Newer Player/MMO Asset PvP vet first impressions of Cyrodiil during AP event.

buttaface

Some feedback from an ESO PvP newb and 15 year Asset Control PvP vet going all the way back to Shadowbane and Anarchy Online... in case you want more people to pvp in this game and not complain about it.

1. Improve and flesh out the tutorial far more. Remove the "I don't need training" dialog option for example, which anyone who has played an MMO can take as a common and unwanted tutorial skip option, and so won't start the quest but think they have. This happened to me and I ran around aimlessly, needlessly for awhile. Replace with some other dialog.

Using siege engines is simple. PLACING them, and knowing where to place and use them is trickier. This aspect should be fleshed out far more in the tutorial. In general, the tutorial needs lots more meat in it. For example, have a nonfunctional keep with sample engines and a tour of the keeps and various structures, maybe even fake enemies. Needs lots of work given the complexity of the overall system. Steep learning curve and not much guidance in the tutorial.

2. Streamline inventory bloat. Simplify various repair kits into one generic kit that works on engines, walls and doors. I almost left the zone before even starting when I saw all the various needless complexity in various doodads, most that don't stack. Can only imagine what nonsubscribers (who might -become- subscribers) without the craft bag think when they see all the needless, unstacking categories. If I weren't a subscriber would have left the zone instantly, never to return.

On that note, streamline the siege engines. Sell -one- type of each engine and then allow players to customize or "load" them with different stuff. Several ways to do this. Allow them to STACK, maybe 5 or so to prevent spam (although I can't figure out why things like this don't stack in a game this old to start with), but the lack of stacking almost made me leave before even starting.

3. Go ahead and tell people that they are at a severe disadvantage and will be ganked due to trailing behind if they don't have a trained up mount, even with speed buff. Fix this by equalizing all mount speeds in Cyro or have newer players leave and never come back when they realize the distances and how slow they ride and how long to get anywhere, even with the speed buff. Players shouldn't have to wait 60 freaking days to be able to keep up in the pvp zone.

4. Clean up at least 50% or more of the terrain chokepoints on the map. It's way overdone and extremely annoying in the zone. Believe me, people will still find plenty of places to gank without your huge helping hand in this department.

5. The keeps are way outsized big. Scale them down significantly. This is a fantasy game, not a medieval war simulation.

6. Add more fast travel mechanisms to the game mode and map. Some type of summoning, or allow "travel to player" within reason. The immense travel times were cool, or at least tolerable in 2000 at the inception of MMOs, they aren't now. Spending 50% of your time riding is not a recipe for good pvp that people will stick with, especially busy people with jobs who have limited playtime. Kids still in school may be fine with it... but then again they don't have as much money to spend in your crown store, do they?

7. I died numerous times and got the kill blow on lots of folks, which is part of the fun. What is -not- fun is seeing absurd amounts of monster set damage pop up in the deathscreen of the supposed "no CP equalizer" zone when I haven't been playing long enough to have that stuff. Disallow monster sets in the no CP campaigns. On that note, and this will draw lots of flames from the assinchair crowd always seeking unfair advantage, if you REALLY want a successful pvp zone that people like to play, STANDARDIZE lots of the gear, consumes, in a single campaign. Then skill and not gear will win, which is what lots of casual adult pvpers who haven't played the game a year would --subscribe- for. It's within the spirit of your One Tamriel experiment, why not have a zone like that. Much easier to balance for that as well.

It's a great foundation for a pvp system, but needs lots of polish and streamlining to bring in more people who feel the playing field is level.

Oh, finally, with your 4x4x4 upcoming system, make it too complex and it -will- flop. Go back and check out the very basic arena maps from games like Guild Wars One that were hugely successful, and don't go down the route of a bunch of fancy maps and complicated scripts. You want working people with limited time to feel they can hop in and get fast, random fights, not complicated "stand on the buttons to fight for the switch that opens the gate that drops the bomb that releases the monster" overscripted BS that I've seen fail in many fail games. Add complexity later, start simple.

I'll be back to Cyrodiil once I've trained up my horse for another MONTH or so... if I haven't gotten bored of waiting and flipped the unsubscribe switch by then that is.

holosoul

buttaface wrote: »

Some feedback from an ESO PvP newb and 15 year Asset Control PvP vet going all the way back to Shadowbane and Anarchy Online... in case you want more people to pvp in this game and not complain about it.

1. Improve and flesh out the tutorial far more. Remove the "I don't need training" dialog option for example, which anyone who has played an MMO can take as a common and unwanted tutorial skip option, and so won't start the quest but think they have. This happened to me and I ran around aimlessly, needlessly for awhile. Replace with some other dialog.

Using siege engines is simple. PLACING them, and knowing where to place and use them is trickier. This aspect should be fleshed out far more in the tutorial. In general, the tutorial needs lots more meat in it. For example, have a nonfunctional keep with sample engines and a tour of the keeps and various structures, maybe even fake enemies. Needs lots of work given the complexity of the overall system. Steep learning curve and not much guidance in the tutorial.

2. Streamline inventory bloat. Simplify various repair kits into one generic kit that works on engines, walls and doors. I almost left the zone before even starting when I saw all the various needless complexity in various doodads, most that don't stack. Can only imagine what nonsubscribers (who might -become- subscribers) without the craft bag think when they see all the needless, unstacking categories. If I weren't a subscriber would have left the zone instantly, never to return.

On that note, streamline the siege engines. Sell -one- type of each engine and then allow players to customize or "load" them with different stuff. Several ways to do this. Allow them to STACK, maybe 5 or so to prevent spam (although I can't figure out why things like this don't stack in a game this old to start with), but the lack of stacking almost made me leave before even starting.

These are solid points, which I believe most people will agree with. I like the idea of having different kinds of siege ammo, although we may end up spending more AP compared to repair kits on single engines, and it would make the coldfire seige more dear if you can't repair the "ammo". I remember when I didn't have inventory and before plus bags, sometimes cyrodiil had nightmare levels of item bloat. I would have to resort to sending mail with siege equipment to my friends so they could return them and I could stash them in the mail, plus entering cyrodiil with basically no items except the absolute requirements. My bank at the time was full of stacks of craftables so it more or less meant I didn't get to have any alternative gear sets or other random items in my characters inventory at basically any time.

It's better now, but the siege equipment really does use a lot of inventory. It mostly disadvantages new players who don't have 200 inventory or plus bags; whereas I'm free to always have 4 oils, 200 of every repair kit, 2 or 3 every seige engine, a ram, and a few forward camps without thinking twice, and to collect every resource at my leisure.

3. Go ahead and tell people that they are at a severe disadvantage and will be ganked due to trailing behind if they don't have a trained up mount, even with speed buff. Fix this by equalizing all mount speeds in Cyro or have newer players leave and never come back when they realize the distances and how slow they ride and how long to get anywhere, even with the speed buff. Players shouldn't have to wait 60 freaking days to be able to keep up in the pvp zone.

Oh just wait until you realize how good mount stamina is

4. Clean up at least 50% or more of the terrain chokepoints on the map. It's way overdone and extremely annoying in the zone. Believe me, people will still find plenty of places to gank without your huge helping hand in this department.

You lost me here. The choke points aren't for gankers, they're for zergs. I don't think you've been there long enough to understand the map and terrain dynamics, I won't even poison your mind much, but I would advise you to hold your judgement until you have a feeling for the zone.

5. The keeps are way outsized big. Scale them down significantly. This is a fantasy game, not a medieval war simulation.

I've never felt this way, what makes you say they are too big? I don't think you will say that after you have a 40v40v40 in one and every inch of it is crawling with enemies and siege danger.

6. Add more fast travel mechanisms to the game mode and map. Some type of summoning, or allow "travel to player" within reason. The immense travel times were cool, or at least tolerable in 2000 at the inception of MMOs, they aren't now. Spending 50% of your time riding is not a recipe for good pvp that people will stick with, especially busy people with jobs who have limited playtime. Kids still in school may be fine with it... but then again they don't have as much money to spend in your crown store, do they?

The current shrines are fine, I very strongly disagree with you about this. The only problem which you already noticed is that it's balanced for max mounts; this alienates new players. I don't see any reason why every character shouldn't have a max mount in cyrodiil, it would be more balanced and hurt no one. I would not like to see travel times reduced even farther than what they are with wayshrines and outposts.

7. I died numerous times and got the kill blow on lots of folks, which is part of the fun. What is -not- fun is seeing absurd amounts of monster set damage pop up in the deathscreen of the supposed "no CP equalizer" zone when I haven't been playing long enough to have that stuff. Disallow monster sets in the no CP campaigns. On that note, and this will draw lots of flames from the assinchair crowd always seeking unfair advantage, if you REALLY want a successful pvp zone that people like to play, STANDARDIZE lots of the gear, consumes, in a single campaign. Then skill and not gear will win, which is what lots of casual adult pvpers who haven't played the game a year would --subscribe- for. It's within the spirit of your One Tamriel experiment, why not have a zone like that. Much easier to balance for that as well.

I don't really disagree with the general idea of this either. You'll find a lot of people will freak out because they feel they deserve to have random statistical advantages in competitive play. Personally, I find chess to be a much better example of a truly competitive game. It wouldn't be if you started with even 1 extra pawn, and it wouldn't be popular in competition either, if such a rule existed. Therefor, I am strongly in favor of everyone having the same statistics, and whatever gear set they choose upon entering the zone. If we left all of the customization mechanics in place, but essentially gave everyone their ultimate desire, then better players wouldn't lose to worse ones, and it would be balanced.

Sadly, you'll find this is a very unpopular opinion, and that many MMO players don't actually want to PvP, they want to 'pwn'

NightbladeMechanics

Siege should have stacked since the start of the game. I could get behind placing a vanilla catapult type and then selecting an ammo type to fire with each shot in a sort of siege-specific quickslot system, but then you still have to purchase and carry your ammo separately from your launcher.

Choke points are fine. Keeps could be bigger honestly. I'm not sure what you mean exactly by standardizing armor sets. I like build diversity, but I'm all for ways to level the playing field, elevating less equipped players up and making skill shine through more that stats and gear. I'd be very supportive of a battlegrounds mode with, for example, an all crafted gear, no jewelry ruleset.

Vurian97

Immersion is the reasoning behind majority of the things you tried making sound like it's awful.
Progression is another reason.

Dreyloch

I think the siege engines don't stack because they have a "life" bar. Each one in your inventory has it's own. So you can place down more than one, but any of them can be destroyed individually. I wish there was a way to stack them, but I don't think ZoS can do it within the game engine.

I agree there should be a better tutorial. It should also include what each siege is good for, and when. It sickens me to see someone firing a fire ballista at a wall doing 1/2 the damage a stone ballista does. Although fire ballistas should do more damage to wood doors (one would think, but it doesn't). They are mainly anti-personal siege.

The map is largely unused, that's true. It needs a revamp or new one created.
Gear in this game works for both PvP and PvE. Been saying it forever, there needs to be sets optimized for both styles of play and gotten while doing each type of play ONLY. the PvP AP gear right now is far out shadowed by the dungeon and overland sets.That's why your seeing more proc damage than skill.

I'm going to make a prediction here. The arena's might include some kind of better PvP gear that can only be aquired by doing arenas using a token system of some kind. This will probably also work in cyrodiil, but be horrible for PvE. But, this is a good thing. Commit your time to what style of play you prefer to get the best gear for it. No more of this "all gear all content" crap.

buttaface

Dreyloch wrote: »

I think the siege engines don't stack because they have a "life" bar.

The fix for that would be letting all unused ones stack, then not once they had been used, would give some relief from bag bloat. But the main thing here is standardizing repair kits for all siege repair tasks, and standardizing the machines into four types, ram, treb, cat and ballista. This would solve the bag bloat issue pretty well.

@thread replies

The reason I say the keeps are too big is that I have played better siege asset games with far more players in the fight, yet significantly smaller keeps. Admittedly those games were less graphically complex and demanding. I am arguing for a keep reduction size of 30% or so on the big keeps, not anything drastic.

As far as chokepoints, the map now has a very mazelike feel to it because of so many unnecessary hills, bridges and structures. It is a pet peeve of mine in games when I feel I am being run through a terrain maze instead of moving through a world, in pve or pvp. I believe many feel the same way, and this has been a peeve of mine with Bethesda games all the way back, that seems to have carried over into ZOS. Maybe same people designing the mazes. Surely there is some balance between a flat plain with minimal terrain (which worked very well in other PVP asset games, and the maze now.

Oh, and yeah, it is VERY much there to help out gankers, who represent a sizeable "wallet portion" of subscribers. There are far more straightforward ways to handle zerging.

As far as standardized gear, one extreme would be standard light, med or heavy gear with weapons that was selected by role and weapon choice when entering that particular campaign. It is my opinion that more mature adult players would gravitate in droves to such a campaign, and it could result in more subs. I prefer for pvp to be more standardized and pve to be a gear free for all personally.

As far as fast travel, I adamantly believe the pvp mode is lacking there. There is a long continuum between the "lose and ride forever" BS now, which I have seen firsthand results in people simply logging out or leaving the zone instead of having to do all the riding again, and "instant zerg formation." Surely there is middle ground, in fact other much older games have proven definitively that there is.

I don't know if they ever got the Shadowbane mimic server up and running, if they did, the devs of this game would do well to look into some of the features of that system. It is still the best asset siege warfare game I've ever played. Simple, fun, massive and brutal. Limited fast travel that allowed lots of time for enemies to realize a large group was being summoned in. The keystone of that system was built keeps that guilds owned that had windows of vulnerability and time to respond to a notification via "bane stone" that a siege was forthcoming.

Asgari

There are so many guides and videos on ESO that come out daily by players .. i feel like almost everything you pointed out is not needed.

I am also one for not giving everyone the same mount speed, cp, stats etc when it comes to pvp .. PVP is all about the time you put into the game and gear you choose with what race.

I hate the i deserve it now attitude most players have now. Its something that totally ruined the stam part of the game giving so many players vigor. A skill that is super strong in even the worst of players hands.

buttaface

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I am also one for not giving everyone the same mount speed, cp, stats etc when it comes to pvp .. PVP is all about the time you put into the game and gear you choose with what race.

Of course, because mere "assinchair time" which is all mount training is, should give people an unfair advantage in pvp. Advantages of mere assinchair time, that is -not- skill or selection, as you mistakenly claim above, but a plain -time gate-, such is a big reason only a small portion of players PvP in MMOs, PvP in this one, and a huge reason why people go to zones like Cyro in games, then leave and never come back... or move on to other games (console) that don't reward assinchair time so heavily.

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I hate the i deserve it now attitude most players have now.

Good for you. No one expressed that attitude, I certainly didn't.

Vurian97

buttaface wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I am also one for not giving everyone the same mount speed, cp, stats etc when it comes to pvp .. PVP is all about the time you put into the game and gear you choose with what race.

Of course, because mere "assinchair time" which is all mount training is, should give people an unfair advantage in pvp. Advantages of mere assinchair time, that is -not- skill or selection, as you mistakenly claim above, but a plain -time gate-, such is a big reason only a small portion of players PvP in MMOs, PvP in this one, and a huge reason why people go to zones like Cyro in games, then leave and never come back... or move on to other games (console) that don't reward assinchair time so heavily.

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I hate the i deserve it now attitude most players have now.

Good for you. No one expressed that attitude, I certainly didn't.

Except by terming it 'assinchair' time you imply that you deserve it now. You gave that attitude.

Takllin

You're playing an Elder Scrolls game. The only way that any terrain/structure will get changed is if it's exploitable.

I don't understand the mount speed point. If anything it's an advantage to players willing to spend on the crown store because you can buy mount training lessons with real money instead of waiting 60 days.

The only thing I'd add to cyro in terms of helping new players(besides the first two points) is equalizing CP so new players can play wherever they want and the choice is more about play style preferred. I prefer the build diversity we have from having so many sets to choose from. Gear grind is expected in any MMO. Also, stuff like monster sets aren't bad to get compared to what it used to be. They've improved that part of the game a ton.

IcyDeadPeople

What exactly is asset control PVP?

Solariken

Very insightful post, OP. While I don't agree with everything, you gave very thorough feedback.

I support the idea of giving all players maximum mount speed in Cyrodiil.

I support the idea of easing choke points. I appreciate the value of choking the map, but funneling players into a choke point that is literally the size of a doorway (F&#$ing Alessia bridge) is simply ludicrous.

Regarding inventory, I think they should add another special/separate inventory bag for subscribers that holds siege and furniture.

Proc gear damage is a little less egregious than it was last patch, but there are a few individual sets that still need to be adjusted (Tremorscale, Selene, Viper, a few more). Honestly they should all behave a little more like Nerien'eth and Stormfist, which look very cool, deal nice damage, and are reliable in PvE but allow players to react in PvP.

buttaface

[/quote] Except by terming it 'assinchair' time you imply that you deserve it now. You gave that attitude.[/quote]

Wrong. I use the term "assinchair" time to denote advantages people get ingame merely due to the TIME they are ingame, not any reasonable effort or skill used in acquiring advantages (others call these "timegates"). As a matter of objective fact, and not opinion, the mount system in ESO, where you merely log in and click a button every day, is the very definition of "assinchair" time. Asking that all players receive the benefit of a timegate in order to not be severely handicapped in PvP is -not- expressing a "have it now" mentality in the ways irrational fanbois with their irrational language generally use that weak, empty phrase (one phrase among many in the weak, irrational fanboi lexicon... see for example their misuse of "meta.")

buttaface

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

What exactly is asset control PVP?

Where players compete over control of assets (keeps, mines, scrolls, etc.) instead of mere scoring arenas and the like.

WhiteMage

I only really disagree about standardizing everything equipment-related. Well, in a sense. Some games decide to balance combat by making every player have equal stats everywhere. Those kinds of games don't really hold my interest. I'd much rather have the opportunities to boost one set of stats at the expense of others in order to better fit my playstyle. This requires quite a bit more balancing and effort, and though I don't expect Wrobel to be able to balance this really well, I think it is the ideal we should strive for.

If standardizing equipment means that every set is on a level playing field through their own unique, perfect-imbalance, then I am behind that. Just compare Ashen Grip to Burning Spellweave. Nuff said.

rimmidimdim

Great post from a new player in PvP. Nice! All good points though I don't agree with all. They all have merit.

Mount skill increase timer is the problem. They have that to frustrate players into spending real money. Dirty.

Choke points are not enjoyable. I agree. But they might be needed. I'm on the fence.

Keep size too big? Maybe. Maybe too many keeps. I'm not sure.

Monster sets are not hard to obtain anymore. Overland sets easy to get. Some hard dungeons make certain farming hard, but those are not OP. Sets give people a chance to play different and come up with new ideas and have fun. I've had lots of fun farming with friends. Without PvP alot of sets wouldn't be farmed.

Otherwise I agree. Hope zos takes your ideas to thought. Ty. Cheers.

AhPook_Is_Here

buttaface wrote: »

Some feedback from an ESO PvP newb and 15 year Asset Control PvP vet going all the way back to Shadowbane and Anarchy Online... in case you want more people to pvp in this game and not complain about it.

1. Improve and flesh out the tutorial far more. Remove the "I don't need training" dialog option for example, which anyone who has played an MMO can take as a common and unwanted tutorial skip option, and so won't start the quest but think they have. This happened to me and I ran around aimlessly, needlessly for awhile. Replace with some other dialog.

Using siege engines is simple. PLACING them, and knowing where to place and use them is trickier. This aspect should be fleshed out far more in the tutorial. In general, the tutorial needs lots more meat in it. For example, have a nonfunctional keep with sample engines and a tour of the keeps and various structures, maybe even fake enemies. Needs lots of work given the complexity of the overall system. Steep learning curve and not much guidance in the tutorial.

2. Streamline inventory bloat. Simplify various repair kits into one generic kit that works on engines, walls and doors. I almost left the zone before even starting when I saw all the various needless complexity in various doodads, most that don't stack. Can only imagine what nonsubscribers (who might -become- subscribers) without the craft bag think when they see all the needless, unstacking categories. If I weren't a subscriber would have left the zone instantly, never to return.

On that note, streamline the siege engines. Sell -one- type of each engine and then allow players to customize or "load" them with different stuff. Several ways to do this. Allow them to STACK, maybe 5 or so to prevent spam (although I can't figure out why things like this don't stack in a game this old to start with), but the lack of stacking almost made me leave before even starting.

3. Go ahead and tell people that they are at a severe disadvantage and will be ganked due to trailing behind if they don't have a trained up mount, even with speed buff. Fix this by equalizing all mount speeds in Cyro or have newer players leave and never come back when they realize the distances and how slow they ride and how long to get anywhere, even with the speed buff. Players shouldn't have to wait 60 freaking days to be able to keep up in the pvp zone.

4. Clean up at least 50% or more of the terrain chokepoints on the map. It's way overdone and extremely annoying in the zone. Believe me, people will still find plenty of places to gank without your huge helping hand in this department.

5. The keeps are way outsized big. Scale them down significantly. This is a fantasy game, not a medieval war simulation.

6. Add more fast travel mechanisms to the game mode and map. Some type of summoning, or allow "travel to player" within reason. The immense travel times were cool, or at least tolerable in 2000 at the inception of MMOs, they aren't now. Spending 50% of your time riding is not a recipe for good pvp that people will stick with, especially busy people with jobs who have limited playtime. Kids still in school may be fine with it... but then again they don't have as much money to spend in your crown store, do they?

7. I died numerous times and got the kill blow on lots of folks, which is part of the fun. What is -not- fun is seeing absurd amounts of monster set damage pop up in the deathscreen of the supposed "no CP equalizer" zone when I haven't been playing long enough to have that stuff. Disallow monster sets in the no CP campaigns. On that note, and this will draw lots of flames from the assinchair crowd always seeking unfair advantage, if you REALLY want a successful pvp zone that people like to play, STANDARDIZE lots of the gear, consumes, in a single campaign. Then skill and not gear will win, which is what lots of casual adult pvpers who haven't played the game a year would --subscribe- for. It's within the spirit of your One Tamriel experiment, why not have a zone like that. Much easier to balance for that as well.

It's a great foundation for a pvp system, but needs lots of polish and streamlining to bring in more people who feel the playing field is level.

Oh, finally, with your 4x4x4 upcoming system, make it too complex and it -will- flop. Go back and check out the very basic arena maps from games like Guild Wars One that were hugely successful, and don't go down the route of a bunch of fancy maps and complicated scripts. You want working people with limited time to feel they can hop in and get fast, random fights, not complicated "stand on the buttons to fight for the switch that opens the gate that drops the bomb that releases the monster" overscripted BS that I've seen fail in many fail games. Add complexity later, start simple.

I'll be back to Cyrodiil once I've trained up my horse for another MONTH or so... if I haven't gotten bored of waiting and flipped the unsubscribe switch by then that is.

Ah the days of yama dropping with kel's in 2HO.

Derra

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I am also one for not giving everyone the same mount speed, cp, stats etc when it comes to pvp .. PVP is all about the time you put into the game and gear you choose with what race.

while i agree to some degree - i think the CP system is too much of a grind realisticly. ideally a game should encourage new players to start and invest time because it´s worthwhile - but still have long term goals to strive for.

buttaface wrote: »

As far as chokepoints, the map now has a very mazelike feel to it because of so many unnecessary hills, bridges and structures. It is a pet peeve of mine in games when I feel I am being run through a terrain maze instead of moving through a world, in pve or pvp. I believe many feel the same way, and this has been a peeve of mine with Bethesda games all the way back, that seems to have carried over into ZOS. Maybe same people designing the mazes. Surely there is some balance between a flat plain with minimal terrain (which worked very well in other PVP asset games, and the maze now.

I think the main reason for zos mapdesign is that ranged combat isn´t actually ranged combat and has been in no mmo i´ve played (only western mainstream ones) since 2005.
If you were to fight on truely wide and open plains people would realize that their "ranged combat" is actually less range than an 8 year old can throw a stone.

I think cyrodiil is absolutely terrific in terms of mapdesign. It does have quite a few open spaces aswell - you just never see those unless theres fights between nikel and roebeck.
The problem is the donut of death formed by the emperor keeps and the chalman bleakers, ash nikel walls and alessia sejanus bridge.
Tear down the walls and build a second bridge (aswell as remove the towers on it).
Connect IC toplevels to the mainland to act as a shortcut. Voila a lot of the map issues are solved.

Vizier

They should make it necessary to break through the choke points with gates that are reparable only when the near keep isn't under siege.