Are you *** kidding me with these AP adjustments

SneaK

asneakybanana wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

@Anazasi were lucky on PC na in the fact we haven't really had any outposts/keep farmers for the most part. If you look at PC EU and the console's there is tons of this outpost farming going on and it's only a matter of time imo until haderus becomes a farm campaign for us. I wouldn't mind seeing pugs getting more AP but there needs to be a better way than ticks. That just encourages zerging and exploiting farm methods.

@asneakybanana we don't have farmers like that because all the top guilds on PCNA actually PvP and wouldn't let it happen. If people started trying those farms on Haderous, it wouldn't be long before VE, Haxus, Fantasia or someone would show up to farm the farmers.

It's not as easy as you think. We have big guilds with (some) morals on console too. But we also have 5 campaigns. We busted farms up on multiple camps but you just can't be everywhere at the same time. It was possible to police a campaign but not all.

On PC EU there was a level 44 general

That's absolutely ridiculous, saddening actually.

I had heard of a lvl 13 major lol.

Joy_Division

The PvDoor AP resource has NOT spread people out. Everyone is in a rush to zerg the mine flag guards so they don't miss out on the 1.5K AP. Guilds unnecessary stack during PvDoor keeps/outposts to get the juicy 6K.

It's a joke. If they were going to do anything, what ZoS should have done was to multiply the value for each opponent killed at a resource/keep such that if it was actually contested the reward for taking/holding it would be high, but PvDooring it would get exactly what you deserve: zero.

xeNNNNN

ThePonzzz wrote: »

EdTerra wrote: »

1.0 to 1.7 cyrodiil was PvP
1.8 to 1T cyrodill was ZergvZerg
since homestead it's PvDoor

but you know, AR mean nothing since 1.8, I don't know why people still complain about AP farming

Not 100% true. You still have the bridge wars for unknown reasons.

Its not unknown, people are just braindead farming zombies.

frozywozy

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/326645/suggestion-to-address-the-actual-problem-of-objectives-trading-in-cyrodiil

WuffyCerulei

asneakybanana wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Ya know keeps are way more work to capture than an outpost, right?

Not really. The way players have been farming outposts on eu, by leaving the wall down, makes it so there are maybe 5 more NPCs that you have to contend with but it's really not a big change. Can still easily flip a keep in under a minute with the walls down and 12 ppl flipping flags.

When you're in a highly coordinated ball group with several healers and target a keep that no one's extremely concerned a out, then yeah, it's easy. When it's one of the currently important keeps, it's almost impossible to take without a heavy zerg or 10 Eye of the Storms and sorcs streaking to stun everyone.

ToRelax

Dorrino wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

If you're okay with letting the cross faction keep flipping happen in otherwise empty campaigns, sure. Nevermind that would then also negate the incentive to spread out because it's so much easier to farm AP by simply joining in the farm. >_>

I'm definitely ok with almost anything in empty campaigns, as long as the ap gains are on par with high pop campaigns.

6k per 5-10 min is an achievable number without keeps flipping.

And, generally, if you are already capable to have 2 groups with 10-15 people flipping a keep back and forth, why wouldn't you trade kills as well?

The ap gains are far higher than with actual PvP

You need less than a minute per tick.

Because kills are spread between all players.

Dorrino

ToRelax wrote: »

The ap gains are far higher than with actual PvP

You need less than a minute per tick.

Because kills are spread between all players.

You need less than a minute to capture a keep?

Please provide a video of doing so in a group of any size.

arkansas_ESO

asneakybanana wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

@Anazasi were lucky on PC na in the fact we haven't really had any outposts/keep farmers for the most part. If you look at PC EU and the console's there is tons of this outpost farming going on and it's only a matter of time imo until haderus becomes a farm campaign for us. I wouldn't mind seeing pugs getting more AP but there needs to be a better way than ticks. That just encourages zerging and exploiting farm methods.

@asneakybanana we don't have farmers like that because all the top guilds on PCNA actually PvP and wouldn't let it happen. If people started trying those farms on Haderous, it wouldn't be long before VE, Haxus, Fantasia or someone would show up to farm the farmers.

It's not as easy as you think. We have big guilds with (some) morals on console too. But we also have 5 campaigns. We busted farms up on multiple camps but you just can't be everywhere at the same time. It was possible to police a campaign but not all.

On PC EU there was a level 44 general

I need a screenshot of this

TequilaFire

Interesting how threatened some are that those that actually capture keeps instead of farming their friends might advance in rank. Freaking bunch of hypocrites.

ThePonzzz

AlwaysOnFire wrote: »

ThePonzzz wrote: »

Well yeah, that goes without saying that you have to practice a bit before knowing how to do anything. That includes the basic mechanics of the game. But to say resources are hard to take would be like saying the game is hard to play.

You... do understand that just because you have achieved something, that doesn't make it objectively easy, right? Until it becomes easy, the game is 'hard to play' for people. What you deem 'basic mechanics' are not flawlessly intuitive to everybody, and people will often not learn them unless they are properly compensated for doing so. Else, why bother? Just go do something else more rewarding with your time otherwise.

And Zenimax is probably not developing a game based on that the game is easy for you personally, but likely is considering players that are not yet where you are. Players that give up won't partake of content they spend time and money to develop, so a good developer takes time to balance the difficulty/reward of certain activities not for you, but for those who actually need incentive to master the content.

It's like looking at a kid who's not motivated to learn algebra and telling them "math's not hard. you just have to practice a bit before knowing how to do anything."

They'll never learn or want to learn unless there's more in it for them than just a lack of contempt from people who condescended to them about it. It's inadvertently calling them stupid, because if you find it easy, and they don't find it easy, then they must just be objectively worse than you at something that doesn't benefit them anyway. By increasing the reward, people are more likely to learn, use, and master the mechanics that you deem basic. And in turn this has an impact on how the game flows and what the environment is like, and how good it is at retaining players. Assuming everything is easy and thus not worth rewarding is a disservice to practically everybody who doesn't have a "screw you, I got mine" attitude.

Zenimax's design is trying to encourage people to become your peer, and so by making the content more rewarding people who would never otherwise invest in that content will do so, and soon they too will find it 'easy.'

Difficulty in Cyrodiil is very straight forward. Resources always have the same number of guards with the exact same layout. With tower doors removed, there is also cover. There is some very rudimentary skill needed to know how to fight guards in Cyrodiil (they have a very strict pattern of attacks they follow). You need a few things though. Self healing is a must. AoE makes it easier but not required. And finally a plan of attack.

Going back to what you said about deeming something easy doesn't make it easy for everyone else. We're not talking about someone green to this game when we're discussing this. We're talking about someone who understands the game enough to want to PvP and solo resources. There is a time element to learning though. I don't do vet dungeons because I don't have the time to learn the boss battles. You could say they are too hard for me. But the reality is, I'm too impatient to stick it out. My time investment I can commit to the game doesn't allow me to learn the game well with others.

The only way to get better at something is to keep trying it. What works for me doesn't work for everyone, but I found my way somehow. Taking a resource by yourself is certainly possible, with ease, with enough practice. No one stepped foot in Cyrodiil as an expert. I honestly feel soloing a resource is an important step in becoming self sustainable in Cyrodiil.

And honestly, I do prefer people who never know how. I enjoy that AP.

mtwiggz

You actually think that giving quests more AP reward will spread out the map? You realize that will encourage people to form pug groups to share a quest and then zerg it down, right? Right.

Kudos for actually coming up with an idea, but this idea of yours honestly doesn't make sense. Sure they could give it a try, but the zergs will zerg. That's what they do.

Sheuib

Get a group and start killing people. Start repairing doors. Force others to play or die. This type of AP farming can be stopped.

Iskrasfemme

Agree with OP about the coffee...

Sublime

Isbilen wrote: »

EdTerra wrote: »

1.0 to 1.7 cyrodiil was PvP
1.8 to 1T cyrodill was ZergvZerg
since homestead it's PvDoor

but you know, AR mean nothing since 1.8, I don't know why people still complain about AP farming

WRONG. Player versus Flag NPCs. The door stays open!

Easy fix:

Step 1:
Invert the function that calculates the time it takes to swap a flag. Change it so that it increases with players on the flag and decreases the fewer players there are on the flag.

Step 2:
Enjoy the rage of the zergs.

Zinaroth

SneaK wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

@Anazasi were lucky on PC na in the fact we haven't really had any outposts/keep farmers for the most part. If you look at PC EU and the console's there is tons of this outpost farming going on and it's only a matter of time imo until haderus becomes a farm campaign for us. I wouldn't mind seeing pugs getting more AP but there needs to be a better way than ticks. That just encourages zerging and exploiting farm methods.

@asneakybanana we don't have farmers like that because all the top guilds on PCNA actually PvP and wouldn't let it happen. If people started trying those farms on Haderous, it wouldn't be long before VE, Haxus, Fantasia or someone would show up to farm the farmers.

It's not as easy as you think. We have big guilds with (some) morals on console too. But we also have 5 campaigns. We busted farms up on multiple camps but you just can't be everywhere at the same time. It was possible to police a campaign but not all.

On PC EU there was a level 44 general

That's absolutely ridiculous, saddening actually.

I had heard of a lvl 13 major lol.

I heard of a level 1 Grand Overlord.

visionality

frozywozy wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/326645/suggestion-to-address-the-actual-problem-of-objectives-trading-in-cyrodiil

@frozywozy - Your suggestion is the best solution I've seen so far, way easier to handle than starting to calculate cooldowns etc and an effective stop to AP farming in the way we see it now.

ToRelax

Dorrino wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

The ap gains are far higher than with actual PvP

You need less than a minute per tick.

Because kills are spread between all players.

You need less than a minute to capture a keep?

Please provide a video of doing so in a group of any size.

Who is talking about "capturing a keep"? You just need to keep the keep flagged and turn the flags. If you don't count the NPCs, you can do it at maximum speed with at least 12 players on both facions. And no, I won't do it now, much less create a video of it. If you've been asleep the last week, that's hardly my problem.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Tbh I'm happy with rewarding 6k or even 12k for a keep (based on keep level) IF that total is split across the participants. It was honestly nice to see some back keeps flipping changing up the map (although there was no reward for holding them - which needs to be addressed too). Just make it like player death AP in that way.
There should also be a dynamic cooldown which lowers the AP a keep is worth the more it is captured within a short amount of time.

kevlarto_ESO

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

At this point, I say just leave it be.

ZOS is trying to encourage people to fight elsewhere besides the ring...the only way to do that is make other objectives worth something.

They are at least trying. Cut them a little slack, its a game, not a job.

This^^ and really it is to the point why care, it is what it is if this is another fail they will see the data as it comes in, just playing for fun sure makes the game a lot easier to handle, there is nothing ZOS can do and when you have an inexperienced dev team like lambert / worbel we have to suffer through their growing pains as well as they learn what does and does not work. Lots of us have been playing these games longer than they been working on them but our opinions do not matter.

Chilla_Deluxe

TequilaFire wrote: »

Interesting how threatened some are that those that actually capture keeps instead of farming their friends might advance in rank. Freaking bunch of hypocrites.

What I found most baffling is most of these whiny threads are people who exploit/had exploited at one point or have huge ap gains and are just jealous because they dont want others to advance in rank. Can someone honestly claim to be so self righteous?

Chilla_Deluxe

ToRelax wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

The ap gains are far higher than with actual PvP

You need less than a minute per tick.

Because kills are spread between all players.

You need less than a minute to capture a keep?

Please provide a video of doing so in a group of any size.

Who is talking about "capturing a keep"? You just need to keep the keep flagged and turn the flags. If you don't count the NPCs, you can do it at maximum speed with at least 12 players on both facions. And no, I won't do it now, much less create a video of it. If you've been asleep the last week, that's hardly my problem.

Counting the NPCs adds a good 1-2 minutes to the timer and drastically reduces the ap gained per hour in comparison to the average ap gained by a decent group. So cut me some slack. You people are really going overboard with this. Havent seen keep/outpost flipping since yesterdays maintenance here on PS4 EU console at the very least.

ToRelax

Chilla_Deluxe wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

The ap gains are far higher than with actual PvP

You need less than a minute per tick.

Because kills are spread between all players.

You need less than a minute to capture a keep?

Please provide a video of doing so in a group of any size.

Who is talking about "capturing a keep"? You just need to keep the keep flagged and turn the flags. If you don't count the NPCs, you can do it at maximum speed with at least 12 players on both facions. And no, I won't do it now, much less create a video of it. If you've been asleep the last week, that's hardly my problem.

Counting the NPCs adds a good 1-2 minutes to the timer and drastically reduces the ap gained per hour in comparison to the average ap gained by a decent group. So cut me some slack. You people are really going overboard with this. Havent seen keep/outpost flipping since yesterdays maintenance here on PS4 EU console at the very least.

If you need 1-2 minutes to kill the flag NPCs and keep any other NPCs away from the flags with a group of 6 - why are you even talking on this topic?

Valencer

Joy_Division wrote: »

The PvDoor AP resource has NOT spread people out. Everyone is in a rush to zerg the mine flag guards so they don't miss out on the 1.5K AP. Guilds unnecessary stack during PvDoor keeps/outposts to get the juicy 6K.

It's a joke. If they were going to do anything, what ZoS should have done was to multiply the value for each opponent killed at a resource/keep such that if it was actually contested the reward for taking/holding it would be high, but PvDooring it would get exactly what you deserve: zero.

This exactly.

Forget about the "roleplay" nonsense going on at PC EU. The ticks themselves are just really badly designed. All Ive seen so far is alliances rolling over keeps with as many people as possible to ensure an easy tick.

They need to divide the ticks over all the players present, just like every other AP tick. There's absolutely no reason for 60 people to get 6k AP each for a keep PvDoor job.

Ghost-Shot

@asneakybanana this just means that guilds across factions need to watch for this, make sure we *** it up anytime someone is trying this crap. I don't think it will be as bad with keeps as outposts though, I feel like people have a tendency to show up to defend keeps more so than outposts.

Chilla_Deluxe

ToRelax wrote: »

Chilla_Deluxe wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

The ap gains are far higher than with actual PvP

You need less than a minute per tick.

Because kills are spread between all players.

You need less than a minute to capture a keep?

Please provide a video of doing so in a group of any size.

Who is talking about "capturing a keep"? You just need to keep the keep flagged and turn the flags. If you don't count the NPCs, you can do it at maximum speed with at least 12 players on both facions. And no, I won't do it now, much less create a video of it. If you've been asleep the last week, that's hardly my problem.

Counting the NPCs adds a good 1-2 minutes to the timer and drastically reduces the ap gained per hour in comparison to the average ap gained by a decent group. So cut me some slack. You people are really going overboard with this. Havent seen keep/outpost flipping since yesterdays maintenance here on PS4 EU console at the very least.

If you need 1-2 minutes to kill the flag NPCs and keep any other NPCs away from the flags with a group of 6 - why are you even talking on this topic?

Firstly, before jumping to insults, lets be logical. You're only making yourself look childish. On Console the fastest people flip flags is around per 5 minutes (and this was outpost flipping lol) 2 flips which is 1 tick per faction. Simply because most of the so called "good players" like to be the afk ones. Second, console does have alot of kids and such which ruin it so you figure 5 minutes x 6k ap each hour (12 ticks) would be 72k ap an hour with so called "effective keep flipping". If people want to flip keeps and waste their time on this very boring method then so be it, no need to nag on everything that doesn't fit your biased mindset.

ToRelax

Chilla_Deluxe wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Chilla_Deluxe wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

The ap gains are far higher than with actual PvP

You need less than a minute per tick.

Because kills are spread between all players.

You need less than a minute to capture a keep?

Please provide a video of doing so in a group of any size.

Who is talking about "capturing a keep"? You just need to keep the keep flagged and turn the flags. If you don't count the NPCs, you can do it at maximum speed with at least 12 players on both facions. And no, I won't do it now, much less create a video of it. If you've been asleep the last week, that's hardly my problem.

Counting the NPCs adds a good 1-2 minutes to the timer and drastically reduces the ap gained per hour in comparison to the average ap gained by a decent group. So cut me some slack. You people are really going overboard with this. Havent seen keep/outpost flipping since yesterdays maintenance here on PS4 EU console at the very least.

If you need 1-2 minutes to kill the flag NPCs and keep any other NPCs away from the flags with a group of 6 - why are you even talking on this topic?

Firstly, before jumping to insults, lets be logical. You're only making yourself look childish. On Console the fastest people flip flags is around per 5 minutes (and this was outpost flipping lol) 2 flips which is 1 tick per faction. Simply because most of the so called "good players" like to be the afk ones. Second, console does have alot of kids and such which ruin it so you figure 5 minutes x 6k ap each hour (12 ticks) would be 72k ap an hour with so called "effective keep flipping". If people want to flip keeps and waste their time on this very boring method then so be it, no need to nag on everything that doesn't fit your biased mindset.

No, there is no arguing over a farming method when the farming players do it 5 times more slowly than I would expect. It does take a bit of coordinating ofc, that doesn't mean it's impossible or even difficult. In fact, you could pretty much ignore the NPCs entirely by doubling the amount of players. If moving a bit back and forth every few seconds is too difficult, then what isn't.

Sallington

I like your suggestion for increasing the keep capture and scouting quests.

Also:

Scroll capture quest: 20k AP reward

Please make them more exciting and worth while than they are now.

asneakybanana

Chilla_Deluxe wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Chilla_Deluxe wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

The ap gains are far higher than with actual PvP

You need less than a minute per tick.

Because kills are spread between all players.

You need less than a minute to capture a keep?

Please provide a video of doing so in a group of any size.

Who is talking about "capturing a keep"? You just need to keep the keep flagged and turn the flags. If you don't count the NPCs, you can do it at maximum speed with at least 12 players on both facions. And no, I won't do it now, much less create a video of it. If you've been asleep the last week, that's hardly my problem.

Counting the NPCs adds a good 1-2 minutes to the timer and drastically reduces the ap gained per hour in comparison to the average ap gained by a decent group. So cut me some slack. You people are really going overboard with this. Havent seen keep/outpost flipping since yesterdays maintenance here on PS4 EU console at the very least.

If you need 1-2 minutes to kill the flag NPCs and keep any other NPCs away from the flags with a group of 6 - why are you even talking on this topic?

Firstly, before jumping to insults, lets be logical. You're only making yourself look childish. On Console the fastest people flip flags is around per 5 minutes (and this was outpost flipping lol) 2 flips which is 1 tick per faction. Simply because most of the so called "good players" like to be the afk ones. Second, console does have alot of kids and such which ruin it so you figure 5 minutes x 6k ap each hour (12 ticks) would be 72k ap an hour with so called "effective keep flipping". If people want to flip keeps and waste their time on this very boring method then so be it, no need to nag on everything that doesn't fit your biased mindset.

If you get 2 active and dedicated 12 man's you can make 300k+ AP/hr easy flipping a keep and resources back and forth. It takes ~2-3 mins to complete a loop of flipping a keep and all resources. That's 10.5k AP just for the ticks with no AP buff. Add in the AP buff and you're at 13k AP every 3 mins in the worst scenario that's 13k*20 and you have 260k+ AP/hr with the WORST scenario and I could pretty easily see this going well over 300k if not 400k once you get everything down perfectly.

Ghost-Shot

I actually want to add some feedback to the quest ideas. In my opinion we should do away with some, if not all, of the current quest system and replace them with weekly quests that have a large AP, consistent progression is an important thing to an mmo. Here are some arbitrary numbers, these would obviously need some fine tuning

Kills: Kill 250 players (not kb's, just kills) for 100k ap, can be filled in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or bg's
Keeps: capture 25 keeps or outposts for 100k ap
- @asneakybanana having the keep quests that send you deep in enemy territory is a good idea to split people up in theory but that s not really how it works, idk about you guys but we constantly share chal keep and chal mine since they get capped/recapped so frequently
Resources: capture 50 resources for 100k ap
Districts: capture 25 imperial city districts for 25k ap, maybe 25k tv instead/as well?

I would leave the scroll and scout quests as repeatable, 1k ap for scout quests and maybe 10k for a scroll with possibly a bonus for recapturing your own alliance's scrolls. Should also probably add kill quest board to capital cities so you can grab your weekly without taking up Cyrodiil queues.

Again the numbers I give are totally arbitrary but they should be some large value so you have a worst case time frame for progression if you are consistent about doing the weeklies. I think making grand overlord more obtainable for people is a good thing, its always going to take a very long time but I do think its a bit excessive for not being account wide at the moment. I would also suggest at this point with how much ap gains have been changed already that zos give something to everyone who already has a grand overlord to show that they did it the old way, maybe a unique mount, title or costume, something to make them stand out.

Anazasi

Dorrino wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

The ap gains are far higher than with actual PvP

You need less than a minute per tick.

Because kills are spread between all players.

You need less than a minute to capture a keep?

Please provide a video of doing so in a group of any size.

3 minutes is the fastest I believe you can flip a keep starting the time at the first piece of siege dropped. I know this because, well our group has done it. Granted the keep is undefended or at least not defended by more than 3 or 4 players. Taking a keep in 2.5 to 3 minutes is extremely fast using small 16 man dropping full 20 siege. The issue is the keeps are suppose to flag at 50% but sadly they don't actually flag until the door is about 35% which means that's when the factions see's it. At this point you can start 1.5 minute timer till the first opposition can actually arrive. It takes 1 minute to travel from any transit able way point, 30 seconds for the players to actually register in their little heads oh Ash is flagged, I better get there. Of course this is only when hitting a front door since the health on them is much less than the walls they are faster. Walls on the other hand will take a solid 4 minutes to take down both inner and outer postern.

Feel free to push my standards but I do believe these are the best target times to shoot for.