Mandatory PvP for Veteran PvE Content?

Rainwhisper

As I finally approach completing Tamriel Hero, I'm increasingly interested in tanking group dungeons. I've asked here and on other sites about the suggested builds for a PvE-only, Stam DK tank. Everyone, consistently, has listed PvP skills in their suggested build.

I can't believe that an experienced team like the ESO developers would require PvE'ers to participate in PvP as a gateway to doing PvE group content. Surely they know that those are generally two separate communities, and that many PvE'ers like me have less than zero interest in PvP. I avoided it in Ultima Online, and every game since.

Are there really no PvE-only players running veteran group content in the game?

Do the PvP skills simply make it easier, or is the consensus among the player base that the mechanics really were designed with the assumption that any player who would be participating would have PvP skills as well?

There's plenty to keep me occupied if I can't run veteran dungeons, but I'll be very disappointed if I don't have the option just because I'm a PvE-only player.

TheStealthDude

You can complete any pve content in the game without the skills from the Alliance War skill trees, so you are by no means "required" to do PvP. Many builds incorporate some of them because they are good skills (and why shouldn't they be?), but you don't need to follow someone else's build to do PvE. It only takes a few hours of PvP to get access to Vigor, Caltrops and Warhorn, if that long.

Iyas

You know that PvP players are forced to do PvE?

Liofa

Here is how this thread will go .

- PvP players will complain about Undaunted passives and how hard they are to get .
- Those who already got those skills will mention the old times because it was actually took ages to get those skills .
- And the small community that says ''enjoy every content'' .

I am in the second group . It will take 1 day of PvP . Just 1 day . I didn't want to PvP as well but I did it for my teammates , to make them stronger in dungeons and it took my much more than 1 day to get the skills I wanted . I know , it is not fun but just sacrifice 1 day of your gaming and it is over .

Note : There was a time Vigor wasn't considered a Stamina heal because it was so hard to get . Only few players had it . Imagine that . Now you can get it in few hours .

heystreethawk

Yes, certain things require PvP. Many more things-- almost every single thing in the game, including gear-- requires PvE.

The things that require PvP require a discrete amount of it; you make that amount of AP, and you are done.

The gear you need from PvE is RNG-based, and there is no guarantee that you will ever receive the gear you want, regardless of how much time you spend grinding for it.

Neither the PvP-dependent skills nor the PvE-dependent gear is necessary to enjoy the game, but the things you receive from PvP take much less time and are guaranteed to be given to you.

Best of your luck on the road to Tamriel Hero.

Rainwhisper

So @Liofa, do you think they built the game assuming that every player who did end-game content would have these "easy to get" PvP skills?

And perhaps I haven't communicated the degree to which I hate PvP. Were it me, I'd prefer to only play MMO's that had no PvP element whatsoever, but I've made peace with the reality that the market clearly can't sustain them. I'd like to at least be able to do all of the PvE content while continuing to pretend PvP doesn't exist.

I can't fathom why the developers would build things otherwise.

Rainwhisper

Iyas wrote: »

You know that PvP players are forced to do PvE?

I didn't. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me, since I think of PvP as a side activity from the main game. Do you not get xp from PvP?

NBrookus

Rainwhisper wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

You know that PvP players are forced to do PvE?

I didn't. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me, since I think of PvP as a side activity from the main game. Do you not get xp from PvP?

You get XP, but small amounts. And while you think of PVP as a side activity, there are many players who pretty much only PVP once they are leveled up.

You do not need to get PVP skills to do vet dungeons. Vigor is a super useful heal for stamina toons, especially those who don't want to run 2H, but it is not essential. Rapids is useful for everyone, but you get that just for doing the intro to Cyrodiil quest where you never encounter actual PvP.

However if you want the Tamriel Hero achievement, you HAVE to go into PvP land. The quests themselves are PvE, but they take place in towns that are campaign objectives. You may or may not encounter players there.

Rainwhisper

NBrookus wrote: »

However if you want the Tamriel Hero achievement, you HAVE to go into PvP land. The quests themselves are PvE, but they take place in towns that are campaign objectives. You may or may not encounter players there.

Yup. I've completed them all (delves, dolmens, and quests). I died a ton, but I was also pleasantly surprised by the number of people who, upon realizing I wasn't fighting back, left me alone.

The delves were particularly brutal because of the weird boss spawning mechanics.

RABIDxWOLVERINE

Rainwhisper wrote: »

So @Liofa, do you think they built the game assuming that every player who did end-game content would have these "easy to get" PvP skills?

And perhaps I haven't communicated the degree to which I hate PvP. Were it me, I'd prefer to only play MMO's that had no PvP element whatsoever, but I've made peace with the reality that the market clearly can't sustain them. I'd like to at least be able to do all of the PvE content while continuing to pretend PvP doesn't exist.

I can't fathom why the developers would build things otherwise.

You can do all the content you don't NEED vigor and caltrops but if you want those skills then you have to suck it up and PVP. You don't want to pvp use a skill like dragons blood or dark talons. You have options. You don't have to follow someone's build to a T.

Suck it up and PVP for 1-2 days all you have to do is find a somewhat large group through zone chat and even if you suck you will still get closer to the skills. If you don't want to PVP find similar skills that don't require PVP to obtain.

I hate to say it but I have to tell my 6 year old this quite often, stop whining.

smithist

Rainwhisper wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

You know that PvP players are forced to do PvE?

I didn't. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me, since I think of PvP as a side activity from the main game. Do you not get xp from PvP?

This is some impressive cognitive dissonance. So just because you think that, then it is so. It didn't occur to you that a PvPer could have just as easily made the inverse of your OP? Except they potentially feel compelled to endlessly farm something they don't like whereas you're merely forced to sacrifice part of an afternoon.

tldr move on with your life it's not a big deal

Derra

Rainwhisper wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

You know that PvP players are forced to do PvE?

I didn't. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me, since I think of PvP as a side activity from the main game. Do you not get xp from PvP?

Strange - the advertising prior to me buying this game strongly suggested pvp was the suggested endgame content.

Therefor i can hardly agree on pvp being a side activity. It was the games main selling point when it originally launched in PC.

Rainwhisper

smithist wrote: »

This is some impressive cognitive dissonance. So just because you think that, then it is so. It didn't occur to you that a PvPer could have just as easily made the inverse of your OP? Except they potentially feel compelled to endlessly farm something they don't like whereas you're merely forced to sacrifice part of an afternoon.

My impression is based, not on my preferences, but by the fact that PvP takes place in one zone, set apart from the rest of the game.

Zinaroth

Rainwhisper wrote: »

I can't believe that an experienced team like the ESO developers would require PvE'ers to participate in PvP as a gateway to doing PvE group content. Surely they know that those are generally two separate communities, and that many PvE'ers like me have less than zero interest in PvP.

Because I dunno? It's an MMORPG and the developers are catering to people who like all aspects of an MMORPG and are trying to make them intertwinable experiences? If you don't like a certain aspect of the game but it gives your characters an advtantage and you decided not to do it; is it then the fault of the developers for poor game design or is it your own fault for not being able to motivate yourself to achieve progress - despite the fact that developers clearly made a system that awards you in the end? This kind of self-entitlement is what leads developers to making games where you too easily achieve what you want, feel no sense of progression or commitment, and lose interest in the game. You don't like PvP and you decided that Vigor and Caltrops wasn't a good enough reward for your tank to warrent spending time to achieve it - that is your decision and not a flaw in the game design.

Entegre

Instead of writing in forums you can play in PvP, capture resources with your friends, think it as a dungeon and capture keeps as a trial. Leveling alliance war is Very easy now. HOWEVER PvP guys have to collect every book in PvE areas, do PvE dungeons for weeks, earn gold outside PvP because it is not rewarding as PvE.

WarpigFunk

i hardly ever pvp, but I pvpd enough to get warhorn on my healer, pvpd enough to get caltrops, and vigor on my stamsorc, and ill eventually go grab vigor for my dk tank. It is what it is. And really its not that bad... and for the record Ive tanked vet trials and vet dungeons without it. But its still something Id like to have.

2 weeks ago was a double AP event, i got 150k AP in about 2 hours... my stamsorc had vigor and caltrops in one afternoon sitting.

Waffennacht

My first thought was, "honestly what end game PvE player can't even participate in PvP?"

If anything the necessary reaction speeds in either end game PvE or PvP are the same, aka you better animation cancel.

You got this.

raj72616a

you don't have to pvp. just buy stones and woods to repair walls and doors. you can get vigor that way if you refuse to try pvp.

Valykc

Woeler.eu

Everything you need to know for tanking is there curiosity of @Woeler

smithist

Rainwhisper wrote: »

My impression is based, not on my preferences, but by the fact that PvP takes place in one zone, set apart from the rest of the game.

Kind of a cop out. If nothing else because comparing Cyrodill to any other single zone is super disingenuous. Plus landmass is a terrible metric because so much of the content in PvP is the interaction between players. You don't need space to populate with different bosses.

My main point though was that yours is the infinitely less sympathetic position. PvPers absolutely get the short straw here. Whining about a few hours of PvP is just a bad hill to die on.

Rainwhisper

Zinaroth wrote: »

Because I dunno? It's an MMORPG and the developers are catering to people who like all aspects of an MMORPG and are trying to make them intertwinable experiences? If you don't like a certain aspect of the game but it gives your characters an advtantage and you decided not to do it; is it then the fault of the developers for poor game design or is it your own fault for not being able to motivate yourself to achieve progress - despite the fact that developers clearly made a system that awards you in the end?

My point is that a PvE MMO and a PvP MMO are two different games. If you build a platformer, and then put turn-based strategy mechanics in it, players are going to get frustrated at your decision to make an irrelevant game mechanic a bottleneck to progress.

Rainwhisper

smithist wrote: »

Kind of a cop out. If nothing else because comparing Cyrodill to any other single zone is super disingenuous. Plus landmass is a terrible metric because so much of the content in PvP is the interaction between players. You don't need space to populate with different bosses.

We can use other metrics then. Number of words of writing. Types of interactions available (as in, whatever the PvP equivalent of quests are in terms of time sinks). Development resources involved. Gear specifically designed for PvP vs. PvE. Amount of lore influenced by and reflected in PvE vs. PvP content. Number of achievements. I think it's hard to argue that, content-wise, PvP is as big a part of the game as PvE is.

My main point though was that yours is the infinitely less sympathetic position. PvPers absolutely get the short straw here. Whining about a few hours of PvP is just a bad hill to die on.

I don't understand the PvP mindset at all. I genuinely don't get why a PvP-only player would prefer a world with a sophisticated lore and character-building dynamic over simply playing Overwatch. But, if that's the game they want to play, I'm fine with ZoS creating a means for them to stay in Cyrodiil all the time. I didn't know they hadn't.

Nonetheless, while this is hardly a hill on which to die for me, and rather simply an observation on the forums for a game I play, I do think it's bad design to put in any kind of progression for PvE that tacitly or explicitly forces players to PvP. PvE and PvP are completely different games.

DHale

You don't have to pvp to get vigor. I can't imagine why you would not want to but if you really don't want to. Take 45 k gold go buy wall repair kits and go to each keep you faction owns and repair walls and posterns. Go to the next campaign and repeat. Thank you very much.

phillyproduct

This man just trolled yall stop feeding him

/thread

Magdalina

Rainwhisper wrote: »

So @Liofa, do you think they built the game assuming that every player who did end-game content would have these "easy to get" PvP skills?

And perhaps I haven't communicated the degree to which I hate PvP. Were it me, I'd prefer to only play MMO's that had no PvP element whatsoever, but I've made peace with the reality that the market clearly can't sustain them. I'd like to at least be able to do all of the PvE content while continuing to pretend PvP doesn't exist.

I can't fathom why the developers would build things otherwise.

Actually it'd seem Zenimax original idea was to try to mix both. I actually find it pretty smart - they knew they'd get the solo pve crowd so they placed those cities and delves in Cyrodiil that feature long rides between them to possibly make people run into PvP in one way or the other and then maybe - just maybe - like it. The subsequent release of Imperial City(which is a really cool and underrated dlc imo) and the presence/addition of cool, pve-useful skills in Alliance War skill trees are steps on the same route.

Personally I really enjoy the mix of PvE and PvP that, say, IC is, I think it's awesome. Unfortunately it appears that most of the playerbase are incapable of taking different points of view into consideration and trying to enjoy something different to their usual playstyle(this goes for both the crybaby PvE crowd who can't stand the idea of another player being able to attack them without their consent thus forcing them to pay attention to their surroundings and the diehard PvP crowd who hate the thought of a monster interfering with their PvP/someone trying to perform PvE activities within 500 m from them), and even more unfortunately ZOS didn't have the backbone to stand their ground and keep trying to get more people interested in stuff like IC by giving them more incentive and possibly some sort of mixed pve/pvp tasks etc; I think that's most of the reason for them scrapping open world pvp and a lot of other changes.

That said, they still haven't entirely removed all incentive for a PvE-er to go to Cyrodiil and I think it's *good*. I know quite a few people who very reluctantly went there for skills/achievements only and ended up actually liking it and staying. Incentivising players to try put new/different things is NOT a bad thing. They've also lowered the ap needed and buffed the ap gains so much it's really not hard to get those skills even if you totally can't stand pvp. Besides, you get ap for doing the towns' quests now, so that's one way to get ap without actually pvping. Another would be quickly flipping resources and getting away before anyone shows up, unless there's action going on nearby you'd only have to fights npcs that way. Or you could actually try to pvp and see how that goes.

Woeler

Sorry, but you will have to get those skills. A dk tank without Vigor, Speedbuff and especially warhorn is not an effective tank.

And you can literally get all these skills in one night. If you don't want to spend one night on getting these skills I don't see why you should be doing endgame content.

Zvorgin

Rainwhisper wrote: »

So @Liofa, do you think they built the game assuming that every player who did end-game content would have these "easy to get" PvP skills?

And perhaps I haven't communicated the degree to which I hate PvP. Were it me, I'd prefer to only play MMO's that had no PvP element whatsoever, but I've made peace with the reality that the market clearly can't sustain them. I'd like to at least be able to do all of the PvE content while continuing to pretend PvP doesn't exist.

I can't fathom why the developers would build things otherwise.

I agree, the game should cater 100% to the preference of players who really hate certain parts.

Stannum

Rainwhisper wrote: »

As I finally approach completing Tamriel Hero, I'm increasingly interested in tanking group dungeons. I've asked here and on other sites about the suggested builds for a PvE-only, Stam DK tank. Everyone, consistently, has listed PvP skills in their suggested build.

I can't believe that an experienced team like the ESO developers would require PvE'ers to participate in PvP as a gateway to doing PvE group content. Surely they know that those are generally two separate communities, and that many PvE'ers like me have less than zero interest in PvP. I avoided it in Ultima Online, and every game since.

Are there really no PvE-only players running veteran group content in the game?

Do the PvP skills simply make it easier, or is the consensus among the player base that the mechanics really were designed with the assumption that any player who would be participating would have PvP skills as well?

There's plenty to keep me occupied if I can't run veteran dungeons, but I'll be very disappointed if I don't have the option just because I'm a PvE-only player.

There are no "must have" PvP skills for tank in PvE. The only skill that will be very appricieted by the group is warhorn (as it rises group DPS) but you still can tank without it and spam "short" ulties like DB or Shooting Star.

heystreethawk

Rainwhisper wrote: »

smithist wrote: »

Kind of a cop out. If nothing else because comparing Cyrodill to any other single zone is super disingenuous. Plus landmass is a terrible metric because so much of the content in PvP is the interaction between players. You don't need space to populate with different bosses.

We can use other metrics then.

Sounds good!

Number of words of writing.

Why would that be an effective metric here? Cyrodiil is a dynamic, objective-oriented map designed around the concepts of capturing and defending stationary objectives and defeating other players in combat. Why would the amount of writing effectively measure the resources allocated to designing this part of the game, or the intended importance of this part of the game? I love reading; in fact, I receive checks in the mail for writing about reading. I do not want to spend very much time in Cyrodiil reading things. There are battles to be fought, and keeps to be captured and defended.

Types of interactions available (as in, whatever the PvP equivalent of quests are in terms of time sinks).

I'm not sure I want to unpack this one. Sir, you are a fish out of water.

Development resources involved.

This is not going to be possible for us, as players, to measure. And although we tend to complain about PvP being neglected in terms of overall attention and upkeep from the developers, I am personally of the impression that Cyrodiil requires a pretty substantial amount of investment from ZoS.

Also, if you ask any PvE'er in the process of complaining about a nerf, they are likely to tell you that every single balance adjustment in the game is designed around PvP. I think that's an overstatement, I think that's an embellishment reflected in the general perception that PvP gets the shaft a lot, but I can also see the logic that concerns about balance are more pressing when applied to Cyrodiil, and I would probably agree that the majority of skill and equipment adjustments prioritize the performance of said skills and equipment in a PvP environment.

Gear specifically designed for PvP vs. PvE.

I just did a quick scan of the sets listed on http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Sets , and I counted 98 sets (including monster helms and crafted sets) whose existence can only be rationalized by the developers saying, out loud, "I think someone would use this in PvP."

This tally ignores sets such as Willpower and Agility, because although they are obtained in the Imperial City, they offer across-the-board stat increases that benefit PvE and PvP setups alike. PvE is a numbers game, when you get right down to it. You want the DPS to put out the most damage, you want the tanks to absorb the most damage (and provide some utility), you want the healers to put out the most heals (and provide some utility).

The dynamic nature of PvP encounters and group composition, the wide variety of potential gameplay and strategic decisions inherent to Cyrodiil, allows for an estimated 98 unique sets that (REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT I WOULD WANT SOMEONE ON MY TEAM RUNNING THEM) could only be considered useful in PvP. You would run them in PvE and someone would say: that is insane. Why are you running that. Who are you going to heal debuff here? Bogdan the Nightflame? Why do your light attacks need to do extra damage against shields? Are you going for a world record against whatever that boss in Arx Corinium is called?

Ninety-eight sets, minimum, clearly intended for usage in PvP.

Again, I'm not weighing the PvP specific sets for viability (although I'd estimate that 40-60 of them could be worn pretty well in a specific role, including both solo play and group play), but let's consider how many possible sets would be reasonable for any given role to wear in PvE. Between Magicka Tanks, Stamina Tanks, Magicka DPS, Stamina DPS, and healers, how many sets would be reasonable to wear in a PvE setting? What is your estimation there?

Amount of lore influenced by and reflected in PvE vs. PvP content.

All of Cyrodiil? Anything that has ever had to do with Cyrodiil? The fact that you choose a faction in the beginning of the game, and that faction has a specific storyline frequently referencing and drawing upon the present war in Cyrodiil?

Number of achievements.

65 achievements, and 50 skill points, but I think this is a foolhardy metric. Then again, you are working very hard at acquiring Tamriel Hero atm.

I think it's hard to argue that, content-wise, PvP is as big a part of the game as PvE is.

Okay. I think it's insane to argue that it isn't.

I don't understand the PvP mindset at all.

That much is evident.

Rainwhisper

Magdalina wrote: »

Actually it'd seem Zenimax original idea was to try to mix both. I actually find it pretty smart - they knew they'd get the solo pve crowd so they placed those cities and delves in Cyrodiil a D feature long rides between them to possibly make people run into PvP in one way or the other and then maybe - just maybe - like it. The subsequent release of Imperial City(which is a really cool and underrated dlc imo) and the presence/addition of cool, pve-useful skills in Alliance War skill trees are steps on the same route.

Personally I really enjoy the mix of PvE and PvP that, say, IC is, I think it's awesome. Unfortunately it appears that most of the playerbase are incapable of taking different points of view into consideration and trying to enjoy something different to their usual playstyle(this goes for both the crybaby PvE crowd who can't stand the idea of another player being able to attack them without their consent thus forcing them to pay attention to their surroundings and the diehard PvP crowd who hate the thought of a monster interfering with their PvP/someone trying to perform PvE activities within 500 m from them)...

Thanks very much for the thoughtful reply. I would only add from my perspective that many of us who are PvE-only genuinely think that PvP is an entirely different game, and one we have no interest in. We want to navigate and explore the game world, and we want there to be some challenges to doing so, but not the constant fighting and high risk of death that comes from competing against other players. To me, that feels like an FPS, not an RPG. It's not that I refuse to try it and enjoy it, it's that over 20 years of online MMO's, dating back to MUD's, tells me that I very much, absolutely, unequivocally, under no circumstances enjoy it.

I don't want to kill another player, ever, for any reason. When I was doing the PvE content in Cyrodiil for Tamriel Hero (which, you're right, did generate a surprising amount of AP), I would simply bow or wave while they killed me. I'd rather run back than engage in PvP.

Also, I think the long history of animosity between PvE and PvP players in MMO's is hard to overlook when it comes to designing a game. If you build a game that requires both for advancement in either, you're going to trigger visceral reactions from players in both camps.

Nonetheless, I see your point, but I'm glad that ZOS went the direction it did.

DocFrost72

I'd rather farm warhorn than caltrops. Would only take me 2 hours for the best support ult currently in the game.

Unless you need caltrops? In which case I remind you that some stam DPS use it, and only one caltrops will count, so be mindful of that. Or did you mean vigor? To be totally honest, you'd get it pretty fast flipping resources.