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Sorc doesn't need nerfs it just Pirate S

Lord_MK
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I've been seeing these threads everyday lol. Sorc isn't honestly that op it's just the pirate set that's making it aids. Please say nerf pirate skeleton lol. Btw I'm not even a magic sorc so I'm not trying to protect my class.
  • Caza99
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    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    imo Pirate Skeleton doesn't need to be nerfed directly, rather the Major/Minor Protection buff. Protection should not reduce damage done to shields, not when they already can't be crit. This way the set is still useful to other classes that may use it, as none of them (except maybe a magblade) rely on damage shields as much as a magicka sorcerer.
    PC NA - @Merœr , MagSorc Main
  • Iyas
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    Pirate Skeleton is too strong. Especially if you can cure the debuff on a templar with purge....So get major protection without a drawback.
    Noricum/ Kitesquad/ PC/EU

    Kitesquad Vol. 1

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=6tGxK9KRrEI
  • Sharee
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    Iyas wrote: »
    Pirate Skeleton is too strong. Especially if you can cure the debuff on a templar with purge....So get major protection without a drawback.

    Debuff should be unpurgable, yes.
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    imo Pirate Skeleton doesn't need to be nerfed directly, rather the Major/Minor Protection buff. Protection should not reduce damage done to shields, not when they already can't be crit. This way the set is still useful to other classes that may use it, as none of them (except maybe a magblade) rely on damage shields as much as a magicka sorcerer.

    I would prefer it the other way around. Rather than the buff not protecting shields, the debuff should be made to affect them. That way PS is still useful to shielding chars (their shields are 15% weaker, but get a 30% protection bonus). If the protection did not apply to shields, the set would be pretty much useless to shielding specs.

    Making defile affect shields also solves the other problem in the game (if you can debuff heals to deal with heal-spam, why not debuff shields to deal with shield-spam?)
    Edited by Sharee on April 14, 2017 7:23AM
  • Caza99
    Caza99
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Iyas wrote: »
    Pirate Skeleton is too strong. Especially if you can cure the debuff on a templar with purge....So get major protection without a drawback.

    Debuff should be unpurgable, yes.
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    imo Pirate Skeleton doesn't need to be nerfed directly, rather the Major/Minor Protection buff. Protection should not reduce damage done to shields, not when they already can't be crit. This way the set is still useful to other classes that may use it, as none of them (except maybe a magblade) rely on damage shields as much as a magicka sorcerer.

    I would prefer it the other way around. Rather than the buff not protecting shields, the debuff should be made to affect them. This also solves the other problem in the game (if you can debuff heals to deal with heal-spam, why not debuff shields to deal with shield-spam?)

    But that fix only deals with this one set in particular. In the future there will undoubtedly be more accessible ways to obtain the buff, making it an issue once again (e.g The Warden's ultimate ability that gives nearby allies Major Protection). The Protection buffs reducing damage to shields is the real issue with the set. Shields on their own are easy enough to deal with, but shields with a 30% incoming damage reduction on them are not.
    In regards to dealing with shield-spam, there are several ways to deal with shield spam already in the game. There is an entire CP star for increasing damage done to shields, there is the shield breaker set, and there's always cost poisons that will increase the cost of the already expensive shields by 60% which will destroy a sorcerer's magicka pool if they are not *very* careful.
    Edited by Caza99 on April 14, 2017 7:33AM
    PC NA - @Merœr , MagSorc Main
  • oibam
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    DURATION IS TOO LONG. That's the main problem with this set.

  • Caza99
    Caza99
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    oibam wrote: »
    DURATION IS TOO LONG. That's the main problem with this set.

    I think the duration is fine. Perhaps the cooldown should be extended by a few seconds? Maybe to 18 or 20 seconds? 12 seconds of Major Protection seems fine to me, given that their healing is also reduced by 15%.
    PC NA - @Merœr , MagSorc Main
  • Derra
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    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    Because major defile is not a widely accessable debuff. Especially magica users can´t reliably apply it if they´re not a templar - and templars being able to do so is a little far fetched already.

    Also - and that is probably the major point: There there is no major/minor mending and major/minor vitaliy equivalent in place to buff shields.
    So if we get ways to buff outgoing shields by 8/25% and incoming shields by 8/30% (aswell as an incoming shieldCP star as quick recovery also has no equivalent) - i guess that´s the point when we can talk about healdebuffs affecting shieldstrengh.

    Don´t get me wrong i´m all against stacking harness and hardened. But proposals like yours are plain bad.
    Shields already don´t scale with number of attackers and can only reliably protect against maybe two semi competent players attacking you (make it 3 or 4 with pirate).
    Having defile work on them or crits (as another popular example) would completely break them in most contexts - even 1v1 where they´re debateably op (not really as sorcs without pets aren´t exactly good in duels).
    It´s on the same level as proposing breath of life should only be able to heal the caster with the minor 2nd heal.
    Edited by Derra on April 14, 2017 7:49AM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Derra wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    Because major defile is not a widely accessable debuff. Especially magica users can´t reliably apply it if they´re not a templar - and templars being able to do so is a little far fetched already.

    If major defile not being widely accessable would be a problem, it would already be a problem today, since it counters heals. Adding shields to the list wouldn't make it any worse.

    And in case of pirate skeleton, it is the monster set that provides the debuff, so no issues there.
    Derra wrote: »
    Also - and that is probably the major point: There there is no major/minor mending and major/minor vitaliy equivalent in place to buff shields.
    So if we get ways to buff outgoing shields by 8/25% and incoming shields by 8/30% (aswell as an incoming shieldCP star as quick recovery also has no equivalent) - i guess that´s the point when we can talk about healdebuffs affecting shieldstrengh.

    If defile was changed to affect shields, i don't see why major/minor mending couldn't be changed the same way. However, it would probably require re-evaluation of shield strengths (because shields can be stacked prior to entering a fight - heals can't)
    Derra wrote: »
    Don´t get me wrong i´m all against stacking harness and hardened. But proposals like yours are plain bad.
    Shields already don´t scale with number of attackers and can only reliably protect against maybe two semi competent players attacking you (make it 3 or 4 with pirate).

    Heals don't either. The only defense that scales this way is roll dodge.
    Edited by Sharee on April 14, 2017 8:28AM
  • Sharee
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    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Iyas wrote: »
    Pirate Skeleton is too strong. Especially if you can cure the debuff on a templar with purge....So get major protection without a drawback.

    Debuff should be unpurgable, yes.
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    imo Pirate Skeleton doesn't need to be nerfed directly, rather the Major/Minor Protection buff. Protection should not reduce damage done to shields, not when they already can't be crit. This way the set is still useful to other classes that may use it, as none of them (except maybe a magblade) rely on damage shields as much as a magicka sorcerer.

    I would prefer it the other way around. Rather than the buff not protecting shields, the debuff should be made to affect them. This also solves the other problem in the game (if you can debuff heals to deal with heal-spam, why not debuff shields to deal with shield-spam?)

    But that fix only deals with this one set in particular. In the future there will undoubtedly be more accessible ways to obtain the buff, making it an issue once again (e.g The Warden's ultimate ability that gives nearby allies Major Protection).

    I don't really have a problem with ultimates giving this sort of protection. AFAIK, there's no other source of major protection besides ultimates (at least as far as player abilities are concerned - not taking set procs into account obv.).
  • Caza99
    Caza99
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Iyas wrote: »
    Pirate Skeleton is too strong. Especially if you can cure the debuff on a templar with purge....So get major protection without a drawback.

    Debuff should be unpurgable, yes.
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    imo Pirate Skeleton doesn't need to be nerfed directly, rather the Major/Minor Protection buff. Protection should not reduce damage done to shields, not when they already can't be crit. This way the set is still useful to other classes that may use it, as none of them (except maybe a magblade) rely on damage shields as much as a magicka sorcerer.

    I would prefer it the other way around. Rather than the buff not protecting shields, the debuff should be made to affect them. That way PS is still useful to shielding chars (their shields are 15% weaker, but get a 30% protection bonus). If the protection did not apply to shields, the set would be pretty much useless to shielding specs.

    Making defile affect shields also solves the other problem in the game (if you can debuff heals to deal with heal-spam, why not debuff shields to deal with shield-spam?)

    Why does it matter if Skeleton is then useless to shield specs? That is the point of having hundreds of different gear combinations and options. Infernal Guardian is useless to non-shield specs, Skoria useless to a build with no dots....I could go on. It's not like shield specs are lacking options for sets, shields are already powerful without Pirate Skeleton. Skeleton will still be useful to other specs, like it is currently.
    PC NA - @Merœr , MagSorc Main
  • Caza99
    Caza99
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Iyas wrote: »
    Pirate Skeleton is too strong. Especially if you can cure the debuff on a templar with purge....So get major protection without a drawback.

    Debuff should be unpurgable, yes.
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    imo Pirate Skeleton doesn't need to be nerfed directly, rather the Major/Minor Protection buff. Protection should not reduce damage done to shields, not when they already can't be crit. This way the set is still useful to other classes that may use it, as none of them (except maybe a magblade) rely on damage shields as much as a magicka sorcerer.

    I would prefer it the other way around. Rather than the buff not protecting shields, the debuff should be made to affect them. This also solves the other problem in the game (if you can debuff heals to deal with heal-spam, why not debuff shields to deal with shield-spam?)

    But that fix only deals with this one set in particular. In the future there will undoubtedly be more accessible ways to obtain the buff, making it an issue once again (e.g The Warden's ultimate ability that gives nearby allies Major Protection).

    I don't really have a problem with ultimates giving this sort of protection. AFAIK, there's no other source of major protection besides ultimates (at least as far as player abilities are concerned - not taking set procs into account obv.).

    I used the Warden ultimate as an example. My point is there will almost certainly be other ways to obtain the buff without the defile attached to it in the future, which will then create the same problem again.
    PC NA - @Merœr , MagSorc Main
  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Iyas wrote: »
    Pirate Skeleton is too strong. Especially if you can cure the debuff on a templar with purge....So get major protection without a drawback.

    Debuff should be unpurgable, yes.
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    imo Pirate Skeleton doesn't need to be nerfed directly, rather the Major/Minor Protection buff. Protection should not reduce damage done to shields, not when they already can't be crit. This way the set is still useful to other classes that may use it, as none of them (except maybe a magblade) rely on damage shields as much as a magicka sorcerer.

    I would prefer it the other way around. Rather than the buff not protecting shields, the debuff should be made to affect them. That way PS is still useful to shielding chars (their shields are 15% weaker, but get a 30% protection bonus). If the protection did not apply to shields, the set would be pretty much useless to shielding specs.

    Making defile affect shields also solves the other problem in the game (if you can debuff heals to deal with heal-spam, why not debuff shields to deal with shield-spam?)

    Why does it matter if Skeleton is then useless to shield specs? That is the point of having hundreds of different gear combinations and options. Infernal Guardian is useless to non-shield specs, Skoria useless to a build with no dots....I could go on. It's not like shield specs are lacking options for sets, shields are already powerful without Pirate Skeleton. Skeleton will still be useful to other specs, like it is currently.

    It matters because if you have two ways to change a set, one that makes it useless to certain build, and another that doesn't, the latter is preferable.

    Or in other words, don't you think it would be better if infernal guardian wasn't useless to non-shield specs, if there was a way to make it so?
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Iyas wrote: »
    Pirate Skeleton is too strong. Especially if you can cure the debuff on a templar with purge....So get major protection without a drawback.

    Debuff should be unpurgable, yes.
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    imo Pirate Skeleton doesn't need to be nerfed directly, rather the Major/Minor Protection buff. Protection should not reduce damage done to shields, not when they already can't be crit. This way the set is still useful to other classes that may use it, as none of them (except maybe a magblade) rely on damage shields as much as a magicka sorcerer.

    I would prefer it the other way around. Rather than the buff not protecting shields, the debuff should be made to affect them. This also solves the other problem in the game (if you can debuff heals to deal with heal-spam, why not debuff shields to deal with shield-spam?)

    But that fix only deals with this one set in particular. In the future there will undoubtedly be more accessible ways to obtain the buff, making it an issue once again (e.g The Warden's ultimate ability that gives nearby allies Major Protection).

    I don't really have a problem with ultimates giving this sort of protection. AFAIK, there's no other source of major protection besides ultimates (at least as far as player abilities are concerned - not taking set procs into account obv.).

    I used the Warden ultimate as an example. My point is there will almost certainly be other ways to obtain the buff without the defile attached to it in the future, which will then create the same problem again.

    The game is thee years old and there hasn't been any such ways so far. Let's worry about that particular problem when/if it happens.
  • Caza99
    Caza99
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Iyas wrote: »
    Pirate Skeleton is too strong. Especially if you can cure the debuff on a templar with purge....So get major protection without a drawback.

    Debuff should be unpurgable, yes.
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    imo Pirate Skeleton doesn't need to be nerfed directly, rather the Major/Minor Protection buff. Protection should not reduce damage done to shields, not when they already can't be crit. This way the set is still useful to other classes that may use it, as none of them (except maybe a magblade) rely on damage shields as much as a magicka sorcerer.

    I would prefer it the other way around. Rather than the buff not protecting shields, the debuff should be made to affect them. That way PS is still useful to shielding chars (their shields are 15% weaker, but get a 30% protection bonus). If the protection did not apply to shields, the set would be pretty much useless to shielding specs.

    Making defile affect shields also solves the other problem in the game (if you can debuff heals to deal with heal-spam, why not debuff shields to deal with shield-spam?)

    Why does it matter if Skeleton is then useless to shield specs? That is the point of having hundreds of different gear combinations and options. Infernal Guardian is useless to non-shield specs, Skoria useless to a build with no dots....I could go on. It's not like shield specs are lacking options for sets, shields are already powerful without Pirate Skeleton. Skeleton will still be useful to other specs, like it is currently.

    It matters because if you have two ways to change a set, one that makes it useless to certain build, and another that doesn't, the latter is preferable.

    Or in other words, don't you think it would be better if infernal guardian wasn't useless to non-shield specs, if there was a way to make it so?
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Iyas wrote: »
    Pirate Skeleton is too strong. Especially if you can cure the debuff on a templar with purge....So get major protection without a drawback.

    Debuff should be unpurgable, yes.
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    imo Pirate Skeleton doesn't need to be nerfed directly, rather the Major/Minor Protection buff. Protection should not reduce damage done to shields, not when they already can't be crit. This way the set is still useful to other classes that may use it, as none of them (except maybe a magblade) rely on damage shields as much as a magicka sorcerer.

    I would prefer it the other way around. Rather than the buff not protecting shields, the debuff should be made to affect them. This also solves the other problem in the game (if you can debuff heals to deal with heal-spam, why not debuff shields to deal with shield-spam?)

    But that fix only deals with this one set in particular. In the future there will undoubtedly be more accessible ways to obtain the buff, making it an issue once again (e.g The Warden's ultimate ability that gives nearby allies Major Protection).

    I don't really have a problem with ultimates giving this sort of protection. AFAIK, there's no other source of major protection besides ultimates (at least as far as player abilities are concerned - not taking set procs into account obv.).

    I used the Warden ultimate as an example. My point is there will almost certainly be other ways to obtain the buff without the defile attached to it in the future, which will then create the same problem again.

    The game is thee years old and there hasn't been any such ways so far. Let's worry about that particular problem when/if it happens.

    But your way *does* make it almost useless to a certain build - a light armour magicka templar using harness magicka. A skeleton proc will do more harm than good to them, reducing both their healing and the only thing preventing them from being one shot.
    An no, I don't think Infernal Guardian should be useful to a non-shielding spec. There's a reason sets work for only specific playstyles and builds. Balance. Can you imagine a sorcerer with 20k damage shields using something like Selenes or Valkyn Skoria with efficiency? No, not all sets should be viable on all specs.

    Your point about worrying about the problem if/when it happens is reasonable. However Pirate Skeleton was released, what, 2 patches ago? Now Warden is being released in the next patch with another source of Major Protection. Templars and Nightblades (who also have access to Major Protection through Veil of Blades) have access to Minor Protection currently, and anyone using a restoration staff also has access to Major Protection through the extremely cheap ultimate. So in the game currently there are 3 ways to get Major Protection, 1 of which is specific to Nightblades. Next patch we are getting at least one more source of the buff with Warden, plus all the new sets and gear coming with Morrowind which could potentially bring another way to get it. Why wait until it's a problem when we can fix it right now?
    Edited by Caza99 on April 14, 2017 8:47AM
    PC NA - @Merœr , MagSorc Main
  • Sharee
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    Caza99 wrote: »

    But your way *does* make it almost useless to a certain build - a light armour magicka templar using harness magicka. A skeleton proc will do more harm than good to them, reducing both their healing and the only thing preventing them from being one shot.

    I would think having incoming damage reduced by 30% goes a long way towards preventing one-shots.
    And especially on a magicka templar, whose BOL is such an overkill that even a minor defile wouldn't prevent it from healing him to full in 1 cast, maybe in two.
  • Caza99
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »

    But your way *does* make it almost useless to a certain build - a light armour magicka templar using harness magicka. A skeleton proc will do more harm than good to them, reducing both their healing and the only thing preventing them from being one shot.

    I would think having incoming damage reduced by 30% goes a long way towards preventing one-shots.
    And especially on a magicka templar, whose BOL is such an overkill that even a minor defile wouldn't prevent it from healing him to full in 1 cast, maybe in two.

    So you think a 30% reduced incoming damage makes up for 15% reduced healing and 15% reduced shield, which is already weak due to the fact templars can't stack magicka as high as a nightblade and sorcerer. You're looking at a 6k harness with a skeleton proc up on a templar. Thats two surprise attacks and the shield is gone. Your shield is gone and all you can do is spam BoL and hope the NB gets bored before he instakills you with an incap > surprise attack. Thats if you dont run out of magicka first. Anyway this is getting off-topic, essentially there is no fix that will make everyone happy.
    Edited by Caza99 on April 14, 2017 9:04AM
    PC NA - @Merœr , MagSorc Main
  • Sharee
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    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »

    But your way *does* make it almost useless to a certain build - a light armour magicka templar using harness magicka. A skeleton proc will do more harm than good to them, reducing both their healing and the only thing preventing them from being one shot.

    I would think having incoming damage reduced by 30% goes a long way towards preventing one-shots.
    And especially on a magicka templar, whose BOL is such an overkill that even a minor defile wouldn't prevent it from healing him to full in 1 cast, maybe in two.

    So you think a 30% reduced incoming damage makes up for 15% reduced healing and 15% reduced shield, which is already weak due to the fact templars can't stack magicka as high as a nightblade and sorcerer. You're looking at a 6k harness with a skeleton proc up on a templar. Thats two surprise attacks and the shield is gone. Your shield is gone and all you can do is spam BoL and hope the NB gets bored before he instakills you with an incap > surprise attack.

    Take your example. 6K harness, without the skele proc, absorbs 6K damage before failing.

    With the skele proc, it will be turned into a 5100 shield, but the incoming 6K damage will be turned into 4200 damage. Net result, without skele you are shieldless, with skele you are left with a 900 point shield.

    With the heal its the same. Lets say you take 20K damage and then cast a 10K BOL, leaving you with 10K missing health.
    With skele, you will take 14000 damage, then cast a 8500 BOL, leaving you with 5500 missing health.
    Edited by Sharee on April 14, 2017 9:10AM
  • Caza99
    Caza99
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »

    But your way *does* make it almost useless to a certain build - a light armour magicka templar using harness magicka. A skeleton proc will do more harm than good to them, reducing both their healing and the only thing preventing them from being one shot.

    I would think having incoming damage reduced by 30% goes a long way towards preventing one-shots.
    And especially on a magicka templar, whose BOL is such an overkill that even a minor defile wouldn't prevent it from healing him to full in 1 cast, maybe in two.

    So you think a 30% reduced incoming damage makes up for 15% reduced healing and 15% reduced shield, which is already weak due to the fact templars can't stack magicka as high as a nightblade and sorcerer. You're looking at a 6k harness with a skeleton proc up on a templar. Thats two surprise attacks and the shield is gone. Your shield is gone and all you can do is spam BoL and hope the NB gets bored before he instakills you with an incap > surprise attack.

    Take your example. 6K harness, without the skele proc, absorbs 6K damage before failing.

    With the skele proc, it will be turned into a 5100 shield, but the incoming 6K damage will be turned into 4200 damage. Net result, without skele you are shieldless, with skele you are left with a 900 point shield.

    With the heal its the same. Lets say you take 20K damage and then cast a 10K BOL, leaving you with 10K missing health.
    With skele, you will take 14000 damage, then cast a 8500 BOL, leaving you with 5500 missing health.

    Anyone that knows how to light attack or bash weave will still destroy whats left of the shield. So why even use the set at this point?
    Sharee wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    Because major defile is not a widely accessable debuff. Especially magica users can´t reliably apply it if they´re not a templar - and templars being able to do so is a little far fetched already.

    If major defile not being widely accessable would be a problem, it would already be a problem today, since it counters heals. Adding shields to the list wouldn't make it any worse.

    And in case of pirate skeleton, it is the monster set that provides the debuff, so no issues there.
    Derra wrote: »
    Also - and that is probably the major point: There there is no major/minor mending and major/minor vitaliy equivalent in place to buff shields.
    So if we get ways to buff outgoing shields by 8/25% and incoming shields by 8/30% (aswell as an incoming shieldCP star as quick recovery also has no equivalent) - i guess that´s the point when we can talk about healdebuffs affecting shieldstrengh.

    If defile was changed to affect shields, i don't see why major/minor mending couldn't be changed the same way. However, it would probably require re-evaluation of shield strengths (because shields can be stacked prior to entering a fight - heals can't)
    Derra wrote: »
    Don´t get me wrong i´m all against stacking harness and hardened. But proposals like yours are plain bad.
    Shields already don´t scale with number of attackers and can only reliably protect against maybe two semi competent players attacking you (make it 3 or 4 with pirate).

    Heals don't either. The only defense that scales this way is roll dodge.

    Umm ok so if this is the case then Vitality would also function the same way. So a 20k shield stack sorcerer gets a pirate skeleton proc and his damage shields are reduced by 15%. So he pops a Vitality pot and now his shields are stronger than before the pirate proc, and have a 30% reduced inc dmg attached to it. Sick.
    Edited by Caza99 on April 14, 2017 9:21AM
    PC NA - @Merœr , MagSorc Main
  • DannyLV702
    DannyLV702
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    Just reduce the damage you deal 30% while in skelly form as well and all is good.
  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »

    But your way *does* make it almost useless to a certain build - a light armour magicka templar using harness magicka. A skeleton proc will do more harm than good to them, reducing both their healing and the only thing preventing them from being one shot.

    I would think having incoming damage reduced by 30% goes a long way towards preventing one-shots.
    And especially on a magicka templar, whose BOL is such an overkill that even a minor defile wouldn't prevent it from healing him to full in 1 cast, maybe in two.

    So you think a 30% reduced incoming damage makes up for 15% reduced healing and 15% reduced shield, which is already weak due to the fact templars can't stack magicka as high as a nightblade and sorcerer. You're looking at a 6k harness with a skeleton proc up on a templar. Thats two surprise attacks and the shield is gone. Your shield is gone and all you can do is spam BoL and hope the NB gets bored before he instakills you with an incap > surprise attack.

    Take your example. 6K harness, without the skele proc, absorbs 6K damage before failing.

    With the skele proc, it will be turned into a 5100 shield, but the incoming 6K damage will be turned into 4200 damage. Net result, without skele you are shieldless, with skele you are left with a 900 point shield.

    With the heal its the same. Lets say you take 20K damage and then cast a 10K BOL, leaving you with 10K missing health.
    With skele, you will take 14000 damage, then cast a 8500 BOL, leaving you with 5500 missing health.

    Anyone that knows how to light attack or bash weave will still destroy whats left of the shield. So why even use the set at this point?

    It does not matter what your opponent does to you, bash, light attacks, whatever, you are always better of with the skeleton proc up than without it.

    Its simple math - you incoming damage is reduced by 30%, your incoming healing is reduced by 15%, leaving you with a net 15% profit.

    The only case where you possibly could regret having the skeleton buff up is when you are trying to heal yourself and you are not taking any damage for 12 seconds. But if you are not taking damage for 12 seconds, the defile debuff is completely irrelevant.
    Edited by Sharee on April 14, 2017 9:32AM
  • Caza99
    Caza99
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    DannyLV702 wrote: »
    Just reduce the damage you deal 30% while in skelly form as well and all is good.

    I think that would just kill the set tbh. No one's going to use a set that reduces their healing by 15% and their damage by 30% all to gain 30% less damage taken themselves unless they're like a permablock tank that relies on reducing as much damage as they can rather than healing.
    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »

    But your way *does* make it almost useless to a certain build - a light armour magicka templar using harness magicka. A skeleton proc will do more harm than good to them, reducing both their healing and the only thing preventing them from being one shot.

    I would think having incoming damage reduced by 30% goes a long way towards preventing one-shots.
    And especially on a magicka templar, whose BOL is such an overkill that even a minor defile wouldn't prevent it from healing him to full in 1 cast, maybe in two.

    So you think a 30% reduced incoming damage makes up for 15% reduced healing and 15% reduced shield, which is already weak due to the fact templars can't stack magicka as high as a nightblade and sorcerer. You're looking at a 6k harness with a skeleton proc up on a templar. Thats two surprise attacks and the shield is gone. Your shield is gone and all you can do is spam BoL and hope the NB gets bored before he instakills you with an incap > surprise attack.

    Take your example. 6K harness, without the skele proc, absorbs 6K damage before failing.

    With the skele proc, it will be turned into a 5100 shield, but the incoming 6K damage will be turned into 4200 damage. Net result, without skele you are shieldless, with skele you are left with a 900 point shield.

    With the heal its the same. Lets say you take 20K damage and then cast a 10K BOL, leaving you with 10K missing health.
    With skele, you will take 14000 damage, then cast a 8500 BOL, leaving you with 5500 missing health.

    Anyone that knows how to light attack or bash weave will still destroy whats left of the shield. So why even use the set at this point?

    It does not matter what your opponent does to you, bash, light attacks, whatever, you are always better of with the skeleton proc up than without it.

    Its simple math - you incoming damage is reduced by 30%, your incoming healing is reduced by 15%, leaving you with a net 15% profit.

    The only case where you possibly could regret having the skeleton buff up is when you are trying to heal yourself and you are not taking any damage for 12 seconds. But if you are not taking damage for 12 seconds, the defile debuff is completely irrelevant.

    I'm really getting tired of this argument, it is not going anywhere because we are both obviously too stubborn to give up :p So I'm just going to leave it there.
    Edited by Caza99 on April 14, 2017 9:34AM
    PC NA - @Merœr , MagSorc Main
  • DannyLV702
    DannyLV702
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    Caza99 wrote: »
    DannyLV702 wrote: »
    Just reduce the damage you deal 30% while in skelly form as well and all is good.

    I think that would just kill the set tbh. No one's going to use a set that reduces their healing by 15% and their damage by 30% all to gain 30% less damage taken themselves unless they're like a permablock tank that relies on reducing as much damage as they can rather than healing.
    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Caza99 wrote: »

    But your way *does* make it almost useless to a certain build - a light armour magicka templar using harness magicka. A skeleton proc will do more harm than good to them, reducing both their healing and the only thing preventing them from being one shot.

    I would think having incoming damage reduced by 30% goes a long way towards preventing one-shots.
    And especially on a magicka templar, whose BOL is such an overkill that even a minor defile wouldn't prevent it from healing him to full in 1 cast, maybe in two.

    So you think a 30% reduced incoming damage makes up for 15% reduced healing and 15% reduced shield, which is already weak due to the fact templars can't stack magicka as high as a nightblade and sorcerer. You're looking at a 6k harness with a skeleton proc up on a templar. Thats two surprise attacks and the shield is gone. Your shield is gone and all you can do is spam BoL and hope the NB gets bored before he instakills you with an incap > surprise attack.

    Take your example. 6K harness, without the skele proc, absorbs 6K damage before failing.

    With the skele proc, it will be turned into a 5100 shield, but the incoming 6K damage will be turned into 4200 damage. Net result, without skele you are shieldless, with skele you are left with a 900 point shield.

    With the heal its the same. Lets say you take 20K damage and then cast a 10K BOL, leaving you with 10K missing health.
    With skele, you will take 14000 damage, then cast a 8500 BOL, leaving you with 5500 missing health.

    Anyone that knows how to light attack or bash weave will still destroy whats left of the shield. So why even use the set at this point?

    It does not matter what your opponent does to you, bash, light attacks, whatever, you are always better of with the skeleton proc up than without it.

    Its simple math - you incoming damage is reduced by 30%, your incoming healing is reduced by 15%, leaving you with a net 15% profit.

    The only case where you possibly could regret having the skeleton buff up is when you are trying to heal yourself and you are not taking any damage for 12 seconds. But if you are not taking damage for 12 seconds, the defile debuff is completely irrelevant.

    I'm really getting tired of this argument, it is not going anywhere because we are both obviously too stubborn to give up :p So I'm just going to leave it there.

    An argonian DK PvP tank will (:
  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Caza99 wrote: »

    I'm really getting tired of this argument, it is not going anywhere because we are both obviously too stubborn to give up :p So I'm just going to leave it there.
    nevermind :)
    Edited by Sharee on April 14, 2017 9:39AM
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    Because major defile is not a widely accessable debuff. Especially magica users can´t reliably apply it if they´re not a templar - and templars being able to do so is a little far fetched already.

    If major defile not being widely accessable would be a problem, it would already be a problem today, since it counters heals. Adding shields to the list wouldn't make it any worse.

    And in case of pirate skeleton, it is the monster set that provides the debuff, so no issues there.
    Derra wrote: »
    Also - and that is probably the major point: There there is no major/minor mending and major/minor vitaliy equivalent in place to buff shields.
    So if we get ways to buff outgoing shields by 8/25% and incoming shields by 8/30% (aswell as an incoming shieldCP star as quick recovery also has no equivalent) - i guess that´s the point when we can talk about healdebuffs affecting shieldstrengh.

    If defile was changed to affect shields, i don't see why major/minor mending couldn't be changed the same way. However, it would probably require re-evaluation of shield strengths (because shields can be stacked prior to entering a fight - heals can't)
    Derra wrote: »
    Don´t get me wrong i´m all against stacking harness and hardened. But proposals like yours are plain bad.
    Shields already don´t scale with number of attackers and can only reliably protect against maybe two semi competent players attacking you (make it 3 or 4 with pirate).

    Heals don't either. The only defense that scales this way is roll dodge.

    But heals can be combined with other defenses - like block or mitigation via armor and impenetrable. Shields benefit from none of those.

    Major defile not being accessible IS a major problem when trying to combat selfhealing or healing builds. Also i don´t think one debuff that´s only reliably applied by stamina builds should counter every active magica based defense in the game (imo if this were to be the case there bastion should be scrapped and healing cps should affect shields flatout).

    The most irritating thing about your proposition is anyways - making shields weaker devalues an individual shield in the process making stacking them even more appealing. It also devalues shields when not used with highly stacked max magica builds.

    It directly leads to more shieldstacking, reduces build variety and does not address the core problem. I don´t think that´s desireable.
    Edited by Derra on April 14, 2017 10:55AM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Derra wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    Because major defile is not a widely accessable debuff. Especially magica users can´t reliably apply it if they´re not a templar - and templars being able to do so is a little far fetched already.

    If major defile not being widely accessable would be a problem, it would already be a problem today, since it counters heals. Adding shields to the list wouldn't make it any worse.

    And in case of pirate skeleton, it is the monster set that provides the debuff, so no issues there.
    Derra wrote: »
    Also - and that is probably the major point: There there is no major/minor mending and major/minor vitaliy equivalent in place to buff shields.
    So if we get ways to buff outgoing shields by 8/25% and incoming shields by 8/30% (aswell as an incoming shieldCP star as quick recovery also has no equivalent) - i guess that´s the point when we can talk about healdebuffs affecting shieldstrengh.

    If defile was changed to affect shields, i don't see why major/minor mending couldn't be changed the same way. However, it would probably require re-evaluation of shield strengths (because shields can be stacked prior to entering a fight - heals can't)
    Derra wrote: »
    Don´t get me wrong i´m all against stacking harness and hardened. But proposals like yours are plain bad.
    Shields already don´t scale with number of attackers and can only reliably protect against maybe two semi competent players attacking you (make it 3 or 4 with pirate).

    Heals don't either. The only defense that scales this way is roll dodge.

    But heals can be combined with other defenses - like block or mitigation via armor and impenetrable. Shields benefit from none of those.

    Shields may not benefit from armor mitigation, but that is not really a disadvantage: shields are really only a light armor thing, and adding light armor mitigation that will promptly be 100% penetrated in the current meta would have zero effect.

    On the other hand shields benefit from being uncrittable, which in turn allows their users to ignore impenetrable trait going for infused instead, which in turn makes the shields even stronger.

    Damaging hitpoints possibly puts target into execute range, while damaging shields won't.

    Etc. etc.

    We are currently at a point where against 1-2 attackers, shields make their user just as untouchable as heals do. Being able to debuff one but not the other seems wrong.
    Derra wrote: »
    Major defile not being accessible IS a major problem when trying to combat selfhealing or healing builds. Also i don´t think one debuff that´s only reliably applied by stamina builds should counter every active magica based defense in the game (imo if this were to be the case there bastion should be scrapped and healing cps should affect shields flatout).

    I have nothing against distributing the debuff more evenly. Also, being able to debuff block cost or dodge cost(or invulnerability window) could definitely be considered.
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    Because major defile is not a widely accessable debuff. Especially magica users can´t reliably apply it if they´re not a templar - and templars being able to do so is a little far fetched already.

    If major defile not being widely accessable would be a problem, it would already be a problem today, since it counters heals. Adding shields to the list wouldn't make it any worse.

    And in case of pirate skeleton, it is the monster set that provides the debuff, so no issues there.
    Derra wrote: »
    Also - and that is probably the major point: There there is no major/minor mending and major/minor vitaliy equivalent in place to buff shields.
    So if we get ways to buff outgoing shields by 8/25% and incoming shields by 8/30% (aswell as an incoming shieldCP star as quick recovery also has no equivalent) - i guess that´s the point when we can talk about healdebuffs affecting shieldstrengh.

    If defile was changed to affect shields, i don't see why major/minor mending couldn't be changed the same way. However, it would probably require re-evaluation of shield strengths (because shields can be stacked prior to entering a fight - heals can't)
    Derra wrote: »
    Don´t get me wrong i´m all against stacking harness and hardened. But proposals like yours are plain bad.
    Shields already don´t scale with number of attackers and can only reliably protect against maybe two semi competent players attacking you (make it 3 or 4 with pirate).

    Heals don't either. The only defense that scales this way is roll dodge.

    But heals can be combined with other defenses - like block or mitigation via armor and impenetrable. Shields benefit from none of those.

    Shields may not benefit from armor mitigation, but that is not really a disadvantage: shields are really only a light armor thing, and adding light armor mitigation that will promptly be 100% penetrated in the current meta would have zero effect.

    On the other hand shields benefit from being uncrittable, which in turn allows their users to ignore impenetrable trait going for infused instead, which in turn makes the shields even stronger.

    Damaging hitpoints possibly puts target into execute range, while damaging shields won't.

    Etc. etc.

    We are currently at a point where against 1-2 attackers, shields make their user just as untouchable as heals do. Being able to debuff one but not the other seems wrong.
    Derra wrote: »
    Major defile not being accessible IS a major problem when trying to combat selfhealing or healing builds. Also i don´t think one debuff that´s only reliably applied by stamina builds should counter every active magica based defense in the game (imo if this were to be the case there bastion should be scrapped and healing cps should affect shields flatout).

    I have nothing against distributing the debuff more evenly. Also, being able to debuff block cost or dodge cost(or invulnerability window) could definitely be considered.

    Casting heals puts the user out of execute range. Casting shields does not. That argument works both ways.

    Blocking also makes you uncritable(like shields do) while you still benefit from mitigation while also making you immune to most CC (which shields don´t achieve).

    My light armor build as 15k physical and 21k spellresist on the offensive bar 27k spellresist and 20k physical resist on the defensive bar. With bloodspawn i go up to 33 and 26k. I do not think that is instantly pierced.

    Your statement here also kinda tells me that you most likely only play against shields and don´t use them (the other alternative being you´re one of the players abusing them).
    Try playing a sorc without pirate or using resto ulti with 37k maxmagica only using hardened ward and then come back telling me how healdebuffs should work on shields. You want to adress a problem on the extreme end of a spectrum (3 shields with pirate) with a flatout nerf to the base mechanic. This is never a good thing as it affects anyone not extremely invested even more than the abusive builds (ie: someone with a 10k shield would be left with 6.6k which is flatout unusable as it does not even absorb one attack - someone with a 15k shield would still be left with 10k which is a downgrade but still playable).

    You also don´t adress the points being made about build variety and the implications it would make on running more shields at all.
    Edited by Derra on April 14, 2017 12:02PM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Derra wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    Because major defile is not a widely accessable debuff. Especially magica users can´t reliably apply it if they´re not a templar - and templars being able to do so is a little far fetched already.

    If major defile not being widely accessable would be a problem, it would already be a problem today, since it counters heals. Adding shields to the list wouldn't make it any worse.

    And in case of pirate skeleton, it is the monster set that provides the debuff, so no issues there.
    Derra wrote: »
    Also - and that is probably the major point: There there is no major/minor mending and major/minor vitaliy equivalent in place to buff shields.
    So if we get ways to buff outgoing shields by 8/25% and incoming shields by 8/30% (aswell as an incoming shieldCP star as quick recovery also has no equivalent) - i guess that´s the point when we can talk about healdebuffs affecting shieldstrengh.

    If defile was changed to affect shields, i don't see why major/minor mending couldn't be changed the same way. However, it would probably require re-evaluation of shield strengths (because shields can be stacked prior to entering a fight - heals can't)
    Derra wrote: »
    Don´t get me wrong i´m all against stacking harness and hardened. But proposals like yours are plain bad.
    Shields already don´t scale with number of attackers and can only reliably protect against maybe two semi competent players attacking you (make it 3 or 4 with pirate).

    Heals don't either. The only defense that scales this way is roll dodge.

    But heals can be combined with other defenses - like block or mitigation via armor and impenetrable. Shields benefit from none of those.

    Shields may not benefit from armor mitigation, but that is not really a disadvantage: shields are really only a light armor thing, and adding light armor mitigation that will promptly be 100% penetrated in the current meta would have zero effect.

    On the other hand shields benefit from being uncrittable, which in turn allows their users to ignore impenetrable trait going for infused instead, which in turn makes the shields even stronger.

    Damaging hitpoints possibly puts target into execute range, while damaging shields won't.

    Etc. etc.

    We are currently at a point where against 1-2 attackers, shields make their user just as untouchable as heals do. Being able to debuff one but not the other seems wrong.
    Derra wrote: »
    Major defile not being accessible IS a major problem when trying to combat selfhealing or healing builds. Also i don´t think one debuff that´s only reliably applied by stamina builds should counter every active magica based defense in the game (imo if this were to be the case there bastion should be scrapped and healing cps should affect shields flatout).

    I have nothing against distributing the debuff more evenly. Also, being able to debuff block cost or dodge cost(or invulnerability window) could definitely be considered.

    Casting heals puts the user out of execute range. Casting shields does not. That argument works both ways.

    Not really. The fight starts at full HP. It is inevitable that you will take damage, but with shields, unless you make a mistake, the damage will never reach your hitpoints, so you never need to get out of execute range in the firstplace. Without shields, you have no such luxury.
    Derra wrote: »
    Blocking also makes you uncritable(like shields do) while you still benefit from mitigation while also making you immune to most CC (which shields don´t achieve).

    And you lose stamina that you will need to break free from CC, which you cannot afford to do. Blocking in PvP does not really work unless your whole build is centered around it, which shield builds aren't, obviously. Similarly to the armor mitigation, "shields dont benefit from blocking" is largely an imaginary downside, because allowing block to protect shields would do very little to improve your survivability(basically you would lose less shield when blocking incoming CC that you have to block, and that's it)
    Derra wrote: »
    My light armor build as 15k physical and 21k spellresist on the offensive bar 27k spellresist and 20k physical resist on the defensive bar. With bloodspawn i go up to 33 and 26k. I do not think that is instantly pierced.

    When im in WW form on my heavy tank DK setup my physical resist is over 34K, and i still feel like i'm wearing toilet paper when penetration stackers attack me. 20K is nothing, and bloodspawn can not be relied on. YMMW, of course.
    Derra wrote: »
    You also don´t adress the points being made about build variety and the implications it would make on running more shields at all.

    That goes too deep into the "opinion" territory for my liking.
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    You also don´t adress the points being made about build variety and the implications it would make on running more shields at all.

    That goes too deep into the "opinion" territory for my liking.

    Try playing a sorc without pirate or using resto ulti with 37k maxmagica only using hardened ward and then come back telling me how healdebuffs should work on shields. You want to adress a problem on the extreme end of a spectrum (3 shields with pirate) with a flatout nerf to the base mechanic. This is never a good thing as it affects anyone not extremely invested even more than the abusive builds (ie: someone with a 10k shield would be left with 6.6k which is flatout unusable as it does not even absorb one attack - someone with a 15k shield would still be left with 10k which is a downgrade but still playable).

    Please adress this - as this is directly linked to build variety.

    Also it´s pretty much personal opinion on your part that shieldusers will never see hp dmg.
    It´s not mathematically possible to not take HP dmg with correctly lined up burst.

    Edit: On the blocking part: You can block with magica nowadays - in case you missed the memo. But further reread what i wrote, because i don´t think you understood what i wanted to say.
    Edited by Derra on April 14, 2017 2:09PM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Derra wrote: »
    someone with a 10k shield would be left with 6.6k which is flatout unusable as it does not even absorb one attack - someone with a 15k shield would still be left with 10k which is a downgrade but still playable

    Kinda like someone with a 10K heal is left with a 6.6k heal after a debuff nowadays. It does not even heal the damage of one attack. Yet people are still using heals.
  • KingJ
    KingJ
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    Its not just the pirate buff they also need to revert the destro staff change as well. In fully heavy with 30k resistance buff I'm still getting hit with 8-9k curses,its just stupid.Curse been unblockable for a while now but before that changed on average I was getting 4-5k hits.A slight damage Nerf is needed for all classes.Also change endless fury hate that crap instant death
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