Anyone else think the thieves guild Heists are bull carp?

Cryptical

I don't know about anyone else, but my benchmark for everything of a sneaky undetected thief type of challenge is based on the first and second games of the Thief series, made by looking glass and eidos. that would be Thief - the dark project, and Thief - the metal age.

Large open world areas populated by guards that you have to navigate through, just like eso.

Complications to the maps, just like eso.

Varying levels of difficulty making the challenge harder, just like eso.

But the number one difference between the two approaches to 'sneaky sneaky snatch the loot' thieving between eso and the thief series is that time limit. That time limit being placed in a position of priority over stealth means that this "Thieves guild heist" STOPS being about thieving and becomes first and foremost about running the area as a race against time.

Don't believe me? Simple fact - it's better to be seen and make it back to Fa'ren-dar within the time limit than it is to remain undetected and go beyond the time. Putting the time limit as priority gives eso's "thieving" all the class of a smash and grab - low class thieving.

A time limit that spurs a player into aggressive play would have been more in tune with the fighters guild dailies, but we can spend 12 hours slogging through 3 dolmens on a turtle-safe non-aggressive tank capable of no more than 3 dps... But rather than use a timer to cattle prod people doing a fighter guild daily into fighting harder, the eso thieves guild developers put a timer onto a person whose first principle would otherwise be "Do Not Act Rashly".

Wrongheaded, just like the developers who tried to include more hack-and-slash into Thief 3. T2 Metal Age had people making new levels and mods for a DECADE even though it had like 8 bit Nintendo graphics.

These thieves guild heists, they are bull carp. The crude smash-n-grab of the heists compares to actual thieving gameplay in much the same way that a McDonald cheeseburger compared to a steak in any sit-down service restaurant. And in my opinion, it stems from that timer that starts ticking away, prodding me to stop doing actual thieving gameplay and instead act like a reckless smash-n-grab uncouth savage.

I'll still be grinding those heists out during the event, but I look at them each time the way you would look at a McDonald cheeseburger when you really want steak.

DeadlyRecluse

It's hard to compare the two--stealth in ESO is incredibly simplistic and reductive. It's hard to make compelling and challenging environments within ESO stealth mechanics, especially given the incredibly simple NPC pathing out of combat.

Skayaq

You are aware that you lose a massive amount of time when you are detected right?
And quite frankly I can't remember the last time I failed to complete a heist in time using a stealthy approach.

Cryptical

The expenditure of stam while sneaking, plus the circle of detection around those lanterns, could do quite a bit to push people around the map in a very challenging way. It could be used to stress a character into leveling alchemy and provisioning for regen and potions.

But that timer means it's always better for someone to just go YOLO and run through a room in order to make the time limit rather than play the puzzle of crossing that crowded room unseen.

It's a cheeseburger, when the eso stealth mechanics CAN be capable of a steak.

Doctordarkspawn

Oh yeah. Their bull.

There are several spots where you are guarenteed to be seen and you cannot assasinate guards. It's bull.

SydneyGrey

The time limit is impossible for me. Literally impossible. Probably not impossible for every character, but it definitely is for me, with my Breton sorceror build and heavy armor. It's a joke with me now.

Cat dude: "Make it back before the time limit and you'll earn fabulous prizes!"
Me: "LIAR!!! LIAR!!! I HATES YOU FOREVER" *Punches cat in his furry jaw*

AFrostWolf

I lost out on one the other day by 11 seconds. The stupid boss guy was standing right in front of the exit so time ran out.


I agree. There is a time limit for stealing, which makes it more like a smash and grab, and no time limit for the murder one which also allows you to be seen. I'd rather like the one where you can only be seen a few times, since after all I'm trying to not get caught in the first place.

Rygonix

The only thing I tend not to like about heists is the lantern-bearers, which is a sentiment I am sure is shared by many. But the specific reason is because their "reveal radius" sometimes is hard to determine, mostly because it is only identified as a simple blue ring several yards around them that is obscured by debris.

In the thick of things I often misjudge that radius then suddenly I have two reveal penalties against me, pretty much ruining my heist. In other words, in crowded or junk-filled areas those lantern bearers are your worst enemy, but for a reason I don't feel is necessary.

rustic_potato

Yeh you need to outfit your character specifically for those. Pretty much how raiders and PVPers fit their characters for those events.

Step 1: become a vamp - Dark Stalker is OP removes sneak move speed penalty.
Step 2: 5pc Night Mother's Embrace and 5pc Night Terror, (stealthy race is a bonus) u can sneak and stand right in front of the non- torch NPCs and still not get detected. Perfect example of Hide in plain sight. lol

on my khajit with this setup only thing I had to avoid was to literally bump into NPCs there was no other way I get detected.

You need to work for your reward. The timer on the heists ensure that you don't spend eternity in there. It is perfect. L2P.

sumisu1

very bull carp indeed

SydneyGrey

rustic_potato wrote: »

Yeh you need to outfit your character specifically for those. Pretty much how raiders and PVPers fit their characters for those events.
Step 1: become a vamp - Dark Stalker is OP removes sneak move speed penalty.
Step 2: 5pc Night Mother's Embrace and 5pc Night Terror, (stealthy race is a bonus) u can sneak and stand right in front of the non- torch NPCs and still not get detected. Perfect example of Hide in plain sight. lol

I really, really need to keep a change of armor specifically for these heists. I'd have to buy more bank space for it, though.

tenpeir

The thieves heists are quite easy, I often make it through with 3 to 4 minutes to spare.

A few things that help with the process use all medium armour (any will do), making use of the medium passives. Also use three night terror jewellery, getting the 2m reduced detection bonus. Just remember to change back when you complete the job.

Also get the legerdemain skills, especially improved hiding and locksmith. It is an easy line to level up with the added bonus of making money.

The chests are always in the same places so perhaps on one heist just explore the map, finding all the chest, the small alcoves that you can duck into and the secret passages.

Take advantage of walls, partitions and large rocks which will hide you from detection when you are forced out of stealth. The one with three daedric chests has one where you can bypass the lookout by walking behind an outcrop of rocks.

Use mini maps so you do not waste time looking at your main map.

good luck

Rohamad_Ali

I think they are for non Nightblades . A good nightblade can complete them in time , other classes , not so much . Adjusting the time for other classes would be an improvement or allowing invisibility pots to elude lantern guards . They are completely class biased on the timer .

heaven13

I agree. With all of this. I run 5 piece Night's Silence and 3 piece Night Terror (same that I use for sacraments). For RP purposes, I won't become a vampire, nor will I change my race just to complete these. It certainly does feel more like a smash and grab. A timer like this would actually be more appropriate on sacraments, IMO, because bodies piling up tend to arouse suspicion (especially if they stayed dead, lol). In heists, time should be a lot less important than remaining undetected.

However, I discovered that you can abandon the quest and restart it as many times as you want. I think I kept redoing Hideaway for over four hours today, for various reasons. I once was spotted by a lantern dude when I was a level beneath him, crouched, in my sneaky sneaky gear. A few times, I restarted the quest too soon, and the boss was just chilling in the entrance making it near impossible to get past. Then, on a perfect run with just under a minute left, boss spotted me escaping, killed my timer, and chased me all the way back to Fa'ren dar so I couldn't interact with him, making it an abandon or die choice. I went with the former.

I finally got it. I was so darn proud of myself. Opened my double loot parcels with barely contained glee and discovered I had received two of the same exact motif. Couldn't even be mad. That was grade A trolling from RNGesus so I had a laugh at my own expense and then traded the duplicate.

Nerouyn

I'm not really into thieving except that it's the only viable means of finding recipes. But I've looked at the heists with these double rewards going.

I would think the bigger problem would be the small number of maps. I would find it unbearably repetitive. At least with other PvE content the gameworld is so huge you can do a different kind of daily every day.

SaRuZ

The fact that you can't blade-of-woe them without getting time shaved is incredibly vain on ZoS end.
Pathetic at best.

SFDB

rustic_potato wrote: »

Yeh you need to outfit your character specifically for those. Pretty much how raiders and PVPers fit their characters for those events.

Step 1: become a vamp - Dark Stalker is OP removes sneak move speed penalty.
Step 2: 5pc Night Mother's Embrace and 5pc Night Terror, (stealthy race is a bonus) u can sneak and stand right in front of the non- torch NPCs and still not get detected. Perfect example of Hide in plain sight. lol

on my khajit with this setup only thing I had to avoid was to literally bump into NPCs there was no other way I get detected.

You need to work for your reward. The timer on the heists ensure that you don't spend eternity in there. It is perfect. L2P.

Actually you only need 3 pc Night Terror for the stealth bonus, so I just keep a set of five non-monster pieces of Night Mother and a three piece of Night Terror jewelry and throw them on for situations like heists. Makes it easy to swap between the two sets that way.

Once you get that, OP, it's much easier. My main is an Altmer Magicka Sorcerer, as non-stealthy as you can get, and while knowing the dungeon's quirks helps, I haven't failed to get the bonus on a dungeon the last ten or so times thanks largely to this and some Invisibility potions for emergencies.

heaven13

SaRuZ wrote: »

The fact that you can't blade-of-woe them without getting time shaved is incredibly vain on ZoS end.
Pathetic at best.

I mean, it sucks because it's inconvenient. But it's actually keeping with TG lore. You're not supposed to murder on the job. Though you don't get dinged for pickpocketing beggars so...*shrug*

Firerock2

All eso dlc has been bull carp

Elsonso

I don't do heists specifically due to the time limit, and when I do bother, I don't pay any attention to the timer. If it runs out, so what?

IlCanis_LupuslI

Cryptical wrote: »

I don't know about anyone else, but my benchmark for everything of a sneaky undetected thief type of challenge is based on the first and second games of the Thief series, made by looking glass and eidos. that would be Thief - the dark project, and Thief - the metal age.

Large open world areas populated by guards that you have to navigate through, just like eso.

Complications to the maps, just like eso.

Varying levels of difficulty making the challenge harder, just like eso.

But the number one difference between the two approaches to 'sneaky sneaky snatch the loot' thieving between eso and the thief series is that time limit. That time limit being placed in a position of priority over stealth means that this "Thieves guild heist" STOPS being about thieving and becomes first and foremost about running the area as a race against time.

Don't believe me? Simple fact - it's better to be seen and make it back to Fa'ren-dar within the time limit than it is to remain undetected and go beyond the time. Putting the time limit as priority gives eso's "thieving" all the class of a smash and grab - low class thieving.

A time limit that spurs a player into aggressive play would have been more in tune with the fighters guild dailies, but we can spend 12 hours slogging through 3 dolmens on a turtle-safe non-aggressive tank capable of no more than 3 dps... But rather than use a timer to cattle prod people doing a fighter guild daily into fighting harder, the eso thieves guild developers put a timer onto a person whose first principle would otherwise be "Do Not Act Rashly".

Wrongheaded, just like the developers who tried to include more hack-and-slash into Thief 3. T2 Metal Age had people making new levels and mods for a DECADE even though it had like 8 bit Nintendo graphics.

These thieves guild heists, they are bull carp. The crude smash-n-grab of the heists compares to actual thieving gameplay in much the same way that a McDonald cheeseburger compared to a steak in any sit-down service restaurant. And in my opinion, it stems from that timer that starts ticking away, prodding me to stop doing actual thieving gameplay and instead act like a reckless smash-n-grab uncouth savage.

I'll still be grinding those heists out during the event, but I look at them each time the way you would look at a McDonald cheeseburger when you really want steak.

In my nb i usually go in First and take everything i can find, then i abort the quest and do it in the given time. Usually takes me 2/3 attempts but I like them since finally smthng the nb are masters at and not sorc or magtemplars.
Good job zenimax designing those heists!!!!!!

SydneyGrey

Firerock2 wrote: »

All eso dlc has been bull carp

No it hasn't. Orsinium was EPIC.

zaria

rustic_potato wrote: »

Yeh you need to outfit your character specifically for those. Pretty much how raiders and PVPers fit their characters for those events.

Step 1: become a vamp - Dark Stalker is OP removes sneak move speed penalty.
Step 2: 5pc Night Mother's Embrace and 5pc Night Terror, (stealthy race is a bonus) u can sneak and stand right in front of the non- torch NPCs and still not get detected. Perfect example of Hide in plain sight. lol

on my khajit with this setup only thing I had to avoid was to literally bump into NPCs there was no other way I get detected.

You need to work for your reward. The timer on the heists ensure that you don't spend eternity in there. It is perfect. L2P.

Yes, you can make the night mother cp150 to save money even, its not like you need dps

Skayaq

zaria wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

Yeh you need to outfit your character specifically for those. Pretty much how raiders and PVPers fit their characters for those events.

Step 1: become a vamp - Dark Stalker is OP removes sneak move speed penalty.
Step 2: 5pc Night Mother's Embrace and 5pc Night Terror, (stealthy race is a bonus) u can sneak and stand right in front of the non- torch NPCs and still not get detected. Perfect example of Hide in plain sight. lol

on my khajit with this setup only thing I had to avoid was to literally bump into NPCs there was no other way I get detected.

You need to work for your reward. The timer on the heists ensure that you don't spend eternity in there. It is perfect. L2P.

Yes, you can make the night mother cp150 to save money even, its not like you need dps

Night Mother's Embrace is a dropped set in Deshaan, you are probably thinking either of the Night Mother's Gaze set, which does nothing for stealth, or the Night's Silence set, which removes movement penalty.

Eshja

Skayaq wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

Yeh you need to outfit your character specifically for those. Pretty much how raiders and PVPers fit their characters for those events.

Step 1: become a vamp - Dark Stalker is OP removes sneak move speed penalty.
Step 2: 5pc Night Mother's Embrace and 5pc Night Terror, (stealthy race is a bonus) u can sneak and stand right in front of the non- torch NPCs and still not get detected. Perfect example of Hide in plain sight. lol

on my khajit with this setup only thing I had to avoid was to literally bump into NPCs there was no other way I get detected.

You need to work for your reward. The timer on the heists ensure that you don't spend eternity in there. It is perfect. L2P.

Yes, you can make the night mother cp150 to save money even, its not like you need dps

Night Mother's Embrace is a dropped set in Deshaan, you are probably thinking either of the Night Mother's Gaze set, which does nothing for stealth, or the Night's Silence set, which removes movement penalty.

Or just be magNB and use shadow

acw37162

I think bull carp is bull carp, though.

zaria

Skayaq wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

Yeh you need to outfit your character specifically for those. Pretty much how raiders and PVPers fit their characters for those events.

Step 1: become a vamp - Dark Stalker is OP removes sneak move speed penalty.
Step 2: 5pc Night Mother's Embrace and 5pc Night Terror, (stealthy race is a bonus) u can sneak and stand right in front of the non- torch NPCs and still not get detected. Perfect example of Hide in plain sight. lol

on my khajit with this setup only thing I had to avoid was to literally bump into NPCs there was no other way I get detected.

You need to work for your reward. The timer on the heists ensure that you don't spend eternity in there. It is perfect. L2P.

Yes, you can make the night mother cp150 to save money even, its not like you need dps

Night Mother's Embrace is a dropped set in Deshaan, you are probably thinking either of the Night Mother's Gaze set, which does nothing for stealth, or the Night's Silence set, which removes movement penalty.

Yes, night silence I thought of.

Amayna

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Oh yeah. Their bull.

There are several spots where you are guarenteed to be seen and you cannot assasinate guards. It's bull.

That is exactly the reason why I don't do them

TheShadowScout

I personally hate all kinds of time limits. I'd much rather have the heists time-unlimited, but with increased bounty generation - fail in your sneaky sneaks, and you may end up paying more then what you stole was worth. Same for black sacraments - get spotted doing the murdering, and you get a bounty more hefty then you'd like.

Personally I would even enjoy a more diverse bounty system... not just the current fine/bounty to rack up, but some "bounty marks" that cannot be paid off at a fance, but require some miniquest to get rid of.

Then we can have "bounty" random encounters... like, "escape/defeat the bounty hunters that come after you" with increased difficulty until you can no longer win and must flee... (as in, have one bounty mark, get a public dungeon bossfight bounty hunter encounter, have two marks, get a full dungeon bossfight bounty hunter, have three marks, get a justice guard bounty hunter event - solo-instanced of course... the first you can win, the second maaaaaybe, if you are realy good... the third, no way...)
Or encounters where you do get captured, and then have to escape from prison if you want to contine your life of crime... or just do your time, sitting unarmed in a prison public dungeon clad in prisoner rags with your inventory locked, doing mindlessly repetetive minigames like "break rocks with hammer" or "sew jute sacks" until you rack up enough "release points" to offset your misdeed-bounty and earn your release... and enjoying all the classic prison clichees like agressive gangs, sadistic guards, brawls in the mess hall, dropped soap in the showers...

Tomg999

I agree with the OP. If they are going to give us a DLC (two really) that relies on and promotes a sneak style of play, why ruin the fun by rewarding a different play-style?
And to me that's the problem - it ruins the fun. I made a super-sneak character, outfitted him, and get all into this style of play, and then the Heists I either have to miss out on taking my time and solving the problem, or just shrug and give up on the bonus.

Soella

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Oh yeah. Their bull.

There are several spots where you are guarenteed to be seen and you cannot assasinate guards. It's bull.

There are no such spots.

There is one where you guaranteed to get into blue circle but with proper positioning you won't be spotted. I thought there is one more similar spot, but recently learnt how to avoid blue circle there.

There is one chest position where you are guaranteed to be spotted, but in that specific heist always there are additional chests in other places.

My initial reaction on heists was very similar to OP. But I accepted it as a challenge, and adjusted gear and toon so I can always do it in time. Now I think it is very good design, it make you think out the box.