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Sorc doesn't need nerfs it just Pirate S

  • Derra
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    someone with a 10k shield would be left with 6.6k which is flatout unusable as it does not even absorb one attack - someone with a 15k shield would still be left with 10k which is a downgrade but still playable

    Kinda like someone with a 10K heal is left with a 6.6k heal after a debuff nowadays. It does not even heal the damage of one attack. Yet people are still using heals.

    Only that heals can crit, heals benefit from mitigation and block, Heals have two instead of one CP increasing their potency.
    Also shields come with the downside of still having to heal. You can´t play without heal. You need shields and healing.

    Totally comparable situation.

    As i said. Try it. Play it. Actually get an informed opinion. Don´t make up scenarios in your head about how things are working. Actually try in in practice.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Aedaryl
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    Derra wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    someone with a 10k shield would be left with 6.6k which is flatout unusable as it does not even absorb one attack - someone with a 15k shield would still be left with 10k which is a downgrade but still playable

    Kinda like someone with a 10K heal is left with a 6.6k heal after a debuff nowadays. It does not even heal the damage of one attack. Yet people are still using heals.

    Only that heals can crit, heals benefit from mitigation and block, Heals have two instead of one CP increasing their potency.
    Also shields come with the downside of still having to heal. You can´t play without heal. You need shields and healing.

    Totally comparable situation.

    As i said. Try it. Play it. Actually get an informed opinion. Don´t make up scenarios in your head about how things are working. Actually try in in practice.

    Derra know what he said

    I'm playing only with hardeded ward, and all my sorcerer mates don't even want to try to play with 1 shield, because it's hard.

    Nerf that single shield will make some build unplayable, and it will force people to stack shield.

    The only nerf/balance shield needs is how annulment (harness need a sustain nerf, cuz hello infinite sustain) and Hardened ward stack.

    Remove them to stack, cut the second shield by x%, ect.
  • Minalan
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    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    Sure, can defile debuff block too?

    No?

    The last thing Templars need is yet another super-buff.
    Edited by Minalan on April 14, 2017 2:44PM
  • Waffennacht
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    Finally I can go back to running Troll King without it being the number 1 OP monster set.

    Ill go awith which ever is complained about less lol
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
    1300+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er

    Waffennacht' Builds
  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Minalan wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    How about making defile debuff reduce the power of shields instead, the same way it debuffs heals. Problem solved, without nerfing pirate skeleton for other classes that might be using it.

    Sure, can defile debuff block too?

    No?

    Allow me to quote myself, from this very thread:
    Sharee wrote: »
    I have nothing against distributing the debuff more evenly. Also, being able to debuff block cost or dodge cost(or invulnerability window) could definitely be considered.


  • danno8
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Heals don't either. The only defense that scales this way is roll dodge.

    Actually blocking scales very well with more attackers as well, since it was revealed that blocking cost is charged at maximum once every .5 seconds no matter how many attacks you sustain.

    You know those guys who sustain 10 people hammering on them for 2 minutes? They would be dead in 20 seconds if the cost of block was actually charged 10 times per second instead of 2 per second.
  • D0ntevenL1ft
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    Cost increase each time its casted. Dodge roll is a stam defence but its a complete miss in damage and the increase is massive. I suggest a smaller increase so it can be recasted several times but not infinitely.
    Edited by D0ntevenL1ft on April 14, 2017 3:18PM
  • Sharee
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    danno8 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Heals don't either. The only defense that scales this way is roll dodge.

    Actually blocking scales very well with more attackers as well, since it was revealed that blocking cost is charged at maximum once every .5 seconds no matter how many attacks you sustain.

    You know those guys who sustain 10 people hammering on them for 2 minutes? They would be dead in 20 seconds if the cost of block was actually charged 10 times per second instead of 2 per second.

    Thats true, but it requires a very specialized build to benefit. Roll dodge on the other hand scales with the number of attackers as a baseline. Baseline blocking (without a very fringe spec) does not really scale, because by the time you are blocking more than 2 attacks per second, you are only delaying the inevitable death.
  • Malamar1229
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    wait till wardens start using this set
  • rfennell_ESO
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    I don't think pirate skeleton needs nerfing.

    However, damage mitigation buffs should not apply to shields.
  • danno8
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    Sharee wrote: »
    danno8 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Heals don't either. The only defense that scales this way is roll dodge.

    Actually blocking scales very well with more attackers as well, since it was revealed that blocking cost is charged at maximum once every .5 seconds no matter how many attacks you sustain.

    You know those guys who sustain 10 people hammering on them for 2 minutes? They would be dead in 20 seconds if the cost of block was actually charged 10 times per second instead of 2 per second.

    Thats true, but it requires a very specialized build to benefit. Roll dodge on the other hand scales with the number of attackers as a baseline. Baseline blocking (without a very fringe spec) does not really scale, because by the time you are blocking more than 2 attacks per second, you are only delaying the inevitable death.

    That's not true. As soon as you have more than 2 attackers hitting you, you are probably getting hit more than twice per second and benefiting from the block charge cap.

    You can have more than 2 attackers hitting you in nearly all scenarios, including any Xv1, or zerg vs zerg, or small scale. And the only time it wont really help you is if you are blocking without a S+B, or Frost staff (especially if you are magicka based) since your stamina will be gone in 4 hits.

    Also, base dodge roll costs nearly 2X the amount of stamina that block does. So if in 1 second you block 10 hits, it will cost 4320 stamina (base 2160*2), and if you roll dodge it will cost 4040 stamina (base). Although I think roll dodging may last a bit longer, at least it feels that way.

    I agree that dodge roll has perfect scaling, and you take no health damage at all which makes it better, but blocking scaling will save your life all the time with even just minimal investment.
    Edited by danno8 on April 14, 2017 3:54PM
  • Gilvoth
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    Lord_MK wrote: »
    I've been seeing these threads everyday lol. Sorc isn't honestly that op it's just the pirate set that's making it aids. Please say nerf pirate skeleton lol. Btw I'm not even a magic sorc so I'm not trying to protect my class.

    that is false.
    the sorcerer class is more powerfull and survives more damage than other classes by design build right out of the prison start of game. has nothing to do with your build nor your armor or weapons.
    it has been that way since beta 2013.
    rest assured, that i did read your response to my feedback comment(s), i always do. and unless i respond back to your comment directly, then i will always stand by my original feedback statement.
  • Gilvoth
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    Barbardin wrote: »
    But really, when you have a class, which can easily tank 10 players, kill them all an then escape very easy, you know there is something wrong with this game...

    this ^
    well said, that is exactly the problem.
    rest assured, that i did read your response to my feedback comment(s), i always do. and unless i respond back to your comment directly, then i will always stand by my original feedback statement.
  • Aedaryl
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    Barbardin wrote: »
    But really, when you have a class, which can easily tank 10 players, kill them all an then escape very easy, you know there is something wrong with this game...

    this ^
    well said, that is exactly the problem.

    The problem is you man, you just have no idea how sorc work, and telling sorc kill 10 decentplayer alone or saying sorc is the best tank in the game is a proof of your lack of.... everything.
  • Sharee
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    danno8 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    danno8 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Heals don't either. The only defense that scales this way is roll dodge.

    Actually blocking scales very well with more attackers as well, since it was revealed that blocking cost is charged at maximum once every .5 seconds no matter how many attacks you sustain.

    You know those guys who sustain 10 people hammering on them for 2 minutes? They would be dead in 20 seconds if the cost of block was actually charged 10 times per second instead of 2 per second.

    Thats true, but it requires a very specialized build to benefit. Roll dodge on the other hand scales with the number of attackers as a baseline. Baseline blocking (without a very fringe spec) does not really scale, because by the time you are blocking more than 2 attacks per second, you are only delaying the inevitable death.

    That's not true. As soon as you have more than 2 attackers hitting you, you are probably getting hit more than twice per second and benefiting from the block charge cap.

    You can have more than 2 attackers hitting you in nearly all scenarios, including any Xv1, or zerg vs zerg, or small scale. And the only time it wont really help you is if you are blocking without a S+B, or Frost staff (especially if you are magicka based) since your stamina will be gone in 4 hits.

    Let me try again, since im not sure you understood what i mean.

    Yes, you benefit from block charge cap as soon as you have more than 2 attackers hitting you. But *if* you have 2+ attackers on you, and do not have a build specialized for blocking, you can not afford being charged block cost twice a second. Not even with a S+B.

    To take advantage of the blocking cap, you need to be able to sustain block cost twice a second. If you can't, the "scales with number of attackers" part of blocking won't help you at all.
  • Lord_MK
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    To all the people who are complaining about sorc you should see the difference when they don't have PS. I
    I don't think pirate skeleton needs nerfing.

    However, damage mitigation buffs should not apply to shields.

    You know what I agree with that
  • Ghettokid
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    Havent been using pirate skeleton myself, but I wanna ask one thing. If it procs while in WW form, will you become wolf-shaped skeleton?
  • danno8
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    Sharee wrote: »
    danno8 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    danno8 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Heals don't either. The only defense that scales this way is roll dodge.

    Actually blocking scales very well with more attackers as well, since it was revealed that blocking cost is charged at maximum once every .5 seconds no matter how many attacks you sustain.

    You know those guys who sustain 10 people hammering on them for 2 minutes? They would be dead in 20 seconds if the cost of block was actually charged 10 times per second instead of 2 per second.

    Thats true, but it requires a very specialized build to benefit. Roll dodge on the other hand scales with the number of attackers as a baseline. Baseline blocking (without a very fringe spec) does not really scale, because by the time you are blocking more than 2 attacks per second, you are only delaying the inevitable death.

    That's not true. As soon as you have more than 2 attackers hitting you, you are probably getting hit more than twice per second and benefiting from the block charge cap.

    You can have more than 2 attackers hitting you in nearly all scenarios, including any Xv1, or zerg vs zerg, or small scale. And the only time it wont really help you is if you are blocking without a S+B, or Frost staff (especially if you are magicka based) since your stamina will be gone in 4 hits.

    Let me try again, since im not sure you understood what i mean.

    Yes, you benefit from block charge cap as soon as you have more than 2 attackers hitting you. But *if* you have 2+ attackers on you, and do not have a build specialized for blocking, you can not afford being charged block cost twice a second. Not even with a S+B.

    To take advantage of the blocking cap, you need to be able to sustain block cost twice a second. If you can't, the "scales with number of attackers" part of blocking won't help you at all.

    I understand and disagree. I only need to sustain it long enough to LoS, or get help from a teammate. I don't need to sustain it forever.

    I am talking about different kinds of battles than you, not just 10v1 open field. Maybe my example I gave made it seem that was my sole focus.
  • Waffennacht
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    ..........
    Ghettokid wrote: »
    Havent been using pirate skeleton myself, but I wanna ask one thing. If it procs while in WW form, will you become wolf-shaped skeleton?

    I've been afraid to try, turning WW crashes my game about 50% of the time as is.
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
    1300+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er

    Waffennacht' Builds
  • Sharee
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    danno8 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    danno8 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    danno8 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Heals don't either. The only defense that scales this way is roll dodge.

    Actually blocking scales very well with more attackers as well, since it was revealed that blocking cost is charged at maximum once every .5 seconds no matter how many attacks you sustain.

    You know those guys who sustain 10 people hammering on them for 2 minutes? They would be dead in 20 seconds if the cost of block was actually charged 10 times per second instead of 2 per second.

    Thats true, but it requires a very specialized build to benefit. Roll dodge on the other hand scales with the number of attackers as a baseline. Baseline blocking (without a very fringe spec) does not really scale, because by the time you are blocking more than 2 attacks per second, you are only delaying the inevitable death.

    That's not true. As soon as you have more than 2 attackers hitting you, you are probably getting hit more than twice per second and benefiting from the block charge cap.

    You can have more than 2 attackers hitting you in nearly all scenarios, including any Xv1, or zerg vs zerg, or small scale. And the only time it wont really help you is if you are blocking without a S+B, or Frost staff (especially if you are magicka based) since your stamina will be gone in 4 hits.

    Let me try again, since im not sure you understood what i mean.

    Yes, you benefit from block charge cap as soon as you have more than 2 attackers hitting you. But *if* you have 2+ attackers on you, and do not have a build specialized for blocking, you can not afford being charged block cost twice a second. Not even with a S+B.

    To take advantage of the blocking cap, you need to be able to sustain block cost twice a second. If you can't, the "scales with number of attackers" part of blocking won't help you at all.

    I understand and disagree. I only need to sustain it long enough to LoS, or get help from a teammate. I don't need to sustain it forever.

    I am talking about different kinds of battles than you, not just 10v1 open field. Maybe my example I gave made it seem that was my sole focus.

    I see. When you talk about only blocking for a very short amount of time, then that's a different matter.
  • Sharee
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    Ghettokid wrote: »
    Havent been using pirate skeleton myself, but I wanna ask one thing. If it procs while in WW form, will you become wolf-shaped skeleton?

    Nope, you keep the werewolf form. The buff works, tho. Once i was fighting a sorc 1v1 and had to go afk for a phone. When i came back i was still at half life - he rooted me, and had to work through stacked reactive and skeleton damage reductions >.<

    :)
  • Gilvoth
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    sorcerer class being attacked on forums with claims they need to be nerfed. lashes out and returns fire by launching attack on nightblade armor sets.
    classic move. quite boring and lame.
    rest assured, that i did read your response to my feedback comment(s), i always do. and unless i respond back to your comment directly, then i will always stand by my original feedback statement.
  • Waffennacht
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    sorcerer class being attacked on forums with claims they need to be nerfed. lashes out and returns fire by launching attack on nightblade armor sets.

    Sounds like a Newspaper Headline

    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
    1300+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er

    Waffennacht' Builds
  • rfennell_ESO
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    Lord_MK wrote: »
    To all the people who are complaining about sorc you should see the difference when they don't have PS. I
    I don't think pirate skeleton needs nerfing.

    However, damage mitigation buffs should not apply to shields.

    You know what I agree with that

    It's really a simple thing. When you combine pirate skeleton and undeath and whatever flat dmg decrease can be applied to the sorcerer, you get people angry at how shields work. I don't think it was though out too well by ZOS.


    When you take a good sorcerer wearing pirate skeleton, having undeath passive (vamp) and the huge list in this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-and-list-of-options-updated-for-homestead/p1

    It's all in the way that ZOS handles incoming damage and reduction of it. Why reduction applies before a damage shield is silly. It ultimately makes shields appear to powerful for some, and the end game on it will be nerf shields for everyone. Same thing applies to dks and igneous shield with damage mitigation. It's also why certain builds have healing ward shields that are ridiculous to even try to get through...

    edit: just clearing up stuff I wasn't 100% on.
    Edited by rfennell_ESO on April 14, 2017 6:21PM
  • brandishsteel
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    sorc needs a nerf, not the skeleton mask
    Marco Hacker - the best mageblade in the game
  • danno8
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    Ghettokid wrote: »
    Havent been using pirate skeleton myself, but I wanna ask one thing. If it procs while in WW form, will you become wolf-shaped skeleton?

    That would be awesome though.
  • Minalan
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    A dozen nerf sorc threads polluted by misinformed opinions from the same three or four potatoes.

    Keep them coming!
    Edited by Minalan on April 15, 2017 1:31AM
  • Juhasow
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    Well I can agree with OP that sorc dont need nerfs because class itself isnt a problem it's just combinations on many non class related things makes this build too strong. I would start of lowering bastion shields strenght down to ~15-20% , and adding pirate skeleton additional debuff that lowers shields strenght by 15%. Also infernal guardian , amberplasm and lich could get some rework. Curse dmg could be split by half and it would explode instant when applied with 1st half and at the end with 2nd half.
  • Biro123
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    Well I can agree with OP that sorc dont need nerfs because class itself isnt a problem it's just combinations on many non class related things makes this build too strong. I would start of lowering bastion shields strenght down to ~15-20% , and adding pirate skeleton additional debuff that lowers shields strenght by 15%. Also infernal guardian , amberplasm and lich could get some rework. Curse dmg could be split by half and it would explode instant when applied with 1st half and at the end with 2nd half.

    Wow, start by saying sorc doesn't need a nerf, than advocate a 20% nerf in shields, AND nerving the main sorc sustain sets AND halving the only reliable class DMG ability (which can already only be used every 3 seconds).
    I'd hate to see what you'd do to a class that you thought did need nerfing!
    Minalan owes me a beer.

    PC EU Megaserver
    Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
    Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
    Aidee - Magsorc - DC
    Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
    Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.
  • thankyourat
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    Biro123 wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Well I can agree with OP that sorc dont need nerfs because class itself isnt a problem it's just combinations on many non class related things makes this build too strong. I would start of lowering bastion shields strenght down to ~15-20% , and adding pirate skeleton additional debuff that lowers shields strenght by 15%. Also infernal guardian , amberplasm and lich could get some rework. Curse dmg could be split by half and it would explode instant when applied with 1st half and at the end with 2nd half.

    Wow, start by saying sorc doesn't need a nerf, than advocate a 20% nerf in shields, AND nerving the main sorc sustain sets AND halving the only reliable class DMG ability (which can already only be used every 3 seconds).
    I'd hate to see what you'd do to a class that you thought did need nerfing!

    But those aren't nerfs to the sorc class. Except curse. But it is hitting a little too hard I'm getting hit with 8k curses. it's hitting like a ultimate but it's not impossible to deal with. Those sustain sets 100% need a Nerf though. They are what's making sorc op. Nothing in the sorc class stands out as op but with lich and pirate it completely puts sorc over the top. It's pretty easy to see that certain sorc builds are over performing. As long as sets allow sorcs to keep shields up 100% it will be op. The weakness of the sorc is it has poor sustain and is squishy. lich and ps completely cover up those weaknesses
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