The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
stealing and assassinations have gotten absurdly out of hand
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Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It's worrisome to me that we've been fed similar lines about housing and how it's initial implementation is "just laying the groundwork and to expect it to be expanded going forward." I'm not holding my breath.
Housing does not now, nor has it ever even been implied that it will have a PvP component. Housing will be expanded on as it relates to housing. Not some vain desire for open world PvP."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭BlackSparrow wrote: »As one of the dirty, dirty thieves... yep, I wouldn't protest to this, provided it was implemented correctly. There's a lot of potential for griefing (For example, camping refuge entrances would not be hard, and would pretty much break the system).
I have to agree. These assassins are clearly out of hand. They keep killing all my good pickpocket targets!
You solve this by making stealth work on players in cities then, just like it does now in PvP. If you're well hidden even if the people spot you, you ought to be close enough to the refuge to escape.
Let's see. The outlaw is trying to get to the outlaw refuge, which means he has to go to one of only two, very small, very specific, clearly marked and easily defensible locations in any given town with said refuge. No way a griefer could possibly stop him if he's crouching! /sarcasm"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."3 -
LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's worrisome to me that we've been fed similar lines about housing and how it's initial implementation is "just laying the groundwork and to expect it to be expanded going forward." I'm not holding my breath.
Housing does not now, nor has it ever even been implied that it will have a PvP component. Housing will be expanded on as it relates to housing. Not some vain desire for open world PvP.
I meant that we've been told that the initial implementation of the housing system will lead to iterations and improvements over time. Just like we were told about with the justice system. It didn't happen there and that makes me worry it's not gonna happen in this instance with housing either.NerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/160 -
LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
✭BlackSparrow wrote: »As one of the dirty, dirty thieves... yep, I wouldn't protest to this, provided it was implemented correctly. There's a lot of potential for griefing (For example, camping refuge entrances would not be hard, and would pretty much break the system).
I have to agree. These assassins are clearly out of hand. They keep killing all my good pickpocket targets!
You solve this by making stealth work on players in cities then, just like it does now in PvP. If you're well hidden even if the people spot you, you ought to be close enough to the refuge to escape.
Let's see. The outlaw is trying to get to the outlaw refuge, which means he has to go to one of only two, very small, very specific, clearly marked and easily defensible locations in any given town with said refuge. No way a griefer could possibly stop him if he's crouching! /sarcasm
Simple flag the area around the refuge entrance as a "safe zone". If guard players get within a certain radius of a refuge entrance they're completely silenced within that area. Or make it so once the outlaw player gets within the "safe zone" they can't be seen by a guard at all. I mean if you've been to Cyrodiil you know that it's not that difficult to hide from players. Especially considering you're legit invisible to them while crouching unless you're pretty much on top of them.
As it stands now there is very little risk involved in doing the outlaw thing. Inconvenience? Sure. But there's very little actual risk. Guards are extremely easy to get away from, even more so if you're playing a character built or geared for sneaking around.
I haven't seen any points made against making good on their word and bringing in the law side of the justice system that we were promised. Most of the concerns are easily addressed or people who apparently are terrible outlaws who are afraid they would always be running from players. When previously it was stated by ZOS that "guard" players would only be allowed to attack outlaws who have enough hear to be flagged as KOS.
The only concern I think is legitimate is potential server performance issues. Which are valid to an extent, though I don't think it'd end up being any more of an impact on the server's than dueling.NerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/160 -
NatalyaPeterovna✭✭✭BRING OUT YOUR DEAD lolEdited by NatalyaPeterovna on February 20, 2017 9:44AM1 -
Knootewoot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭People wanted a TES game and this is part of it. If I load my saved game in Skyrim every town is a ghost town and the corpses are piled up in the middle of the street. And I served my sentence, cleared my bounty and can just walk around no problem.
The only difference is, in skyrim I had to go to jail.
It's part of the TES series. Deal with it. I love the stealing and murdering to be possible. Although not a murdered myself normally, I was once "hate whispered" because I looted a NPC dry and didn't kill him. I do not want to make to much enemies so I kill the NPC's now.٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶
"I am a nightblade. Blending the disciplines of the stealthy agent and subtle wizard, I move unseen and undetected, foil locks and traps, and teleport to safety when threatened, or strike like a viper from ambush. The College of Illusion hides me and fuddles or pacifies my opponents. The College of Mysticism detects my object, reflects and dispels enemy spells, and makes good my escape. The key to a nightblade's success is avoidance, by spell or by stealth; with these skills, all things are possible."0 -
Duiwel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some of us do not have bounties OP...
Yet we answer every black sacrament.
Sithis shall have blood.@Duiwel:Join ORDER OF SITHIS We're recruiting! PC EU"Dear Brother. I do not spread rumours. I create them..."0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The only solution I will accept is not implementing it at all. On a practical level, Cyrodiil is already plagued with addons that detect when people are stealthed near you. Creating a "safe zone" around the entrance won't do squat.
Frankly though, this is about more than elements of PvP intruding on PvE. The real problem I have with PvP is the PvP community. It's completely saturated with people who make the elitists in the PvE community pleasant by comparison. If you want to kill some aspect of PvE, you make it PvP. IC should have taught you that much. If the endless frustration of just trying to complete simple tasks doesn't drive people away, the griefing and teabagging and other related nonsense will. It's bad enough just trying to get to the wayshrine in some cities without some joker challenging everyone to a duel."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."1 -
LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
✭Knootewoot wrote: »People wanted a TES game and this is part of it. If I load my saved game in Skyrim every town is a ghost town and the corpses are piled up in the middle of the street. And I served my sentence, cleared my bounty and can just walk around no problem.
The only difference is, in skyrim I had to go to jail.
It's part of the TES series. Deal with it. I love the stealing and murdering to be possible. Although not a murdered myself normally, I was once "hate whispered" because I looted a NPC dry and didn't kill him. I do not want to make to much enemies so I kill the NPC's now.
And this is an online world with other players who can be heroes, thieves, crafters, assassins, monster hunters, spies, soldiers, merchants, etc. In Skyrim immersion was king. It's pretty jarring to see bodies and bodies piled up or see someone stealing and not being able to do a damned thing to stop it. That is the type of thing that reeks of partial implementation (which is exactly what it is) and pulls you out of the experience quite a bit. ESO has the potential to be a far more dynamic, immersive world than Skyrim ever dreamed. Implementing more organic and sandbox style elements such as getting the "justice" portion of the justice system would go a very long way towards that.
Also as a side-note: NPC inventory is not shared. If you empty their pockets it's only empty for you, nobody else. So killing NPCs after you clean them out actually is taking potential stolen items away from people. My buddies troll me with that sometimes and it's annoying AF.Edited by LtCrunch on February 20, 2017 10:14AMNerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/160 -
LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
✭The only solution I will accept is not implementing it at all. On a practical level, Cyrodiil is already plagued with addons that detect when people are stealthed near you. Creating a "safe zone" around the entrance won't do squat.
Frankly though, this is about more than elements of PvP intruding on PvE. The real problem I have with PvP is the PvP community. It's completely saturated with people who make the elitists in the PvE community pleasant by comparison. If you want to kill some aspect of PvE, you make it PvP. IC should have taught you that much. If the endless frustration of just trying to complete simple tasks doesn't drive people away, the griefing and teabagging and other related nonsense will. It's bad enough just trying to get to the wayshrine in some cities without some joker challenging everyone to a duel.
Then simply don't partake. Don't be a bad thief or a bad assassin. Also if as in one of my examples the safe zone silenced anybody inside of it the there is literally nothing one player could do to the other. Oh and that add-on you mentioned no longer functions. ZOS killed pretty much all of it's functionality with Homestead.
I'm pretty convinced the only reason you don't wanna see it is because you have some sort of warped image of PVP in general and don't care about the potential positive impact it could have on making the world feel dynamic, immersive and feel just a bit more like the sandbox style gameplay you'd expect to see within a TES online game. Comes off pretty selfish and short-sighted tbh.
But as you said you have no interest in it at all. Which means it shouldn't be implemented. Because screw those of us that do want it, right? If that's the case then I don't suppose there's any point in me or anybody else discussing it with you.
Edited by LtCrunch on February 20, 2017 10:13AMNerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/160 -
Knootewoot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Knootewoot wrote: »People wanted a TES game and this is part of it. If I load my saved game in Skyrim every town is a ghost town and the corpses are piled up in the middle of the street. And I served my sentence, cleared my bounty and can just walk around no problem.
The only difference is, in skyrim I had to go to jail.
It's part of the TES series. Deal with it. I love the stealing and murdering to be possible. Although not a murdered myself normally, I was once "hate whispered" because I looted a NPC dry and didn't kill him. I do not want to make to much enemies so I kill the NPC's now.
Also as a side-note: NPC inventory is not shared. If you empty their pockets it's only empty for you, nobody else. So killing NPCs after you clean them out actually is taking potential stolen items away from people. My buddies troll me with that sometimes and it's annoying AF.
They must have changed that when I was on hiatus. When released it was shared.
Anyone can confirm because now I am confused. I am pretty sure I found lots of "empty" NPC's which I didn't loot and they always have 3 loots.
Anyway, thieving and killing was a great addition for ESO.
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶
"I am a nightblade. Blending the disciplines of the stealthy agent and subtle wizard, I move unseen and undetected, foil locks and traps, and teleport to safety when threatened, or strike like a viper from ambush. The College of Illusion hides me and fuddles or pacifies my opponents. The College of Mysticism detects my object, reflects and dispels enemy spells, and makes good my escape. The key to a nightblade's success is avoidance, by spell or by stealth; with these skills, all things are possible."0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭BlackSparrow wrote: »As one of the dirty, dirty thieves... yep, I wouldn't protest to this, provided it was implemented correctly. There's a lot of potential for griefing (For example, camping refuge entrances would not be hard, and would pretty much break the system).
I have to agree. These assassins are clearly out of hand. They keep killing all my good pickpocket targets!
You solve this by making stealth work on players in cities then, just like it does now in PvP. If you're well hidden even if the people spot you, you ought to be close enough to the refuge to escape.
Let's see. The outlaw is trying to get to the outlaw refuge, which means he has to go to one of only two, very small, very specific, clearly marked and easily defensible locations in any given town with said refuge. No way a griefer could possibly stop him if he's crouching! /sarcasm
Simple flag the area around the refuge entrance as a "safe zone". If guard players get within a certain radius of a refuge entrance they're completely silenced within that area. Or make it so once the outlaw player gets within the "safe zone" they can't be seen by a guard at all. I mean if you've been to Cyrodiil you know that it's not that difficult to hide from players. Especially considering you're legit invisible to them while crouching unless you're pretty much on top of them.
As it stands now there is very little risk involved in doing the outlaw thing. Inconvenience? Sure. But there's very little actual risk. Guards are extremely easy to get away from, even more so if you're playing a character built or geared for sneaking around.
I haven't seen any points made against making good on their word and bringing in the law side of the justice system that we were promised. Most of the concerns are easily addressed or people who apparently are terrible outlaws who are afraid they would always be running from players. When previously it was stated by ZOS that "guard" players would only be allowed to attack outlaws who have enough hear to be flagged as KOS.
The only concern I think is legitimate is potential server performance issues. Which are valid to an extent, though I don't think it'd end up being any more of an impact on the server's than dueling.
First bold - Ok so are you aware that their are two DLC called DB and TG. those paid contents have daily missions and quests as well as ongoing quests that send folks to all the corners to do thefts and murders. Sometimes those quests send them to very specific areas for specific targets or very specific thefts. Those are known. it would be easy to camp out on those and thwart quest and mission progression or get easy targets for attack. Well, unless the rules allowed the thieves and thugs to commit the crime right under the nunter/enforcer's nose and not get caught... which likely wouldn't solve the initial issues anyway. Are you Ok with establishing these safe zones over all those cities and every safe box and other paid quest target too? if so, my bet is there ain't much world left for you hunter's to enforce the peace in.
Second bold - if you haven't seen any arguments against it - you aren't paying attention.
but really, have you considered how much actual risk there is in 95% of the overland questing and casual content? When's the last time you died running a daily delve? Whens the last time you died to a wolf or sabre cat mob or a bear? Whens the last time you saw someone run up a beach killing mudcrabs for a while and die from it? Well, any or all of those pose no real bounty risk - tho i do have a mudcrab bounty story - and can provide as much "rewards per hour" as the thieveing and murdering does. So the risk to reward over time is on track with the other casual content. Why then choose to raise it for injustice only?
And BTW a case to consider - PVE is where you have armor degradation on death so the constant implication that PVP is about risk and pve isn't is silly. look at the massive risk in dueling - no armor loss on dead and even a free respawn on the spot. Real risk takers there, you betcha. At least if in pve i screw up and get mauled by a bear or even if i just beat him down - i lose something - and more for a loss.
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."1 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The only solution I will accept is not implementing it at all. On a practical level, Cyrodiil is already plagued with addons that detect when people are stealthed near you. Creating a "safe zone" around the entrance won't do squat.
Frankly though, this is about more than elements of PvP intruding on PvE. The real problem I have with PvP is the PvP community. It's completely saturated with people who make the elitists in the PvE community pleasant by comparison. If you want to kill some aspect of PvE, you make it PvP. IC should have taught you that much. If the endless frustration of just trying to complete simple tasks doesn't drive people away, the griefing and teabagging and other related nonsense will. It's bad enough just trying to get to the wayshrine in some cities without some joker challenging everyone to a duel.
Then simply don't partake. Don't be a bad thief or a bad assassin. Also if as in one of my examples the safe zone silenced anybody inside of it the there is literally nothing one player could do to the other. Oh and that add-on you mentioned no longer functions. ZOS killed pretty much all of it's functionality with Homestead.
I'm pretty convinced the only reason you don't wanna see it is because you have some sort of warped image of PVP in general and don't care about the potential positive impact it could have on making the world feel dynamic, immersive and feel just a bit more like the sandbox style gameplay you'd expect to see within a TES online game. Comes off pretty selfish and short-sighted tbh.
But as you said you have no interest in it at all. Which means it shouldn't be implemented. Because screw those of us that do want it, right? If that's the case then I don't suppose there's any point in me or anybody else discussing it with you.
Oh I care about he positive impact alright. The problem is it's greatly outweighed by the negative impact. A more dynamic world? Yeah, at any moment you could be denied access to content by some jerk who thinks it's funny to gank people who are way lower level than he and haven't specifically built their characters for PvP.
Immersive?
Obviously you haven't yet realized that open world PvP of any kind is the antithesis of immersion. PvPers don't give a rat's ass about immersion. In fact, nothing is more immersion breaking than having another person randomly attack you with no warning and no chance to defend yourself when you're trying to complete some non-PvP task.
Give it up. You essentially got your PvP justice system with IC and that place is pretty much dead by comparison. I for one do NOT want to see the rest of ESO end up the same way.Edited by Glurin on February 20, 2017 10:44AM"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."1 -
Fudly_budly✭✭✭✭Daran_Cousland wrote: »
I am not, nor will I ever be in favor of any form of open world PvP content beyond Cyrodiil. Even duels are too much.
^^
I am so totally sick of dueling!! Hate it! Hate it! Hate it! Hate it! Hate it! Hate it! Hate it! Hate it! Hate it!Rule #1: RL trumps gaming.
Rule #2: True immersion is RL.
Rule #3: RL lag is wonderful.
Rule #4: People matter. Pixels do not.0 -
LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
✭BlackSparrow wrote: »As one of the dirty, dirty thieves... yep, I wouldn't protest to this, provided it was implemented correctly. There's a lot of potential for griefing (For example, camping refuge entrances would not be hard, and would pretty much break the system).
I have to agree. These assassins are clearly out of hand. They keep killing all my good pickpocket targets!
You solve this by making stealth work on players in cities then, just like it does now in PvP. If you're well hidden even if the people spot you, you ought to be close enough to the refuge to escape.
Let's see. The outlaw is trying to get to the outlaw refuge, which means he has to go to one of only two, very small, very specific, clearly marked and easily defensible locations in any given town with said refuge. No way a griefer could possibly stop him if he's crouching! /sarcasm
Simple flag the area around the refuge entrance as a "safe zone". If guard players get within a certain radius of a refuge entrance they're completely silenced within that area. Or make it so once the outlaw player gets within the "safe zone" they can't be seen by a guard at all. I mean if you've been to Cyrodiil you know that it's not that difficult to hide from players. Especially considering you're legit invisible to them while crouching unless you're pretty much on top of them.
As it stands now there is very little risk involved in doing the outlaw thing. Inconvenience? Sure. But there's very little actual risk. Guards are extremely easy to get away from, even more so if you're playing a character built or geared for sneaking around.
I haven't seen any points made against making good on their word and bringing in the law side of the justice system that we were promised. Most of the concerns are easily addressed or people who apparently are terrible outlaws who are afraid they would always be running from players. When previously it was stated by ZOS that "guard" players would only be allowed to attack outlaws who have enough hear to be flagged as KOS.
The only concern I think is legitimate is potential server performance issues. Which are valid to an extent, though I don't think it'd end up being any more of an impact on the server's than dueling.
First bold - Ok so are you aware that their are two DLC called DB and TG. those paid contents have daily missions and quests as well as ongoing quests that send folks to all the corners to do thefts and murders. Sometimes those quests send them to very specific areas for specific targets or very specific thefts. Those are known. it would be easy to camp out on those and thwart quest and mission progression or get easy targets for attack. Well, unless the rules allowed the thieves and thugs to commit the crime right under the nunter/enforcer's nose and not get caught... which likely wouldn't solve the initial issues anyway. Are you Ok with establishing these safe zones over all those cities and every safe box and other paid quest target too? if so, my bet is there ain't much world left for you hunter's to enforce the peace in.
Second bold - if you haven't seen any arguments against it - you aren't paying attention.
but really, have you considered how much actual risk there is in 95% of the overland questing and casual content? When's the last time you died running a daily delve? Whens the last time you died to a wolf or sabre cat mob or a bear? Whens the last time you saw someone run up a beach killing mudcrabs for a while and die from it? Well, any or all of those pose no real bounty risk - tho i do have a mudcrab bounty story - and can provide as much "rewards per hour" as the thieveing and murdering does. So the risk to reward over time is on track with the other casual content. Why then choose to raise it for injustice only?
And BTW a case to consider - PVE is where you have armor degradation on death so the constant implication that PVP is about risk and pve isn't is silly. look at the massive risk in dueling - no armor loss on dead and even a free respawn on the spot. Real risk takers there, you betcha. At least if in pve i screw up and get mauled by a bear or even if i just beat him down - i lose something - and more for a loss.
Well to your first point, yes I'm fully aware considering I do DB, TG and other criminal activities pretty much on a daily basis. And did you ever listen or read about how the guard system was gonna work? If a player became KOS THEN you could hunt/kill them. Not before and not if their heat dropped off or they paid their bounty.
Given that very specific state being required I don't see players spending their time waiting for people to show up in a designated area, who may or may not become KOS within close proximity to them. A good assassin/thief wouldn't get caught, so no bounty. Which means no way to become KOS. Which means no PVP.
If you make a bad judgement then you may very well end up paying the price. It would help promote GOOD stealth gameplay and not just a free reign of terror in every damned city around. The only downsides to being an outlaw are slight inconveniences. There is no risk. It's very rare that someone dies to a guard if they don't want to and usually those are new players still learning the ropes.
Your second point highlights one of my major qualms with a trend in ESO since beta. The dumbing down of almost all content. This game offers very little challenge outside of PVP, vet trials, HM trials, some vet dungeons and HM dungeons. The rest has been dumbed down to the nth degree since I started playing and it sucks. Maybe I'm the dying breed, but I like a challenge. I like when a game requires me to think, pay attention and improve my skills as a player. ESO doesn't do much of that anymore.
I miss the OG vet zones, I miss OG Doshia, I miss when Harvesters were *** tough as nails and required actual use of game mechanics to take down. Not the pansies we have now. I miss Craglorn and it's original difficulty.
Also in terms of it being in line with other content, you're probably right, however within the game world it just doesn't make any damned sense and it's one of those things that really pulls you out of the world if you can't manage to "tune it out". Which is real hard to do when everywhere you go there's a bunch of dead bodies or people being stealing right in front of your eyes. It's just not how it should be and it highlights the fact that we only ever got a portion of the "justice system". Which is an ironic name considering that we never got the justice part of the system.Edited by LtCrunch on February 20, 2017 10:53AMNerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/160 -
LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
✭The only solution I will accept is not implementing it at all. On a practical level, Cyrodiil is already plagued with addons that detect when people are stealthed near you. Creating a "safe zone" around the entrance won't do squat.
Frankly though, this is about more than elements of PvP intruding on PvE. The real problem I have with PvP is the PvP community. It's completely saturated with people who make the elitists in the PvE community pleasant by comparison. If you want to kill some aspect of PvE, you make it PvP. IC should have taught you that much. If the endless frustration of just trying to complete simple tasks doesn't drive people away, the griefing and teabagging and other related nonsense will. It's bad enough just trying to get to the wayshrine in some cities without some joker challenging everyone to a duel.
Then simply don't partake. Don't be a bad thief or a bad assassin. Also if as in one of my examples the safe zone silenced anybody inside of it the there is literally nothing one player could do to the other. Oh and that add-on you mentioned no longer functions. ZOS killed pretty much all of it's functionality with Homestead.
I'm pretty convinced the only reason you don't wanna see it is because you have some sort of warped image of PVP in general and don't care about the potential positive impact it could have on making the world feel dynamic, immersive and feel just a bit more like the sandbox style gameplay you'd expect to see within a TES online game. Comes off pretty selfish and short-sighted tbh.
But as you said you have no interest in it at all. Which means it shouldn't be implemented. Because screw those of us that do want it, right? If that's the case then I don't suppose there's any point in me or anybody else discussing it with you.
Oh I care about he positive impact alright. The problem is it's greatly outweighed by the negative impact. A more dynamic world? Yeah, at any moment you could be denied access to content by some jerk who thinks it's funny to gank people who are way lower level than he and haven't specifically built their characters for PvP.
Immersive?
Obviously you haven't yet realized that open world PvP of any kind is the antithesis of immersion. PvPers don't give a rat's ass about immersion. In fact, nothing is more immersion breaking than having another person randomly attack you with no warning and no chance to defend yourself when you're trying to complete some non-PvP task.
Give it up. You essentially got your PvP justice system with IC and that place is pretty much dead by comparison. I for one do NOT want to see the rest of ESO end up the same way.
Please detail the legitimate negative impact it would have. Because everything I've seen is either easily addressed or something along the lines of "I don't like it, therefore it should not exist!" It's pretty weak stuff.
No. The antithesis of immersion is allowing people to openly steal and murder innocents without any way for "upstanding citizens" aka "the good guy characters" to try and stop them if they're wreaking havoc and are "kill on sight".
And you say PVPers don't care about immersion. Well I guess I don't really consider myself a PVPer, but I damn sure wanna see this implemented due to its added immersion. Because it helps make ESO feel more like the sandbox games it tries to emulate and less like a theme park. The half-implemented "justice" system leaves a glaring hole. It's obvious there was supposed to be more to it, but we never got it. And probably never will, unfortunately. I shouldn't be surprised though, ZOS does that a lot actually.NerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/160 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭BlackSparrow wrote: »As one of the dirty, dirty thieves... yep, I wouldn't protest to this, provided it was implemented correctly. There's a lot of potential for griefing (For example, camping refuge entrances would not be hard, and would pretty much break the system).
I have to agree. These assassins are clearly out of hand. They keep killing all my good pickpocket targets!
You solve this by making stealth work on players in cities then, just like it does now in PvP. If you're well hidden even if the people spot you, you ought to be close enough to the refuge to escape.
Let's see. The outlaw is trying to get to the outlaw refuge, which means he has to go to one of only two, very small, very specific, clearly marked and easily defensible locations in any given town with said refuge. No way a griefer could possibly stop him if he's crouching! /sarcasm
Simple flag the area around the refuge entrance as a "safe zone". If guard players get within a certain radius of a refuge entrance they're completely silenced within that area. Or make it so once the outlaw player gets within the "safe zone" they can't be seen by a guard at all. I mean if you've been to Cyrodiil you know that it's not that difficult to hide from players. Especially considering you're legit invisible to them while crouching unless you're pretty much on top of them.
As it stands now there is very little risk involved in doing the outlaw thing. Inconvenience? Sure. But there's very little actual risk. Guards are extremely easy to get away from, even more so if you're playing a character built or geared for sneaking around.
I haven't seen any points made against making good on their word and bringing in the law side of the justice system that we were promised. Most of the concerns are easily addressed or people who apparently are terrible outlaws who are afraid they would always be running from players. When previously it was stated by ZOS that "guard" players would only be allowed to attack outlaws who have enough hear to be flagged as KOS.
The only concern I think is legitimate is potential server performance issues. Which are valid to an extent, though I don't think it'd end up being any more of an impact on the server's than dueling.
First bold - Ok so are you aware that their are two DLC called DB and TG. those paid contents have daily missions and quests as well as ongoing quests that send folks to all the corners to do thefts and murders. Sometimes those quests send them to very specific areas for specific targets or very specific thefts. Those are known. it would be easy to camp out on those and thwart quest and mission progression or get easy targets for attack. Well, unless the rules allowed the thieves and thugs to commit the crime right under the nunter/enforcer's nose and not get caught... which likely wouldn't solve the initial issues anyway. Are you Ok with establishing these safe zones over all those cities and every safe box and other paid quest target too? if so, my bet is there ain't much world left for you hunter's to enforce the peace in.
Second bold - if you haven't seen any arguments against it - you aren't paying attention.
but really, have you considered how much actual risk there is in 95% of the overland questing and casual content? When's the last time you died running a daily delve? Whens the last time you died to a wolf or sabre cat mob or a bear? Whens the last time you saw someone run up a beach killing mudcrabs for a while and die from it? Well, any or all of those pose no real bounty risk - tho i do have a mudcrab bounty story - and can provide as much "rewards per hour" as the thieveing and murdering does. So the risk to reward over time is on track with the other casual content. Why then choose to raise it for injustice only?
And BTW a case to consider - PVE is where you have armor degradation on death so the constant implication that PVP is about risk and pve isn't is silly. look at the massive risk in dueling - no armor loss on dead and even a free respawn on the spot. Real risk takers there, you betcha. At least if in pve i screw up and get mauled by a bear or even if i just beat him down - i lose something - and more for a loss.
Well to your first point, yes I'm fully aware considering I do DB, TG and other criminal activities pretty much on a daily basis. And did you ever listen or read about how the guard system was gonna work? If a player became KOS THEN you could hunt/kill them. Not before and not if their heat dropped off or they paid their bounty.
Given that very specific state being required I don't see players spending their time waiting for people to show up in a designated area, who may or may not become KOS within close proximity to them. A good assassin/thief wouldn't get caught, so no bounty. Which means no way to become KOS. Which means no PVP.
If you make a bad judgement then you may very well end up paying the price. It would help promote GOOD stealth gameplay and not just a free reign of terror in every damned city around. The only downsides to being an outlaw are slight inconveniences. There is no risk. It's very rare that someone dies to a guard if they don't want to and usually those are new players still learning the ropes.
Your second point highlights one of my major qualms with a trend in ESO since beta. The dumbing down of almost all content. This game offers very little challenge outside of PVP, vet trials, HM trials, some vet dungeons and HM dungeons. The rest has been dumbed down to the nth degree since I started playing and it sucks. Maybe I'm the dying breed, but I like a challenge. I like when a game requires me to think, pay attention and improve my skills as a player. ESO doesn't do much of that anymore.
I miss the OG vet zones, I miss OG Doshia, I miss when Harvesters were *** tough as nails and required actual use of game mechanics to take down. Not the pansies we have now. I miss Craglorn and it's original difficulty.
Also in terms of it being in line with other content, you're probably right, however within the game world it just doesn't make any damned sense and it's one of those things that really pulls you out of the world if you can't manage to "tune it out". Which is real hard to do when everywhere you go there's a bunch of dead bodies or people being stealing right in front of your eyes. It's just not how it should be and it highlights the fact that we only ever got a portion of the "justice system". Which is an ironic name considering that we never got the justice part of the system.
yes i read the original and have read tons and tons and tons since then about this way or that way and everything would be flawless because you know pvp makes it all better... over and over again.
but here is the thing... i and many others leave dead bodies all over the place without getting bounties and getting spotted by PVE folks all the frigin time. those stacking up like cordwood, quite a few were mine without a touch of bounty.
So when i see pvp justice touted as a solution for that, when i see pvp justice touted as "adding risk", when i see pvp justice empowering players to not just have to sit by and watch crimes and not do something - then i always have a hard time understanding how that when questioned always get this "no no no we would only get involved after PVE spots you and you are KOS" and hear a "nod nod wink wink say no more say no more" coming.
or are you saying that you and the rest are deliriously happy and content when you see murders that go unnoticed by PVE folks and are only wishing you could jump in when PVE criminals get that sloppy?
Really?
that what you are selling us?
Dead civie NPC bodies on bodies are Ok as long as the PVE players are quiet about it?
Really?
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."1 -
LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
✭BlackSparrow wrote: »As one of the dirty, dirty thieves... yep, I wouldn't protest to this, provided it was implemented correctly. There's a lot of potential for griefing (For example, camping refuge entrances would not be hard, and would pretty much break the system).
I have to agree. These assassins are clearly out of hand. They keep killing all my good pickpocket targets!
You solve this by making stealth work on players in cities then, just like it does now in PvP. If you're well hidden even if the people spot you, you ought to be close enough to the refuge to escape.
Let's see. The outlaw is trying to get to the outlaw refuge, which means he has to go to one of only two, very small, very specific, clearly marked and easily defensible locations in any given town with said refuge. No way a griefer could possibly stop him if he's crouching! /sarcasm
Simple flag the area around the refuge entrance as a "safe zone". If guard players get within a certain radius of a refuge entrance they're completely silenced within that area. Or make it so once the outlaw player gets within the "safe zone" they can't be seen by a guard at all. I mean if you've been to Cyrodiil you know that it's not that difficult to hide from players. Especially considering you're legit invisible to them while crouching unless you're pretty much on top of them.
As it stands now there is very little risk involved in doing the outlaw thing. Inconvenience? Sure. But there's very little actual risk. Guards are extremely easy to get away from, even more so if you're playing a character built or geared for sneaking around.
I haven't seen any points made against making good on their word and bringing in the law side of the justice system that we were promised. Most of the concerns are easily addressed or people who apparently are terrible outlaws who are afraid they would always be running from players. When previously it was stated by ZOS that "guard" players would only be allowed to attack outlaws who have enough hear to be flagged as KOS.
The only concern I think is legitimate is potential server performance issues. Which are valid to an extent, though I don't think it'd end up being any more of an impact on the server's than dueling.
First bold - Ok so are you aware that their are two DLC called DB and TG. those paid contents have daily missions and quests as well as ongoing quests that send folks to all the corners to do thefts and murders. Sometimes those quests send them to very specific areas for specific targets or very specific thefts. Those are known. it would be easy to camp out on those and thwart quest and mission progression or get easy targets for attack. Well, unless the rules allowed the thieves and thugs to commit the crime right under the nunter/enforcer's nose and not get caught... which likely wouldn't solve the initial issues anyway. Are you Ok with establishing these safe zones over all those cities and every safe box and other paid quest target too? if so, my bet is there ain't much world left for you hunter's to enforce the peace in.
Second bold - if you haven't seen any arguments against it - you aren't paying attention.
but really, have you considered how much actual risk there is in 95% of the overland questing and casual content? When's the last time you died running a daily delve? Whens the last time you died to a wolf or sabre cat mob or a bear? Whens the last time you saw someone run up a beach killing mudcrabs for a while and die from it? Well, any or all of those pose no real bounty risk - tho i do have a mudcrab bounty story - and can provide as much "rewards per hour" as the thieveing and murdering does. So the risk to reward over time is on track with the other casual content. Why then choose to raise it for injustice only?
And BTW a case to consider - PVE is where you have armor degradation on death so the constant implication that PVP is about risk and pve isn't is silly. look at the massive risk in dueling - no armor loss on dead and even a free respawn on the spot. Real risk takers there, you betcha. At least if in pve i screw up and get mauled by a bear or even if i just beat him down - i lose something - and more for a loss.
Well to your first point, yes I'm fully aware considering I do DB, TG and other criminal activities pretty much on a daily basis. And did you ever listen or read about how the guard system was gonna work? If a player became KOS THEN you could hunt/kill them. Not before and not if their heat dropped off or they paid their bounty.
Given that very specific state being required I don't see players spending their time waiting for people to show up in a designated area, who may or may not become KOS within close proximity to them. A good assassin/thief wouldn't get caught, so no bounty. Which means no way to become KOS. Which means no PVP.
If you make a bad judgement then you may very well end up paying the price. It would help promote GOOD stealth gameplay and not just a free reign of terror in every damned city around. The only downsides to being an outlaw are slight inconveniences. There is no risk. It's very rare that someone dies to a guard if they don't want to and usually those are new players still learning the ropes.
Your second point highlights one of my major qualms with a trend in ESO since beta. The dumbing down of almost all content. This game offers very little challenge outside of PVP, vet trials, HM trials, some vet dungeons and HM dungeons. The rest has been dumbed down to the nth degree since I started playing and it sucks. Maybe I'm the dying breed, but I like a challenge. I like when a game requires me to think, pay attention and improve my skills as a player. ESO doesn't do much of that anymore.
I miss the OG vet zones, I miss OG Doshia, I miss when Harvesters were *** tough as nails and required actual use of game mechanics to take down. Not the pansies we have now. I miss Craglorn and it's original difficulty.
Also in terms of it being in line with other content, you're probably right, however within the game world it just doesn't make any damned sense and it's one of those things that really pulls you out of the world if you can't manage to "tune it out". Which is real hard to do when everywhere you go there's a bunch of dead bodies or people being stealing right in front of your eyes. It's just not how it should be and it highlights the fact that we only ever got a portion of the "justice system". Which is an ironic name considering that we never got the justice part of the system.
yes i read the original and have read tons and tons and tons since then about this way or that way and everything would be flawless because you know pvp makes it all better... over and over again.
but here is the thing... i and many others leave dead bodies all over the place without getting bounties and getting spotted by PVE folks all the frigin time. those stacking up like cordwood, quite a few were mine without a touch of bounty.
So when i see pvp justice touted as a solution for that, when i see pvp justice touted as "adding risk", when i see pvp justice empowering players to not just have to sit by and watch crimes and not do something - then i always have a hard time understanding how that when questioned always get this "no no no we would only get involved after PVE spots you and you are KOS" and hear a "nod nod wink wink say no more say no more" coming.
or are you saying that you and the rest are deliriously happy and content when you see murders that go unnoticed by PVE folks and are only wishing you could jump in when PVE criminals get that sloppy?
Really?
that what you are selling us?
Dead civie NPC bodies on bodies are Ok as long as the PVE players are quiet about it?
Really?
It's less flawed than what we have now, so yes. You should be rewarded for being good at what you're doing. You should also be punished for doing poorly(this is what forces you to improve as a player). Just being able to partake in or see a player guard chasing a player outlaw through the city, trying to prevent them from getting away would add so much atmosphere and life to the game IMO. I think what we have now is just not very good for the game in terms of atmosphere, immersion or world-building. I'm not saying it's flawless or that it wouldn't need to be thoroughly tested. All I'm saying is I think it would be a big improvement to the game world.NerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/160 -
Eweroun✭✭✭✭Something needs to be done, can't walk 10 feet in a city without walking over a dozen corpses
Then again given the price of housing and furniture need some way to make a million gold.
thought you were going to say "can't walk 10 feet in a city without being chased by guards".
Was already laughing... but got disappointed...
|Lunar Lattice - Guildmaster / Fullmoon group raidlead|
|Potato Knights - former core member|
|former dd-"The Phoenix Reborn", former raidlead "Omnia Vincit /Playdead"|
clears: vCrag HM - vMoL HM - vHoF HM - vAS HM (+2) - vCR+3 - vSS HM0 -
malicia✭✭✭✭Personally, I wouldn't mind if the allowed players to attack someone who's KOS. I also wouldn't mind if players were treated similarly to NPCs in that if an "innocent" player (players without bounties, players not in restricted zones themselves) sees you, they can raise the alarm and you get a bounty. Then, sneaking should leave you invisible to players as well, though.
However, no matter how steal- and murder-happy I get, I almost never become KOS, and I seldom get bounties. My last couple of bounties were all for silly mistakes - clicking on an item instead of on a vendor when I wanted to talk to the vendor.
Those who leaves the streets full of corpses are often those who are not seen. Making people killable when KOS will result in newbies being ganked, and won't do much to reduce theft or murders.
Also, if you want murder and theft to be more immersive by means of making KOS people killable, then you have to apply it to dueling as well. Make us killable when KOS, but allow me to raise the alarm when I see people duel. If the alarm is raised or if a guard sees them, they should both get bounties, and if one is killed, the other should get a bounty for the murder he committed. That will make him KOS, chased by our immortal guards, and ganked by DB and TG fans who want a little revenge. Sounds fair?PC, EU
Not elite, not the best. Just enjoying ESO.
Not the worst either. "Casual" != "totally ignorant"
@taciti1 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Personally, I wouldn't mind if the allowed players to attack someone who's KOS. I also wouldn't mind if players were treated similarly to NPCs in that if an "innocent" player (players without bounties, players not in restricted zones themselves) sees you, they can raise the alarm and you get a bounty. Then, sneaking should leave you invisible to players as well, though.
However, no matter how steal- and murder-happy I get, I almost never become KOS, and I seldom get bounties. My last couple of bounties were all for silly mistakes - clicking on an item instead of on a vendor when I wanted to talk to the vendor.
Those who leaves the streets full of corpses are often those who are not seen. Making people killable when KOS will result in newbies being ganked, and won't do much to reduce theft or murders.
Also, if you want murder and theft to be more immersive by means of making KOS people killable, then you have to apply it to dueling as well. Make us killable when KOS, but allow me to raise the alarm when I see people duel. If the alarm is raised or if a guard sees them, they should both get bounties, and if one is killed, the other should get a bounty for the murder he committed. That will make him KOS, chased by our immortal guards, and ganked by DB and TG fans who want a little revenge. Sounds fair?
RE the bold - agree.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
Tabbycat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Perfect Assassination timing.
The NCP that loads crates onto the Lydia - "I could use a break"
Not even three seconds later, she was dead.
She got that break.
I couldn't help it. I was laughing. I watched the whole thing.
So, yeah, the assassination thing is a bit comical but as long as they are killing unimportant NPC, it really doesn't bother me.
I think allowing other players to kill players with bounties would just lead to a lot of griefing. Be glad you got dueling outside of Cyrodiil.Edited by Tabbycat on February 20, 2017 1:04PMFounder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
0.016%2 -
Cherryblossom✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not really noticed the streets full of corpses, so I have no idea what you're talking about.
0 -
Daran_Cousland✭✭✭a lot of people are complaining about the hardship this would cause, but hardship is what brings players together to solve problems. it's what builds community. for example, if griefers are a problem gets some friends to help you deal with them. you know how to make friends, don't you? MMO means massively multi-player, not massively single-player.1 -
seaef✭✭✭✭✭I'm not a fan of eliminating the mechanic anywhere, but there should be more consequence to it.
Maybe adding a trust rep that's separate from bounty. If you're caught killing too many people in a city in a certain period of time, the people start to distrust you: merchants won't sell to you, crafting stations are off-limits, etc. until you "redeem" yourself by grinding out good rep."The Illuminati are very achievement focused. It's like Xbox - only everything is hardcore."
- Kirsten Geary0 -
corrosivechains✭✭✭✭✭lol, I like how everytime the justice system is brought up, those who are against it strawman "you just want forced pvp!"
No. PvP would still be your choice, and you now have more choices on whether or not to participate in it. Why are you people who are clearly exploiting a faulty system so against choices? No one would be forcing you to steal and murder city NPC's that'd flag you in the justice system. You'd be conciously making the choice to do so.
Still, it's hilarious that those most guilty of griefing and exploitative playstyles cry the most and loudest about griefing and exploits when people suggest options to combat it."Could you post me a link to the official MMO rule book please." - clayandaudrey_ESO1 -
Rakshat✭✭✭While murdering NPCs and looting their houses is fun, fighting bounty hunters at the most random locations could be even more fun. I say bring it on!Raven Ashcrown
GM of CRIMSON MALICE
Proud member of: BATMAN BRIGADE and TEAM SUICIDE SQUAD
R.I.P. Wabbajack1 -
NocturnalGuideMe✭✭✭Some of us do not have bounties OP...
Yet we answer every black sacrament.
Sithis shall have blood.
My point exactly.
Also they made a full DLC about murder and encourage murder. The Devs performed the Sacrament O.oDar'Dek Do'Tenurr
Khajiiti Stamina Nightblade
Master Thief, Dark Brotherhood Executioner, Former Dro m'Athra Shade0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Perfect Assassination timing.
The NCP that loads crates onto the Lydia - "I could use a break"
Not even three seconds later, she was dead.
She got that break.
I couldn't help it. I was laughing. I watched the whole thing.
So, yeah, the assassination thing is a bit comical but as long as they are killing unimportant NPC, it really doesn't bother me.
I think allowing other players to kill players with bounties would just lead to a lot of griefing. Be glad you got dueling outside of Cyrodiil.
i love it when the beggar types get snarky or agitated and then...step step crouch step slice gurgle rattle - "see i didn't "just walk by" after all. you're welcome."
:-)Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."2