In defense of completionists

Wreuntzylla

tl;dr Everyone has their thing. Derailing valid completionist complaint threads by telling people over and over again how they must think and feel should be suspension worthy. ZoS, please leave completionist quit threads open as otherwise you won't receive valuable feedback on bugs, and the reason for the policy doesn't apply in this situation.



I don't understand it. I like to complete achievements, but I like to PvP 100x more. I do achievements to unlock dyes, but only because I am the main guild crafter.

However, I recognize the completionist personality is a real thing. If you have ever worked at a large business, they tend to have employees go to these team functions that include a third party vendor athat analyzes your personality. The idea is that if you know what motivates your co-employees, you can better communicate with them. There is one personality called a "builder" personality that essentially boils down to being a completionist. Apparently, that personality dominates, and includes more than 50% of the population.

MMOs are made for completionists. The "grind" people complain about is designed to keep a completionist busy like a bee until the next patch adds more. Typically, the 'add more content because I am bored' is a cry for help by a completionist. (Other personalities, like the competitor personality, typically don't care if they run the same dungeon 500x without some achievement involved, as long as they will receive accolades for 'winning' the dps race and have a variety of dungeons to choose from.)

Recently there have been threads regarding bugs or unreasonably burdensome achievements. In those threads, some posters avidly deride completionists for... being completionists, and it unfairly derails those threads. Those posters are essentially telling people they are somehow impaired because they think and feel differently than them. That should be stomped on mercilessly as it is essentially a personal attack and doesn't add to the conversation.

Why do I care? The importance of completion to a completionist recently came to the forefront of issues that impact my enjoyment of the game. A friend left the game a couple of weeks ago because of a Caldwell quest bug where if you do the silver and gold quests out of order you can't complete gold. This is a person that spent huge amounts of time in the game and regularly contributed to its health. The inability to complete for an extended amount of time (apparently a long standing bug) became such an issue for this person that it caused them to stop playing. Another friend left the game recently for the same reason, and also other reasons, but in large part due to the inability to complete. I don't understand it, but I acknowledge it exists and it's having an impact on the game as a whole.

I understand why ZoS' policy is to close threads where people announce they are leaving the game. However, this is an issue that won't ever be effectively discussed otherwise and those threads should remain open. Completionists are not like the people who make quit posts to exaggerate the importance of an issue but never actually quit. Those types of threads are a diservice to the community because they result in would-be-new-players gaining a false perception as to the state of the game. For whatever reason, completionists don't post (or even vehemently complain) until the frustration boils over and they quit. So much so that I didn't even realize that the Cadwell quest bug existed until last week, even though I read through the forums daily and interact with these completionists on a daily basis.

Alpheu5

I just want my Contraband Violet, man.

bulbousb16_ESO

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

A friend left the game a couple of weeks ago because of a Caldwell quest bug where if you do the silver and gold quests out of order you can't complete gold

This isn't completionism... this is obsessive-compulsion. You might want to urge that friend to seek help if a minor detail like that causes them to throw away something that was formerly so important to them.

Epona222

If it is me you want suspended because I disagreed with someone, just come out and say it. No need to hide it in a novella length post.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Alpheu5 wrote: »

I just want my Contraband Violet, man.

Took me three months of almost daily work to get this. Totally worth it.

Cadbury

...I wasn't aware of a Caldwell silver/gold bug. Interesting.

Kalann_Pander

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

A friend left the game a couple of weeks ago because of a Caldwell quest bug where if you do the silver and gold quests out of order you can't complete gold

This isn't completionism... this is obsessive-compulsion. You might want to urge that friend to seek help if a minor detail like that causes them to throw away something that was formerly so important to them.

You didn't get it. Everyone of us is weird in some way or another - not always visible, and not always recognized by the subject.

The Brits have summed it up pretty nicely :
“All the world is *** save thee and me, and even thou art a little ***.”

(NB : "***" meant "weird" at the time this was written)

You think they have OCDs ? Maybe you'd better find and manage your own weirdness, instead of belittling those who do so

KriHavok

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

A friend left the game a couple of weeks ago because of a Caldwell quest bug where if you do the silver and gold quests out of order you can't complete gold

This isn't completionism... this is obsessive-compulsion. You might want to urge that friend to seek help if a minor detail like that causes them to throw away something that was formerly so important to them.

To give a bit of context to being an obsessive completionist... As someone who suffers from OCD, with it running through my family, there isn't really much help at all out there for people like us. It's an incurable curse, and spreads to most (if not all) of what we do. People have it to different degrees though, and a lot of people misunderstand the disorder. Some people who say they "are OCD" about having their pencils straight on their desk very likely does not have OCD at all, it's likely that they instead are just neat about their pencils being straight. It's a curse, people can't go to work or even leave their homes because of it. Some OCD people have to check if their oven is switched off by staring at the dials for 10 minutes, then get anxious about it, worrying that they didn't check it properly, so spend the next few hours stressing over it until the worry even begins to go away, usually because the anxiety is replaced by something else that's happened since then. This really is not an exaggeration either, I live with it, and have first-hand experience of it through my family.

Sorry for going on a bit of a rant there about it, but this is pretty much the reason why people can't understand OCD, because they just can't imagine themselves in situations that we find ourselves in, like watching an oven dial for 10 minutes to check it's off then worrying about it for hours after that, when most people don't even think about it and move on after a second or two. This is what a lot of mental illnesses are like though, like with depression for example, people just think they are sad every now and then, but it's much more complex than that, and usually only people who suffer with depression can understand the true effect of it.

Don't get me wrong though, not all completionists have OCD at all, I just believe there is a separation between completionism and obsessive-completionism. As an obsessive-completionist, I strive to complete all quests, talk to every NPC, pick up every possible item in every zone, collect at least one of every item, and the difference between me and a normal completionist, is that I doubt myself a lot from the anxiety about completing everything, so I might literally engage in a conversation with a NPC and listen to the whole dialogue 6 times needlessly before my brain says I have completed it. And a regular completionist might only care about completing all achievements or all quests, whereas I care about everything across the board. To put it in perspective, I have only completed all DC zones since launch, and not even touched EP/AD/DLC zones yet.

I don't want any pity felt for me at all, nor do I expect people to understand it, but I would appreciate it if people acknowledged players like me that we do exist and shouldn't be attacked by other players for the way we play the game, for something we essentially cannot control. Neither do I expect ZOS to have us in mind when producing content, because we are a small proportion of players, and they are a business who have to focus on their target audience, so we usually end up playing around the content in the way that makes us happy. I do understand the frustration the normal completionists feel about the game though, but I urge them to remember that the game is ever-evolving, so content is released all the time, and you are free to play between now and whenever the next update comes out, meaning the gold gain should be a result of accumulative play, and the biggest gold sink that completionists should be working towards right now.

If anyone wants to talk about OCD and how it affects playing ESO, feel free to shoot me a message, as whilst I suffer from it, I do find it really interesting and by being a medical school-hopeful, this makes the topic even more important to me.

Gargath

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

I don't understand it. I like to complete achievements, but I like to PvP 100x more. I do achievements to unlock dyes, but only because I am the main guild crafter.

I also like to make achievements if they lead me to unlock cool dyes.
Like I just crafted a medium celestial armor and tested few epic dark red/venom dyes .

Cadbury

Kalann_Pander wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

A friend left the game a couple of weeks ago because of a Caldwell quest bug where if you do the silver and gold quests out of order you can't complete gold

This isn't completionism... this is obsessive-compulsion. You might want to urge that friend to seek help if a minor detail like that causes them to throw away something that was formerly so important to them.

You didn't get it. Everyone of us is weird in some way or another - not always visible, and not always recognized by the subject.

The Brits have summed it up pretty nicely :
“All the world is *** save thee and me, and even thou art a little ***.”

(NB : "***" meant "weird" at the time this was written)

You think they have OCDs ? Maybe you'd better find and manage your own weirdness, instead of belittling those who do so

Confucius say

Two wrongs don't make a right

idk

I don't see how the points OP brings up is relevant to comoletionists.

If something is bugged /bug it. Report it. Doesn't matter if one is a completist or not.

Threads are not closed for reporting a bug or because someone is a completionist. They're closed because of something else said such as the OP stating they're leaving the game. No exception should be made with that aspect of forum management.

Alpheu5

Gargath wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

I don't understand it. I like to complete achievements, but I like to PvP 100x more. I do achievements to unlock dyes, but only because I am the main guild crafter.

I also like to make achievements if they lead me to unlock cool dyes.
Like I just crafted a medium celestial armor and tested few epic dark red/venom dyes .

Fire is possibly the worst light source in the game to display dyes.

But yea, dyes are pretty much the only driving force I need to want to complete an achievement. Unless the title is really neat. Akatosh Scales Gold mmmmmm

Rouven

Are you talking about the thread with the video? That's still open?

Edit: But it had the title edited probably by the mods
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3779610/#Comment_3779610

Maybe it's not the one you are referring to.

bulbousb16_ESO

Kalann_Pander wrote: »

You didn't get it. Everyone of us is weird in some way or another - not always visible, and not always recognized by the subject...You think they have OCDs ? Maybe you'd better find and manage your own weirdness, instead of belittling those who do so

Interesting that you would trivialize a known mental disorder with a "cute" term. Thanks to the poster above for shedding more light on the challenges that some players face on a daily basis.

AlMcFly

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

tl;dr Everyone has their thing. Derailing valid completionist complaint threads by telling people over and over again how they must think and feel should be suspension worthy. ZoS, please leave completionist quit threads open as otherwise you won't receive valuable feedback on bugs, and the reason for the policy doesn't apply in this situation.

Some irrelevant stuff...

Your threads aren't being closed because you're a completionist. Nobody cares that you're a completionist. Threads are being closed because they are filled with whining, and their only purpose is to sow dissention among other players. If you've already chosen to leave the game, don't write a "manifesto" about it. Nobody cares.

Regarding achievements being "too hard" or "too easy" to obtain, I've seen a lot of threads about it that have NOT been closed. If your thread complains about achievements, but ALSO complains about the game in general and announces that you're quitting the game, it should be closed. gtfo

WhiteMage

I was surprised when people went and bashed completionist playstyles. One upon a time, I, too, was a completionist, but that stopped after my first MMO (there's just way too many things to complete but the PvP ones were impossible. You would have had to kill (and by kill I mean get the killing blow) 12500 players of a certain class, for each class, in a game with 9 classes.)... But it's still a valid playstyles, if you can call it that.

I remember in an episode of extra credits they talked about the 4 types of players. Achievers are an important group of players, and a game that really wants to be good/played with cater to all 4 types.

DenMoria

Epona222 wrote: »

If it is me you want suspended because I disagreed with someone, just come out and say it. No need to hide it in a novella length post.

Okay. It's you. I want you suspended... about 6 feet in the air with your feet bare so that I can get to work with my feather.

idk

AlMcFly wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

tl;dr Everyone has their thing. Derailing valid completionist complaint threads by telling people over and over again how they must think and feel should be suspension worthy. ZoS, please leave completionist quit threads open as otherwise you won't receive valuable feedback on bugs, and the reason for the policy doesn't apply in this situation.

Some irrelevant stuff...

Your threads aren't being closed because you're a completionist. Nobody cares that you're a completionist. Threads are being closed because they are filled with whining, and their only purpose is to sow dissention among other players. If you've already chosen to leave the game, don't write a "manifesto" about it. Nobody cares.

Regarding achievements being "too hard" or "too easy" to obtain, I've seen a lot of threads about it that have NOT been closed. If your thread complains about achievements, but ALSO complains about the game in general and announces that you're quitting the game, it should be closed. gtfo

Was not planning on posting in this thread again but he basically said what I said and more. All good.

Nestor

Funny thing about being a completionist. Who's goals are you using? Some Arbitrary set of goals created by some anonymous game developer, or ones that makes sense to you. If it's someone else's goal, why are you giving that person you don't know so much power over your life?

For example, unlocking every wayshrine in the game can be a goal, there is no achievement for it, but it is still a goal. Monster Hunter is an Achievement that is a grind, but can be fun to do. Trophy Hunter? Fuggehdabutit.

You can't complete this game, you can't win this game, you can only play this game. The Mobs respawn, the other players respawn, the campaigns get reset, the daily quests are given out each day. You can't finish this game.

Set goals that make sense to you, and strive to complete them. If they happen to be an achievement so be it. But, don't give power to some random game developer, just play the game they made the way you want to.

IcyDeadPeople

Are you guys really trying to get every achievement on each character?

alexkdd99

Lol so you somehow expect the forum mods to know which poster is a completionist in order to only allow them to post quit threads.

Is that really what you expect? I must say that is pretty far out there.

idk

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Are you guys really trying to get every achievement on each character?

Oooo yes baby.

Only had AvA lvl 50, Emporer and vMoL HM left and I was gonna be finished. Then Zos added all this housing stuff.

Dang it, housing achievements are gonna take a long time. Dagnabit.

Oh, forgive that I still need a vMoL no death run.

MLGProPlayer

This place is full of players bashing other players for their interests. If something doesn't apply to you, why even respond to the thread? Let people express their opinions. No one cares that you disagree if you don't have a horse in the race.

I couldn't give any less of a *** about achievements. But some people do care about them and I can respect that.

DenMoria

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

This place is full of players bashing other players for their interests. If something doesn't apply to you, why even respond to the thread? Let people express their opinions. No one cares that you disagree if you don't have a horse in the race.

I couldn't give any less of a *** about achievements. But some people do care about them and I can respect that.

But would this really be a forum if the entire point wasn't to attempt to bully, humiliate, criticize and "hate-on" other people's opinions, interests and comments?

I don't disagree with you, but, I wonder how new you are to forums... any forum for that matter.

Stopnaggin

Cadbury wrote: »

Kalann_Pander wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

A friend left the game a couple of weeks ago because of a Caldwell quest bug where if you do the silver and gold quests out of order you can't complete gold

This isn't completionism... this is obsessive-compulsion. You might want to urge that friend to seek help if a minor detail like that causes them to throw away something that was formerly so important to them.

You didn't get it. Everyone of us is weird in some way or another - not always visible, and not always recognized by the subject.

The Brits have summed it up pretty nicely :
“All the world is *** save thee and me, and even thou art a little ***.”

(NB : "***" meant "weird" at the time this was written)

You think they have OCDs ? Maybe you'd better find and manage your own weirdness, instead of belittling those who do so

Confucius say

Two wrongs don't make a right

But 3 rights make a left.

MLGProPlayer

DenMoria wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

This place is full of players bashing other players for their interests. If something doesn't apply to you, why even respond to the thread? Let people express their opinions. No one cares that you disagree if you don't have a horse in the race.

I couldn't give any less of a *** about achievements. But some people do care about them and I can respect that.

But would this really be a forum if the entire point wasn't to attempt to bully, humiliate, criticize and "hate-on" other people's opinions, interests and comments?

I don't disagree with you, but, I wonder how new you are to forums... any forum for that matter.

I've been foruming since online forums became a thing. MMO forums tend to be more toxic than others from my experience because people play the games for so many different reasons. Some people play dress-up. Some people compete for leader board scores. Some people want to fool around with friends. Some people role play. Some people hunt achievements. Some people chase PvP tites. And so on.

bulbousb16_ESO

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I've been foruming since online forums became a thing. MMO forums tend to be more toxic than others from my experience because people play the games for so many different reasons.

True, but the ESO forums seem to be more well-moderated and milder than some.

Wreuntzylla

Rouven wrote: »

Are you talking about the thread with the video? That's still open?

Edit: But it had the title edited probably by the mods
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3779610/#Comment_3779610

Maybe it's not the one you are referring to.

If it is, the mods locked it for at about an hour.

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

A friend left the game a couple of weeks ago because of a Caldwell quest bug where if you do the silver and gold quests out of order you can't complete gold

This isn't completionism... this is obsessive-compulsion. You might want to urge that friend to seek help if a minor detail like that causes them to throw away something that was formerly so important to them.

I think you have missed the point. They aren't throwing away what was previously most important to them, they are walking away from the game because they can't do what is most important to them.

People tend to understand that most of the population doesn't really like PvP. And if most of the population is not PvPing, they must be doing something else. And if they are doing something else, it must be important to their enjoyment. So I don't get when people discount the importance of achievements. There are achievements, running the same dungeons over and over, and... what else?

At early release, the main story lines were bugged to all get out and you couldn't advance until they fixed them. Then you would advance until the next bug, rinse and repeat. You couldn't port around everywhere at will like you can today, the mobs in a higher level zone could one shot you, sky shards were limited, and as a result the main story lines were essential for skill points. Also for experience if the grind spots were overpopulated. It drove me crazy. If they hadn't fixed the quest lines within the week, I would have left to do something else, because it stopped me from doing what I wanted to do. Reach cap level and PvP. So I get the achievement seeker point of view and don't believe it's an unhealthy mental state. It's why they play the game, if they can't do it, why play it?

AlMcFly

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

This place is full of players bashing other players for their interests.

I have a problem with this statement.

I can't speak for others, only for myself. I'm not a "soft" person. I will never ever badmouth others for their "interest" or desires. However I will NOT hesitate to badmouth someone for the way in which they choose to voice their desires or interest.

I see about 10% of the forum community acting like adults, creating threads that point out game features they disagree with, and proposing solutions.

I see about 90% of the forum community whining like children, making sensationalist knee-jerk demands and ultimatums, while providing no real construstive solutions.

If you are defending the 90%, and claiming they are simply being attacked for their "interests", and for no other reason, then you sir are either a liar or a simpleton.

bulbousb16_ESO

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

I think you have missed the point. They aren't throwing away what was previously most important to them, they are walking away from the game because they can't do what is most important to them.

I understand your distinction, thank you for correcting me. But you have also missed my point. That level of dysfunction transcends "completionism" and crosses the line into an obsessive disorder. You would serve your friend better by urging them to seek professional help rather than "fixing" the "problem" of a broken accomplishment. You could fix ESO, but your friend is going to continue to find other such issues in life and can't always deal with it by withdrawing

MLGProPlayer

AlMcFly wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

This place is full of players bashing other players for their interests.

I have a problem with this statement.

I can't speak for others, only for myself. I'm not a "soft" person. I will never ever badmouth others for their "interest" or desires. However I will NOT hesitate to badmouth someone for the way in which they choose to voice their desires or interest.

I see about 10% of the forum community acting like adults, creating threads that point out game features they disagree with, and proposing solutions.

I see about 90% of the forum community whining like children, making sensationalist knee-jerk demands and ultimatums, while providing no real construstive solutions.

If you are defending the 90%, and claiming they are simply being attacked for their "interests", and for no other reason, then you sir are either a liar or a simpleton.

How do you define "childish whining"? It's through the lens of your own opinions and biases.

The OP of that completionist video made a perfectly valid, "adult" argument yet people who don't care about achievements thought it neccessary to tell him why the way he plays the game is wrong.