Cyrodiil is strategic GvG, not BF1 or CoD

Rohamad_Ali

Eduactional Pro Zerg thread feels like a PBS PSA but without the all the annoying sponsorship commercials .

Although I have a sneaky feeling this one was brought to you in part by EG55 and the South-GA corporation .

Alpheu5

ChaosWotan wrote: »

@Browiseth,

I rather be seen as "pretentious" or even "arrogant" than interpret the main game design of Cyrodiil the way you do

The "no rule"-fighting attitude that many solo players have just shows that mixing strategic gaming and CoD playstyles was not the best idea in Cyrodiil, so far at least.

No rule attitude solo players? When the main fighting force of your alliance is trying to defend an emperor keep and a small group of enemy players starts attacking an off-keep or an adjacent town, guess who's available to start defending and delay their progress? People like me, the solo players that want to help their alliance without getting involved with people like you, the zergers.

"Skirmishers" are a real thing, and it'd be best if you actually took the time to read up on tactics of war.

Akrasjel

Yes, Cyrodil was designed as a PvP zone for organized groups to fight over territory.

Would be nice if they did some actual improvement to it in future.

zuto40

huge groups are so boring, it always goes the same way, ep and ad look at each other angrily and throw the occasional meteor until dc comes up from behind and ulti bombs one of them

Sylosi

ChaosWotan wrote: »

if you want to win the campaign.

Why would you want to win the campaign when largely it is simply decided by numbers/coverage/"nightcapping"/match manipulation, as a competitive format it is a complete joke to the point "winning" is meaningless.

Angus

Akrasjel wrote: »

Yes, Cyrodil was designed as a PvP zone for organized groups to fight over territory.

Would be nice if they did some actual improvement to it in future.

Then:
Why are there delves?
Why did ZOS make towns capturable?
Why are there small towns and keep resources set to a soloable difficulty?
Why are there pure PvE quests in towns?
Why is there Imperial City?
Why is there absolutely zero mention in game of said organized groups (the game pushes you into these for dungeons, doesn't mention them for cyrodiil), or auto-group-joining (e.g Battlefield), or support for creation and managing those organized groups (filled by addons like AutoInvite)?

Korah_Eaglecry

If you think the only way to play in Cyrodiil is with a zerg. You might not be the special snowflake strategist you think you are. Being able to hit multiple locations at once or capitalizing on an enemy zergs attention being elsewhere is one of the hallmarks of smart tactics in Cyrodiil. You can easily end an enemies run for Emperor with an attack deep behind enemy lines cutting off their ability to move unmolested on the battlefield. And you can do it with 2-4 players easily. No zerg necessary.

Theres also the tactic mentioned up above that utilizes popular routes with chokepoints to control the direction of the enemys movements. If your idea of war and battle is for two large groups to smash against each other and nothing else. You might be watching one too many war movies.

Waffennacht

The moment some one helps me become Emperor is the moment I'll care about helping other in Cyrodiil (aka never)

Berenhir

You cant compare Cyrodiil to real world warfare, because Cyrodiil Alliances do not have a real commander. Its more like a big paintball ranch without teams.

ChaosWotan

Looks like some of you have not read what I have mentioned several times earlier in this thread: all kinds of playstyles are good if they contribute to winning the campaign, but the main factor to winning is to have some kind of organised activity, like different guilds cooperating through ts and chat, in order to outmanouvre the enemy.

At least EP is not able to win the campaign through "no rule"-fighting. If the majority wants to be Jason Bourne or the lone sniper, it will not work.

Surak73

ChaosWotan wrote: »

Everyone who takes a quick look at Cyrodiil will notice that this is a siege game where the objective is to take keeps and resources. It's a strategy game, a bit similar to Company of Heroes. It's not primarily like CoD or BF1, but many treat it as it was, prb because ESO gives them the freedom to do so, instead of making strategic GvG training mandatory when entering Cyrodiil the first time.

I recognize you have many reasons on your side, but... but... running around solo with my nb is sooo nice...

IcyDeadPeople

ChaosWotan wrote: »

Everyone who takes a quick look at Cyrodiil will notice that this is a siege game where the objective is to take keeps and resources. It's a strategy game, a bit similar to Company of Heroes. It's not primarily like CoD or BF1, but many treat it as it was, prb because ESO gives them the freedom to do so, instead of making strategic GvG training mandatory when entering Cyrodiil the first time.

For example, teaching players that if they stay within the healing area of the crown/train, they will survive longer. And that stacking at crown is more important than attacking solo, if you want to win the campaign. A mandatory tutorial should also give information about installing and using TS and the Exterminatus addon.

Many solo players whine about strategy being boring, and that xv1 is lame, but then either play another game than ESO, or accept that a siege game like this was never designed to primarily be a battlefield where solo players can take keeps and resources alone. Instead, Cyrodiil is mainly a team game, like football, not skateboarding.

If you want realism or want to stay true to the game lore, you should realise that a solo player complaining about being killed by a large group in Cyrodiil is like a ninja or solo terrorist whining about how unfair, boring and unbalanced it is to get killed by a group of Samurais or a SWAT team. Yeah, it's "unbalanced', but that's real warfare, and the reason why few people in real life run around solo on a battlefield.

In real life, in a bloody conflict, everyone knows that "together we stand, divided we fall", but many players in Cyrodiil don't understand this very simple principle, or they simply refuse to follow it because it's "boring". Well, the reason it feels boring is prb because 1) you have not been in a good GvG guild using TS, 2) you think strategy games in general are boring, or 3) ESO has not provided new challenges in Cyrodiil the last two years. The last reason is a good argument, but the first two should make you think twice about the intended gameplay design of Cyrodiil.

Cyrodiil is a bit like Tour the France. You look like a fool if you start whining when others tell you that it's against the rules to use an off-road bike down the mountains. It's a team effort, and you have to stay on track. ESO, however, gives you the freedom to also be a solo player, but then you better be damn good at it and accept the environment you are playing in.

What Cyrodiil has shown us so far is that mixing strategic gamers and (casual) solo players is not working very well. When Morrowind introduces battlegrounds one can always hope that CoD players go there while strategic gamers stay in Cyrodiil.

Yes the core gameplay loop of capturing keeps involves strategy and group play, but it takes place in an open world sandbox environment. There are lots of different ways to have fun in Cyrodiil.

Some players, perhaps most, enjoy smaller battles much more than zerg vs zerg. There are some incredibly skilled players who can defeat much larger groups of enemies by themselves or in a small group. And yes, course, it also takes a different kind of skill for zerg leader to defeat the tactics of enemy zerg. What they do is challenging and I don't envy those group leaders.

Others like me enjoy hiding and killing enemy players coming out of keeps. Some enjoy doing the quests in the towns and fighting other players that appear. We have even hosted many fun dueling and battlegrounds tournaments in Cyrodiil during the years prior to the adding of the dueling system.

If I have time to play after work, I just want to hop on, wander around Cyrodiil, hide and gank enemy players or get into random smaller skirmishes. I'll certainly help out if people near me are capturing or defending a keep, but I don't enjoy participating in the large organized groups. For me the experience in the teamspeak of those kinds of groups is not fun and relaxing, but often stressful and boring. I prefer to play solo and I'm sure I will try battlegrounds, but I love this large sandbox zone where anything can happen.

Wreuntzylla

ChaosWotan wrote: »

Everyone who takes a quick look at Cyrodiil will notice that this is a siege game where the objective is to take keeps and resources. It's a strategy game, a bit similar to Company of Heroes. It's not primarily like CoD or BF1, but many treat it as it was, prb because ESO gives them the freedom to do so, instead of making strategic GvG training mandatory when entering Cyrodiil the first time.

For example, teaching players that if they stay within the healing area of the crown/train, they will survive longer. And that stacking at crown is more important than attacking solo, if you want to win the campaign. A mandatory tutorial should also give information about installing and using TS and the Exterminatus addon.

Many solo players whine about strategy being boring, and that xv1 is lame, but then either play another game than ESO, or accept that a siege game like this was never designed to primarily be a battlefield where solo players can take keeps and resources alone. Instead, Cyrodiil is mainly a team game, like football, not skateboarding.

If you want realism or want to stay true to the game lore, you should realise that a solo player complaining about being killed by a large group in Cyrodiil is like a ninja or solo terrorist whining about how unfair, boring and unbalanced it is to get killed by a group of Samurais or a SWAT team. Yeah, it's "unbalanced', but that's real warfare, and the reason why few people in real life run around solo on a battlefield.

In real life, in a bloody conflict, everyone knows that "together we stand, divided we fall", but many players in Cyrodiil don't understand this very simple principle, or they simply refuse to follow it because it's "boring". Well, the reason it feels boring is prb because 1) you have not been in a good GvG guild using TS, 2) you think strategy games in general are boring, or 3) ESO has not provided new challenges in Cyrodiil the last two years. The last reason is a good argument, but the first two should make you think twice about the intended gameplay design of Cyrodiil.

Cyrodiil is a bit like Tour the France. You look like a fool if you start whining when others tell you that it's against the rules to use an off-road bike down the mountains. It's a team effort, and you have to stay on track. ESO, however, gives you the freedom to also be a solo player, but then you better be damn good at it and accept the environment you are playing in.

What Cyrodiil has shown us so far is that mixing strategic gamers and (casual) solo players is not working very well. When Morrowind introduces battlegrounds one can always hope that CoD players go there while strategic gamers stay in Cyrodiil.

I think you are confusing strategy and tactics. Just about everything you mention is tactical.

I also don't understand why you think divided we fall applies to ESO. A majority of players are AP cows to coordinated groups and don't really slow you down at all, even when fighting other coordinated groups. In fact, using realm mates as bait for controlling engagement or as ultimate sinkholes is much more useful than having one big happy family... It's pretty difficult to convince another commander that they should run in and get ulti bombed for you, whereas pugs and soloers will do it for you without you having to ask.

ChaosWotan

I'm not against running solo, my main is a NB too in Cyr, but not solo in a group.

What I'm writing here is just a repition of what was commonly agreed upon in several of the best EP ts guilds in 2015, when Cyrodiil gaming was at its beste before IC. And the same arguments are often heard in two of the ts guilds I've been part of the last months, after I took a year pause because there was no new content except IC which just destroyed the pvp community.

And again, a train is not a zerg. A train eats zergs. A train keeps the zerg population down, for a little while at least.

PandaIsAPotato

Seraphayel wrote: »

Cyrodiil is a gigantic zerg with massive performance and balancing issues, nothing else.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Iliaz

@ChaosWotan

1) you might wanna check your facts before you call Cyrodill GvG. It is not, as other have already mentioned. GvG refers to Guild versus Guild an (sometimes unofficial) gamemode where 2 (or more) Guild/Groups fight to the death on even numbers.
Last time i checked this game didnt even have a GvG Scene.

RvR refers to Realm versus Realm, a gamemode where 2 (or more like in ESO or GW2) Servers/Realms/Alliances fight against each other. Usually over objects which award some kind of points upon defense and attack.

2) You are right that a zerg is not the same as a coordianted group/guild/train. A train however can quickly become a zerg imo, depending on the numbers. In GW2 quickly became a zerg once the number of the group approched the 30, guilds usually ran 20-25 to be the most effective while not being a zerg themselves.
In ESO due to less strict AoE caps i'd say trains usually are 8-12 members big, everything over that i'd see as a zerg.

IcyDeadPeople

ChaosWotan wrote: »

And again, a train is not a zerg.

For me the prevalence of that sort of healy zergball group is one of the most annoying aspects of Cyrodiil. I thought they were lifting AoE caps to reduce this kind of clumping together.

Dawnblade

ChaosWotan wrote: »

Looks like some of you have not read what I have mentioned several times earlier in this thread: all kinds of playstyles are good if they contribute to winning the campaign, but the main factor to winning is to have some kind of organised activity, like different guilds cooperating through ts and chat, in order to outmanouvre the enemy.

At least EP is not able to win the campaign through "no rule"-fighting. If the majority wants to be Jason Bourne or the lone sniper, it will not work.

And as others have stated, there are many other things to do in Cyradiil besides worry about the campaign.

I, and I'm sure plenty of others, could give a hoot about the campaign or the 'emperor' or whatever.

Sometimes I go to unlock skills (which shouldn't be locked behind PVP but that's a whole other issue), sometimes to collect skyshards, sometimes to complete content (dolmens / delves / IC), sometimes just because.

But I've never considered Cryadiil to be balanced competitive PVP, nor enjoyable, and so I've never gone there for the purpose of winning a campaign or whatever you all 'PVPers' consider important.

IcyDeadPeople

Iliaz wrote: »

A train however can quickly become a zerg imo, depending on the numbers. In GW2 quickly became a zerg once the number of the group approched the 30, guilds usually ran 20-25 to be the most effective while not being a zerg themselves.
In ESO due to less strict AoE caps i'd say trains usually are 8-12 members big, everything over that i'd see as a zerg.

The formula for zerg = (n + 1), where n is the number of players in your party.

Angus

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Iliaz wrote: »

A train however can quickly become a zerg imo, depending on the numbers. In GW2 quickly became a zerg once the number of the group approched the 30, guilds usually ran 20-25 to be the most effective while not being a zerg themselves.
In ESO due to less strict AoE caps i'd say trains usually are 8-12 members big, everything over that i'd see as a zerg.

The formula for zerg = (n + 1), where n is the number of players in your party.

Was all alone, went to pick a flower, got zerged down.

Wiped both of them.

Styxiii

A lot of people only care about is gaining AP and themselves in pvp, getting to the top and maybe getting emp for themselevs or their buddy, they could careless about winning the camp.

ChaosWotan

Call it GvG or RvR, I don't care. Most casual gamers will get what GvG stands for, but not RvR.

@Styxiii

Yeah, that's one reason I created this thread, because strategic gamers actually care about the campaign, like we did in 2015, but now it seems like console players have contributed to even more of this me first-attitude seen in Cyrodiil.

And I get it, CoD games have always been more popular than strategic games, especially when Cyrodiil has not evolved in two years, so I look forward to Morrowind when solo players can get a proper arena that will hopefully satisfy their interests. While the best gankers continue to stay in Cyr, because assassins and solo terrorists are also part of warfare.

FortheloveofKrist

No wonder my BAR and hand grenades are not in my inventory.

Thanks for clearing that up!

kessik221

Maybe strategy and taking keeps is why you are there, but its not why i'm there. Im there to pick off your stragglers cause chaos and make you cry when no one stays together. Cyrodill is war period. Just because you enjou the strategy part doesn't mean its the only part. And no, 4v4v4 wont make casuals leave cyro. It will take the high end players leading your groups because they want competitive pvp.

Riejael

ChaosWotan wrote: »

Everyone who takes a quick look at Cyrodiil will notice that this is a siege game where the objective is to take keeps and resources. It's a strategy game, a bit similar to Company of Heroes. It's not primarily like CoD or BF1, but many treat it as it was, prb because ESO gives them the freedom to do so, instead of making strategic GvG training mandatory when entering Cyrodiil the first time.

For example, teaching players that if they stay within the healing area of the crown/train, they will survive longer. And that stacking at crown is more important than attacking solo, if you want to win the campaign. A mandatory tutorial should also give information about installing and using TS and the Exterminatus addon.

Many solo players whine about strategy being boring, and that xv1 is lame, but then either play another game than ESO, or accept that a siege game like this was never designed to primarily be a battlefield where solo players can take keeps and resources alone. Instead, Cyrodiil is mainly a team game, like football, not skateboarding.

If you want realism or want to stay true to the game lore, you should realise that a solo player complaining about being killed by a large group in Cyrodiil is like a ninja or solo terrorist whining about how unfair, boring and unbalanced it is to get killed by a group of Samurais or a SWAT team. Yeah, it's "unbalanced', but that's real warfare, and the reason why few people in real life run around solo on a battlefield.

In real life, in a bloody conflict, everyone knows that "together we stand, divided we fall", but many players in Cyrodiil don't understand this very simple principle, or they simply refuse to follow it because it's "boring". Well, the reason it feels boring is prb because 1) you have not been in a good GvG guild using TS, 2) you think strategy games in general are boring, or 3) ESO has not provided new challenges in Cyrodiil the last two years. The last reason is a good argument, but the first two should make you think twice about the intended gameplay design of Cyrodiil.

Cyrodiil is a bit like Tour the France. You look like a fool if you start whining when others tell you that it's against the rules to use an off-road bike down the mountains. It's a team effort, and you have to stay on track. ESO, however, gives you the freedom to also be a solo player, but then you better be damn good at it and accept the environment you are playing in.

What Cyrodiil has shown us so far is that mixing strategic gamers and (casual) solo players is not working very well. When Morrowind introduces battlegrounds one can always hope that CoD players go there while strategic gamers stay in Cyrodiil.

The game you are looking to compare Cyrodil to is Planetside 2. It has 3 factions on a persistent world where when you capture one base it allows for the next in line to open. Battles can last for days and maybe weeks. They are also much larger in scope where 100vs100 fights are the norm and 300vs300(sometimes a three-way for another vs300 in there) are not uncommon.

Just like in Cyrodil, a solo player in PS2 gets WRECKED. They have very LITTLE influence on the battle by themselves. They can get a kill here and there. But the person they kill just respawns and rejoins the fight in less than a minute or two. So its less about personal skill and more about coordination and team work.

I highly doubt Battlegrounds will be a fix anyone thinks it might be. In WoW PVP queue times were higher in Legion than Draenor despite a large population increase. In many other games BGs aren't doing so well either, hell in FFXIV no one bothered.

Players want PVP. But they don't want the match style instanced stuff anymore. Cyrodil is more about what they want. But they ironically don't wish to play it properly which is weird.

But then again, even self proclaimed 'hardcore' PVPers are carebears compared to PVPers 15 years ago. So that muddies the waters a bit. The majority of 'PVP' people want to engage in is stealing crafting mats and chests while you're fighting the mob guarding it, but without the repercussions of getting ganked for it.

ChaosWotan

@FortheloveofKrist

U are welcome, always nice to help all those gamers out there who get confused when seeing that their BF1 or CoD has suddenly turned medieval.

@kessik221

For the hundreth time, I'm not against solo players, but not as the main component of gameplay in Cyrodiil. And the best EP leaders have already left, at least many of them, because they got tired of gamers not following orders.

DenMoria

They should just remove all PvE from ESO and let the PvPers have their way.

Rikumaru

Large group battles would be fun if there was tactics and balance involved. I haven't enjoyed the zerging playstyle compared to solo play since the release of ESO where large battles were actually fun and felt like a medieval battle. Zerging right now is so braindead and boring without any tactics involved so how can you blame people for playing solo? Not to mention fps and latency issues in large fights.

kuro-dono

Riejael wrote: »

ChaosWotan wrote: »

Everyone who takes a quick look at Cyrodiil will notice that this is a siege game where the objective is to take keeps and resources. It's a strategy game, a bit similar to Company of Heroes. It's not primarily like CoD or BF1, but many treat it as it was, prb because ESO gives them the freedom to do so, instead of making strategic GvG training mandatory when entering Cyrodiil the first time.

For example, teaching players that if they stay within the healing area of the crown/train, they will survive longer. And that stacking at crown is more important than attacking solo, if you want to win the campaign. A mandatory tutorial should also give information about installing and using TS and the Exterminatus addon.

Many solo players whine about strategy being boring, and that xv1 is lame, but then either play another game than ESO, or accept that a siege game like this was never designed to primarily be a battlefield where solo players can take keeps and resources alone. Instead, Cyrodiil is mainly a team game, like football, not skateboarding.

If you want realism or want to stay true to the game lore, you should realise that a solo player complaining about being killed by a large group in Cyrodiil is like a ninja or solo terrorist whining about how unfair, boring and unbalanced it is to get killed by a group of Samurais or a SWAT team. Yeah, it's "unbalanced', but that's real warfare, and the reason why few people in real life run around solo on a battlefield.

In real life, in a bloody conflict, everyone knows that "together we stand, divided we fall", but many players in Cyrodiil don't understand this very simple principle, or they simply refuse to follow it because it's "boring". Well, the reason it feels boring is prb because 1) you have not been in a good GvG guild using TS, 2) you think strategy games in general are boring, or 3) ESO has not provided new challenges in Cyrodiil the last two years. The last reason is a good argument, but the first two should make you think twice about the intended gameplay design of Cyrodiil.

Cyrodiil is a bit like Tour the France. You look like a fool if you start whining when others tell you that it's against the rules to use an off-road bike down the mountains. It's a team effort, and you have to stay on track. ESO, however, gives you the freedom to also be a solo player, but then you better be damn good at it and accept the environment you are playing in.

What Cyrodiil has shown us so far is that mixing strategic gamers and (casual) solo players is not working very well. When Morrowind introduces battlegrounds one can always hope that CoD players go there while strategic gamers stay in Cyrodiil.

The game you are looking to compare Cyrodil to is Planetside 2. It has 3 factions on a persistent world where when you capture one base it allows for the next in line to open. Battles can last for days and maybe weeks. They are also much larger in scope where 100vs100 fights are the norm and 300vs300(sometimes a three-way for another vs300 in there) are not uncommon.

Just like in Cyrodil, a solo player in PS2 gets WRECKED. They have very LITTLE influence on the battle by themselves. They can get a kill here and there. But the person they kill just respawns and rejoins the fight in less than a minute or two. So its less about personal skill and more about coordination and team work.

I highly doubt Battlegrounds will be a fix anyone thinks it might be. In WoW PVP queue times were higher in Legion than Draenor despite a large population increase. In many other games BGs aren't doing so well either, hell in FFXIV no one bothered.

Players want PVP. But they don't want the match style instanced stuff anymore. Cyrodil is more about what they want. But they ironically don't wish to play it properly which is weird.

But then again, even self proclaimed 'hardcore' PVPers are carebears compared to PVPers 15 years ago. So that muddies the waters a bit. The majority of 'PVP' people want to engage in is stealing crafting mats and chests while you're fighting the mob guarding it, but without the repercussions of getting ganked for it.

the part where you say ppl dont wanna play it properly> correct translation is> ppl want to have win rate way above 50% before they fight anyone. thats why eso pvp is so sad. lots of folks focus on instant kill burst builds, or aoe choo choo organized raids, or just follow the largest herd there is. then there is the attension seekers who run these supertank builds.

basicly its rock vs paper vs scrissors, but big thing is> vast majority of player base doesnt play either of those 3. and thats where the tanks, burst guys and aoe choo choo:ers come in. they want those tasty n00blets who have no clue whats going on.

disintegr8

Large group battles might be fun if there was no lag and DCs. I hate zergs and large battles because I always get lag and die or get DC'd and die, so usually go solo or two up, moving from small fight to small fight.

Do I care if this is what is best for the alliance?
Not really, because if I did i would not be able to stay on long enough to enjoy PVP.

Do I care if I am an easy target and people are getting easy AP off me?
Not really, it has no effect on me how much AP other people have - I will never be vying for emperorship.

Do I care if I upset hard core PVPers in my alliance?
Not really, because until ZOS fix the lag and disconnects I either play my way or stay out of Cyrodiil and I do not want to do that.