Make Ice Staff DPS viable? (+4% damage done passive)

stevepdodson_ESO888

Stannum wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Currently Ice Staves are totally useless for DPS

Cause one heavy attack and you start to play yakety sax running instead of DPSing

I think it should be buffed another way. For example put minor maim with frost elemental drain

i just imagined the boss being Benny Hill

Argah

Ha didn't know an ice staff grabs agro, was doing the dungeon with the spiders the other day and the big ones were always chasing me, I just thought our tank was stupid turns out it was me

Lord_Eomer

Maybe

Ice Tanking is almost failing as ice tanks can not be as good as sword and board tanks due to many reasons.

ZOS started somethig which is ending up badly unless they seriously balance tanking b/w S & B and Ice Staff

I was excited when this change had happened but its nothig good as sword and board..

ofSunhold

Other - buff but in another way (or even nerf)

Vaoh wrote: »

- If you are a Magicka DPS, you will have an Inferno staff (almost always backbarred) to cast Blockade of Flame, which deals 20%+ more damage than Blockade of Shock/Ice, and gets buffed by the DK group buff as well as a Shock staff frontbar AoE damage buff.

Did not know this. Ha!

Thank you!

Solariken

Maybe

Your suggestion would be fine but at this point I would prefer something like a bonus to phys/spell resist and reduce the time to charge a heavy attack by 33%.

Artis

No

VierulSquirrel wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

andreasranasen wrote: »

Why would anyone vote no on this?

No one uses Ice Staffs right now. You get kicked from trial guilds for even thinking of slotting one.

Ice Staffs needs a dmg increase buff!

Because other staves are better, not because you can't complete with the ice staff.

I vote no because it will be OP. It already has that defensive bonus and you can block for magicka with it. If you give it damage and leave that thing - there will be no reason to choose. Especially in PvP. Even in PvE - why bother thinking which skill to put where and which staff to use on which bar, if you can just use ice staff and have ALL your damage increase AND be able to block better?

Ice staff is viable, just not optimal for dps. And still a sorc with Ice will probably outdps most other builds maybe even optimal builds like NB.

Are we gonna ask to make 1hand and sword viable (=optimal for you, looks like) for DPS?

They should remove the block passive since they want players to better manage their resources. And you should not be able to compare Sword and board to ice staff in terms of dps or tanking in any game. Other MMOs tanks deal damage through their class abilities and aoe taunts/debuffs. Not an ice staff.
Also a sorc may be able to out dps with an ice staff, with a pet. Which isn't always viable in dps situations. The taunt also makes it obsolete in its current state.

Well, the thread didn't say anything about removing any passives. If it did - either way 4% to all damage is a nobrainer. Right you at least have to think how to organize your skill bars and which staves to use.

What? Why wouldn't I? This MMO is not other MMOs. In this MMO it is pretty clear that both Ice Staff and 1h and shield are tank weapons. So it's a fair game to ask to increase the dps of one if you're asking for the DPS increase for the other. And in both cases - if either one of them has the same dps - there's no reason not to use them, especially in pvp. They have more CC already - you can't add the same DPS as the weapons with no CC have.

Talking about staves - all staves create a difference of 8% damage. Frost staff can slow your target so it can barely reach you, in exchange, it has a little lower DPS which is made up by the time they can DPS. I really don't understand who expected that fire and frost will have the same DPS? It was pretty clear from the start that Ice will have CC and Fire will have more damage but less CC. That's a pretty basic idea of balancing them. Even in other games. Or in your understanding an Ice mage is like the Fire mage but the spells are blue? So then maybe you should be asking for a skin in the Crown store that will make your fire look like ice? Or are you not ready to trade your CC for DPS and want to have both? Then I think you should reevaluate and think about balance.

ArchMikem wrote: »

Not to mention people want to play as an Ice Mage for once instead of the exhausted Shock or Fire.

You too - answer the question above. What is an Ice Mage and how is it different from Shock or Fire mage?

VierulSquirrel wrote: »

When it comes to DPS I would like for you go to a skeleton test dummy and do 10 attempts of your best rotation with an inferno staff, then 10 more with an ice. You will see a difference, this difference with buffs in trials will only further their gap.
If I'm wrong and ice staff tanking is as good as you claim it be, please post a video of Vet Maw of Lorkhaj of you tanking either of the 3 main bosses. Let alone any other "difficult" content. It doesn't even have to be hard mode. And no, breaking the statue in cradle of shadows does not count.

Why do you think their DPS should be equal with all that CC that Ice has? As I asked above - is playing an Ice mage just a cosmetic thing for you?

The tests you keep suggesting in the thread are meaningless. Of course Fire will have more DPS. It should. Because Ice has - and always had - snares.

VierulSquirrel

Yes

Artis wrote: »

VierulSquirrel wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

andreasranasen wrote: »

Why would anyone vote no on this?

No one uses Ice Staffs right now. You get kicked from trial guilds for even thinking of slotting one.

Ice Staffs needs a dmg increase buff!

Because other staves are better, not because you can't complete with the ice staff.

I vote no because it will be OP. It already has that defensive bonus and you can block for magicka with it. If you give it damage and leave that thing - there will be no reason to choose. Especially in PvP. Even in PvE - why bother thinking which skill to put where and which staff to use on which bar, if you can just use ice staff and have ALL your damage increase AND be able to block better?

Ice staff is viable, just not optimal for dps. And still a sorc with Ice will probably outdps most other builds maybe even optimal builds like NB.

Are we gonna ask to make 1hand and sword viable (=optimal for you, looks like) for DPS?

They should remove the block passive since they want players to better manage their resources. And you should not be able to compare Sword and board to ice staff in terms of dps or tanking in any game. Other MMOs tanks deal damage through their class abilities and aoe taunts/debuffs. Not an ice staff.
Also a sorc may be able to out dps with an ice staff, with a pet. Which isn't always viable in dps situations. The taunt also makes it obsolete in its current state.

Well, the thread didn't say anything about removing any passives. If it did - either way 4% to all damage is a nobrainer. Right you at least have to think how to organize your skill bars and which staves to use.

What? Why wouldn't I? This MMO is not other MMOs. In this MMO it is pretty clear that both Ice Staff and 1h and shield are tank weapons. So it's a fair game to ask to increase the dps of one if you're asking for the DPS increase for the other. And in both cases - if either one of them has the same dps - there's no reason not to use them, especially in pvp. They have more CC already - you can't add the same DPS as the weapons with no CC have.

Talking about staves - all staves create a difference of 8% damage. Frost staff can slow your target so it can barely reach you, in exchange, it has a little lower DPS which is made up by the time they can DPS. I really don't understand who expected that fire and frost will have the same DPS? It was pretty clear from the start that Ice will have CC and Fire will have more damage but less CC. That's a pretty basic idea of balancing them. Even in other games. Or in your understanding an Ice mage is like the Fire mage but the spells are blue? So then maybe you should be asking for a skin in the Crown store that will make your fire look like ice? Or are you not ready to trade your CC for DPS and want to have both? Then I think you should reevaluate and think about balance.

ArchMikem wrote: »

Not to mention people want to play as an Ice Mage for once instead of the exhausted Shock or Fire.

You too - answer the question above. What is an Ice Mage and how is it different from Shock or Fire mage?

VierulSquirrel wrote: »

When it comes to DPS I would like for you go to a skeleton test dummy and do 10 attempts of your best rotation with an inferno staff, then 10 more with an ice. You will see a difference, this difference with buffs in trials will only further their gap.
If I'm wrong and ice staff tanking is as good as you claim it be, please post a video of Vet Maw of Lorkhaj of you tanking either of the 3 main bosses. Let alone any other "difficult" content. It doesn't even have to be hard mode. And no, breaking the statue in cradle of shadows does not count.

Why do you think their DPS should be equal with all that CC that Ice has? As I asked above - is playing an Ice mage just a cosmetic thing for you?

The tests you keep suggesting in the thread are meaningless. Of course Fire will have more DPS. It should. Because Ice has - and always had - snares.

I would like to point out the snares you talk about do not apply to bosses or elite adds. Yes it's fine for PvP or casual questers. Which is why I suggest they leave the snares. However they need to rework the passives in order for it to scale better in a PvE dps perspective. If it snares and can immobilize snared targets why would having am ultimate (immobilize enemies) which can already be done? I'm not sure you know what the CCs actually can be applied to. You will get target immune more than you imagine in the top right corner of your screen. (in PvE). Anything with a health bar more than what a players has. Will not get CC/snare from ice.
I would also like to point out you are trying to make an argument without offering any insight on how to balance out the ice staff. This is why developers rarely communicate with their players.

P.S The only way I have been able to snare a boss was with the Winterborn set, yes I used it (one time) in Vet Maw of Lorkhaj when proc sets could crit (for fun). However the dps you can pull with a perfect rotation is still lower than most if not all current magic set up. Way more now with the nerf to proc sets.

F7sus4

Yes

The main problem with Ice Staves is also the elemental special effect. Slowing down/snaring all enemies with Elemental Blockade means problems with stacking the trash (vSO pre-mantikora pack is good example). And no - you don't want to chain 20+ mobs only because Ice Blockade slowed them down outside of group AoE range.

This already was tested in our raid with few individuals trying to bring Ice Staves to life and the results were as described.

VierulSquirrel

Yes

F7sus4 wrote: »

The main problem with Ice Staves is also the elemental special effect. Slowing down/snaring all enemies with Elemental Blockade means problems with stacking the trash (vSO pre-mantikora pack is good example). And no - you don't want to chain 20+ mobs only because Ice Blockade slowed them down outside of group AoE range.

This already was tested in our raid with few individuals trying to bring Ice Staves to life and the results were as described.

I see what you mean and it is true, however it's only small adds. The conjurers don't get the snare but I see what you mean, even though all the adds throughout the rest of the trial that need focusing down are those that are immune to the snare. Plus there aren't many small adds outside of said example. It's also better to aoe on yourself and the stack while letting everything run in on that pull.

clocksstoppe

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Warden Class with its passives will probably be able to do more dmg with ice staff than any current magica class with inferno staff.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

Sinolai

Other - buff but in another way (or even nerf)

I have used ice staff tank a few times but usually I still have sword and board in the back bar, which I actually use more for blocking than the ice staff.

As much as I like the idea of having magicka based tanks, the forst staff was not very good way to introduce them. 2h weapon means you lose 1 set effect and the slows from ice staff passive ability also works terribly with tank theme that wants to draw attention and stack enemies around himself.
Conjure weapons or some other new skill line would have worked better. At the moment, a toggle option to turn the "tank mode" on or off would be nice although I wouldn't mind reworking the ice staff completely again. 4 % damage boost wouldn't hurt, although I think a CC/utility theme would fit it better. How about something like increases the duration of your stuns, slows, roots, debuffs and buffs by 2 sec? Maybe also duration of DoT spells like Wall of Elements, or Liquid lightning, if cast while frost staff equipped?

Izaki

Smepic wrote: »

Increasing damage done by 4% will not make ice staves viable, because they already are – it would simply make them better. I don't believe it's needed.

Ice Staves viable? Where? They really aren't.

Izaki

Good suggestion by the way!

Btw, Engulfing Flames is 10% more flame damage for the group not 8%

Silver_Strider

A better solution would be to revert the changes to Ice Staff that made it a tank weapon, create a new tank weapon for magic builds that doesn't rely on a long heavy attack animation to hold aggro and is actually comparable to 1h+shield as a viable tank weapon. Then, we separate the 3 Destruction staves into their own skill lines with their own skills and passives to make them all viable DPS tools.

The way Ice Staff is currently set up is impossible for it to be made a viable DPS tool.

Destruent

Yes

Silver_Strider wrote: »

A better solution would be to revert the changes to Ice Staff that made it a tank weapon, create a new tank weapon for magic builds that doesn't rely on a long heavy attack animation to hold aggro and is actually comparable to 1h+shield as a viable tank weapon. Then, we separate the 3 Destruction staves into their own skill lines with their own skills and passives to make them all viable DPS tools.

The way Ice Staff is currently set up is impossible for it to be made a viable DPS tool.

If you want to tank as magicka-build you can also use the undaunted taunt...it's there for a reason. It does exactly the same as the frost-staff...just better, faster and without any downsides...

edit: even frost-staffs are destruction-staffs, why should destruction staffs mitigate damage

VierulSquirrel

Yes

Take a look at my thread on how the ice staff can be changed so that it helps the people that want to tank with, as well as letting it do dps. However you won't get the tanking aspect unless you used certain Morphs ect. It's not strictly buffing the ice staff so much as making its pairing with ice sets, to bring it up to par with the counter elements.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4119529#Comment_4119529

P.s - please ignore the trolls

Tonturri

No

I'd rather they make it a better tank weapon. You've already got 2/3 of the staff types for good DPS. They even split 'em up into AoE and single target. Let the magicka tanks have their tank weapon.

VierulSquirrel

Yes

Tonturri wrote: »

I'd rather they make it a better tank weapon. You've already got 2/3 of the staff types for good DPS. They even split 'em up into AoE and single target. Let the magicka tanks have their tank weapon.

Check out my thread,it will help! Stave/staff tanks!
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4119529#Comment_4119529

Vaoh

Yes

Tonturri wrote: »

I'd rather they make it a better tank weapon. You've already got 2/3 of the staff types for good DPS. They even split 'em up into AoE and single target. Let the magicka tanks have their tank weapon.

Magicka tanking is a wierd concept that goes unused by anyone wanting to be effective. It exists solely for noobie players to unknowingly taunt bosses and wipe groups, only for tanks to get yelled at, turmoil to occur, and kicks/disbanding to follow.

In endgame PvE, Ice Staff Tanking is seen as nothing more than a complete joke.

If ZOS wanted to implement this (which no one asked for) they could have added in "One Hand and Rune", a datamined weapon skill line that never released...

Lastly, and most importantly, Ice Staff is a Destruction Staff, so the whole Ice Staff tanking concept is already strange and unfitting no matter how it is spinned. Destruction Staff active and passive skills are tailored to kill things, not tank.

Wardens would actually find extraordinarily benefit from Ice Staves if ZOS had the Ice Staff match its Destruction theme, as well as create the chance for players to effectively roleplay an Ice Mage.

Just my thoughts

idk

Other - buff but in another way (or even nerf)

@Vaoh

The ice staff is now a tanking weapon. It can be used for DPS but a dps player cannot do a heavy attack unless in PvP since that DPS would then be tanking the boss. It is what it is regardless of how effective it is for tanking.

Also, top builds do not use a fire staff on the front bar, they back bar it. They use a shock staff on the front bar to increase the damage of the AoE dots placed down. It has been that way since the damage buffs came out.

So, in other words, if you wanted to do ice damage back bar the ice staff and front bar a shock staff Then you would be able to heavy attack off the shock staff without issue and get a nice damage bonus to the ice WoE you have down.

BTW, I would have expected a 1H & rune would be a dps set for possibly melee magika dps. I have not seen any information that was data mined about the set so just a guess.

VierulSquirrel

Yes

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Vaoh

The ice staff is now a tanking weapon. It can be used for DPS but a dps player cannot do a heavy attack unless in PvP since that DPS would then be tanking the boss. It is what it is regardless of how effective it is for tanking.

Also, top builds do not use a fire staff on the front bar, they back bar it. They use a shock staff on the front bar to increase the damage of the AoE dots placed down. It has been that way since the damage buffs came out.

So, in other words, if you wanted to do ice damage back bar the ice staff and front bar a shock staff Then you would be able to heavy attack off the shock staff without issue and get a nice damage bonus to the ice WoE you have down.

BTW, I would have expected a 1H & rune would be a dps set for possibly melee magika dps. I have not seen any information that was data mined about the set so just a guess.

Moving the Taunt to elemental susceptibility will help the "tanks", buffing ice based sets and making the ice staff ult cost less like it was supposed to at first,will help PvE dps. The snares and immobilize can stay because they have no affect in end game , but still help PvP. That's all they need to do.
Minor main on Ice wall will also help the "tanks" and PvP

MrCray78

Other - buff but in another way (or even nerf)

Ice Staff Increase DoT Damage

xSkullfox

Other - buff but in another way (or even nerf)

2% single target damage
2% spell penetration
2% dot dmg

and remove the taunt

F7sus4

Yes

VierulSquirrel wrote: »

I see what you mean and it is true, however it's only small adds. The conjurers don't get the snare but I see what you mean, even though all the adds throughout the rest of the trial that need focusing down are those that are immune to the snare. Plus there aren't many small adds outside of said example. It's also better to aoe on yourself and the stack while letting everything run in on that pull.

You don't want any of the things I mentioned, especially in score runs. It would be best too see that in person to fully understand that Ice effects turn each trash pull into horrible randomfest. It's even more messy if only half of the trash group is affected and especially in raids where you have every spawn assigned to land in very specific target location/time with pixel precision. So the main line of the conclusion here is to maybe suggest changing Ice element "special effect". It already happened with Lightning and even though snare/slow down goes in line with Ice it would be best to put something actually beneficial.

dovakiin5574

Maybe

As someone who tanks, I honestly would prefer an AoE taunt skill over ice staff heavy attack.....

slumber_sandb16_ESO

Instead of making it a better DD weapon maybe make it a better tank weapon.

zZzleepyhead

No

Frost clench root makes up for the dps loss.

VierulSquirrel

Yes

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

As someone who tanks, I honestly would prefer an AoE taunt skill over ice staff heavy attack.....

Yes!

VierulSquirrel

Yes

You don't want any of the things I mentioned, especially in score runs. It would be best too see that in person to fully understand that Ice effects turn each trash pull into horrible randomfest. It's even more messy if only half of the trash group is affected and especially in raids where you have every spawn assigned to land in very specific target location/time with pixel precision. So the main line of the conclusion here is to maybe suggest changing Ice element "special effect". It already happened with Lightning and even though snare/slow down goes in line with Ice it would be best to put something actually beneficial.[/quote]

Randomfest? Why because the heavy attack taunt? Aoe snare that doesn't apply to the trolls, war priest, overchargers, fangs, or bosses? Or the few archers/ shaman that can get snared by a dk's eruption?
Perhaps minor maim with chilled/WoE? Oh wait it already does
With heavy attacks granting minor heroism? This would be nice, just move the Taunt to elemental susceptibility for faster taunts while debuffing
Lmk.
It would be nice to have an ice mage and pull a 172k for vSO

ADarklore

Yes

They should not have given the Frost staff a 'taunt' ability, especially now with Warden being 'frost-centric', we don't want to aggro away from our bear pet. This means Frost staff DPS have to forgo the points into the Tri-Focus passive just to avoid the taunt, which isn't right. They definitely need to stop making Frost a 'niche' weapon and give it the DPS potential of the other two Destro staves.