An increase in "invincible" builds?

davey1107

In recent weeks, I feel like we're seeing more and more invincible builds...the players who get cornered by 10-20 other players, run in a circle around a tree or rock casting endless heals and wards, and who take forever to take down in a long, boring battle with no real reward.

So, for discussion:

1. Does it seem like these builds are really on the rise? (Or am I running into the same three guys over and over).

2. Is there something off with a player being able to endlessly survive attacks from 10+ other players?

3. Do these builds enhance or hurt pvp? (I find them tedious, but I'm open-minded to other opinions. The way I can accept that, sure, someone out there loves Paulette Shore films).

jarrandub17_ESO

You have a valid point, most of the time when I see these builds I get bored after 60 seconds of getting nowhere

Skinzz

That's the point of the build. Extremely high survivability but no dps. It's a trade off.

PactMender

xskinzcity wrote: »

That's the point of the build. Extremely high survivability but no dps. It's a trade off.

trade off? youre on xbox skin you should know better! OP is right damn near all of AD DC who are stam builds are fengrush fanboy orc stam sorcs posers who wear 5 or 6 or 7 heavy armor and they also have stupid high dps every one wants their cake and eat it too, like mag sorcerer ive seen these near invincible stam builds have mobility with damage and survivability. there are no trade offs. every update from thieves guild on up pvp balance has gotten worse.

OP these builds hurt pvp.

Dr_Ganknstein

This is what happens when high DPS increases healing. Healing should be totally separate. Vigor is probably the best heal in the game, lol.

Vapirko

I think there definitely needs to be a way around it for sure. I had this happen in Azuras the other day, even without cp, and the sorc just ran around a tower for 10 min with 6 of us focusing them I was even using drain mag and stam poisons. It's absurd. Of course they die eventually, they can't actually do anything. I called bs on them after and they got back to me saying they were actually good for being able to 1v5. IMO being able 1v5 means you take them all down or at least take 1-2 of us with you. Anyone can make a build that can run around spamming heals and shields. In light of both spamming abilities and constantly running around trees, i think it would be interesting to have something implemented where spamming causes abilities to cost exponentially more after a while. Although idk how you tell the difference between someone pulling this kind of bs and someone actually fighting to stay alive/fight back.

pjwb16_ESO

Vapirko wrote: »

I think there definitely needs to be a way around it for sure. I had this happen in Azuras the other day, even without cp, and the sorc just ran around a tower for 10 min with 6 of us focusing them I was even using drain mag and stam poisons. It's absurd. Of course they die eventually, they can't actually do anything. I called bs on them after and they got back to me saying they were actually good for being able to 1v5. IMO being able 1v5 means you take them all down or at least take 1-2 of us with you. Anyone can make a build that can run around spamming heals and shields. In light of both spamming abilities and constantly running around trees, i think it would be interesting to have something implemented where spamming causes abilities to cost exponentially more after a while. Although idk how you tell the difference between someone pulling this kind of bs and someone actually fighting to stay alive/fight back.

Ye right give everything the streak treatment, dont let the door hit you on my way out

Vapirko

pjwb16_ESO wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

I think there definitely needs to be a way around it for sure. I had this happen in Azuras the other day, even without cp, and the sorc just ran around a tower for 10 min with 6 of us focusing them I was even using drain mag and stam poisons. It's absurd. Of course they die eventually, they can't actually do anything. I called bs on them after and they got back to me saying they were actually good for being able to 1v5. IMO being able 1v5 means you take them all down or at least take 1-2 of us with you. Anyone can make a build that can run around spamming heals and shields. In light of both spamming abilities and constantly running around trees, i think it would be interesting to have something implemented where spamming causes abilities to cost exponentially more after a while. Although idk how you tell the difference between someone pulling this kind of bs and someone actually fighting to stay alive/fight back.

Ye right give everything the streak treatment, dont let the door hit you on my way out

Coming from someone who probably lives on this kind of playing

pjwb16_ESO

Vapirko wrote: »

pjwb16_ESO wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

I think there definitely needs to be a way around it for sure. I had this happen in Azuras the other day, even without cp, and the sorc just ran around a tower for 10 min with 6 of us focusing them I was even using drain mag and stam poisons. It's absurd. Of course they die eventually, they can't actually do anything. I called bs on them after and they got back to me saying they were actually good for being able to 1v5. IMO being able 1v5 means you take them all down or at least take 1-2 of us with you. Anyone can make a build that can run around spamming heals and shields. In light of both spamming abilities and constantly running around trees, i think it would be interesting to have something implemented where spamming causes abilities to cost exponentially more after a while. Although idk how you tell the difference between someone pulling this kind of bs and someone actually fighting to stay alive/fight back.

Ye right give everything the streak treatment, dont let the door hit you on my way out

Coming from someone who probably lives on this kind of playing

No, you can check my Youtube, im actively pursuing an aggressive (some would say sometimes suicidal) play style and im actively going for kills... Im just better then the majority

Turelus

CP changes with Morrowind will likely help with this a bit.

Domander

Turelus wrote: »

CP changes with Morrowind will likely help with this a bit.

I was thinking the same thing.

Biro123

I tried making a nigh-on invincible build. for my stamsorc. Still dies really quick. Guess I just need to l2p it (or roll DK)..

I don't really know whats wrong with it..Feels like it should be ok in theory... plenty into block cost reduction, yet runs out of stam really quick while blocking. Loads of health recov (5k when troll king/orgnums procs) - and crit-surge heals - and vigour.. I think its mostly a l2p issue since I'm used to ranged/dmg shields - but I dunno how these permablock builds work...

iseko

Biro123 wrote: »

I tried making a nigh-on invincible build. for my stamsorc. Still dies really quick. Guess I just need to l2p it (or roll DK)..

I don't really know whats wrong with it..Feels like it should be ok in theory... plenty into block cost reduction, yet runs out of stam really quick while blocking. Loads of health recov (5k when troll king/orgnums procs) - and crit-surge heals - and vigour.. I think its mostly a l2p issue since I'm used to ranged/dmg shields - but I dunno how these permablock builds work...

Base block cost is 2.2k or something. Cost reduction is diminutive. You can get it to 700-1000 rather easily, 400 is the theoretical minimum. Which means perma blocking would require a return of stam of about 1400-2000 stam per second (800 minimum). This is why stamDKs make good permablockers. Battleroar. Helping hands. Constitution. They can get stam back from multiple passives.

You need high stam to make it work which makes vigor strong heal. Then it just becomes inc dmg versus incoming heals. Negating dmg by los'ing is good.

iseko

Turelus wrote: »

CP changes with Morrowind will likely help with this a bit.

Not that much. Stam regen is 0% anyways when blocking. A "permablocker" mag build will feel the changes prob yes.

br0steen

"run in a circle around a tree or rock casting endless heals and wards"

There's your answer right there. People kite when facing multiple players, they aren't invincible, people are just dumb enough keep running in circle's behind the player. If I see someone kiting 10 dudes around a tree I'll just wait until he comes back around and throw a cc. Group catches up because of that and all of a sudden party's over.

PactMender wrote: »

xskinzcity wrote: »

That's the point of the build. Extremely high survivability but no dps. It's a trade off.

trade off? youre on xbox skin you should know better! OP is right damn near all of AD DC who are stam builds are fengrush fanboy orc stam sorcs posers who wear 5 or 6 or 7 heavy armor and they also have stupid high dps every one wants their cake and eat it too, like mag sorcerer ive seen these near invincible stam builds have mobility with damage and survivability. there are no trade offs. every update from thieves guild on up pvp balance has gotten worse.

OP these builds hurt pvp.

I haven't noticed alot of stam sorcs, although it does seem like most do wear heavy armor. There's issues with heavy armor though, you loose burst potential and mobility. There are heavy armor sets that allow you to get pretty high burst, and pairing heavy with proc sets helps as well. If you wear medium and run into a heavy armor user 1v1 it's pretty easy to get them to just waste resources then burst them down.

I don't see how these builds hurt pvp, they aren't unkillable, there is counterplay to heavy armor. It's not like if you wear heavy armor all of a sudden you are god mode with unlimited resources and defend keeps by yourself against two 24 man groups.

Torbschka

Biro123 wrote: »

I tried making a nigh-on invincible build. for my stamsorc. Still dies really quick. Guess I just need to l2p it (or roll DK)..

I don't really know whats wrong with it..Feels like it should be ok in theory... plenty into block cost reduction, yet runs out of stam really quick while blocking. Loads of health recov (5k when troll king/orgnums procs) - and crit-surge heals - and vigour.. I think its mostly a l2p issue since I'm used to ranged/dmg shields - but I dunno how these permablock builds work...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EIsmvB9lvIQ

I only use trollking, i think blocking isnt the way to go for stam sorc - as u said, DK would be better for that.

On topic:

I can just aggree, way to easy to survive multiple people if u want to, reason i always try to fighg back (like in the Video).

Gilvoth

everyone should be on the same level and equal in pvp. but in eso they're not and it ruins pvp.

Biro123

Torbschka wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I tried making a nigh-on invincible build. for my stamsorc. Still dies really quick. Guess I just need to l2p it (or roll DK)..

I don't really know whats wrong with it..Feels like it should be ok in theory... plenty into block cost reduction, yet runs out of stam really quick while blocking. Loads of health recov (5k when troll king/orgnums procs) - and crit-surge heals - and vigour.. I think its mostly a l2p issue since I'm used to ranged/dmg shields - but I dunno how these permablock builds work...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EIsmvB9lvIQ

I only use trollking, i think blocking isnt the way to go for stam sorc - as u said, DK would be better for that.

On topic:

I can just aggree, way to easy to survive multiple people if u want to, reason i always try to fighg back (like in the Video).

Yeah, I guess you're right.. When I think about it, Stamsorc has more mobility tools - I should just use those better to minimise the number of attackers. And I need to get used to using the 1h/s ulti much more for a bit of free blocking.. I've only tried this setup for an hour or so in PVP so far - still have much to learn!

Torbschka

Biro123 wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I tried making a nigh-on invincible build. for my stamsorc. Still dies really quick. Guess I just need to l2p it (or roll DK)..

I don't really know whats wrong with it..Feels like it should be ok in theory... plenty into block cost reduction, yet runs out of stam really quick while blocking. Loads of health recov (5k when troll king/orgnums procs) - and crit-surge heals - and vigour.. I think its mostly a l2p issue since I'm used to ranged/dmg shields - but I dunno how these permablock builds work...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EIsmvB9lvIQ

I only use trollking, i think blocking isnt the way to go for stam sorc - as u said, DK would be better for that.

On topic:

I can just aggree, way to easy to survive multiple people if u want to, reason i always try to fighg back (like in the Video).

Yeah, I guess you're right.. When I think about it, Stamsorc has more mobility tools - I should just use those better to minimise the number of attackers. And I need to get used to using the 1h/s ulti much more for a bit of free blocking.. I've only tried this setup for an hour or so in PVP so far - still have much to learn!

Thats right, it feels for me more like:

Stam sorc mitigate dmg through mobility / los
Stam DK mitigate DMG through los (to an extent), but mode on blocking + strong heals

U can stll play a great SNB stam sorc, but still, use vigor - Dodge roll - streak - dark deal for defense instead of blocking a lot (in my opinion).

DeviousCat

Ran into an EP Sorc last night at BRK lumber, 6 to 8 of us were hammering on him, including ulti's, he couldn't escape because of the BROKEN CC/Roots, had him encased for the entire time of about five minutes.

He just perma blocked, refreshed his shields, and healed and healed and healed.

I was so envious, being on my Sorc, I couldn't do that ever. Theres no amount of l2p that would let me do that.

Theory crafting and build testing the other day with a friend on his Sorc( only tune he plays, not a newb) it took four hits once his shield dropped to kill him. But not last night............

Yes, I think there is more than meets the eye going on in Cyrodill, Yes it's toxic and on the rise and Zos should really fit it.

br0steen

DeviousCat wrote: »

Yes, I think there is more than meets the eye going on in Cyrodill, Yes it's toxic and on the rise and Zos should really fit it.

People always claim something is toxic or cancer. If something is really broken that means theres no reasonable counterplay. Just because someone knows how to use their build and abilities effectively doesn't mean sorcs are "broken".
I guarantee if you run into a sorc constantly shielding, if you hit him with a drain magicka poison he will eventually go down. That's counterplay.

SneaK

Totally agree, numbers should always win the fight. They should create sets where if you outnumber a player 3:1 then there's a 75% chance the enemy spontaneously combusts for 100,000 flame damage with a 500 meter radius. Also, they should make a set called the Lumberjack, where if you and 9 other buddies are chasing down 1 person all the trees within 20 meters are cut down.

PactMender

br0steen wrote: »

"run in a circle around a tree or rock casting endless heals and wards"

There's your answer right there. People kite when facing multiple players, they aren't invincible, people are just dumb enough keep running in circle's behind the player. If I see someone kiting 10 dudes around a tree I'll just wait until he comes back around and throw a cc. Group catches up because of that and all of a sudden party's over.

PactMender wrote: »

xskinzcity wrote: »

That's the point of the build. Extremely high survivability but no dps. It's a trade off.

trade off? youre on xbox skin you should know better! OP is right damn near all of AD DC who are stam builds are fengrush fanboy orc stam sorcs posers who wear 5 or 6 or 7 heavy armor and they also have stupid high dps every one wants their cake and eat it too, like mag sorcerer ive seen these near invincible stam builds have mobility with damage and survivability. there are no trade offs. every update from thieves guild on up pvp balance has gotten worse.

OP these builds hurt pvp.

I haven't noticed alot of stam sorcs, although it does seem like most do wear heavy armor. There's issues with heavy armor though, you loose burst potential and mobility. There are heavy armor sets that allow you to get pretty high burst, and pairing heavy with proc sets helps as well. If you wear medium and run into a heavy armor user 1v1 it's pretty easy to get them to just waste resources then burst them down.

I don't see how these builds hurt pvp, they aren't unkillable, there is counterplay to heavy armor. It's not like if you wear heavy armor all of a sudden you are god mode with unlimited resources and defend keeps by yourself against two 24 man groups.

its not just stam sorcerer its all classes. its amazing how 10 playees can beat on a HA stam build. executes seem to be non effective i noticed on these builds.
it apears that these builds have immense regen, ive seen these players run and run and run.

CatchMeTrolling

Vapirko wrote: »

I think there definitely needs to be a way around it for sure. I had this happen in Azuras the other day, even without cp, and the sorc just ran around a tower for 10 min with 6 of us focusing them I was even using drain mag and stam poisons. It's absurd. Of course they die eventually, they can't actually do anything. I called bs on them after and they got back to me saying they were actually good for being able to 1v5. IMO being able 1v5 means you take them all down or at least take 1-2 of us with you. Anyone can make a build that can run around spamming heals and shields. In light of both spamming abilities and constantly running around trees, i think it would be interesting to have something implemented where spamming causes abilities to cost exponentially more after a while. Although idk how you tell the difference between someone pulling this kind of bs and someone actually fighting to stay alive/fight back.

Your issue is someone kiting & using their environment? Lol

Biro123

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

I think there definitely needs to be a way around it for sure. I had this happen in Azuras the other day, even without cp, and the sorc just ran around a tower for 10 min with 6 of us focusing them I was even using drain mag and stam poisons. It's absurd. Of course they die eventually, they can't actually do anything. I called bs on them after and they got back to me saying they were actually good for being able to 1v5. IMO being able 1v5 means you take them all down or at least take 1-2 of us with you. Anyone can make a build that can run around spamming heals and shields. In light of both spamming abilities and constantly running around trees, i think it would be interesting to have something implemented where spamming causes abilities to cost exponentially more after a while. Although idk how you tell the difference between someone pulling this kind of bs and someone actually fighting to stay alive/fight back.

Your issue is someone kiting & using their environment? Lol

What I'd like to see Is people *really* using their environment... kiting around a tree? pull back a branch on the way to spring back in the chasers face - lol.

Waffennacht

Biro123 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

I think there definitely needs to be a way around it for sure. I had this happen in Azuras the other day, even without cp, and the sorc just ran around a tower for 10 min with 6 of us focusing them I was even using drain mag and stam poisons. It's absurd. Of course they die eventually, they can't actually do anything. I called bs on them after and they got back to me saying they were actually good for being able to 1v5. IMO being able 1v5 means you take them all down or at least take 1-2 of us with you. Anyone can make a build that can run around spamming heals and shields. In light of both spamming abilities and constantly running around trees, i think it would be interesting to have something implemented where spamming causes abilities to cost exponentially more after a while. Although idk how you tell the difference between someone pulling this kind of bs and someone actually fighting to stay alive/fight back.

Your issue is someone kiting & using their environment? Lol

What I'd like to see Is people *really* using their environment... kiting around a tree? pull back a branch on the way to spring back in the chasers face - lol.

Mother Ducking awesome, If we could do that, that's all I would do lmfao

Tree Branch spam ftw!

Biro123

Biro123 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

I think there definitely needs to be a way around it for sure. I had this happen in Azuras the other day, even without cp, and the sorc just ran around a tower for 10 min with 6 of us focusing them I was even using drain mag and stam poisons. It's absurd. Of course they die eventually, they can't actually do anything. I called bs on them after and they got back to me saying they were actually good for being able to 1v5. IMO being able 1v5 means you take them all down or at least take 1-2 of us with you. Anyone can make a build that can run around spamming heals and shields. In light of both spamming abilities and constantly running around trees, i think it would be interesting to have something implemented where spamming causes abilities to cost exponentially more after a while. Although idk how you tell the difference between someone pulling this kind of bs and someone actually fighting to stay alive/fight back.

Your issue is someone kiting & using their environment? Lol

What I'd like to see Is people *really* using their environment... kiting around a tree? pull back a branch on the way to spring back in the chasers face - lol.

Mind - best use of environment I've done was to escape across a stream on my magsorc and nuke down the 4-5 people who decided to swim after me one at a time... They couldn't heal/block/shield - anything!

Poor players can make average opponents look superhuman

CatchMeTrolling

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

everyone should be on the same level and equal in pvp. but in eso they're not and it ruins pvp.

No they shouldn't, there will always be better player's in any game but these day's since everyone feels entitled to be on par with the actual good player's game's are catering to casuals, ESO is one of the biggest examples ironically. Removing skill and counter play, plus adding proc sets & poisons to appease the casual player's.

Everyone has the same tools, doesn't mean everyone is going to use them the same. That's the difference between theory crafting and copying cookie cutter builds.

CatchMeTrolling

Biro123 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

I think there definitely needs to be a way around it for sure. I had this happen in Azuras the other day, even without cp, and the sorc just ran around a tower for 10 min with 6 of us focusing them I was even using drain mag and stam poisons. It's absurd. Of course they die eventually, they can't actually do anything. I called bs on them after and they got back to me saying they were actually good for being able to 1v5. IMO being able 1v5 means you take them all down or at least take 1-2 of us with you. Anyone can make a build that can run around spamming heals and shields. In light of both spamming abilities and constantly running around trees, i think it would be interesting to have something implemented where spamming causes abilities to cost exponentially more after a while. Although idk how you tell the difference between someone pulling this kind of bs and someone actually fighting to stay alive/fight back.

Your issue is someone kiting & using their environment? Lol

What I'd like to see Is people *really* using their environment... kiting around a tree? pull back a branch on the way to spring back in the chasers face - lol.

Well I'd just drop all allessia bridge zergs into slaughter fish.

cschwingeb14_ESO

no-CP has a lot less of these guys. Try Azuras

Torbschka

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

everyone should be on the same level and equal in pvp. but in eso they're not and it ruins pvp.

No they shouldn't, there will always be better player's in any game but these day's since everyone feels entitled to be on par with the actual good player's game's are catering to casuals, ESO is one of the biggest examples ironically. Removing skill and counter play, plus adding proc sets & poisons to appease the casual player's.

Everyone has the same tools, doesn't mean everyone is going to use them the same. That's the difference between theory crafting and copying cookie cutter builds.

Thanks for making my post, its annoying to type on a smartphone