Losing the best players due to the current end game priority

Pallio

So eventually this game will just be RPs running around with their bow/resto heavy snowflake builds, never going to any vet content let alone HM raids. 2hr normal trial runs like old school D&D campains. Sounds great.

Balamoor

Pallio wrote: »

So eventually this game will just be RPs running around with their bow/resto heavy snowflake builds, never going to any vet content let alone HM raids. 2hr normal trial runs like old school D&D campains. Sounds great.

No, ESO will have a vast majority of PVE completionist that run small groups and enjoy the lore social aspects of collecting/questing as well as Competitive PVP players that enjoy PVP end game and battlefields.

And there isn't a solitary thing wrong with that.

If ZoS decided at this point to make the end game Raid centric or to start catering to the elite raid crowd it would be a mistake of NGE proportions. I believe ZoS understands that it has a loyal following, and is now focused on Balance/Connectivity while developing more content for it's core Audience.

And that is something the handful of raiders who play this game needs to deal with.

Ep1kMalware

ADarklore wrote: »

Based on what I'm reading, I think there is a LOT of people who are going stir crazy... winter blues?!? Perhaps ESO Blues... because the fact remains, we haven't had any NEW content in months and months. With SoTH being the last piece of 'content' added, One Tamriel was just a game revamp, and Homestead brought nothing for actual combat content. So by the time Morrowind hits, it will have been over a year since we've seen any actual SOLO combat content added... with DB being the last DLC for solo players.

I think many of us are frustrated at not having anything new added to the game as far as combat content, other than nerfs and game 'revamps' over and over. This reminds me of the winter blues, where you're stuck indoors for six months or more with the same stuff day in, day out... and only when spring appears do you gain any incentive to actually get out and do something. I think for many players Morrowind will be the arrival of spring... for now, everyone is cranky and stuck indoors with no incentive to do anything other than complain.

It's more like getting excited that summer is around the corner, come to find it out it'll atill be cold and windy all summer.

BenLocoDete

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Logicbomb00 wrote: »

This is not a good attitude that helps the game in any way. Everyone's entitled to the way they enjoy the game AS LONG AS they respect the way others enjoy the game.

I disagree completely. Min-maxers are the bane of every MMO. If you look through the forums posts, even today's, you will find threads where players are complaining about rudeness in PvP and getting kicked from groups. Who do you think is perpetrating these behaviours? It's the min-maxers - the people who don't grasp the point of RPGs. We're better off without them.

It is very welcome to see the Z team spending plenty of time in other ways to enjoy a potentially infinite universe other than just push the donkey forward with a shinier carrot on a stick.

Every now and then people cater for different styles, sometimes toward challenges and personal accomplishments, others to that smal revigorating moment you spend in a tavern, taking a breath and thinking about your latest adventure. Fighting the other side is like having yourself pinned to only one style, and then ultimately having to give up everything once you feel the wind of change.

Focusing on the ever-grinding is so dismissive for the entirety of the game that it definetely needs a balance, especially considering how much the game has grown in quests/landmasses/items-related content over the past years.

As a particular note, the addition of the champion points was one of the things that displeased me upon its announcement, exactly because of the neverending grind that you push some players.

Have I left upon its implementation? Yes.
Have I been a good player? Don't know, I've rambled a bunch in the forums.
Have I been heard? No... don't know, haven't rambled that much really.
Have the game improved? Yes. A lot!

I've been to MMOs before and there is a time when everyone in your guild just wants to max out every characte slot available, rushing quests, challenges and leaving behind a ton of valuable writing and beautiful scenery which took years for the developers to figure. And they sure feel trivialized if the "meta" is bluntly get through the whole game the fastest way possible.

Things like housing and crown-owned distinguised outfits are features that replenish players with conceptual ideas for characters and playthroughs.

Some people just like to log and have a chat with a guildie. And they have a good time doing it.

hmsdragonfly

ADarklore wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Based on what I'm reading, I think there is a LOT of people who are going stir crazy... winter blues?!? Perhaps ESO Blues... because the fact remains, we haven't had any NEW content in months and months. With SoTH being the last piece of 'content' added, One Tamriel was just a game revamp, and Homestead brought nothing for actual combat content. So by the time Morrowind hits, it will have been over a year since we've seen any actual SOLO combat content added... with DB being the last DLC for solo players.

I think many of us are frustrated at not having anything new added to the game as far as combat content, other than nerfs and game 'revamps' over and over. This reminds me of the winter blues, where you're stuck indoors for six months or more with the same stuff day in, day out... and only when spring appears do you gain any incentive to actually get out and do something. I think for many players Morrowind will be the arrival of spring... for now, everyone is cranky and stuck indoors with no incentive to do anything other than complain.

Well One Tamriel "revamp" pretty much saved the game. Sometimes those major restructures are more important than adding new raids etc.

This may be true, but it also meant leaving long term solo players with no new content for over a year! This is why so many people are unhappy, because while One Tamriel was great for altaholics and players who enjoy repeating the same exact content/quests over and over and over again, it did nothing for long term players who have completed all the quests and want something NEW to do. Morrowind will bring that, but hopefully One Tamriel was the end of their 'revamping old content' and they can finally start bringing NEW things to the table once again.

Resources are limited. You can only chose to do one of these following 2 things: restructure the core of the game or keep throwing in new content. A broken base game is broken, it doesn't matter how much new content is added.

In the short term, throwing in new content will please a portion of the playerbase, but in the long term, the game will die faster because more players will quit due to the broken structure of the game.

I am all for revamping before throwing new content in a broken base game. Players who are thirsty of new content will come back eventually when new content drops, players who are fed up with the broken structure of the game will never come back. Long term is always more important than short term.

StevieKingslayer

No such thing as "best player".
I have encounter CP limit capped players who play terribly in PVP, yet are great in PVE (and vice versa). It's all down to which style you wish to play. There is no "number one player" mug.

Just play how you wish, if other's choose to leave, that is their choice. I left when I felt burnt out and I came back and I'm just playing. People who are trying to win the trophy for best player will never be happy and will always feel like the game is designed to go against them.

raidentenshu_ESO

Hey elite players aka best players. Can I have your stuffs if you're planning on leaving?

reesenorman

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Personally, I am thankful for the min-maxers who take the time to post video and info. Because of them, I saved massive amounts of trial and error, and can now clear content that I struggled with before. If they think the game is out of balance, it is.

Finally someone not a potato

Magdalina

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

Maybe the game isn't for you, not every MMO need be raid or die.

Yeh they do.

Alot of players play mmos just to smash ***. Without this the game would definitely die. Roll players doing their own thing till they get bores won't pay zos bills.

Period. Less endgamers = more clown store crap.

How many players have completed vMA?
How many players have done vet Trials HM?

There you go.

I haven't done either of those. I'm more of a small group content, I find 12 people to be too much for me and solo vMA...meh. It just feels so...boring. Not impossible, not in need of a nerf, just not fun I think. I've gotten to last arena, I stopped because I realized I'm absolutely not having fun.

Now Shadow of the Hist dungeons...I'm actually really enjoying those, that's fun. It needs less rng for sure but choosing between challenge+rng and no challenge whatsoever I'll take the first one. Even good teams can struggle there. I've only recently finally bought that dlc and now I finally feel I'm getting better at it, more aware, faster reaction, etc. It's a good feeling.

The thing with challenging content is it gives the feeling of progression. And that's something that can keep people in the game for a very long time. Sure you can enjoy rp-ing and only ever fight anything to get an achievement decoration for your house, that's cool and not "wrong" in any way. But let's be honest, this is a game largely based on combat and where combat is involved, it feels good to be effective. But once you become more effective, you often start seeking for bigger challenge to test your newly acquired power against. Op challenging content like vMA/vet MoL/maybe SotH vet HM isn't there to be completed by all nor most of the playerbase, but it's there to inspire the playerbase, give us something to strive to. It's the players who complete those that share their builds and write guides. It's the type of content where you can really see if you're as good at killing stuff as you thought or not. This is something the game needs and something that definitely shouldn't be neglected.
Even if you're a pure rp-er, who knows, one day you might accidentally solo a world boss and like that feeling, and want to try it out more For that, there always needs to be that "more" to try out.

It shouldn't be the majority of the game, at least it definitely doesn't seem like it'd work in ESO with so many single-player oriented people, but it should be there.

NiclasFridholm

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

Hey elite players aka best players. Can I have your stuffs if you're planning on leaving?

No, you wouldnt know what to do with it!

Turelus

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Sadly, this is becoming more and more true. There is a whole generation coming that doesn't know what "RPG" stands for, let alone what it means.

Here's a hint for you. It's an acronym.

Requires Progressive Grinding.

Tabbycat

I think the game is at its healthiest when there is enough variety of content to keep all types of players happy.

I hope Morrowind comes with a nice mix of things to fit everyone's playstyle.

The PvP'ers are getting battlegrounds.

The casuals like me are getting an awesome story with Vivec.

The end-gamers should have a difficult Trial to look forward to.

hmsdragonfly

Magdalina wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

Maybe the game isn't for you, not every MMO need be raid or die.

Yeh they do.

Alot of players play mmos just to smash ***. Without this the game would definitely die. Roll players doing their own thing till they get bores won't pay zos bills.

Period. Less endgamers = more clown store crap.

How many players have completed vMA?
How many players have done vet Trials HM?

There you go.

I haven't done either of those. I'm more of a small group content, I find 12 people to be too much for me and solo vMA...meh. It just feels so...boring. Not impossible, not in need of a nerf, just not fun I think. I've gotten to last arena, I stopped because I realized I'm absolutely not having fun.

Now Shadow of the Hist dungeons...I'm actually really enjoying those, that's fun. It needs less rng for sure but choosing between challenge+rng and no challenge whatsoever I'll take the first one. Even good teams can struggle there. I've only recently finally bought that dlc and now I finally feel I'm getting better at it, more aware, faster reaction, etc. It's a good feeling.

The thing with challenging content is it gives the feeling of progression. And that's something that can keep people in the game for a very long time. Sure you can enjoy rp-ing and only ever fight anything to get an achievement decoration for your house, that's cool and not "wrong" in any way. But let's be honest, this is a game largely based on combat and where combat is involved, it feels good to be effective. But once you become more effective, you often start seeking for bigger challenge to test your newly acquired power against. Op challenging content like vMA/vet MoL/maybe SotH vet HM isn't there to be completed by all nor most of the playerbase, but it's there to inspire the playerbase, give us something to strive to. It's the players who complete those that share their builds and write guides. It's the type of content where you can really see if you're as good at killing stuff as you thought or not. This is something the game needs and something that definitely shouldn't be neglected.
Even if you're a pure rp-er, who knows, one day you might accidentally solo a world boss and like that feeling, and want to try it out more For that, there always needs to be that "more" to try out.

It shouldn't be the majority of the game, at least it definitely doesn't seem like it'd work in ESO with so many single-player oriented people, but it should be there.

In case you wonder I have completed vMA.

In fact, I am all for more endgame content.

It's just the fact that people who have done this kind of content are the minority.

Hand_Bacon

I'm Spartacus!

Personofsecrets

Is @Matmate wearing a Yokudan style helmet or have a costume for their horns?

raidentenshu_ESO

NiclasFridholm wrote: »

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

Hey elite players aka best players. Can I have your stuffs if you're planning on leaving?

No, you wouldnt know what to do with it!

You're probably right. I'm just not that elite enough to handle to Superior items that is obtained by an elitest best player. I just don't have the bloodlines to sustain it.

Bladefyre

Glamdring wrote: »

As in any game/sport its crucial to have eliteplayers, its them who drive the game forward and push the limits. If ZoS continue to cater mostly for the casual crownbuyer the game will die.

This is so very true. Everyone is certainly entitled to play the game the way they wish, as are those who play to raid. If the end-game players get nothing new, then they will leave. Then ZoS will get the idea that they don't need to add anything new since none left if in the game can complete the current hard content. Then the focus will shift to the more casual player and the crown store and end game will flounder. This is exactly what EA/BW did in SWTOR - no new raid in 2.25 years - 99% of us former end-game players are gone form the game.

I'm playing ESO in a more casual hardcore fashion to combat just this situation personally. I like that there is still content I've not yet done, that is challenging for a while to learn and then excel at:, but, this is simply my personal preference at the moment.

The long and the short of it is that ZoS needs to consider and release content for all types of players to maintain a robust game that features something for everyone.

Thorvarg

Turelus wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Sadly, this is becoming more and more true. There is a whole generation coming that doesn't know what "RPG" stands for, let alone what it means.

Here's a hint for you. It's an acronym.

Requires Progressive Grinding.

Signed (xXx legendary Narcissus Mirror xXx)

NiclasFridholm

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

NiclasFridholm wrote: »

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

Hey elite players aka best players. Can I have your stuffs if you're planning on leaving?

No, you wouldnt know what to do with it!

You're probably right. I'm just not that elite enough to handle to Superior items that is obtained by an elitest best player. I just don't have the bloodlines to sustain it.

I really do apologize for my rude comment earlier, it was just a stupid one. You really made me laugh with your reply. If I ever leave game ill make sure you will get all my stuff!

Beardimus

Glad to see the arguments both ways here. There is a huge assumption on this forum that end game has to = trials. That best at Trials = best. If I'm honnest these videos are dull, a load of dudes just stood their wacking buttons to a sequence, hack and slash is very nearly why I didn't buy the game, was glad as a Magika user that its not like that - thus my point is each to their own.

There is arguably MORE content than ever for a huge amount of the player base.

What gives anyone any more right over a wish for content in this game than anyone else?

The best thing for all of us is big player base, and a profitable game. Losing a few pro trial boys is nothing compared to ZOS income increasing dramatically with Homestead / Crown Crates and such, if we are talking health / longitude of the game.

NovaShadow

This thread reads like 2 groups of teenagers fighting over who has the best Pokemon cards.

Ya'll do realise this game is fantasy right? It's not actually real life. There's a whole world out there beyond the little pixels on your screen.

So much energy wasted over whose little pixel people can kill a little pixel monster faster.

Ya'll should play Connect 4 sometime. Pro tip throw checkers at your opponent.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

OrphanHelgen

Please stop troll comment and disrespect my post.
The essence of the post, is that I personally feel the endgame should get more love.
I havent ment anything harm towards roleplayers or other guilds. Still, im getting insulting and disrespecting comments about me and our guild members. I stay with facts and my point of view. I dont see how that is a crime.

Hand_Bacon

The game does need more end game raiding content. I don't think there is a solid argument against that. The misconception is that one area of the game has to suffer for another to be done well. This is where ZOS needs to up its game.

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

If this isn't a scene from that horrible John Travolta space movie...it should be.

Shalnark

you all should have the knowledge to say that what he

NiclasFridholm wrote: »

About these parses: This is without a doubt one of the most skilled players I have ever played with. I see why people find it hard to believe 57K Runner/Catcher but I had the priviledge of raiding with Failer and seen it myself. I hope there is a video with screenshot showing up soon cause this jelous BS needs to stop. (Although I do enjoy it a tiny bit)
It is truly a great loss to our guild and the game to lose such a great player...

if only it was correct..
57.559 x 332,7 = 19.149.879,3 .. check his total dmg now.

And like this one, i saw soo many parses (posted in guild chat) where the numbers didnt match at all. And it happens only to him? Cause everybody else have pretty ok ish parses.

Also someone said you have better group dps basing on 1st vMoL boss. Do you know that you had the shield bug twice? it means that someone in your group had at least 300k dps for few seconds. And,even with this bug, i'm sorry to disappoint you, but your kill is almost the same as ours, without bug though.

I respect you guys, but you are only flaunting your "dps superiority". Size matters i agree, but what you have proven yet, is nothing special.

Flak

@OrphanHelgen First of all sorry to hear that you lost a friend, it seems that many progressive guilds have issues at the moment to keep their groups together. People are complaining that there is no content but on the other hand it's extremely rare to find a leaderboard where there isn't a big gap between #1 and #2 so I don't know, if people are not motivated to compete with other guilds for a topscore you can hardly call them progressive players. I agree though that we are in need for fresh content but as I remember ZOS announced that there will be one trial/year and I think that is quite good, just remember the days when none of the trials were scaled to maxlevel after the IC release, endgame raiding was basically dead.
I'm also lacking motivation to do the daily pledges and some other stuff but I guess it's natural after ~250 days playtime in a game. What I don't get is why on all of these discussions there has to be a battle between endgame and casual players, is Tamriel not big enough? If you're having fun in the game you're playing it the right way, and I'm saying that as a guy who's raiding 5 evenings a week. But if people find fun in doing something else it's their damn choice.

Maybe people would have taken your post more serious if you didn't try to show off, I don't think that DPS of some people really matters in this discussion.

OrphanHelgen

Shalnark wrote: »

you all should have the knowledge to say that what he

NiclasFridholm wrote: »

About these parses: This is without a doubt one of the most skilled players I have ever played with. I see why people find it hard to believe 57K Runner/Catcher but I had the priviledge of raiding with Failer and seen it myself. I hope there is a video with screenshot showing up soon cause this jelous BS needs to stop. (Although I do enjoy it a tiny bit)
It is truly a great loss to our guild and the game to lose such a great player...

if only it was correct..
57.559 x 332,7 = 19.149.879,3 .. check his total dmg now.

And like this one, i saw soo many parses (posted in guild chat) where the numbers didnt match at all. And it happens only to him? Cause everybody else have pretty ok ish parses.

Also someone said you have better group dps basing on 1st vMoL boss. Do you know that you had the shield bug twice? it means that someone in your group had at least 300k dps for few seconds. And,even with this bug, i'm sorry to disappoint you, but your kill is almost the same as ours, without bug though.

I respect you guys, but you are only flaunting your "dps superiority". Size matters i agree, but what you have proven yet, is nothing special.

Thank you for still trying to keep the respect, and I do the same as well. I can't speak for everyone here, but for my point of view, the reason we show the dps is not to brag, but to show that there is nothing wrong. And telling that the dps is too good to be true, is in that case something special. The group dps is nothing special, it is more then average in the game, but nothing special. You guys have the leaderboards and experience and years of stable group, which is harder to achieve then anything else here in this game.

My post is about end game in general. We have no videos about our groups, but lately we got alot of requests and players want to know what exactly is going on in our raids, so here we are posting. And first two comments I get is troll memes and then mashi attacks me with disrespectful posts. I have honestly done nothing wrong in this case other then supporting guildmembers and friends. If the dps Srslyfailer is doing, is too good to be true, then on his behalf (if thats a proper sentence XD ) we thank you for the compliment, that the most successful guilds out there are reacting that way on some dps numbers.

If the case is as followed, that our group dps are good but srslyfailer is pulling so high number and its legit, that shows that the other 7 dds are way behind what they should have been. That show for me, that me among others have to work harder to achieve better group dps, and I take that as constructive critism.

Again, there is not or have never been any intention from me to harm anyone, but as a grown up man here, I do not appretiate people making fun of me and attacking me or my guild members personally unless there is a good reason for it.

As mashi mentioned he lost the respect for us, I personally asked him in pm if it was before or after my salty comment. It was a small "burn" from my side, but not any worse then the "burns" we have recieved lately. Btw, Im still wondering if the lack of respect was before or after my comment. Because if it was after that comment, I appologize for making players feel bad becasue of what I was saying. But if it was before that, I really do not see the reason at all, as we have done nothing wrong other then supporting and proving what we are actually doing in a legit way.

NiclasFridholm

Shalnark wrote: »

you all should have the knowledge to say that what he

NiclasFridholm wrote: »

About these parses: This is without a doubt one of the most skilled players I have ever played with. I see why people find it hard to believe 57K Runner/Catcher but I had the priviledge of raiding with Failer and seen it myself. I hope there is a video with screenshot showing up soon cause this jelous BS needs to stop. (Although I do enjoy it a tiny bit)
It is truly a great loss to our guild and the game to lose such a great player...

if only it was correct..
57.559 x 332,7 = 19.149.879,3 .. check his total dmg now.

And like this one, i saw soo many parses (posted in guild chat) where the numbers didnt match at all. And it happens only to him? Cause everybody else have pretty ok ish parses.

Also someone said you have better group dps basing on 1st vMoL boss. Do you know that you had the shield bug twice? it means that someone in your group had at least 300k dps for few seconds. And,even with this bug, i'm sorry to disappoint you, but your kill is almost the same as ours, without bug though.

I respect you guys, but you are only flaunting your "dps superiority". Size matters i agree, but what you have proven yet, is nothing special.

The player in question ordered a new graphcard just to be able to record his runs, its just insane the amount of negativity that surround this. I get that its hard to believe some of the DPS parses if you have not seen it for yourself, but there will be Rakkhat recordings that hopefully will end anyones doubts! When that happens I hope we can go back to old school Leaderboard rivalry. And you are right, shield bugged on first boss and not sure who has claimed it was WR high!?

Also, the amount of bad testing is atm higher then ever, so if you think outside the box you might just get surprised with the results!

NobleNerd

ESO and ZOS have been going the way of casual single player rpg content for a while. Even if I personally want to see more than this it seems to be working for them and their major audience. Numbers have grown and the game is still largely populated in all zones!

I recently jumped back into ESO after about 6-7 months away and I am enjoying my time, making new friends, rekindling old ones and much more. Sometimes it is more our focus than the game itself that causes the disconnect.

OrphanHelgen

Flak wrote: »

@OrphanHelgen First of all sorry to hear that you lost a friend, it seems that many progressive guilds have issues at the moment to keep their groups together. People are complaining that there is no content but on the other hand it's extremely rare to find a leaderboard where there isn't a big gap between #1 and #2 so I don't know, if people are not motivated to compete with other guilds for a topscore you can hardly call them progressive players. I agree though that we are in need for fresh content but as I remember ZOS announced that there will be one trial/year and I think that is quite good, just remember the days when none of the trials were scaled to maxlevel after the IC release, endgame raiding was basically dead.
I'm also lacking motivation to do the daily pledges and some other stuff but I guess it's natural after ~250 days playtime in a game. What I don't get is why on all of these discussions there has to be a battle between endgame and casual players, is Tamriel not big enough? If you're having fun in the game you're playing it the right way, and I'm saying that as a guy who's raiding 5 evenings a week. But if people find fun in doing something else it's their damn choice.

Maybe people would have taken your post more serious if you didn't try to show off, I don't think that DPS of some people really matters in this discussion.

Thanks flak. You are right, morrowind are right around the corner, and it was maybe the wrong time to post such subject, allthough my main point was that increase hp on monsters and make it months and months of "new end game content", is a cheap solution. I also remember the reason CP got implemented, so players felt constant progression through their mmo experience. If no new content comes and players become more and more powerful, I understand the rage about cp. But if we get new content with the character progress, it is balanced. So far, they increasing hp on already content and make that a valid new end game content for a long period of time, and the new content that have been released lately, are purely towards their personal money income and not towards the quality of the game (in my opinion). Don't get me wrong, housing are amazing to have in a mmo, but I feel they could weave it in towards other balance patches.

Like I also mentioned, I got 39 more cp and lost 3k dps. If there was a clear reason to nerf, I would understand. But I used poisoned serpent set in a heavy attack build, and I have honestly seen no one uses that. I also used sunderflame, which was also a set that you rarely saw someone used. Two advantage I had with that set, was that on DW heavy attack, the fire dmg procced twice, and it could also crit. Both of those was changed in homestead patch, and it can no longer crit and fire dmg procs only once. Making it from 1k dps down to 250 dps in my build.

Was this too powerful? Was in a problem or a qq on the forums? I haven't seen it atleast, yet they nerf it without a clear reason why. So from my point of view, even with sleeper build and non meta setup, I still get nerfed with multiple k's of dps.