Can we remove damage/healing scaling from resources already, ZOS?
Update 46 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676209
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Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
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Imo all it means is that most dungeons need a buff and heavier emphasis on mechanics as opposed to dps. I assure you no squishy magsorc is going to tank vet CoS/RoM(let alone hm) while doing massive dps and without switching gear from pure dps one. And no, Twilight heals won't (always) cut it either.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
It's a bit dull (from my perspective) when, for example, a magsorc with all attribute points into magicka can perform every single role in a dungeon without switching gear or CP. Why use a tank build when I can slot the Twilight Matriarch (burst healing), shield stack to my heart's content (tanking), and drop insane DPS AOE numbers (damage) all at the same time?
In PVP, some of the hardest hitting damage builds can also drop high self healing numbers. Why build anything other than a high-level DPS build when you can still self-heal effectively? There's too little trade off.
Imagine if the max attribute scaling was removed. Then, you'd have to choose between dividing your damage and healing. Want to hit really hard? Okay, but you're giving up your ability to heal yourself well enough. Want to heal really well? Okay, but you're giving up damage. Want to do both at an average rate? Okay, split between them or do anything in-between.
Wait, I'm confused. How does removing max resource scaling do anything to separate dps from heals? Heals scale with spelldamage too so everyone will just stack spelldamage sky-high and do even moar dps AND heals.
It'd also be a really interesting change in regards to shields because those scale with max magicka only. If they would also scale with spelldamage...ohhh boy...
On side note, here's a very interesting looking hybrid build:
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/
While it still doesn't look like it'd be #1 on the leaderboards, it looks more than decent for your average veteran dungeons.
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GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Imo all it means is that most dungeons need a buff and heavier emphasis on mechanics as opposed to dps. I assure you no squishy magsorc is going to tank vet CoS/RoM(let alone hm) while doing massive dps and without switching gear from pure dps one. And no, Twilight heals won't (always) cut it either.
Wait, I'm confused. How does removing max resource scaling do anything to separate dps from heals? Heals scale with spelldamage too so everyone will just stack spelldamage sky-high and do even moar dps AND heals.
It'd also be a really interesting change in regards to shields because those scale with max magicka only. If they would also scale with spelldamage...ohhh boy...
On side note, here's a very interesting looking hybrid build:
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/
While it still doesn't look like it'd be #1 on the leaderboards, it looks more than decent for your average veteran dungeons.
In a revamped system it would be ideal to split up damage and healing:
- damage scales off weapon/spell damage
- healing scales off healing done0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@GrumpyDuckling
I agree, problem is the heavy hitting dd has also hughe heals at the moment. Different skills' strength should scale of different values. Like you said, damage off dmg value (obvious). And shields could still scale off max magicka only as it is now.
@Urza1234 Shields don't scale of spell damage. Don't know where you get that from.
@CosmicSoul
Sure I can share that build. It's a slightly altered version of what Magdalina posted earlier. I haven't got my hands on the right vma weapons yet so I use 5 pelinal's on body, agility rings and main hand weapons and leki's as second dw weapon and gold necklace (bc you won't find gold agility jewels). Also I prefer skoria over stormfist and dunmer over nord.0 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have wanted this for so long.
IMO it should be
Damage bonus/weapons = your damage.
Attributes = resources.
CP doesn't grant additional attributes (double dip bonus for every CP spent).
None of this "combine everything into damage".
However that would require substantial rebalance of the game and I don't think ZOS want that.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I have wanted this for so long.
IMO it should be
Damage bonus/weapons = your damage.
Attributes = resources.
CP doesn't grant additional attributes (double dip bonus for every CP spent).
None of this "combine everything into damage".
However that would require substantial rebalance of the game and I don't think ZOS want that.
I haven't checked that out yet. As is it right now, how do CP influence your attributes exactly? Will points spen in one of the three blue constellations grant you more max magicka or do only points in the apprentice raise your magicka etc? If it's the first, it wouldn't matter for hybrids or skill damage at all because everyone will at some time spend the max amount into each colour so it's an even field.0 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
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As far as I know each CP spent also gives you a tiny bonus to the attribute field it was spent in.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
I haven't checked that out yet. As is it right now, how do CP influence your attributes exactly? Will points spen in one of the three blue constellations grant you more max magicka or do only points in the apprentice raise your magicka etc? If it's the first, it wouldn't matter for hybrids or skill damage at all because everyone will at some time spend the max amount into each colour so it's an even field.
Warrior points = more health.
Mage points = more magicka.
Thief points = more stamina.
So when you're spending your points in the "more elemental/magic damage" tree as a magicka class, you're also getting more base magicka and even more damage.
I don't even know the the game clearly states this happens anywhere, but it's systems like this of just increasing everything with everything which has the game out of control.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭So it doesn't matter if I put points into Elemental Expert, Thaumaturge or Mighty, each will increase max magicka?0 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »So it doesn't matter if I put points into Elemental Expert, Thaumaturge or Mighty, each will increase max magicka?
Any point spent in blue constellation will increase your max magicka. But keep in mind the increase is something like 0.01% so 1, 10 or even 100 cp aren't going to make a huge difference.1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »This max magicka/stamina scaling system is dull and hurts build variety. With the current system, to get the most out of our damage and healing builds the game strongly encourages us to dump most of, if not all of our resources into one attribute.
How about revamping the damage and healing system to make resources (health, magicka, stamina) simply... ya know, resources?
Weapon and spell damage exists. Healing done exists. Put more emphasis on those and allow resources to determine how often stamina and magicka skills can be used. Why should our damage and healing be so significantly punished for splitting up our attributes? The punishment should simply be less resources for casting abilities.
This is a potentially bad idea and I don't think people who intuitively think it will solve issues have thought this through. It will make "unkillable" builds even more of a plague and - importantly - more lethal.
As a Nord, who has less magicka as it is, devotes nothing to magicka (i.e. mage's guild stuff), and invests a bit into stamina, I can assure you my build would be just as tanky and do relatively a lot more damage since I'm not being punished for a relatively small magicka pool. I only run about 31K magicka and am very conscious that my damage suffers for it. If you make it so that small pool no longer punishes me, my damage would be pretty close to DPS builds (I have good spellpower from the Rattlecage set) which would be a terrible balance move because I run one of those templar tank builds that are the subject of a lot of frustration.Edited by Joy_Division on March 27, 2017 12:20PM1 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
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It does build up over time though, and it's something which wasn't needed but they felt like going ahead with any way.
Any point spent in blue constellation will increase your max magicka. But keep in mind the increase is something like 0.01% so 1, 10 or even 100 cp aren't going to make a huge difference.
It's at the point now I believe where some CP600 builds can in theory work without health food as they still reach the "sweet spot" of health.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150741/stat-increases-from-spending-cp-points-and-diminishing-returns
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2773429/#Comment_2773429@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."1 -
Dark_Aether✭✭✭✭The day resource scaling is removed, everyone and their mothers will be wearing Pelinal's Aptitude. I'm afraid they will min/max one damage source and automatically scale the other, things might get worse.1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Okay, good to know how cp increase resources.Dark_Aether wrote: »The day resource scaling is removed, everyone and their mothers will be wearing Pelinal's Aptitude. I'm afraid they will min/max one damage source and automatically scale the other, things might get worse.
@Dark_Aether
Why should they? If you can go
A ) Hundings (300 w.dmg) + Briarheart (450 w.dmg) = 750 weapon damage
or
B ) Hundings (300 w.dmg) + Pelinal (in this case 300 s.dmg) = 300 weapon damage
Most people would still go either one or the other, not just because they are used to it, but because it allows higher stacking. And, as you see right now, there is no need to go hybrid. Sure, some skills are tempting but e.g. you won't see a stam sorc with a 30k hardened ward because it doesn't scale of dmg stats anyway. And only going hybrid for a magicka heal on a stam char is a bit futile bc there are already stam heals. Also heals wouldn't be as big on a hybrid bc of not being able to stack dmg in both as it is to stack in only one dmg stat.
Edit: even with softcaps on damage and resources there would still be a lack on crit chance on hybrids. I wrote a comment yesterday or so how that would play out. Anyway, there are not much benefits from going magicka+stamina, it's more of a "I want to" than an "I need to".Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on March 27, 2017 3:36PM0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Dark_Aether wrote: »The day resource scaling is removed, everyone and their mothers will be wearing Pelinal's Aptitude. I'm afraid they will min/max one damage source and automatically scale the other, things might get worse.
Pelinal's probably wouldn't be as strong as you think. It would be a nice set to use to hybridize your build, but I can't imagine it being best in slot, or anywhere near it.
It also would be nice to use any/all skills on a build without having to live in a stamina/magicka divide.0 -
mewcatus✭✭✭I prefer a different approach. Magicka and Stamina abilities no longer scale to anything, with Damage and Spell Damage only affects light/heavy damage. As it stands, there is way too much emphasis on Damage/Spell Damage. The influence on which optimal DPS becomes almost mandatory.
The nerf to regen is one step in the right direction, the next step is to nerf Damage/Spell damage even more.Edited by mewcatus on March 28, 2017 2:40AM0 -
Zarrakon✭✭✭Just to emphasize what someone else said: if this happened, I'd enchant everything with tri-stats or health glyphs (from all magicka glyphs). Having a large resource pool doesn't actually mean as much as you'd think in terms of sustain: a 50k magicka pool and a 30k magicka pool will both run out in under a minute and would be effectively equivalent after that happens.
So I'll just run with 40k health and wear spell damage sets to get the same DPS and comparable sustain to people who put points into magicka. Sounds good?1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Was this true then we had soft caps?
Don't remember except slotting typical silver shards to an mage build to spend stamina
but magic and stamina builds was an thing back then too, but more class based.
@zaria
It is true that hybrid builds have never been all that strong though, as you point out, we used stam dumps back then for various reasons, soft cap did not make it advantageous to fully stack anything pure and blocking/dodge roll was much less expensive than it is now.
Even then builds that really went for a hybrid were lower on dps. The foundation of the game hinders it and CP extended that further.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Just to emphasize what someone else said: if this happened, I'd enchant everything with tri-stats or health glyphs (from all magicka glyphs). Having a large resource pool doesn't actually mean as much as you'd think in terms of sustain: a 50k magicka pool and a 30k magicka pool will both run out in under a minute and would be effectively equivalent after that happens.
So I'll just run with 40k health and wear spell damage sets to get the same DPS and comparable sustain to people who put points into magicka. Sounds good?
40k health with spell damage sets (if healing and damage was removed from attribute scaling) would allow you to take some hits and deal out damage, but you'd also be lacking strong enough heals to sustain a fight - hence the idea of a trade off. If you were unable to burst down opponents quickly then you'd start to get into trouble.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
40k health with spell damage sets (if healing and damage was removed from attribute scaling) would allow you to take some hits and deal out damage, but you'd also be lacking strong enough heals to sustain a fight - hence the idea of a trade off. If you were unable to burst down opponents quickly then you'd start to get into trouble.
Zos is already looking at making it advantageous for us to add health to our characters. They have not said how.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »
Zos is already looking at making it advantageous for us to add health to our characters. They have not said how.
Yeah, if I'm not mistaken that was mentioned before update 12. I haven't heard any updates about it since.
While it will be nice to make health more worth using, unless the punishment for splitting stamina and magicka is removed, then I think we'll still be stuck with this max attribute system.0