Why doesn't the Cliff Racer's stam morph have an additional effect?

datgladiatah

I'm trying to understand the logic here. What would make this ability worth using over flurry or even snipe? It doesn't seem like much damage to begin with and it hits slower than jabs or surprise attack. It should really be given something and I really wouldn't want you guys to release it without adding something to it.

I'm not sure what would be a balanced proposal. The impression was they wanted it to be used by close ranged stam wardens too. So maybe something like doing more damage when they're snared, or setting a target off balance. Anyone have any ideas what they would want to see?

Alpheu5

Let's wait and see if anything even needs to be changed other than getting a stam morph, hmm?

Surge is basically the same thing in reverse, but utility instead of damage. There's the base skill that buffs just weapon damage, and then a morph that then buffs spell power with no additional benefits.

Alcast

THAT is a very good question. @Wrobel

I guess if you want to be stamina you have to suffer in some way.

xblackroxe

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Let's wait and see if anything even needs to be changed other than getting a stam morph, hmm?

Surge is basically the same thing in reverse, but utility instead of damage. There's the base skill that buffs just weapon damage, and then a morph that then buffs spell power with no additional benefits.

well it just adds spell power it still does give weapon power. But that is a bad example anyways since theres no stam morph.

datgladiatah

Well assuming the magicka scaling is equivalent to the stamina changes, which they usually should be, there's an obvious advantage for a mage warden to use that morph compared to a stam warden using the stam version. The magicka one simply does more damage than the stamina one. If somehow it evened out when the cliff racer's maximum effect is applied, would that even make sense? Like I'm pretty sure jab damage is 100% even but the stamina morph adds a chance at higher damage, while the magicka morph allows a dps to sustain through a fight.

Even if the damages were equivalent, jabs added different mechanics based on the morphs. Why wouldn't they add a different mechanic for the stamina one? It's boring and it doesn't make sense

Strider_Roshin

What about the stam version of Betty? Magicka gets a free cleanse, stam doesn't get squat.

datgladiatah

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

What about the stam version of Betty? Magicka gets a free cleanse, stam doesn't get squat.

That's true too. It could at the very least last longer. Making something a stamina morph isn't an advantage so much as a lesser option in these cases...

I guess their logic is, since stamina doesn't have these options to begin with, it's just good to have extras? For buffs that can make sense. For a main damage spammable it doesn't.

Alpheu5

xblackroxe wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Let's wait and see if anything even needs to be changed other than getting a stam morph, hmm?

Surge is basically the same thing in reverse, but utility instead of damage. There's the base skill that buffs just weapon damage, and then a morph that then buffs spell power with no additional benefits.

well it just adds spell power it still does give weapon power. But that is a bad example anyways since theres no stam morph.

The point was that it benefits one initially, and then just changes the benefit around to the other. A mag sorc has nearly no use for a weapon power buff. A stam sorc won't take that morph because they don't get a benefit from the spell power bonus. Likewise, a stam warden probably won't have any use for a spammable magicka dps ability, so they'll take the stamina morph. It's a perfectly acceptable example.

Strider_Roshin

Why does the bear do magic damage by default? It bites, claws, and slams your opponent. It should be physical by default.

datgladiatah

Alpheu5 wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Let's wait and see if anything even needs to be changed other than getting a stam morph, hmm?

Surge is basically the same thing in reverse, but utility instead of damage. There's the base skill that buffs just weapon damage, and then a morph that then buffs spell power with no additional benefits.

well it just adds spell power it still does give weapon power. But that is a bad example anyways since theres no stam morph.

The point was that it benefits one initially, and then just changes the benefit around to the other. A mag sorc has nearly no use for a weapon power buff. A stam sorc won't take that morph because they don't get a benefit from the spell power bonus. Likewise, a stam warden probably won't have any use for a spammable magicka dps ability, so they'll take the stamina morph. It's a perfectly acceptable example.

Actually crit surge can be very viable on a magsorc if you're running potions. The extra healing that has a chance to crit is very viable, it's an extra 500-1k heal a second. That's assuming you're having issues surviving mechanics and conjured ward isnt' good enough for you.

Back when crit surge was based on damage done, from what I understand no one used power surge because the healing was that good in pvp.

Alpheu5

datgladiatah wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Let's wait and see if anything even needs to be changed other than getting a stam morph, hmm?

Surge is basically the same thing in reverse, but utility instead of damage. There's the base skill that buffs just weapon damage, and then a morph that then buffs spell power with no additional benefits.

well it just adds spell power it still does give weapon power. But that is a bad example anyways since theres no stam morph.

The point was that it benefits one initially, and then just changes the benefit around to the other. A mag sorc has nearly no use for a weapon power buff. A stam sorc won't take that morph because they don't get a benefit from the spell power bonus. Likewise, a stam warden probably won't have any use for a spammable magicka dps ability, so they'll take the stamina morph. It's a perfectly acceptable example.

Actually crit surge can be very viable on a magsorc if you're running potions. The extra healing that has a chance to crit is very viable, it's an extra 500-1k heal a second. That's assuming you're having issues surviving mechanics and conjured ward isnt' good enough for you.

Back when crit surge was based on damage done, from what I understand no one used power surge because the healing was that good in pvp.

I never said Crit Surge wouldn't be viable. The Major Brutality of it is basically unused on mag sorcs. Of course if I were in the position to use spell power potions frequently, or was always grouped with a Dragonknight that gave me a Molten Weapons buff, or I used Rattlecage 5 piece as one of my setups, I would use Crit Surge for the bigger heals. But, as it's the method I choose to get Major Sorcery, I go with that morph.

For an even more one-to-one comparison, I'll use Dark Exchange. For all intents and purposes, it's a stamina ability. One morph does the exact same thing, just swapping stamina and magicka. The other morph, the one that still costs stam, gains the additional effect.

datgladiatah

But like i said, with buffs it's acceptable because you're giving someone access to a feature that a character or class likely doesn't have. Dark Deal is incredibly useful as it's the best way to sustain stamina as a stamsorc. It's not as a good as Dark Exchange comparing numbers, but there's no other ability that can do what it does.

In comparison. Dive is a spammable damage ability. The Warden can choosing Force Pulse, but the magicka option has its benefits. But what does the stamina morph do that snipe, flurry, wrecking blow etc. doesn't? To me, even if it were stronger than any of those (most certainly not flurry though), then it STILL wouldn't be as strong as an ability like jabs. I don't run a stam nb so idk if people use flurry over surprise attack. But still, surprise attack gives major fracture, AND it can stun when you're stealthed. Throwing a cliff racer and doing damage is nice for sentimentality, but it's most certainly not interesting. Dark Deal is very interesting and satisfying for what it does because it doesn't do damage. Crit surge is very interesting because it's probably the best DPS heal option in the game. But mechanically, doing damage at range doesn't differ much from snipe. It should certainly do more than what it does.

Lynx7386

The physical morph for the bear also has no other benefits.

datgladiatah

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The physical morph for the bear also has no other benefits.

Before it was changed, it was supposed to be a morph that did more damage. Idk if they changed that but they likely did... poor stam

Anti_Virus

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

What about the stam version of Betty? Magicka gets a free cleanse, stam doesn't get squat.

Bear dealing magic damage....

Browiseth

something about cliff racers meme because i played morrowind and cliff racers being an annoying thing is something all us morrowind fans can laugh about as we sigh and wish we were young again so that the games we played then can be good and relevant again

sorry just beating someone to the punch

Stamden

Yeah this is what I've been asking for a while now. No response yet.

Also, why does Swarm not have a stamina morph? If ANY Warden skill needs a stam morph it is that one.

Alpheu5

datgladiatah wrote: »

But like i said, with buffs it's acceptable because you're giving someone access to a feature that a character or class likely doesn't have. Dark Deal is incredibly useful as it's the best way to sustain stamina as a stamsorc. It's not as a good as Dark Exchange comparing numbers, but there's no other ability that can do what it does.

In comparison. Dive is a spammable damage ability. The Warden can choosing Force Pulse, but the magicka option has its benefits. But what does the stamina morph do that snipe, flurry, wrecking blow etc. doesn't? To me, even if it were stronger than any of those (most certainly not flurry though), then it STILL wouldn't be as strong as an ability like jabs. I don't run a stam nb so idk if people use flurry over surprise attack. But still, surprise attack gives major fracture, AND it can stun when you're stealthed. Throwing a cliff racer and doing damage is nice for sentimentality, but it's most certainly not interesting. Dark Deal is very interesting and satisfying for what it does because it doesn't do damage. Crit surge is very interesting because it's probably the best DPS heal option in the game. But mechanically, doing damage at range doesn't differ much from snipe. It should certainly do more than what it does.

You cannot dodge or reflect the Cliff Racer, only block it. Snipe can be both dodged and reflected, flurry can be dodged, wrecking blow has a telegraph that can be dodged and the CC from dizzying swing blocked. So the skill has its own aspects going for it that those other ones can't provide: a guaranteed strike.

Also, let my try to rephrase what I said before because sometimes I'm not eloquent when explaining things.

Dark Exchange: Costs Stamina -- Restores Health, Restores Magicka

••Dark Deal: Costs Magicka -- Restores Health, Restores Stamina

••Dark Conversion: Costs Stamina -- Restores Health, Restores Magicka, ++ Cheaper Cost

=========================

Dive: Costs Magicka -- Deals Magic damage

••Cutting Dive: Costs Stamina -- Deals Physical damage

••Screaming Cliff Racer: Costs Magicka -- Deals Magic damage, ++ more damage with range.

timidobserver

I think costing stamina and doing physical damage is being considered the additional effect since that is different from the base skill. With dark exchange, the base skill is stamina based, so the stamina morph needs to do something else.

Dredlord

The extra effect IS that it goes off stam and wep dam.

datgladiatah

timidobserver wrote: »

I think costing stamina and doing physical damage is being considered the additional effect since that is different from the base skill. With dark exchange, the base skill is stamina based, so the stamina morph needs to do something else.

That's not what jabs or surprise attack does when morphed. Why would this be any different? DK morphs too. And Hurricane becomes much stronger than lightning form. All damage dealing stam morphs have an interesting mechanical change from their magicka counter part. At the very least there should be insight as to why they don't see a need for that here.

GilGalad

Alcast wrote: »

THAT is a very good question. @Wrobel

I guess if you want to be stamina you have to suffer in some way.

Why didn't you ask that question, when you were there at ZOS testing the Warden?

Stamden

GilGalad wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

THAT is a very good question. @Wrobel

I guess if you want to be stamina you have to suffer in some way.

Why didn't you ask that question, when you were there at ZOS testing the Warden?

Alcast said he told them these concerned (no stamina Dive effect, no Swarm stam morph, etc). It's up to ZoS if they listen or not.

timidobserver

datgladiatah wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I think costing stamina and doing physical damage is being considered the additional effect since that is different from the base skill. With dark exchange, the base skill is stamina based, so the stamina morph needs to do something else.

That's not what jabs or surprise attack does when morphed. Why would this be any different? DK morphs too. And Hurricane becomes much stronger than lightning form. All damage dealing stam morphs have an interesting mechanical change from their magicka counter part. At the very least there should be insight as to why they don't see a need for that here.

Yup but it is how dark exchange works, which is what I was responding to.

I suspect that they think it is strong enough or it is something they'll add during one of the pts patches.

Alcast

GilGalad wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

THAT is a very good question. @Wrobel

I guess if you want to be stamina you have to suffer in some way.

Why didn't you ask that question, when you were there at ZOS testing the Warden?

Feedback is Feedback

Edit:















well that didnt go as well as i had planned it

GilGalad

Alcast wrote: »

GilGalad wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

THAT is a very good question. @Wrobel

I guess if you want to be stamina you have to suffer in some way.

Why didn't you ask that question, when you were there at ZOS testing the Warden?

Feedback is Feedback

Early feedback is way more valuable, since they have more time to think about changes, test and implement them.

There are many ways to improve this skill without making it too strong, like adding a short (2-4 sec) 30-40% snare to the stamina version.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

GilGalad wrote: »

Early feedback is way more valuable, since they have more time to think about changes, test and implement them.

This assumes they actually listen to the feedback. Also assumes the purpose of any of these events or the PTS has anything to do with collection user input instead of just calibrated marketing and market research.

xblackroxe

GilGalad wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

GilGalad wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

THAT is a very good question. @Wrobel

I guess if you want to be stamina you have to suffer in some way.

Why didn't you ask that question, when you were there at ZOS testing the Warden?

Feedback is Feedback

Early feedback is way more valuable, since they have more time to think about changes, test and implement them.

There are many ways to improve this skill without making it too strong, like adding a short (2-4 sec) 30-40% snare to the stamina version.

NO.

Stop it with those snares guys honestly.

masterbroodub17_ESO

The stamina morphs for Warden in general are crap. ZoS sure does love its magicka meta.

SodanTok

Seriously tho. That ranged bonus damage on magicka morph IS EVEN F** BETTER THAN THE WHOLE RANGED PASSIVE ON BOW.

If we consider damage % passive of both weapons (flame staff vs bow) from max range it is (15% + 8%) vs 12%.

Magicka > stam at range even if both morphs were same, so this is just huge middle finger.

masterbroodub17_ESO

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Seriously tho. That ranged bonus damage on magicka morph IS EVEN F** BETTER THAN THE WHOLE RANGED PASSIVE ON BOW.

If we consider damage % passive of both weapons (flame staff vs bow) from max range it is (15% + 8%) vs 12%.

Magicka > stam at range even if both morphs were same, so this is just huge middle finger.

This isn't even a matter of a slight edge for min/max, they literally anally *** stam every chance they get.