My problems with House Telvanni in the upcoming Morrowind chapter

mesmerizedish

MythicEmperor wrote: »

mesmerizedish wrote: »

There is absolutely no connection between Tel Vos's stone underpinnings and Aryon's relative altruism. You're gonna have to actually articulate some basis if you want me to accept that

My bad; I thought the connection was quite obvious. Allow me to elaborate.

Everything about Tel Vos, from its geographic location to its architecture, is a display of Aryon's young and open-minded nature.

1. Tel Vos, besides Tel Uvirith, is the only Telvanni tower not on an island (presumably, the player takes after his/her patron). This defies tradition.

2. Tel Vos is pushed further than what was typically thought to be the Telvanni's sphere of influence on Vvardenfell. This shows his eagerness to push further and change what is established.

3. As I said previously, Tel Vos was grown over an Imperial fort. How does this display his relative altruism? It is the perfect display of his open mindedness. His willingness to push and change what was thought of as traditional led him to his unique tower. If you judge the tower's stone base in a vacuum, it can make it seem normal. If, however, you pay attention to the tower's other qualities that I discussed, along with dialogue in-game and his great support of the player (while the other masters cared little), one can infer that the tower's design was meant as a statement about Aryon's personality.

This is why I have a problem with the new design. Tel Vos was a symbol of progress; it was a break from tradition. If all old Telvanni structures were built in this fashion, however, it makes Tel Vos the traditional tower. It makes little sense, which is why I said they are missing the point.

Alright, that's actually well-reasoned, and I appreciate you laying out your bases here.

I entirely disagree, but I find your argument very interesting nonetheless .

I'll just say I think you're ascribing more significance to things than those things merit. Much of this is speculative, so allow me to speculate a bit as well and suggest that there are many Telvanni towers on the mainland which are not on islands. Further (and I admit that this is begging the question a bit, as I'm relying on the premise that non-freestanding towers like Tel Vos are not unique, but I believe it can help put Tel Vos in the context of this new information), I'd argue that what makes Tel Vos unique is that it's built around an Imperial tower, not that it's built around any stone framework. I don't super accept that "expand the house's sphere of influence" equates to "look how willing I am to break with tradition."

I also do not accept that building a tower in the ruins of an even older tower is particularly indicative of a forward-thinking mindset. Pragmatic, even flexible, yes, but not progressive. I'm more inclined to believe that Aryon, younger and less powerful, but still desiring the appearance of grandeur, didn't want to live in a little pod and grew Tel Vos around those ruins because it required less effort than growing a freestanding tower. At this point, however, our competing interpretations are really only based on guesswork .

MythicEmperor

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

mesmerizedish wrote: »

so they played around with the ideas a bit.

That right there is what annoys me about game developers, they can never help themselves.

@R1ckyDaMan yeah, developers just can't help being creative with a desire to make something interesting and different

i can't believe it either

The saying if it isn't broken don't fix it comes to mind.
And creative, more stone walls yay!

Yeah, I've had about enough of stone walls. Mournhold in Morrowind was all stone, but it was a single city. That was diverse in a game where every faction had their own architecture. In ESO, however, it is all you see.

Phica_Lovic

This game is a prequel. So for the houses, the helms, and pretty much every other occurence - it is possible that they simple haven't happened yet...

WhiteCoatSyndrome

This was posted by @Faulgor in another thread but I believe has relevance here:

Faulgor wrote: »

In this concept art, you can also see how the stone tower eventually crumbles away as the mushrooms grow.

Vanthras79

OP, I felt the same way. Oh did they botch this lore job. They are going to have to explain how towers with fungus transition into pure fungus-made towers lore-wise. Perhaps maybe a quest or a n NPC encounter can remedy an idea of a total fungus tower?

This really ticked me off. But if they can smooth out the edges via more lore, I may be okay with that.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

thebattlesaintb14_ESO wrote: »

700 years between the two. Maybe the Telvanni scum are just starting to plant their infernal shrooms.

Seriously, enough with the "hurr durr makes it look like morrowind!! or I'll be triggered" ESO is not morrowind. ESO isn't even 3rd age.

Give it a rest.

Telvanni Scum? you do realize them and the Psjiic Order are the 2 most powerful faction of wizards in Tamriel, infact every single member of the Telvanni is likely to be more powerful then your character is.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Give it a rest.

Telvanni Scum? you do realize them and the Psjiic Order are the 2 most powerful faction of wizards in Tamriel[/quote]

Lies, the Telvanni are nothing compared to the high mages of Summerset!

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Also people must remember not everything you see in this game should be considered "Canon" Need I remind people why?

- The Imperial City is Rotated 90* the wrong way.

- Cropsford existing despite being founded by the Champion of Cyrodiil.

- Black Briar Mead existing despite its patriarch not yet being born.

- Corprus Stalkers existing within the Dragonstar Arena despite Corprus not existing yet.

- The fact that hundreds of books that haven't even been written yet exist

- The complete absence of the city of Almalexia despite Mounrhold existing

- The complete absence of the Throat of the World despite Ivarstead existing

- The fact that some places such as Anvil and Sedya Neen which look identical to their Oblivion and Morrowind Counterparts despite 700+ years having passed, this shows no signs of development and the fact is the buildings in Sedya Neen specially wouldn't of lasted that long.

The whole Telvanni Stone tower thing like everything I just mentioned should just be taken with a grain of salt.

Browiseth

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

mesmerizedish wrote: »

so they played around with the ideas a bit.

That right there is what annoys me about game developers, they can never help themselves.

@R1ckyDaMan yeah, developers just can't help being creative with a desire to make something interesting and different

i can't believe it either

The saying if it isn't broken don't fix it comes to mind.
And creative, more stone walls yay!

@R1ckyDaMan what if it is broke

i mean, morrowind is a pretty broken game, so it's not too far fetched to say the walls are too

Tyrobag

I'm not crazy about it either. However one could argue that since the mushrooms eventually fully consume the tower anyway, after time most of the older towers have been entirely consumed by the 3rd era. Any newer towers may have been purposely grown without any stone structure because the resident Telvanni wanted to appear more powerful, and eventually the practice of basing on a stone tower died off. It is a slight lore discrepancy, but can be explained without making too much of a stretch.

MythicEmperor

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Also people must remember not everything you see in this game should be considered "Canon" Need I remind people why?

- The Imperial City is Rotated 90* the wrong way.

- Cropsford existing despite being founded by the Champion of Cyrodiil.

- Black Briar Mead existing despite its patriarch not yet being born.

- Corprus Stalkers existing within the Dragonstar Arena despite Corprus not existing yet.

- The fact that hundreds of books that haven't even been written yet exist

- The complete absence of the city of Almalexia despite Mounrhold existing

- The complete absence of the Throat of the World despite Ivarstead existing

- The fact that some places such as Anvil and Sedya Neen which look identical to their Oblivion and Morrowind Counterparts despite 700+ years having passed, this shows no signs of development and the fact is the buildings in Sedya Neen specially wouldn't of lasted that long.

The whole Telvanni Stone tower thing like everything I just mentioned should just be taken with a grain of salt.

I agree, and if Seyda Neen is identical, it would make even more sense for Sadrith Mora to be, too. I just wish that they took better care when creating things and would refrain from changing what didn't need to be changed. While the game was confirmed as canon long ago, there are many things that shouldn't be there and don't fit, as you mentioned.

MythicEmperor

Browiseth wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

mesmerizedish wrote: »

so they played around with the ideas a bit.

That right there is what annoys me about game developers, they can never help themselves.

@R1ckyDaMan yeah, developers just can't help being creative with a desire to make something interesting and different

i can't believe it either

The saying if it isn't broken don't fix it comes to mind.
And creative, more stone walls yay!

@R1ckyDaMan what if it is broke

i mean, morrowind is a pretty broken game, so it's not too far fetched to say the walls are too

How is Morrowind a "broken game"? If by "broken", you mean beautifully handcrafted with superb writing and story and excellent characters and lore, then yes. If not, then Oblivion and Skyrim must be naught but ash in an ancestral tomb...

MythicEmperor

Tyrobag wrote: »

I'm not crazy about it either. However one could argue that since the mushrooms eventually fully consume the tower anyway, after time most of the older towers have been entirely consumed by the 3rd era. Any newer towers may have been purposely grown without any stone structure because the resident Telvanni wanted to appear more powerful, and eventually the practice of basing on a stone tower died off. It is a slight lore discrepancy, but can be explained without making too much of a stretch.

My question is... Why? Why did it need to be changed? People shouldn't be forced to come up with theories on how something should be feasible. No-one complained that they wanted more stone buildings. Not a soul, or for my fellow vestiges, not a... Ehrm... I'll figure it out later. Anyways, I just don't see why this change was needed. The towers were perfect the way they were, imho. Low-res and all, I still love them with every fiber of my being.

Browiseth

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

mesmerizedish wrote: »

so they played around with the ideas a bit.

That right there is what annoys me about game developers, they can never help themselves.

@R1ckyDaMan yeah, developers just can't help being creative with a desire to make something interesting and different

i can't believe it either

The saying if it isn't broken don't fix it comes to mind.
And creative, more stone walls yay!

@R1ckyDaMan what if it is broke

i mean, morrowind is a pretty broken game, so it's not too far fetched to say the walls are too

How is Morrowind a "broken game"? If by "broken", you mean beautifully handcrafted with superb writing and story and excellent characters and lore, then yes. If not, then Oblivion and Skyrim must be naught but ash in an ancestral tomb...

no, sorry. by "broken" i just mean broken and bad

i must've mispoke, i guess

MythicEmperor

Browiseth wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

mesmerizedish wrote: »

so they played around with the ideas a bit.

That right there is what annoys me about game developers, they can never help themselves.

@R1ckyDaMan yeah, developers just can't help being creative with a desire to make something interesting and different

i can't believe it either

The saying if it isn't broken don't fix it comes to mind.
And creative, more stone walls yay!

@R1ckyDaMan what if it is broke

i mean, morrowind is a pretty broken game, so it's not too far fetched to say the walls are too

How is Morrowind a "broken game"? If by "broken", you mean beautifully handcrafted with superb writing and story and excellent characters and lore, then yes. If not, then Oblivion and Skyrim must be naught but ash in an ancestral tomb...

no, sorry. by "broken" i just mean broken and bad

i must've mispoke, i guess

Would you care to elaborate?

Browiseth

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

mesmerizedish wrote: »

so they played around with the ideas a bit.

That right there is what annoys me about game developers, they can never help themselves.

@R1ckyDaMan yeah, developers just can't help being creative with a desire to make something interesting and different

i can't believe it either

The saying if it isn't broken don't fix it comes to mind.
And creative, more stone walls yay!

@R1ckyDaMan what if it is broke

i mean, morrowind is a pretty broken game, so it's not too far fetched to say the walls are too

How is Morrowind a "broken game"? If by "broken", you mean beautifully handcrafted with superb writing and story and excellent characters and lore, then yes. If not, then Oblivion and Skyrim must be naught but ash in an ancestral tomb...

no, sorry. by "broken" i just mean broken and bad

i must've mispoke, i guess

Would you care to elaborate?

this isn't a thread about morrowind's many problems and signs of poor aging

i also don't see why i'm obligated to justify why i have a different opinion to you. i just have a different opinion to you.

MythicEmperor

Browiseth wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

mesmerizedish wrote: »

so they played around with the ideas a bit.

That right there is what annoys me about game developers, they can never help themselves.

@R1ckyDaMan yeah, developers just can't help being creative with a desire to make something interesting and different

i can't believe it either

The saying if it isn't broken don't fix it comes to mind.
And creative, more stone walls yay!

@R1ckyDaMan what if it is broke

i mean, morrowind is a pretty broken game, so it's not too far fetched to say the walls are too

How is Morrowind a "broken game"? If by "broken", you mean beautifully handcrafted with superb writing and story and excellent characters and lore, then yes. If not, then Oblivion and Skyrim must be naught but ash in an ancestral tomb...

no, sorry. by "broken" i just mean broken and bad

i must've mispoke, i guess

Would you care to elaborate?

this isn't a thread about morrowind's many problems and signs of poor aging

i also don't see why i'm obligated to justify why i have a different opinion to you. i just have a different opinion to you.

If that is the case, then why bring it up in the first place?

Anyways, to get this thread back on topic, I'll grant ZOS this: It is a cool idea; it just lacks the backing of lore and gameplay. If ESO wasn't canon, then this would be neat, but it is (somehow).

I understand that ZOS wants to make new lore for the game, and that is cool, but I would just prefer if it didn't contradict what was previously established.

Taleof2Cities

While I'm not up to date on all of the Telvanni Lore, is there any reason why the Great Mages couldn't have removed the stone infrastructure by magical means ... after the mushroom tower was large enough to be stand-alone by itself??

That's how I would argue the differences in the towers between the second era and third era ...

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

While I'm not up to date on all of the Telvanni Lore, is there any reason why the Great Mages couldn't have removed the stone infrastructure by magical means ... after the mushroom tower was large enough to be stand-alone by itself??

That's how I would argue the differences in the towers between the second era and third era ...

In ES3:morrowind you actually build a Telvanni mushroom once you become a magister of House Telvanni, it starts off as a spore in the ground mixed with some soul gems and you see it slowly get bigger as you do more quests until it is complete and no stone was used in it's creation.

Browiseth

MythicEmperor wrote: »

If that is the case, then why bring it up in the first place?

Anyways, to get this thread back on topic, I'll grant ZOS this: It is a cool idea; it just lacks the backing of lore and gameplay. If ESO wasn't canon, then this would be neat, but it is (somehow).

I understand that ZOS wants to make new lore for the game, and that is cool, but I would just prefer if it didn't contradict what was previously established.

i brought it up to be the "realist" person in the room; morrowind is not some holy relic that's being desecrated with inconsistent stone walls or whatever. it's an old video game that plays and looks like doodoo today. even for the time, it's hardly an important enough game that a travesty as awful as creative freedom can sully its apparent splendor

i also have a lot of pent up aggression due to this fanbase being awful and ignorant of these things, so i'll admit to being biased or having a bit of an emotional investment to disagreeing here

MythicEmperor

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

While I'm not up to date on all of the Telvanni Lore, is there any reason why the Great Mages couldn't have removed the stone infrastructure by magical means ... after the mushroom tower was large enough to be stand-alone by itself??

That's how I would argue the differences in the towers between the second era and third era ...

In ES3:morrowind you actually build a Telvanni mushroom once you become a magister of House Telvanni, it starts off as a spore in the ground mixed with some soul gems and you see it slowly get bigger as you do more quests until it is complete and no stone was used in it's creation.

Exactly. If this wasn't the case, then I'd have no problem with the stone being removed or whatnot. The problem lies in the fact that it was never there to begin with.

Tyrobag

Browiseth wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

If that is the case, then why bring it up in the first place?

Anyways, to get this thread back on topic, I'll grant ZOS this: It is a cool idea; it just lacks the backing of lore and gameplay. If ESO wasn't canon, then this would be neat, but it is (somehow).

I understand that ZOS wants to make new lore for the game, and that is cool, but I would just prefer if it didn't contradict what was previously established.

i brought it up to be the "realist" person in the room; morrowind is not some holy relic that's being desecrated with inconsistent stone walls or whatever. it's an old video game that plays and looks like doodoo today. even for the time, it's hardly an important enough game that a travesty as awful as creative freedom can sully its apparent splendor

i also have a lot of pent up aggression due to this fanbase being awful and ignorant of these things, so i'll admit to being biased or having a bit of an emotional investment to disagreeing here

I think your mixing up being a "Realist" with being a "Jerk". Nobody disagrees that Morrwind's unmodded combat system is unplayable, but most people who love the game love it because of the lore and the amazing land that is Morrowind.

You're perfectly entitled to have the opinion that you don't like the game, but that doesn't mean you should be rude and go around insulting it and everyone who likes it.

MythicEmperor

Tyrobag wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

If that is the case, then why bring it up in the first place?

Anyways, to get this thread back on topic, I'll grant ZOS this: It is a cool idea; it just lacks the backing of lore and gameplay. If ESO wasn't canon, then this would be neat, but it is (somehow).

I understand that ZOS wants to make new lore for the game, and that is cool, but I would just prefer if it didn't contradict what was previously established.

i brought it up to be the "realist" person in the room; morrowind is not some holy relic that's being desecrated with inconsistent stone walls or whatever. it's an old video game that plays and looks like doodoo today. even for the time, it's hardly an important enough game that a travesty as awful as creative freedom can sully its apparent splendor

i also have a lot of pent up aggression due to this fanbase being awful and ignorant of these things, so i'll admit to being biased or having a bit of an emotional investment to disagreeing here

I think your mixing up being a "Realist" with being a "Jerk". Nobody disagrees that Morrwind's unmodded combat system is unplayable, but most people who love the game love it because of the lore and the amazing land that is Morrowind.

You're perfectly entitled to have the opinion that you don't like the game, but that doesn't mean you should be rude and go around insulting it and everyone who likes it.

Well, I wouldn't call it unplayable, but I can understand why many don't like it.

Browiseth

Tyrobag wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

If that is the case, then why bring it up in the first place?

Anyways, to get this thread back on topic, I'll grant ZOS this: It is a cool idea; it just lacks the backing of lore and gameplay. If ESO wasn't canon, then this would be neat, but it is (somehow).

I understand that ZOS wants to make new lore for the game, and that is cool, but I would just prefer if it didn't contradict what was previously established.

i brought it up to be the "realist" person in the room; morrowind is not some holy relic that's being desecrated with inconsistent stone walls or whatever. it's an old video game that plays and looks like doodoo today. even for the time, it's hardly an important enough game that a travesty as awful as creative freedom can sully its apparent splendor

i also have a lot of pent up aggression due to this fanbase being awful and ignorant of these things, so i'll admit to being biased or having a bit of an emotional investment to disagreeing here

I think your mixing up being a "Realist" with being a "Jerk". Nobody disagrees that Morrwind's unmodded combat system is unplayable, but most people who love the game love it because of the lore and the amazing land that is Morrowind.

You're perfectly entitled to have the opinion that you don't like the game, but that doesn't mean you should be rude and go around insulting it and everyone who likes it.

@Tyrobag
i haven't insulted anyone

I'll also just ignore the fact that you implied a piece of software has feelings that i could hurt by insulting it

i can also agree that the land of morrowind looks unique as far as fantasy settings go

Unfortunately i need to play the "game" parts of the game to see it, so, skip

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

If that is the case, then why bring it up in the first place?

Anyways, to get this thread back on topic, I'll grant ZOS this: It is a cool idea; it just lacks the backing of lore and gameplay. If ESO wasn't canon, then this would be neat, but it is (somehow).

I understand that ZOS wants to make new lore for the game, and that is cool, but I would just prefer if it didn't contradict what was previously established.

i brought it up to be the "realist" person in the room; morrowind is not some holy relic that's being desecrated with inconsistent stone walls or whatever. it's an old video game that plays and looks like doodoo today. even for the time, it's hardly an important enough game that a travesty as awful as creative freedom can sully its apparent splendor

i also have a lot of pent up aggression due to this fanbase being awful and ignorant of these things, so i'll admit to being biased or having a bit of an emotional investment to disagreeing here

I think your mixing up being a "Realist" with being a "Jerk". Nobody disagrees that Morrwind's unmodded combat system is unplayable, but most people who love the game love it because of the lore and the amazing land that is Morrowind.

You're perfectly entitled to have the opinion that you don't like the game, but that doesn't mean you should be rude and go around insulting it and everyone who likes it.

Well, I wouldn't call it unplayable, but I can understand why many don't like it.

it's very unplayable

i also want to apologise in advance if my post looks like tes:3's graphics, i'm posting from mobile and i'm terrible at it

dodgehopper_ESO

MythicEmperor wrote: »

No one else cares about Great House Telvanni's lore? N'wahs...

I really was looking forward to getting a Cephalopod helm as well. I've always wondered what those were about, and I somewhat assumed it had something to do with Telvanni mariner tradition (their islands to the east), or perhaps planar investigations (Hermaeus Mora's Daedra). The mushroom towers did look differently to me, but I hadn't examined them myself. What I saw did look beautiful although perhaps less grown than what we see in Bosmer lands which might very well be a mistake as I recall everything about the towers of the wizard-lords were all grown.

dodgehopper_ESO

MopeyHat wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

I wonder how they will explain the lack of levitation as the Levitation Act of 421 has not been passed yet.

The devs mentioned that limited levitation is available. There is what I assume to a levitation pad visible from the ESO Live stream in the base of the Telvanni towers.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

rysc wrote: »

MopeyHat wrote: »

It seems like a more natural evolution from Velothi architecture to me. Some ambitious Telvanni mage comes along after ESO, and rather than building a stone tower, skips to the fungus step entirely.

maybe its a fertilizing base structure to allow the mushroom to grow and consume, slowly replacing the "stone" with just mushroom? And by TES3 they had evolved enough to do away with the structure and just go hard core shroom?

Maybe, but to me it just seems like a pointless change that makes little sense.

It makes more sense than the ancestors of the Telvanni just randomly deciding to live in mushrooms. I mean, sure, some mage with more Sheogorathic tendencies might do it, but would a whole clan follow suit? Why not evolve the stone mage towers, which were also readily seen in TES3?

No. The Bosmer construct living homes as well in the form of the graht oaks. This is not strange for them.

dodgehopper_ESO

MythicEmperor wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Before I start, I would just like to acknowledge that yes, ESO: Morrowind has not come out yet, but based on what we've seen, House Telvanni is a bit messed up lore-wise.

My main gripe is their new design of the towers themselves. In the recent ESO live, they are simple stone towers that are overgrown with fungus. This is NOT how they were represented in Morrowind and the Dragonborn DLC for Skyrim. In TES: III, you can even grow your own tower. It involved soul gems, storm atronachs (if you used soul trap, you'll know what I mean) and a small mushroom spore that grows into a large tower (Tel Uvirith). Nowhere in any previous source do the Telvanni resort to generic stone towers like the commoners. They are built by and sustained purely by magic. Also, the spores themselves are a bit over the top (they do not resemble mushroom stems), but that is purely subjective and I can easily live with that.

They probably haven't developed the techniques for growing those towers yet. Remember this is about 800 years prior to Morrowind.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

This is no disrespect to the design team. It looks beautiful. It is the new lore that I take issue with, not your amazing craftsmanship.

My second and more minor issue is the Telvanni guards. Why are they wearing Redoran Watchmen helms? What happened to the amazingly cool and unique Telvanni cephalopod helms that are seen on Telvanni guards (and my Telvanni archmagister!) in Morrowind? It makes little sense for the Telvanni to adapt the design from House Redoran, or vice versa.

Again, they probably haven't come up with that distinctive design yet. The Redoran helms are probably just more traditional dunmer helms that in this time period were used by many houses, and Telvanni later came up with a distinct design to use that would make them easily distinguishable.

1. The devs made it fairly clear that the towers take hundreds of years to develop. How then do they magically change in structure in that short time? (These are powerful wizards, remember; Divayth Fyr is rumored to be 4000 years old)

2. This just seems lazy to me. Why change it with no real reason?

I reckon Divath Fyr might actually be more powerful than Vivec, and just doesn't care about the adulation.

dodgehopper_ESO

mesmerizedish wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

mesmerizedish wrote: »

There is absolutely no connection between Tel Vos's stone underpinnings and Aryon's relative altruism. You're gonna have to actually articulate some basis if you want me to accept that

My bad; I thought the connection was quite obvious. Allow me to elaborate.

Everything about Tel Vos, from its geographic location to its architecture, is a display of Aryon's young and open-minded nature.

1. Tel Vos, besides Tel Uvirith, is the only Telvanni tower not on an island (presumably, the player takes after his/her patron). This defies tradition.

2. Tel Vos is pushed further than what was typically thought to be the Telvanni's sphere of influence on Vvardenfell. This shows his eagerness to push further and change what is established.

3. As I said previously, Tel Vos was grown over an Imperial fort. How does this display his relative altruism? It is the perfect display of his open mindedness. His willingness to push and change what was thought of as traditional led him to his unique tower. If you judge the tower's stone base in a vacuum, it can make it seem normal. If, however, you pay attention to the tower's other qualities that I discussed, along with dialogue in-game and his great support of the player (while the other masters cared little), one can infer that the tower's design was meant as a statement about Aryon's personality.

This is why I have a problem with the new design. Tel Vos was a symbol of progress; it was a break from tradition. If all old Telvanni structures were built in this fashion, however, it makes Tel Vos the traditional tower. It makes little sense, which is why I said they are missing the point.

Alright, that's actually well-reasoned, and I appreciate you laying out your bases here.

I entirely disagree, but I find your argument very interesting nonetheless .

I'll just say I think you're ascribing more significance to things than those things merit. Much of this is speculative, so allow me to speculate a bit as well and suggest that there are many Telvanni towers on the mainland which are not on islands. Further (and I admit that this is begging the question a bit, as I'm relying on the premise that non-freestanding towers like Tel Vos are not unique, but I believe it can help put Tel Vos in the context of this new information), I'd argue that what makes Tel Vos unique is that it's built around an Imperial tower, not that it's built around any stone framework. I don't super accept that "expand the house's sphere of influence" equates to "look how willing I am to break with tradition."

I also do not accept that building a tower in the ruins of an even older tower is particularly indicative of a forward-thinking mindset. Pragmatic, even flexible, yes, but not progressive. I'm more inclined to believe that Aryon, younger and less powerful, but still desiring the appearance of grandeur, didn't want to live in a little pod and grew Tel Vos around those ruins because it required less effort than growing a freestanding tower. At this point, however, our competing interpretations are really only based on guesswork .

Actually I had an entirely different view of what Aryon was doing with this Tower. Aryon chose to build his mushroom tower on top of IMPERIAL TERRITORY. Think about this. Telvanni had been breaking the law regularly to take more and more eastern territory of the island. In ancient times the Telvanni were more present in their islands to the east and of course on the mainland. The encroaching into Morrowind represents a slow and steady conquering of their will over other wills. By planting his mushroom on the Imperial fort he is essentially laying claim to new territory and defying weakening powers-that-be. It is symbolic. Likewise, I would argue that Tel Uvirith is symbolic. The great Hortator, the Nerevarine claims the Mushroom Tower deepest into any territory they had thus far acquired on the Island of Morrowind. I find that particularly interesting and symbolic, while simultaneously helping to acquire greater power and lands on behalf of the House. This is how I viewed these things from TES:3

starkerealm

MythicEmperor wrote: »

thebattlesaintb14_ESO wrote: »

...the Telvanni scum...

Scum? SCUM????

Yeah, that's a pretty good term for the cadre of necromancers, slavers, and 'shroom addicts we've come to know and loathe.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Where was the Tribunal when the Akaviri slaughtered my family?

._.

Er, what?

Have you considered the possibility that the Tribunal just doesn't like necromancers? Or that Almalexia doesn't think she should need to protect your family, when you're just going to raise them later?

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Browiseth wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

If that is the case, then why bring it up in the first place?

Anyways, to get this thread back on topic, I'll grant ZOS this: It is a cool idea; it just lacks the backing of lore and gameplay. If ESO wasn't canon, then this would be neat, but it is (somehow).

I understand that ZOS wants to make new lore for the game, and that is cool, but I would just prefer if it didn't contradict what was previously established.

i brought it up to be the "realist" person in the room; morrowind is not some holy relic that's being desecrated with inconsistent stone walls or whatever. it's an old video game that plays and looks like doodoo today. even for the time, it's hardly an important enough game that a travesty as awful as creative freedom can sully its apparent splendor

i also have a lot of pent up aggression due to this fanbase being awful and ignorant of these things, so i'll admit to being biased or having a bit of an emotional investment to disagreeing here

Looks like doodoo does it?