their intelligence or skill, and you really aught to take the time to prepare for group play before you queue for group play.

And we aren't talking about min-maxing elitism. That is just something others keep trying to project into my mouth. What I described was people only light attacking not even using any skills. That is not a style issue and has nothing to do with elitism. ZOS gave you skills. USE THEM!

That is all I have to say on this matter.

Jitterbug

I support the idea but not because of elitism. I like the idea of more built in "checks" in the game. A sort of "am I ready?"-test.

Daemons_Bane

Phinix1 wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Surely it is role, and duty, of "experienced" players to pass that along.
Rather than getting all "i don't have time for this" preachy.

No. Helping others is great, but that is the job of FRIENDS and GUILDS, not people in the random queue.

At the point you make the choice to join a group of other players, it is YOUR responsibility to take the time to seek out friends and guildies to help you learn. You don't join a raid group and say "ok guys, now it's YOUR job to teach me how to play my class."

Some, no, MOST of that responsibility for learning how to play falls on the player, not everyone else in the world.

Actually helping others whom are less experienced is the job of those who have the knowledge to share. This is the issue with the mmo community it's become self absorbed and unhelpful.

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

The part where you become selfish, is where you suggest other people need more training to get to your standards

You think it is selfish for other players not to take time DURING dungeons or raids to OFFER help to others that neither ASK nor take the time to learn the game themselves

Not at all.. I call you selfish for suggesting that people need to go through a check phase before being allowed into dungeons, because you got a pug that you thought was not good enough.. Was that clear enough?

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Phinix1 wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

I am not sure how you think it is the responsibility of other paying customers to teach you how to play your own character.

I'm not sure how you think it is someone else's job to prepare themselves for YOUR speed-run.

All The Best

Now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. No one said anything about speed runs. That is something you introduced to try and make your argument sound more legitimate.

What I said was that if people are going to join other people to accomplish a goal, they should take the time to PREPARE themselves. Light attacking only or spamming one ability is NOT about a speed run, it is about basic respect for other people's time.

Ah, Ah.

You said, and I quote:

None of these people would have ever been able to queue for a dungeon and waste other people's time

So the speed of the run is clearly an important factor for you.

Hence my assumption.

All The Best

Phinix1

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Not at all.. I call you selfish for suggesting that people need to go through a check phase before being allowed into dungeons, because you got a pug that you thought was not good enough.. Was that clear enough?

Let me ask you this then. Do you think it is acceptable for someone to queue for group content where others are depending on them, and then not use ANY abilities, just light attack?

Magdalina

Wait what? It is my DUTY to teach other people how to play? ...that's an absurd statement. If it's my duty to teach people I group up with how to play, then it should also be their duty to teach me how to play. Which doesn't make sense if we're talking about clueless people to begin with which means they failed their duty first of all There you go, a logical paradox for you.

That aside, no, it's not the duty of a random player to teach another random player how to play. It's a nice thing to do, absolutely, but DUTY? We/they don't get paid for it and we don't queue up as some magical "mentor"(which would actally be a nice option to have). If I pug, I fully understand I'm likely to end up with new and/or inexperienced people so I don't expect bis gear, high dps, buffs, mechanics knowledge or anything of the sort. However, I don't think it's too much to expect someone who queued as a tank to hold agro, dps to do damage and healer do heals. If I queue up as a dps, it is my duty to dps, not to explain their roles to tank and healer, then tankheal it while dpsing anyway because they ignore me.

It is a nice thing to help new/inexperienced players in group content(or out of it really). But it's no one's duty.

Also, at this point I'm going to say yes. We need some sort of barrier BEFORE group content that'd let people know they're underperforming and need to work on their builds.

Alchemical

I find it interesting you keep arguing about the morality of elitism and ignored the simple fact that the idea was tested and proven to not work at all. It did not work in WoW, where roles and classes are far more tightly controlled and there is no player choice concerning ability or builds. It could not work in ESO. Not in the slightest.