Debuff Events broadcasted to everyone.

Cinbri

I like this change and despite taht my game already have low perfomance it didn't reduce it any futher. LUIe addon.

Zakor

VagabondLife wrote: »

Zakor wrote: »

TL,DR:
Calm down and let the addon authors and ZOS discuss about needed changes without your whining.

Our so-called "whining" is a direct response to questions asked by ZOS staff.

Since you seem to have missed it:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Just had a chat with @ZOS_ChipHilseberg. This is working as intended. We want you to be able to see any effect cast around you unless you are in Cyrodiil and it's cast by an enemy-alliance player. If you don't want this option or have concerns about it, could you share with us the reasons why?

TL,DR:
This IS the discussion about needed changes. But thanks for butting in and being all condescending anyway, it was super useful.

What you do is no discussion but a rant. "I don't like it, it doesn't work like I want it to, change it back!". You don't understand:

1. That this is caused by the way addons work atm. It's not ZOS fault actually.
2. ZOS opened up a giant opportunity for buff trackers with this change.
3. The addon authors are already thinking of ways to adapt to this.
4. Some authors already changed their addons so that they (almost) work like before.

What you should do:

1. If you're an author: post what additional information you need per API to improve your code.
2. If you aren't an author: keep calm and let them adapt.

Easy as that. The change should stay. Just give it a week or two.

ArtOfShred

I can tell you the performance hit for most buff tracker addons should be relatively minute. I've had some pretty heavy code for event_combat_event and event_effect_changed in the updated version of LUI I'm working without any noticable impact.

Being able to see other players buffs and debuffs is pretty cool actually.

It would however help to have access or limited access to the sourceId/sourceName and targetId/targetName in event_effect_changed. We could filter out things not sourced or targeting the player this way without having to fudge our way around it by using event_combat_event to get that info.

The other major issue I can see is if multiple debuffs of the same type aren't showing up, there either needs to be a way for all instances of it applied to display OR for us to only see our variant in this case.

^ Now my solution to the issues for LUI might actually already circumvent this. Technically the other effect changed events should never broadcast and update the buff containers, so I should be able to see ONLY my debuffs even if someone fires off like 10 ransacks during the duration of mine. I will test when I get home from work tonight. If its working I'll try and get that update out really soon for people that are having problems after the update. I'm pretty confident that it will work.

Stay tuned if you're having issues, I will do my best to get a short term solution out to help with this.

Thanks for responding to us and thanks for the API changes. I actually really appreciate this change because some of the information we can see is excellent. Its really nice being able to see a lot of mob passives and channel durations now, and gratifying since I've made about 500 custom icons for npc abilities too.

jwarren68

I think it should be a settings option. It is interfering with my game for several of the reasons already mentioned, while others apparently like it.

Zakor

jwarren68 wrote: »

I think it should be a settings option. It is interfering with my game for several of the reasons already mentioned, while others apparently like it.

Why don't you all understand that it's not on ZOS' side? It's the addons you are running. So there is no chance for an option on official side. All you can hope for is that the addons will be updated and I predict they WILL be updated as already mentioned by @ArtOfShred for example. Just give them time.

ZOS just threw us a giant bone. Please don't ruin this like group dps was ruined...

calia1120

One thing that would be hugely helpful, even from a visual perspective (and also for those not running addons) would be to change the color of your effects versus another player's. This would in theory also give a means within the API for addon developers to leverage for filtering.

dpencil

We'll see what the addon authors can do and what their feedback is. I always thought it was weird I wouldn't see Ele Drain tracked on a mob if a party member cast it. That part I like a lot.

Wall of Elements' timer refreshing because someone else cast it, no. Terrible. It's not a debuff anyway, it's a ground-based attack. Or Frag procs, come on.

Let's hope it's easy for the addon authors to keep the first and ditch the second.

ArtOfShred

Zakor wrote: »

Why don't you all understand that it's not on ZOS' side? It's the addons you are running. So there is no chance for an option on official side.

Actually at the moment it may not be something we can work around entirely, or at least not efficiently. It's very likely that we will require some API changes - however this is a good change and an opportunity for growth for what we can do with addons. I'd rather see us taking steps to make this functionality work than rolling it back.

Also I second Calia's thoughts about greying out non-player sourced debuffs.

Zakor

ArtOfShred wrote: »

Zakor wrote: »

Why don't you all understand that it's not on ZOS' side? It's the addons you are running. So there is no chance for an option on official side.

Actually at the moment it may not be something we can work around entirely, or at least not efficiently. It's very likely that we will require some API changes - however this is a good change and an opportunity for growth for what we can do with addons. I'd rather see us taking steps to make this functionality work than rolling it back.

Also I second Calia's thoughts about greying out non-player sourced debuffs.

I understand that but that's no reason to start a rant. Instead people should act like you and provide feedback like "What is needed to improve the new system". I actually hope this is a test and they are considering to give us back group dps in some way if this works. But they obviously won't do so if we throw *** at them for giving us this opportunity.

I would actually like to see 3 different options for addons:

1. Show all debuffs, like now
2. Show all debuffs but highlight my own/ grey out other players
3. Show only my debuffs as before the patch.

All of this option should include NPC buffs IMO. So whatever it needs to script addons to work like this, please provide it ZOS. IIRC it's only one more ID which is needed.

calia1120

One of the biggest challenges for addon devs working on this right now is trying to sort out the data: what's yours vs what's cast by another player. This patch brought about changes, as they all do. Addon devs are not just sitting back and laughing at broken code - many of us have been on PTS for the last few weeks trying to get ahead of this release to avoid issues; sometimes there's different code that goes live and scrambling to catch up has to be done.

Also, please bear in mind that addon developers are not paid for what they do, they do it because they like it, and have chosen to put that work out there. Yelling at them isn't generally a nice way to go about getting the changes you want in the ones you use frequently.

Phinix1

Pointless post is pointless.

Solinur

Anyway @ZOS_ChipHilseberg just said on the ESOUI forums (here) that he will add another variable to EVENT_EFFECT_CHANGED which allows us to separate the foreign buffs/debuffs from your own ones. This makes it very easy to fix addons so they behave as they did before while allowing us to also make use of the new functionality. I will also provide a Patch for FTC if it doesn't get updated by the authors.

Zakor

Solinur wrote: »

Anyway @ZOS_ChipHilseberg just said on the ESOUI forums (here) that he will add another variable to EVENT_EFFECT_CHANGED which allows us to separate the foreign buffs/debuffs from your own ones. This makes it very easy to fix addons so they behave as they did before while allowing us to also make use of the new functionality. I will also provide a Patch for FTC if it doesn't get updated by the authors.

That's awesome! Better Buff (or Debuff?) tracker incoming!

Enodoc

VagabondLife wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Why do you guys not want to know what another player is doing? Surely a debuff that another player has cast will have an impact on your combat results too, as it'll affect the mobs you're fighting.

There is not enough room on my computer screen - or in my brain - to keep track of every single heal, shield, buff, debuff, snare, ground target, and proc cast by other players anywhere nearby. And that's what the buff trackers show now. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

I use Srendarr to keep track of my 2 ground target AoEs, my shield, and my Crystal Frags procs and Power Surge buff (which i have a hard time telling apart because the visuals are almost identical). That's only 5 alerts, and it's about as much as my eyes and brain can handle in the middle of combat.

Yesterday at a dolmen I had so many alerts up at once that they literally filled my entire screen with a wall of text and icons, all just constantly overwriting each other before I even had a chance to read them. I assume at least some of the Blockades and Lightnings were mine, but who even knows? It was completely game breaking for me.

If I wanted to gimp myself and not be able to track my buffs I'd just play on console instead.

Hoping this change gets reverted ASAP...

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

This change is bad, and I mean really really bad.

Buff timers, FTC, Srendarr, all addons went useless. You are literally unable to keep track of the WoE or simillar spells cuz you don't know if it's yours or someone's else.
Boss debuffs are all over, even in freaking dungeon. How am I supposed to keep track of Siphon Spirit with 2 magdks in group and a NB tank? Debuffs, debuffs everywhere!!!

I am sorry to say, but revert this change please.

Isn't it the add-ons that need to be changed then, not the API? The add-ons just need a setting for "only show my buffs".

Edit: Wait, just saw the reply above that this isn't possible yet. When that is possible, will it solve the problem?

calia1120

Enodoc wrote: »

Isn't it the add-ons that need to be changed then, not the API? The add-ons just need a setting for "only show my buffs".

Edit: Wait, just saw the reply above that this isn't possible yet. When that is possible, will it solve the problem?

They need to add something to the API that the addons can check - in this case, Chip mentions adding a sourcetype called sourceIsPlayer. Basically, when it comes back true, that means that it's something originated by you. If false, the addons can be designed to ignore it via settings.

Until that sourcetype exists, if you're using a buff tracking addon, you'll continue to see extra stuff.

Talcyndl

Just to be clear for ZOS and everyone else. This is also impacting Cyrodiil. Buff tracking is showing all friendly player buffs in area. Not useful.

Solinur

Talcyndl wrote: »

Just to be clear for ZOS and everyone else. This is also impacting Cyrodiil. Buff tracking is showing all friendly player buffs in area. Not useful.

Ok, didn't check for that but you are right, you should see it for friendly units. Now we just wait for the change and then everything will be fine again.

ArtOfShred

Still looking for short term solutions to this, not sure if it will be possible without a lot of other issues. I've gotten to the point where I have a functional way to ignore other player debuffs, but the problem is alot of your own debuffs won't update correctly when refreshed. Got a few more things I can try and hopefully get it working.

DschiPeunt

So, a year ago, when there was an Addon that showed your group members damage, you had to change the API immediately, because you didn't want people to see this info without the other's consent.
Now, it's completely fine to see all skills and buffs and debuffs from other players?

This has had a bad impact on the game's performance for people using buff tracker addons (so, a lot of people) and it has made tracking your own ground AoE's and target debuffs almost impossible.

If you want all players to see, if a dungeon boss has the Alkosh debuff or Minor Vulnerability or similar things on them, I get that. But I do not need to see a Sorcerers Crystal Fragment procc, when I am playing my DK.

Again, ZOS has had a good idea, but was too lazy to implement it correctly...

Olupajmibanan

Quick update: Buff Timers addon is causing a lot of performance issues now, especially in Cyrodiil.
Turning it off immediately resolved performance and game was playable once more. I have still Srendarr and FTC on without any problems so this seems Buff Timers specific issue.

DschiPeunt

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Quick update: Buff Timers addon is causing a lot of performance issues now, especially in Cyrodiil.
Turning it off immediately resolved performance and game was playable once more. I have still Srendarr and FTC on without any problems so this seems Buff Timers specific issue.

Our tank had FPS problems, when he had Srendarr active during our raids yesterday. Maybe not every addon causes problems for everyone.

Solinur

DschiPeunt wrote: »

So, a year ago, when there was an Addon that showed your group members damage, you had to change the API immediately, because you didn't want people to see this info without the other's consent.
Now, it's completely fine to see all skills and buffs and debuffs from other players?

This has had a bad impact on the game's performance for people using buff tracker addons (so, a lot of people) and it has made tracking your own ground AoE's and target debuffs almost impossible.

If you want all players to see, if a dungeon boss has the Alkosh debuff or Minor Vulnerability or similar things on them, I get that. But I do not need to see a Sorcerers Crystal Fragment procc, when I am playing my DK.

Again, ZOS has had a good idea, but was too lazy to implement it correctly...

There is an important difference: You still don't see the damage. Seeing buffs and effects is fine, I'd say. Also the implementation is not bad it follows the approach of ZOS to give us as much freedom as possible. It would be a really stupid and tiring approach to go trough all abilities and decide if there is an interest in knowing it or not. This is not how API's or programming work. It has nothing to do with laziness.
The reason why addon authors were a bit surprised by that is that the change came to the PTS in 2.7.4, in the last week when most already had checked that there are no issues.

DschiPeunt

Solinur wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

So, a year ago, when there was an Addon that showed your group members damage, you had to change the API immediately, because you didn't want people to see this info without the other's consent.
Now, it's completely fine to see all skills and buffs and debuffs from other players?

This has had a bad impact on the game's performance for people using buff tracker addons (so, a lot of people) and it has made tracking your own ground AoE's and target debuffs almost impossible.

If you want all players to see, if a dungeon boss has the Alkosh debuff or Minor Vulnerability or similar things on them, I get that. But I do not need to see a Sorcerers Crystal Fragment procc, when I am playing my DK.

Again, ZOS has had a good idea, but was too lazy to implement it correctly...

There is an important difference: You still don't see the damage. Seeing buffs and effects is fine, I'd say. Also the implementation is not bad it follows the approach of ZOS to give us as much freedom as possible. It would be a really stupid and tiring approach to go trough all abilities and decide if there is an interest in knowing it or not. This is not how API's or programming work. It has nothing to do with laziness.
The reason why addon authors were a bit surprised by that is that the change came to the PTS in 2.7.4, in the last week when most already had checked that there are no issues.

Well, I don't really mind, that one can see other people's abilities. But seeing what skills a player uses and especially how well someone can keep up his DoTs is quite a lot of information about someone's skill. Just wanted to point out, that these two changes don't follow the same logic imho.

From my understanding, there is not really a good way to track your buffs/debuffs now. The necessary changes to the API aren't live yet. So, do we stop raiding now, until ZOS changes the API again? And will this future change solve the FPS problems, that the addons caused?

Solinur

DschiPeunt wrote: »

Solinur wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

So, a year ago, when there was an Addon that showed your group members damage, you had to change the API immediately, because you didn't want people to see this info without the other's consent.
Now, it's completely fine to see all skills and buffs and debuffs from other players?

This has had a bad impact on the game's performance for people using buff tracker addons (so, a lot of people) and it has made tracking your own ground AoE's and target debuffs almost impossible.

If you want all players to see, if a dungeon boss has the Alkosh debuff or Minor Vulnerability or similar things on them, I get that. But I do not need to see a Sorcerers Crystal Fragment procc, when I am playing my DK.

Again, ZOS has had a good idea, but was too lazy to implement it correctly...

There is an important difference: You still don't see the damage. Seeing buffs and effects is fine, I'd say. Also the implementation is not bad it follows the approach of ZOS to give us as much freedom as possible. It would be a really stupid and tiring approach to go trough all abilities and decide if there is an interest in knowing it or not. This is not how API's or programming work. It has nothing to do with laziness.
The reason why addon authors were a bit surprised by that is that the change came to the PTS in 2.7.4, in the last week when most already had checked that there are no issues.

Well, I don't really mind, that one can see other people's abilities. But seeing what skills a player uses and especially how well someone can keep up his DoTs is quite a lot of information about someone's skill. Just wanted to point out, that these two changes don't follow the same logic imho.

From my understanding, there is not really a good way to track your buffs/debuffs now. The necessary changes to the API aren't live yet. So, do we stop raiding now, until ZOS changes the API again? And will this future change solve the FPS problems, that the addons caused?

I have a solution that seems to work quite well in the same thread on ESOUI that I pointed out in the OP. I'm just not sure if I want to release it in Cmobat Metrics as I have to revert it back when the change comes. But if the authors of Srendarr and other addons would implement it, not sure.

Edit: There also is the option to use a Filter so you only get the events that affect the player. You loose the tracking of debuffs on mobs (even the one you caused), but the rest will work just as before.

And you can raid just fine without buff trackers. Sure you probably won't do it as well as with it, but unless you try a new highscore or a vMoL HM nodeath you should be alright.

ArtOfShred

You shall not thwart me API. SUCCESS! I'm pretty sure I've got this working now. The only issue is in buffs that can't stack (the major/minor buffs). I might just make my filtering ignore those abilities so we can see them regardless. ZOS added some nice new icons for the major & minor debuffs in with this patch so I'm considering changing all the icons for those effects to those new icons. Then we can get used to seeing those debuff icons on a mob and understanding what they mean.

Even with the changes Chip wants to make to make this easier for addon developers to implement, I don't really think there's a way to circumvent any abilities that can't stack - so might as well normalize the display of those.

I'll try to get LUI updated within the next few days that I have off work, gotta clean a few more things up before I'm comfortable pushing out an earlier release than I intended.

EDIT: Success, got major/minor debuffs now displaying for everyone again!

Greydir

Just want to say Kudos to you for your work

Solinur

Just in case anybody is wondering. The change didn't make it to this weeks patch but should be included in the next iteration.

DschiPeunt

Solinur wrote: »

Just in case anybody is wondering. The change didn't make it to this weeks patch but should be included in the next iteration.

Thanks for the info. Another week of not being able to raid properly.

Solinur

DschiPeunt wrote: »

Solinur wrote: »

Just in case anybody is wondering. The change didn't make it to this weeks patch but should be included in the next iteration.

Thanks for the info. Another week of not being able to raid properly.

Don't know what you mean. I'm raiding just fine

DschiPeunt

Solinur wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

Solinur wrote: »

Just in case anybody is wondering. The change didn't make it to this weeks patch but should be included in the next iteration.

Thanks for the info. Another week of not being able to raid properly.

Don't know what you mean. I'm raiding just fine

It's quite impossible to achieve new top DPS numbers without being able to track my unstable wall perfectly.