Can we remove damage/healing scaling from resources already, ZOS?

GrumpyDuckling

This max magicka/stamina scaling system is dull and hurts build variety. With the current system, to get the most out of our damage and healing builds the game strongly encourages us to dump most of, if not all of our resources into one attribute.

How about revamping the damage and healing system to make resources (health, magicka, stamina) simply... ya know, resources?

Weapon and spell damage exists. Healing done exists. Put more emphasis on those and allow resources to determine how often stamina and magicka skills can be used. Why should our damage and healing be so significantly punished for splitting up our attributes? The punishment should simply be less resources for casting abilities.

wolfdoggie_ESO

Soon we'll have max HP scale damage too with Warden's Ice attack making it crap for Stamina/Magicka DPS. ;/ I don't like it.

Urza1234

wolfdoggie_ESO wrote: »

Soon we'll have max HP scale damage too with Warden's Ice attack making it crap for Stamina/Magicka DPS. ;/ I don't like it.

Yeah thats probably the most poorly thought out skill in Warden's most poorly thought out tree.

1T was good, Homestead doesnt float my boat but it is still a good addition. That was enough of an upward trend from ZOS that I reinstalled and resubbed. Warden though looks like such a disappointment that I'm reconsidering that decision. Each of Warden's trees are just so pigeon holed, their morphs are boring, the frost/nature thing just does not make sense. I try to avoid thinking about it because every time I do I just end up shutting down ESO, I lose all motivation.

DragonBound

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

This max magicka/stamina scaling system is dull and hurts build variety. With the current system, to get the most out of our damage and healing builds the game strongly encourages us to dump most of, if not all of our resources into one attribute.

How about revamping the damage and healing system to make resources (health, magicka, stamina) simply... ya know, resources?

Weapon and spell damage exists. Healing done exists. Put more emphasis on those and allow resources to determine how often stamina and magicka skills can be used. Why should our damage and healing be so significantly punished for splitting up our attributes? The punishment should simply be less resources for casting abilities.

One thing is for sure if they did remove stats scaling it might help bring hybrids back to an extent.

Urza1234

Honestly I think a large part of why you dont see hybrids is just the 'meta'. Each character out there has like 9k of base off resource and 0.5k regen that they dont fully utilize.

I think another big reason is that for fully geared players, between armor skills, food, jewelry, pots, and light attack weaving; managing their main resource isnt an issue, they dont feel like they need that extra 9k base of their off resource for anything but maybe dodging or some minor utility spells.
-This is I think a major reason that ZOS is nerfing the Champion Points associated with resource management, resource management is just brainless right now

A perhaps better reason is that most ultimates in the game scale off of your max resource, be that magicka or stamina. Not the total of those two resources no, the max of the two, so if you hybrid at all your ults will suffer for it.

There is also the fact that the armor skills that give weapon damage, spell crit, and spell pen are gated behind '5 or more' requirements, which weights a character in one direction or the other.

That being said, if you accept that your ults will be 80% as effective, hybridization can be pretty attractive, especially after they nerf regen. If you look at the spell coefficients most spells are buffered not only by your base Stam/Mag values, but also your base weapon/spell damage values. If you run the numbers with the link provided, even if you only have 2/3 of your max potential magicka or stamina, each spell will still do ~80% of the max potential damage. You also take much better advantage of tri/bi food and tri/bi pots. There are also many item sets that specifically support hybridization.
http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php

Whether or not the OP finds my musings about hybridization useful, that link I provided most certainly is, as it reveals that Magicka/Stamina scaling is not as impactful as many think. This is good because ZOS is unlikely to ever change the fact that spell efficacy scales of your magicka/stamina, people might have to regear their characters. People get suicidally upset at the notion that they might have to regear their characters, just look at the outcry over the incoming nerfs to the Warlord CP etc

Magdalina

People keep saying it'd "bring more versatility", but I don't see what that'd achieve beyond everyone dumping everything possible into spell/weapon damage. Now it's at least spell/weapon damage+max magicka/stamina. Is there something I'm missing?

Urza1234

Magdalina wrote: »

People keep saying it'd "bring more versatility", but I don't see what that'd achieve beyond everyone dumping everything possible into spell/weapon damage. Now it's at least spell/weapon damage+max magicka/stamina. Is there something I'm missing?

Some vague nonsense about quadratic returns when a single stat improves both the amount of a resource you have and the efficacy of what you spend that resource on.

The logic behind that argument if I recall goes something like:
Khajiit with no points in stam has 8,000 Stamina on which to use on snipe, which costs this one 1600 stam and deals 3500 damage. Khajiit has 5 snipes worth of stam so this one is walking around with 17,500 damage worth of snipes.

Khajiit with all points in stam has 24,000 Stamina on which to use snipe, which costs this one 1600 stam and deals 6000 damage. Khajiit has 15 snipes worth of stam and is walking around with 90,000 damage worth of snipes.

Khajiit with all points in stam has only 3x the resource, but deals almost 6x the damage.

That argument ignores the value of regen, but I guess it holds up in short fights. If you really want to hash that stuff out go to tamrielfoundry.com

Chilly-McFreeze

Urza1234 wrote: »

Honestly I think a large part of why you dont see hybrids is just the 'meta'. Each character out there has like 9k of base off resource and 0.5k regen that they dont fully utilize.

I think another big reason is that for fully geared players, between armor skills, food, jewelry, pots, and light attack weaving; managing their main resource isnt an issue, they dont feel like they need that extra 9k base of their off resource for anything but maybe dodging or some minor utility spells.
-This is I think a major reason that ZOS is nerfing the Champion Points associated with resource management, resource management is just brainless right now

A perhaps better reason is that most ultimates in the game scale off of your max resource, be that magicka or stamina. Not the total of those two resources no, the max of the two, so if you hybrid at all your ults will suffer for it.

There is also the fact that the armor skills that give weapon damage, spell crit, and spell pen are gated behind '5 or more' requirements, which weights a character in one direction or the other.

That being said, if you accept that your ults will be 80% as effective, hybridization can be pretty attractive, especially after they nerf regen. If you look at the spell coefficients most spells are buffered not only by your base Stam/Mag values, but also your base weapon/spell damage values. If you run the numbers with the link provided, even if you only have 2/3 of your max potential magicka or stamina, each spell will still do ~80% of the max potential damage. You also take much better advantage of tri/bi food and tri/bi pots. There are also many item sets that specifically support hybridization.
http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php

Whether or not the OP finds my musings about hybridization useful, that link I provided most certainly is, as it reveals that Magicka/Stamina scaling is not as impactful as many think. This is good because ZOS is unlikely to ever change the fact that spell efficacy scales of your magicka/stamina, people might have to regear their characters. People get suicidally upset at the notion that they might have to regear their characters, just look at the outcry over the incoming nerfs to the Warlord CP etc

As someone who plays a hybrid myself I may can add to that.

Firstoff it isn't only the Meta dmg-output wise but also the distinct picture of how the game has to be played/ of the meta in people's mind. If they see you puggin even a simple vet dungeon as a dps-hybrid you probably get kicked right away, regardless wether or not you pull that 20k+ dps. Just because you COULD be more effective with a pure build. (Not everyone does that, but it's just as common as kicking players because they aren't in higher cp regions. Stupid.)

Second, you have to really know what you are doing. It's easier to have good dps with a common meta build, even if you are clueless why you do stuff, than to have good dps as a hybrid. Reason is the stated scaling of dmg from max resources. Also, you can't compensate for anything because there is no cap as to what a pure build could bring. You "could" have more of this or that as a pure build than you can have on a mixed build. With soft caps there is something to work towards to, e.g. "my stam attacks are 5% under the ordinary stam values at the soft cap but therefore my magicka stuff does 50% more dmg than from a pure stam char."

As for the resource management a hybrid doesn't need a high amount of stam/mag regen because you split your used resources. That's a positive thing about hybrids. But it doesn't mean they never run out of resources. With the removal of cost reduction cp that will happen faster. Pure builds might compenstate for that with changing one of the three wpn/spell dmg glyphs to the respective cost reduction glyph. While a hybrid probably has to use two cost red. glyphs because they either reduce stam costs OR mag costs to get back to the current level, leaving them with even less dmg.

On the other side, if they remove dmg scaling on max resources, the meta would only shift from "max stam + max wpn dmg" to "max wpn dmg" (I know, there is crit and regen as well, but you've got the idea). There will always be a meta because stuff is 0,05% more efficient than everything else.

KerinKor

CosmicSoul wrote: »

One thing is for sure if they did remove stats scaling it might help bring hybrids back to an extent.

Indeed, the system as designed is the antithesis of the "play how you like" philosophy ZOS hyped pre-release.

Chilly-McFreeze

I thought about this a bit more. Currently hybrids suffer from the Design that skill dmg is based on max ressources and the respective wpn or mag dmg. We just cant reach enough max ressources to get decent skill damage compared to a pure Build.

But would it be different if skill dmg only scales with weapon/ spell dmg? It would be better for hybrids as it is now but they would still be off worse in comparison to pure builds. While a stam char can wear two sets to raise his single needed dmg stat (eg via hundings and briarheart) hybrids wouldn't be able to reach such high stats bc we have to split. Either run hundings for wpn dmg and bsw for spell dmg or julianos and briarheart etc. or pelinal and bsw/briarheart/agility etc. The pure stam would have far higher dmg Values simply because he wouldnt have to split and call go full wpn dmg.

Now one might wish to introduce caps at wpn/spell dmg tho extreme stacking would become useless. Maybe at a value that a hybrid can reach. Then the difference would come from higher crit chances because, again, hybrids must split.

If the crit cap is introduced as well, the meta would shift to hybrid dk since flames of oblivion grants major prophecy and Major savagery

mr_wazzabi

There are too many sets that are pure resource pool like draugr hulk and necropotence.

I suggest all skills including ultimates scale off BOTH max magicka and stamina, therefore not nerfing these sets to uselessness, but still allowing hybrids to flourish.

There are still magicka sets that are medium armour and stamina sets that are light armour, meaning zos had hybrids in mind with their creation.

With this system, stamina builds can finally use shields to survive unavoidable aoe damage like in trials. Vma won't be cancer for stam players that haven't completely memorized every portal spawn (currently, that's stam nb's best hope to flawless).

THEDKEXPERIENCE

But ... but ... but my Magplar is soooo close to 50k Magicka!

GrumpyDuckling

Urza1234 wrote: »

Honestly I think a large part of why you dont see hybrids is just the 'meta'. Each character out there has like 9k of base off resource and 0.5k regen that they dont fully utilize.

I think another big reason is that for fully geared players, between armor skills, food, jewelry, pots, and light attack weaving; managing their main resource isnt an issue, they dont feel like they need that extra 9k base of their off resource for anything but maybe dodging or some minor utility spells.
-This is I think a major reason that ZOS is nerfing the Champion Points associated with resource management, resource management is just brainless right now

A perhaps better reason is that most ultimates in the game scale off of your max resource, be that magicka or stamina. Not the total of those two resources no, the max of the two, so if you hybrid at all your ults will suffer for it.

There is also the fact that the armor skills that give weapon damage, spell crit, and spell pen are gated behind '5 or more' requirements, which weights a character in one direction or the other.

That being said, if you accept that your ults will be 80% as effective, hybridization can be pretty attractive, especially after they nerf regen. If you look at the spell coefficients most spells are buffered not only by your base Stam/Mag values, but also your base weapon/spell damage values. If you run the numbers with the link provided, even if you only have 2/3 of your max potential magicka or stamina, each spell will still do ~80% of the max potential damage. You also take much better advantage of tri/bi food and tri/bi pots. There are also many item sets that specifically support hybridization.
http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php

Whether or not the OP finds my musings about hybridization useful, that link I provided most certainly is, as it reveals that Magicka/Stamina scaling is not as impactful as many think. This is good because ZOS is unlikely to ever change the fact that spell efficacy scales of your magicka/stamina, people might have to regear their characters. People get suicidally upset at the notion that they might have to regear their characters, just look at the outcry over the incoming nerfs to the Warlord CP etc

Because I'm stubborn at times and like going against the "most effective way to play," I have 2 devoted hybrid characters. Both of them are okay and fine to use if:

- I'm doing dungeons with a good group who doesn't care that it'll take us an extra 30-120 seconds to down a boss.
- I'm following a large group in PVP.
- I'm questing by myself.

But the following instances are more frustrating to use a hybrid for:

- VMA, because the longer enemies stay alive, the more likely I am to die. It's a damage race, and that ~20% less damage and healing is a game changer.
- Fighting against good PVP players and solo play in PVP. If my enemies have ~20% stronger burst damage and healing than I do, then I'm really hurting myself in those battles.
- Trials (unless tanking).

KanedaSyndrome

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

This max magicka/stamina scaling system is dull and hurts build variety. With the current system, to get the most out of our damage and healing builds the game strongly encourages us to dump most of, if not all of our resources into one attribute.

How about revamping the damage and healing system to make resources (health, magicka, stamina) simply... ya know, resources?

Weapon and spell damage exists. Healing done exists. Put more emphasis on those and allow resources to determine how often stamina and magicka skills can be used. Why should our damage and healing be so significantly punished for splitting up our attributes? The punishment should simply be less resources for casting abilities.

I agree completely, and I think this is only in the game since that's the way it was designed in the other elder scrolls games, but personally think that the amount of ressources shouldn't affect damage etc. It should be a stat based system where damage is disjointed from the amount of stamina etc.

Kay1

wolfdoggie_ESO wrote: »

Soon we'll have max HP scale damage too with Warden's Ice attack making it crap for Stamina/Magicka DPS. ;/ I don't like it.

Soon they will close 2 more campaigns and release one trial every 3 years because there will be only Brian the Khajiit and his friends doing quests and achievements because that's the endgame you know.

Remove the CP who increases damage also, who need damage if we can all start playing naked?

There's too many hybrid warriors here, no, your Magiwarriorassasin with 30 points into health and 20 into Magicka and Stamina won't be viable ever.

The pain and the tears when you get matched with those hybrid warriors and they post in chat I'm a magsorc but it's okay I can tank and then the first boss one shot him and keeps telling to everyone in the chat that this is a bug and that he used to tank him without blocking..

idk

It is common that resources related to the skills contribute to the amount of damage and healing a skill does. This is in game that have equivalents of weapon and spell damage.

Further, the suggestion provided seems to be directed at making hybrids viable. However, hybrids designed to be hybrids would still be weaker. The better sets are directed towards pure builds and there are other stats are specific to weapon or spell damage. This does not even take into account CP.

Even when there was a low soft cap on max stats builds designed as a real hybrid were not as strong as pure builds as a result of the base game design that is not addressed by OP.

DHale

How is this dull? It allows you to perform several rolls and do them reasonably well. Out of all the things I would ever want them to change this would not be on the top 1000. Build diversity is code for inefficient and ineffective. I have been playing mass effect when not playing ESO took me about 4 days to find the most effective build. Guess what in multiplayer mode everyone else was running it too.

zaria

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

It is common that resources related to the skills contribute to the amount of damage and healing a skill does. This is in game that have equivalents of weapon and spell damage.

Further, the suggestion provided seems to be directed at making hybrids viable. However, hybrids designed to be hybrids would still be weaker. The better sets are directed towards pure builds and there are other stats are specific to weapon or spell damage. This does not even take into account CP.

Even when there was a low soft cap on max stats builds designed as a real hybrid were not as strong as pure builds as a result of the base game design that is not addressed by OP.

Was this true then we had soft caps?
Don't remember except slotting typical silver shards to an mage build to spend stamina
but magic and stamina builds was an thing back then too, but more class based.

DragonBound

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Urza1234 wrote: »

Honestly I think a large part of why you dont see hybrids is just the 'meta'. Each character out there has like 9k of base off resource and 0.5k regen that they dont fully utilize.

I think another big reason is that for fully geared players, between armor skills, food, jewelry, pots, and light attack weaving; managing their main resource isnt an issue, they dont feel like they need that extra 9k base of their off resource for anything but maybe dodging or some minor utility spells.
-This is I think a major reason that ZOS is nerfing the Champion Points associated with resource management, resource management is just brainless right now

A perhaps better reason is that most ultimates in the game scale off of your max resource, be that magicka or stamina. Not the total of those two resources no, the max of the two, so if you hybrid at all your ults will suffer for it.

There is also the fact that the armor skills that give weapon damage, spell crit, and spell pen are gated behind '5 or more' requirements, which weights a character in one direction or the other.

That being said, if you accept that your ults will be 80% as effective, hybridization can be pretty attractive, especially after they nerf regen. If you look at the spell coefficients most spells are buffered not only by your base Stam/Mag values, but also your base weapon/spell damage values. If you run the numbers with the link provided, even if you only have 2/3 of your max potential magicka or stamina, each spell will still do ~80% of the max potential damage. You also take much better advantage of tri/bi food and tri/bi pots. There are also many item sets that specifically support hybridization.
http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php

Whether or not the OP finds my musings about hybridization useful, that link I provided most certainly is, as it reveals that Magicka/Stamina scaling is not as impactful as many think. This is good because ZOS is unlikely to ever change the fact that spell efficacy scales of your magicka/stamina, people might have to regear their characters. People get suicidally upset at the notion that they might have to regear their characters, just look at the outcry over the incoming nerfs to the Warlord CP etc

As someone who plays a hybrid myself I may can add to that.

Firstoff it isn't only the Meta dmg-output wise but also the distinct picture of how the game has to be played/ of the meta in people's mind. If they see you puggin even a simple vet dungeon as a dps-hybrid you probably get kicked right away, regardless wether or not you pull that 20k+ dps. Just because you COULD be more effective with a pure build. (Not everyone does that, but it's just as common as kicking players because they aren't in higher cp regions. Stupid.)

Second, you have to really know what you are doing. It's easier to have good dps with a common meta build, even if you are clueless why you do stuff, than to have good dps as a hybrid. Reason is the stated scaling of dmg from max resources. Also, you can't compensate for anything because there is no cap as to what a pure build could bring. You "could" have more of this or that as a pure build than you can have on a mixed build. With soft caps there is something to work towards to, e.g. "my stam attacks are 5% under the ordinary stam values at the soft cap but therefore my magicka stuff does 50% more dmg than from a pure stam char."

As for the resource management a hybrid doesn't need a high amount of stam/mag regen because you split your used resources. That's a positive thing about hybrids. But it doesn't mean they never run out of resources. With the removal of cost reduction cp that will happen faster. Pure builds might compenstate for that with changing one of the three wpn/spell dmg glyphs to the respective cost reduction glyph. While a hybrid probably has to use two cost red. glyphs because they either reduce stam costs OR mag costs to get back to the current level, leaving them with even less dmg.

On the other side, if they remove dmg scaling on max resources, the meta would only shift from "max stam + max wpn dmg" to "max wpn dmg" (I know, there is crit and regen as well, but you've got the idea). There will always be a meta because stuff is 0,05% more efficient than everything else.

Yes that is one positive thing about hybrids but for challenging content you need a certain dps on certain bosses, and from my understanding hybrids do not bring enough of that mind sharing your build?

DragonBound

KerinKor wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

One thing is for sure if they did remove stats scaling it might help bring hybrids back to an extent.

Indeed, the system as designed is the antithesis of the "play how you like" philosophy ZOS hyped pre-release.

Yea I got the impression to sadly come to find out hybrids use to be a thing but not anymore because of some of the changes.

DragonBound

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Urza1234 wrote: »

Honestly I think a large part of why you dont see hybrids is just the 'meta'. Each character out there has like 9k of base off resource and 0.5k regen that they dont fully utilize.

I think another big reason is that for fully geared players, between armor skills, food, jewelry, pots, and light attack weaving; managing their main resource isnt an issue, they dont feel like they need that extra 9k base of their off resource for anything but maybe dodging or some minor utility spells.
-This is I think a major reason that ZOS is nerfing the Champion Points associated with resource management, resource management is just brainless right now

A perhaps better reason is that most ultimates in the game scale off of your max resource, be that magicka or stamina. Not the total of those two resources no, the max of the two, so if you hybrid at all your ults will suffer for it.

There is also the fact that the armor skills that give weapon damage, spell crit, and spell pen are gated behind '5 or more' requirements, which weights a character in one direction or the other.

That being said, if you accept that your ults will be 80% as effective, hybridization can be pretty attractive, especially after they nerf regen. If you look at the spell coefficients most spells are buffered not only by your base Stam/Mag values, but also your base weapon/spell damage values. If you run the numbers with the link provided, even if you only have 2/3 of your max potential magicka or stamina, each spell will still do ~80% of the max potential damage. You also take much better advantage of tri/bi food and tri/bi pots. There are also many item sets that specifically support hybridization.
http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php

Whether or not the OP finds my musings about hybridization useful, that link I provided most certainly is, as it reveals that Magicka/Stamina scaling is not as impactful as many think. This is good because ZOS is unlikely to ever change the fact that spell efficacy scales of your magicka/stamina, people might have to regear their characters. People get suicidally upset at the notion that they might have to regear their characters, just look at the outcry over the incoming nerfs to the Warlord CP etc

Because I'm stubborn at times and like going against the "most effective way to play," I have 2 devoted hybrid characters. Both of them are okay and fine to use if:

- I'm doing dungeons with a good group who doesn't care that it'll take us an extra 30-120 seconds to down a boss.
- I'm following a large group in PVP.
- I'm questing by myself.

But the following instances are more frustrating to use a hybrid for:

- VMA, because the longer enemies stay alive, the more likely I am to die. It's a damage race, and that ~20% less damage and healing is a game changer.
- Fighting against good PVP players and solo play in PVP. If my enemies have ~20% stronger burst damage and healing than I do, then I'm really hurting myself in those battles.
- Trials (unless tanking).

Same goes for many vet dungeons to for hybrids sadly. Also check out this guys video on hybrids for pvp, you will do way better and they are beast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZIe2PaDw9Y

BadLuckCharm

DHale wrote: »

How is this dull? It allows you to perform several rolls and do them reasonably well. Out of all the things I would ever want them to change this would not be on the top 1000. Build diversity is code for inefficient and ineffective. I have been playing mass effect when not playing ESO took me about 4 days to find the most effective build. Guess what in multiplayer mode everyone else was running it too.

In that case, there's no sense in having builds at all: all classes should be exactly alike, you press this button, you get that result, everywhere, every time.
If you can't have build diversity and still be efficient, it's a waste of thought, effort and time to even have the option put in the game.

GrumpyDuckling

DHale wrote: »

How is this dull? It allows you to perform several rolls and do them reasonably well. Out of all the things I would ever want them to change this would not be on the top 1000. Build diversity is code for inefficient and ineffective. I have been playing mass effect when not playing ESO took me about 4 days to find the most effective build. Guess what in multiplayer mode everyone else was running it too.

It's a bit dull (from my perspective) when, for example, a magsorc with all attribute points into magicka can perform every single role in a dungeon without switching gear or CP. Why use a tank build when I can slot the Twilight Matriarch (burst healing), shield stack to my heart's content (tanking), and drop insane DPS AOE numbers (damage) all at the same time?

In PVP, some of the hardest hitting damage builds can also drop high self healing numbers. Why build anything other than a high-level DPS build when you can still self-heal effectively? There's too little trade off.

Imagine if the max attribute scaling was removed. Then, you'd have to choose between dividing your damage and healing. Want to hit really hard? Okay, but you're giving up your ability to heal yourself well enough. Want to heal really well? Okay, but you're giving up damage. Want to do both at an average rate? Okay, split between them or do anything in-between.

WalksonGraves

I enjoy the few skills that scale with hp and ignore other base stats.

BRogueNZ

Agree with OP.
I'm not sure they ZOS would be motivated enough for a complete over haul like that.
Maybe, what would I know. ESOII?

Juhasow

The base problem isnt that skill scales off max resource but that skills scale off the resource that is needed to use them with few exceptions. Formula is here http://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php . Problem with scalling is that if skill would be scaled of higher resources or even from both it could create some crazy OP builds like for example stam sorc that can get strong shield from hardened ward , stamplar that can get strong heals from BoL and many others and possibly this is the reason why current formula looks like above.

Urza1234

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

It's a bit dull (from my perspective) when, for example, a magsorc with all attribute points into magicka can perform every single role in a dungeon without switching gear or CP. Why use a tank build when I can slot the Twilight Matriarch (burst healing), shield stack to my heart's content (tanking), and drop insane DPS AOE numbers (damage) all at the same time?

In PVP, some of the hardest hitting damage builds can also drop high self healing numbers. Why build anything other than a high-level DPS build when you can still self-heal effectively? There's too little trade off.

Imagine if the max attribute scaling was removed. Then, you'd have to choose between dividing your damage and healing. Want to hit really hard? Okay, but you're giving up your ability to heal yourself well enough. Want to heal really well? Okay, but you're giving up damage. Want to do both at an average rate? Okay, split between them or do anything in-between.

Well the problem wit that theory is that even shielding and healing numbers are based off of spell damage along with magicka.

Honestly I think your sense of game design is fine, the sort of trade-off you're talking about is reasonable and not uncommon in other games. The problem is that removing magicka scaling would not change that in this game.

Seriously go to the link I already posted early so you will have a better idea of what you are talking about: http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php

Urza1234

WalksonGraves wrote: »

I enjoy the few skills that scale with hp and ignore other base stats.

Yes, but so far they are all self-healing and self-shielding spells, which is reasonable. Warden has a spell that does direct damage based on HP. If the scaling on that ability were decent it would be OP, but it wont be so instead it will be some boring baseline damage for the HP froststaff tanks that ZOS is forcing frost wardens to be, and it will be useless for anyone who wanted more magicka based frost spells.

Solariken

I strongly agree with the OP from a design standpoint. But I'm here to tell you that the only reason ZOS added damage scaling to max resources was to artificially convert their existing four (only four!? What a joke...) classes into eight. This makes it seem, to the casual gamer at least, that ZOS' class/game design isn't complete garbage and lacking all over the place.

Urza1234

Solariken wrote: »

I strongly agree with the OP from a design standpoint. But I'm here to tell you that the only reason ZOS added damage scaling to max resources was to artificially convert their existing four (only four!? What a joke...) classes into eight. This makes it seem, to the casual gamer at least, that ZOS' class/game design isn't complete garbage and lacking all over the place.

I clicked agree, but I needed to agree with this more.

AFrostWolf

Agreed.