Mandatory PvP for Veteran PvE Content?

timidobserver

Yeh you really want warhorn as a tank. Just go in during primetime and fire siege at people for half an hour.

Rainwhisper

Woeler wrote: »

And you can literally get all these skills in one night. If you don't want to spend one night on getting these skills I don't see why you should be doing endgame content.

To be clear, I don't want to spend one minute getting those skills if doing so requires that I PvP. It's not the time I object to. It's the forced PvP.

heystreethawk

Rainwhisper wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Actually it'd seem Zenimax original idea was to try to mix both. I actually find it pretty smart - they knew they'd get the solo pve crowd so they placed those cities and delves in Cyrodiil a D feature long rides between them to possibly make people run into PvP in one way or the other and then maybe - just maybe - like it. The subsequent release of Imperial City(which is a really cool and underrated dlc imo) and the presence/addition of cool, pve-useful skills in Alliance War skill trees are steps on the same route.

Personally I really enjoy the mix of PvE and PvP that, say, IC is, I think it's awesome. Unfortunately it appears that most of the playerbase are incapable of taking different points of view into consideration and trying to enjoy something different to their usual playstyle(this goes for both the crybaby PvE crowd who can't stand the idea of another player being able to attack them without their consent thus forcing them to pay attention to their surroundings and the diehard PvP crowd who hate the thought of a monster interfering with their PvP/someone trying to perform PvE activities within 500 m from them)...

Thanks very much for the thoughtful reply. I would only add from my perspective that many of us who are PvE-only genuinely think that PvP is an entirely different game, and one we have no interest in. We want to navigate and explore the game world, and we want there to be some challenges to doing so, but not the constant fighting and high risk of death that comes from competing against other players. To me, that feels like an FPS, not an RPG. It's not that I refuse to try it and enjoy it, it's that over 20 years of online MMO's, dating back to MUD's, tells me that I very much, absolutely, unequivocally, under no circumstances enjoy it.

I don't want to kill another player, ever, for any reason. When I was doing the PvE content in Cyrodiil for Tamriel Hero (which, you're right, did generate a surprising amount of AP), I would simply bow or wave while they killed me. I'd rather run back than engage in PvP.

Also, I think the long history of animosity between PvE and PvP players in MMO's is hard to overlook when it comes to designing a game. If you build a game that requires both for advancement in either, you're going to trigger visceral reactions from players in both camps.

Nonetheless, I see your point, but I'm glad that ZOS went the direction it did.

And thank you for not taking offense at my passion for the subject! I can definitely understand the traditional MMO divide here; for example, while I know that there was some extraordinary intentional PvP in Ultima Online, I also know that the system at large was sort of clumsily integrated in a lot of regards that caused people unnecessary grief. I've had some experience with competitive PvP in other genres, going back to Quake and Warcraft, but I never enjoyed the way it was implemented in RPGs prior to ESO. It's pretty cleanly delineated, for one, and the combat system in ESO is so fun and visceral that I think it lends itself well to the competitive component.

I also kinda like having to get things from PvE, though maybe that's just habit; I like rounding up mats to make potions for my guild, I like reading about all the different sets. I like farming for certain gear up to a point, because these systems support one another, give one another meaning. Maybe I wouldn't like doing a dungeon over and over for a monster helm if I didn't look forward to using it in PvP so much! I definitely didn't go out of my way to get the "best" stuff in Morrowind, or Skyrim, or the Fallout games. Likewise, maybe you won't outright enjoy capturing keeps with your allies to get Vigor, but I think you'll really look forward to getting it, and I think you'll appreciate every step that gets you closer to that goal.

(One last addendum: my ESO PvP experience is mostly group play. I love working with my team, I love helping them, I love the satisfaction when we're able to pull off incredible things. So for me, it's not necessarily "rar! Kill everything!", and we do our best not to mess with people who are clearly running around doing quests or whatever else by themselves. There's a sense of sportsmanship in this game, it's not universal, but it's there and I think it's absolutely a byproduct of the way that ZoS integrated the PvP and PvE dynamics.)

grannas211

Rainwhisper wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

And you can literally get all these skills in one night. If you don't want to spend one night on getting these skills I don't see why you should be doing endgame content.

To be clear, I don't want to spend one minute getting those skills if doing so requires that I PvP. It's not the time I object to. It's the forced PvP.

You're not forced to though. You want the skills, you have to do whats required to get those. Many many people dont want to run x dungeon for the 100th time just to get more resources for running 5-1-1. Its much faster to get vigor than it is to max out undaunted.

Rainwhisper

heystreethawk wrote: »

Rainwhisper wrote: »

I don't understand the PvP mindset at all.

That much is evident.

At the end of the day, that's what it comes down to. Hence, why your post is extraordinarily helpful to me, because it causes me to realize that there's much more to PvP in the game than I realized. (It also makes me sad, for that reason, because it causes me to fear that more development resources will go to make PvP a larger part of the game).

If nothing else, all of this is illustrative of just how different various players' experience of the game can be. I played for two years without even knowing that there were skill lines specifically associated with PvP. I saw them pop up when I finally took my Champ-level 200 to Cyrodiil to start the PvE content for Tamriel Hero. I genuinely thought of PvP as something some players did to amuse themselves in the one zone set aside for a casual diversion.

Clearly PvP is much more central to the game for a significant portion of the player base. I do wish the firewall between the two playstyles - which, again, I think of as essentially separate games - were more absolute. But, reading your comments, I think I should be grateful that it is as strong as it is.

Rainwhisper

heystreethawk wrote: »

And thank you for not taking offense at my passion for the subject!

Absolutely. I never take offense to thoughtfully-articulated views, even (especially) when they're different from mine.

Likewise, maybe you won't outright enjoy capturing keeps with your allies to get Vigor, but I think you'll really look forward to getting it, and I think you'll appreciate every step that gets you closer to that goal.

That makes sense.

So for me, it's not necessarily "rar! Kill everything!", and we do our best not to mess with people who are clearly running around doing quests or whatever else by themselves. There's a sense of sportsmanship in this game, it's not universal, but it's there and I think it's absolutely a byproduct of the way that ZoS integrated the PvP and PvE dynamics.)

That may very well have been me, running alone from place to place, so thanks! I did notice that most folks left me alone when they realized I was just there to do PvE content.

Draxys

looool

Xvorg

Rainwhisper wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

You know that PvP players are forced to do PvE?

I didn't. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me, since I think of PvP as a side activity from the main game. Do you not get xp from PvP?

I have 2 words that will help you (a lot)

Imperial City. You can grind both, PVP skills and PVE while in there

Rainwhisper

heystreethawk wrote: »

...I know that there was some extraordinary intentional PvP in Ultima Online, I also know that the system at large was sort of clumsily integrated in a lot of regards that caused people unnecessary grief...

Did you play UO? It was awful in the early days. Everyone had invisibility maxed so that we could safely use our banks without being killed or pickpocketed.

Thinking of this reminded me of a point that I readily concede. PvP'ers often assert that we carebears don't want the challenge of PvP. Frankly, I agree. I don't mind having to kill monsters to get from point A to point B, but I don't want the high level of risk and nuisance associated with someone who has an equal or greater chance of killing me, over and over again, between me and a quest objective. I am a causal player who simply enjoys exploring and reading the quests.

Xvorg

grannas211 wrote: »

Rainwhisper wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

And you can literally get all these skills in one night. If you don't want to spend one night on getting these skills I don't see why you should be doing endgame content.

To be clear, I don't want to spend one minute getting those skills if doing so requires that I PvP. It's not the time I object to. It's the forced PvP.

You're not forced to though. You want the skills, you have to do whats required to get those. Many many people dont want to run x dungeon for the 100th time just to get more resources for running 5-1-1. Its much faster to get vigor than it is to max out undaunted.

Actually I don't like to PvE in this game, so none of my toons have reached beyond level 5 undauted.

Oompuh

Tell me more how ZOS is forcing you to play a game for a skill.

Don't want to pvp, you're not gonna be end game. Don't want to pve, you're not gonna be end game.

Zulur

One of the main design philosophies on Bethesda games is letting the players experience the games the way they want to. This has been stated by devs many times. Unfortunately Zenimax forgot or ignored this principle. They could have made this game in a way where pvp and pve are their own thing. Pvp players won’t have do pve at all in wise versa. Pvp players get their undaunted skills by doing some pvp related tasks and pve players get their Alliance skills by doing pve stuff. Skill points that are in pve and pvp could be purchased… Why must there be only one way to get x? Specially in a game that brought a lot of people into to this game who haven’t ever played mmo’s.

I started to level my Templar tank and pretty much all builds use those pvp abilities and now I’m facing the same issue where I have no motivation/will to do pvp but if I want to be as effective tank as possible, I have to get those “must” skills. I might go there for a day or two to get those skills but I understand those who don’t.

Greydir

You can get those skills without ever attacking a Player, it will just cost you lots of time and money.

You get the AP you need for leveling the PvP Skilltree by repairing Walls and Gates. So investing in repair materials and traveling to any keep that was under siege not to long ago can help.

To be marginaly faster and only fight NPCs would be to go towards an enemy keep and solo the ressources. most of the time you will not run into another player, and you can get the AP for turning around those resources

The last option is to complete the Scout missions. To do those, you only need to accept the mission, ride towards the specified location and return.

All those options theoreticly allow you to get your AP without ever killing another player. They are just a very ineffective way of doing so.

Last: If you have your eyes set on dungeon content, than Warhorn might be an effective ultimate but most content can be completed without it. If you have an understanding group to do it, it should not be a Problem.
I would strongly advise against vet Trials though, because the warhorn buff is something vital to trials.

KingYogi415

Back in the day vigor took around 800k so to unlock. And you could not just Zerg keep for it, O-ticks where like 1k.

clocksstoppe

You aren't forced to pvp. Go ahead and play without horn/vigor/caltrops. Problem solved.

VaranisArano

Guys? Thread Necro from March 2017. Make a new one if you want to complain about "forced" PVP.
Don't encourage Mannimarco.

pelle412

I think this debate is meaningless. The Alliance War skills will not change. You _can_ do veteran dungeons without them. Unfortunately, not many raid leaders will let you tank their trials without warhorn. If you want it, go get it. Many here have explained multiple ways to get those skills. If you don't want to, then don't get them.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

I use zero PvP skills on my DK tank. Though guard is a good one to have IF you feel like it.

AverageJo3Gam3r

After the next update it will take like four BGs to unlock warhorn. Six for vigor. Less than 15 for caltrops. That's 1-4 hours of time.

Minalan

Rainwhisper wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

You know that PvP players are forced to do PvE?

I didn't. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me, since I think of PvP as a side activity from the main game. Do you not get xp from PvP?

We don’t get the good dungeon sets, monster items, perfected weapons, or master staves from PVP. I’d rather not PVE at all given the choice, but I don’t. They haven’t really made any good ‘PvP only’ unique gear sets that you can’t just buy off a vendor.

Enter Cyrodiil, join a group, run with a zerg. Heal people. Fix walls. Defend keeps with hot oil. Res fallen comrades. You might actually enjoy it and make some friends there.

Asardes

Absolutely:
- stamina chars should have vigor
- stamina DDs should have caltrops as well
- tanks and healers should have warhorn, barrier, purge
I PvP on all my chars until I reach AvA 10, so about AR 13 (Sergeant grade 1)

This may be an old thread but it's still relevant.

itsfatbass

If you enjoy tanking as you say, then you will love the benefits of not only Aggressive Horn but other assault and support abilities as well. While they arent required, they certainly make your life easier as a tank, let alone the rest of your group.

MyrddinEmrys

PvP should be removed from ESO entirely.

Danksta

MyrddinEmrys wrote: »

PvP should be removed from ESO entirely.

Well that's mighty selfless of you...

Integral1900

I can’t pvp, I have a profound psychological condition that renders it an unacceptable trigger/risk. The pve isn’t an issue as I’m not competing with people, in groups I’m working to a goal, I will for example I always farm materials in quiet spots and I will never race you to a node. But I’ve got through everything there is otherwise, would it theoretically make things easier... yes... is it nessesary, well no, it isn’t. ZOS won’t stop trying to get one side of the fence to go to the other but it remains a choice

BlazingDynamo

Fyi if you went into Cyrodiil and pvp'd instead of coming to the forums to complain you'd have your skills already..

Vyle_Byte

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Fyi if you went into Cyrodiil and pvp'd instead of coming to the forums to complain you'd have your skills already..

FYI this thread is from March of 2017 AND the OP hasnt been around since November so you are literally talkin to no one lol!

Curious if dude ever got his Tamriel Hero 'chieve.

BlazingDynamo

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Fyi if you went into Cyrodiil and pvp'd instead of coming to the forums to complain you'd have your skills already..

FYI this thread is from March of 2017 AND the OP hasnt been around since November so you are literally talkin to no one lol!

Curious if dude ever got his Tamriel Hero 'chieve.

I'm more curious if he got his skills or not

The_Brosteen

Rainwhisper wrote: »

As I finally approach completing Tamriel Hero, I'm increasingly interested in tanking group dungeons. I've asked here and on other sites about the suggested builds for a PvE-only, Stam DK tank. Everyone, consistently, has listed PvP skills in their suggested build.

I can't believe that an experienced team like the ESO developers would require PvE'ers to participate in PvP as a gateway to doing PvE group content. Surely they know that those are generally two separate communities, and that many PvE'ers like me have less than zero interest in PvP. I avoided it in Ultima Online, and every game since.

Are there really no PvE-only players running veteran group content in the game?

Do the PvP skills simply make it easier, or is the consensus among the player base that the mechanics really were designed with the assumption that any player who would be participating would have PvP skills as well?

There's plenty to keep me occupied if I can't run veteran dungeons, but I'll be very disappointed if I don't have the option just because I'm a PvE-only player.

WTT assault/support lvl 6 for undaunted lvl 10

idk

necro thread