Allow shields to be critically damaged.

Dahood2

The fact that you cant crit a shielded player has been consistently ruining pvp for me. Why grant a class a shield that covers almost more than their full health bar that cant be crit? I see no balance it. If the devs have any insights or explanation please share, although they wont. Im so confused as to why I have to do 2.5x more damage to a shielded player. Is there a real reason you cant crit a shield? There should definitely be some drawbacks to spamming a shield over and over.

FriedEggSandwich

The class shield doesn't cover almost more than their full health bar, that would be 2 or 3 shields stacked on top of each other. The class shield is only about 10-15k by itself in pvp. I think that the ability to stack shields is more of a problem than them being uncrittable. Put cp into "shattering blows" if you want to do more damage to shields. The main reason you can't crit a shield is because they don't "crit" themselves; they are always the same size every time you cast them. They would need a buff in size if they were to be crit.

Waffennacht

Because it also has no resistance, you're doing your full tooltip damage to a ward.

If you build a crit heavy damage build then you're going have bad time against wards but you'll do well against stam builds. This is the choice you have made.

STEVIL

Dahood2 wrote: »

The fact that you cant crit a shielded player has been consistently ruining pvp for me. Why grant a class a shield that covers almost more than their full health bar that cant be crit? I see no balance it. If the devs have any insights or explanation please share, although they wont. Im so confused as to why I have to do 2.5x more damage to a shielded player. Is there a real reason you cant crit a shield? There should definitely be some drawbacks to spamming a shield over and over.

Ok so a little math for you.

lets assume you get to crit shields and so get about a 56% boost to your damage if you have a net 75% chance of crit and 755 net crit damage boost which is a pretty high threshold to make without lotsa help but likely manageable - also assume we have no none not a bit of crit protection. So the 75% 75% is your net after defenses advantage in crit.

We also want to however, in fairness, get our mitigation applied before shield... so assuming we got a mitigation advantage thats half your crit advantage - 37% mitigation net applied... that brings you back down to maybe 985 of normal base starting damage with no crits and no mitigation.

Ok these numbers are out of my posterior airlock but...

the key is that right now shields dont get critted but also dont benefit from mitigation.

it is what it is and you know what, if either or both of those very important factors was to change, the shield scores would be re-balanced/re-figured to take it into account so net result - little to no diff.

Metafae

I like the idea of allowing shields to take crit damage, so long as shields can crit when cast.

This would have little effect on the pvp side, people would still complain, but it'll make PvE more interesting, as you'll have larger shields on average.

WalksonGraves

Waffennacht wrote: »

Because it also has no resistance, you're doing your full tooltip damage to a ward.

If you build a crit heavy damage build then you're going have bad time against wards but you'll do well against stam builds. This is the choice you have made.

This is why I laugh at tanks that use shields, they melt like butter even without crits.

Anti_Virus

Waffennacht wrote: »

Because it also has no resistance, you're doing your full tooltip damage to a ward.

If you build a crit heavy damage build then you're going have bad time against wards but you'll do well against stam builds. This is the choice you have made.

Hardy/Elemental defender and and dmg mitigation abilities such such as major protection mitigates dmg while the shield is up.

FriedEggSandwich

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Because it also has no resistance, you're doing your full tooltip damage to a ward.

If you build a crit heavy damage build then you're going have bad time against wards but you'll do well against stam builds. This is the choice you have made.

Hardy/Elemental defender and and dmg mtigation ability such such as major protection mitigates dmg while the shield is up.

This is balanced because mighty, elemental expert, thaumaturge and staff/melee weapon expert all inrease damage dealt to damage shields.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Because it also has no resistance, you're doing your full tooltip damage to a ward.

If you build a crit heavy damage build then you're going have bad time against wards but you'll do well against stam builds. This is the choice you have made.

This is why I laugh at tanks that use shields, they melt like butter even without crits.

What do you mean tanks that use sheilds? And why do you laugh at them?

Mojomonkeyman

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

The class shield doesn't cover almost more than their full health bar, that would be 2 or 3 shields stacked on top of each other. The class shield is only about 10-15k by itself in pvp. I think that the ability to stack shields is more of a problem than them being uncrittable. Put cp into "shattering blows" if you want to do more damage to shields. The main reason you can't crit a shield is because they don't "crit" themselves; they are always the same size every time you cast them. They would need a buff in size if they were to be crit.

I tried shattering blows, its really not great, certainly not a game changer vs shields. I run a 5.7k wpn damage build atm (I refuse to use direct dmg proc sets), but you know what? It`s really freaking hard to drop a fully defensive shield stacker. I usually like your opinion on balance, but I think you underestimate how difficult it is to drop shields without proc sets.

Take proc sets away, and decent mag sorcs will be unkillable again. Shields desperately need to be toned down, if we do not want to balance for broken stuff (Proc sets).

It`s a dilemma ZOS has caused, I would wonder if they even have identified it yet (the secondary balancing issues caused by proc sets).

SolarCat02

Shields were already nerfed to only last six seconds, requiring more micromanagement to keep them active. I mean, it's doable to keep them up, but it does drain resources, and take time from casting more offensive skills (or healing skills, in my case).

I can only dodge roll so much as a magicka user.

cpuScientist

SolarCat02 wrote: »

Shields were already nerfed to only last six seconds, requiring more micromanagement to keep them active. I mean, it's doable to keep them up, but it does drain resources, and take time from casting more offensive skills (or healing skills, in my case).

I can only dodge roll so much as a magicka user.

Yes but your shields should still be crittable and they should have a 50% chance on cast not to proc and if spammed within 6 seconds they should cost double and they should cost health to cast since it covers your health bar. And still they would be too overpowered. If OP can't break through them in exactly 1 hit with all his weapon damage then something is wrong. Every other defense in this game is broken in exactly 1 hit. If someone builds into stamina and uses a Dodge roll they cannot stack dodge rolls so dodge rolls only negate 1 hit, that is unbalanced and if they use a REAL sheild 1 hit takes them out of block. And as of right now no other magicka class can stack good shields like a sorc, I mean sure they all heal through damage except sorcs who have to slot another skill for a weak weak heal in PvP that only come IF they CRIT, but since Sheilds and the like cost so much they have to build in some Regen lowering their CRIT. And other magicka classes have good burst heals like BoL and the like our wings for reflects or invisibility, but sorcs can streak and that is a while other OVERPOWERED SKILL. They should make shields like streak cost a ton more every use. And reduce the range on streak too. Also while other magicka classes may have bonuses to healing or to blocking, and have class spapables that allow them to use a sword and board, sorcs only have force pulse which is completely overpowered aswell and needs to be that only one of those elements fire at a time not all three. I mean three hits from one ability is waaaay to OVERPOWERED. All in all sorcs cannot run sword and board for extra defense they don't heal reliably through DPS they don't their defense mechanics have cast times and or high costs such as shields streaks and mines, they really need to get major nerfs, because OP needs to be able to 1 hit their shields and 1 be able to take less damage from force pulse and walk through mines with them only tickling.

Biro123

Shields in there current form will always be difficult to balance. 1v1 - yes, they seem strong - but even so, against a good, high-dmg player, those shields need recasting every 2 out of 3 cooldowns - which destroys your offence (since sorc burst needs 3-4 casts to setup). At best you get a stalemate until they start burning your stam with CC - then you end up unable to break-free to re-shield and get 2-shotted (I got hit with 2 consecutive wrecking-blows at 11.5k each the other day). Remember, to get stronger shields, and the sustainability for them, magsorcs sacrifice armour resists and crit resists.

Now many vs many... If 5 enemies decide to focus you at the same time - and you're a roll-dodger. You avoid ALL damage. If 5 attack you and you're a heavy armour blocker, you take maybe 20%? of that damage - and probably heal it all back in the next couple of GCD's. IF 5 enemies focus you at the same time with dmg-shields.. 2 of em drop the shield, the other 3 drop you.

Its a scaling issue. In terms of survivability, damage shields scale VERY badly as the number of attackers rises. So how does ZOS keep them useful in large-scale without them being too strong in small-scale? Or how do they keep them balanced in small-scale without being useless in large-scale. ?

At the minute, you just need to remember that for every shield-stacker who tanks you 1v1 cos you don't know how to CC - there is one who evaporates in large-scale just because too many people looked his way at the same time.


Do I think they should be crittable? no. Because it would have to be balanced by them being allowed to crit themselves. That then makes it an unreliable defence.. ie they crit when opponent doesn't - or they don't but opponent does.... its just more RNG which people seem to hate already with the proc-sets.

Derra

Yes shields are broken.

No they should not be changed to be critically hit (that would result in more shieldstacking).

No they should not be changed to be critically hit (would require major reworks on shields).

Shieldstacking should be looked at (harness makes hardened + harness both free to cast due to it´s scaling magica return if built right).

Shieldstacking should also be looked at to implement defensive light armor improvements - which is currently not possible due to how strong shieldstacking is.

Xvorg

Just no.

BTW, DoTs are a good way to bring down shields, or deplete the shield stacker resources

Alagras

It's nice to have different defense systems between stam and mag builds, working differently. Seems more rock-paper-scissorish to me, and if you're running a high crit build, then stam players are your primary targets, not bathrobes.

There are other levers you can pull to balance it ,or try to, without hurting diversity.

DHale

I burst through sorc shield in a few hits stun them 6 seconds after they apply the shield they die quick. It's why I stopped playing the sorc.

Biro123

Derra wrote: »

Yes shields are broken.

No they should not be changed to be critically hit (that would result in more shieldstacking).

No they should not be changed to be critically hit (would require major reworks on shields).

Shieldstacking should be looked at (harness makes hardened + harness both free to cast due to it´s scaling magica return if built right).

Shieldstacking should also be looked at to implement defensive light armor improvements - which is currently not possible due to how strong shieldstacking is.

The thing is, too (and I'm no expert in other classes apart from what I see - so ready to be corrected) is that ALL other classes have access to 2/3 of the sorc shields and plenty of other defensive tools too.. Magblade can shield and cloak. I can't count the amount of my empowered frags that magblades have avoided due to cloak - which would have took down 3/4 of a hardened ward - not to mention hits from other players at the same time that miss due to cloak.. The ones that get through (curse etc) - theres still the other shield. Magplars.. shield and massive instant heals, MagDK - dunno really, but they're still damn hard to kill (wings being part of it).. I guess what I'm getting at is if stacking becomes impossible, then magsorcs will need something else in the defense dep't to replace it.

Biro123

DHale wrote: »

I burst through sorc shield in a few hits stun them 6 seconds after they apply the shield they die quick. It's why I stopped playing the sorc.

I ran with 5 reactive for a while just to combat that. Worked a treat, but my damage and sustain tanked... Now if I could get that to work again with sustain.. hmm.. I have an idea...

Hurika

Give shields a flat mitigation value that is increased 30% for 5 light, 15% for 5 medium, 5% for 5 heavy (or whatever makes sense). Then adjust them so that a shield absorbs 50% (or whatever makes sense) of all damage as long as it's up and the other % goes against their health. Allow them to be crit. Increase duration to 20s (or whatever makes sense).

Shields should increase survivability but shouldn't prevent all attacks from getting to the players health.

Another thought is to have 2 weapon traits that

• x% of your damage bypasses magic shields and cannot be dodged
• x% of your damage bypasses physical shields and cannot be dodged

FriedEggSandwich

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

The class shield doesn't cover almost more than their full health bar, that would be 2 or 3 shields stacked on top of each other. The class shield is only about 10-15k by itself in pvp. I think that the ability to stack shields is more of a problem than them being uncrittable. Put cp into "shattering blows" if you want to do more damage to shields. The main reason you can't crit a shield is because they don't "crit" themselves; they are always the same size every time you cast them. They would need a buff in size if they were to be crit.

I tried shattering blows, its really not great, certainly not a game changer vs shields. I run a 5.7k wpn damage build atm (I refuse to use direct dmg proc sets), but you know what? It`s really freaking hard to drop a fully defensive shield stacker. I usually like your opinion on balance, but I think you underestimate how difficult it is to drop shields without proc sets.

Take proc sets away, and decent mag sorcs will be unkillable again. Shields desperately need to be toned down, if we do not want to balance for broken stuff (Proc sets).

It`s a dilemma ZOS has caused, I would wonder if they even have identified it yet (the secondary balancing issues caused by proc sets).

I will admit that my opinion on this is mostly selfish; I only use hardened and boundless in pvp, with healing ward as an emergency burst heal. Making shields crittable would badly nerf my playstyle and force me into stacking harness with hardened again. I agree with you that combined shields on a defensive sorc are too strong and I won't defend shield stacking. I would like to see that mechanic addressed before any other shield nerfs, but I'm currently opposed to crittable shields.

psychotic13

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

The class shield doesn't cover almost more than their full health bar, that would be 2 or 3 shields stacked on top of each other. The class shield is only about 10-15k by itself in pvp. I think that the ability to stack shields is more of a problem than them being uncrittable. Put cp into "shattering blows" if you want to do more damage to shields. The main reason you can't crit a shield is because they don't "crit" themselves; they are always the same size every time you cast them. They would need a buff in size if they were to be crit.

I tried shattering blows, its really not great, certainly not a game changer vs shields. I run a 5.7k wpn damage build atm (I refuse to use direct dmg proc sets), but you know what? It`s really freaking hard to drop a fully defensive shield stacker. I usually like your opinion on balance, but I think you underestimate how difficult it is to drop shields without proc sets.

Take proc sets away, and decent mag sorcs will be unkillable again. Shields desperately need to be toned down, if we do not want to balance for broken stuff (Proc sets).

It`s a dilemma ZOS has caused, I would wonder if they even have identified it yet (the secondary balancing issues caused by proc sets).

If your having problems against shield users you use shieldbreaker, it tears them down easy. And you know what's harder to kill than a shield stacker? A dodge roller on crack who dodges my burst without a scratch, that's annoying as hell.

Lord-Otto

psychotic13 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

The class shield doesn't cover almost more than their full health bar, that would be 2 or 3 shields stacked on top of each other. The class shield is only about 10-15k by itself in pvp. I think that the ability to stack shields is more of a problem than them being uncrittable. Put cp into "shattering blows" if you want to do more damage to shields. The main reason you can't crit a shield is because they don't "crit" themselves; they are always the same size every time you cast them. They would need a buff in size if they were to be crit.

I tried shattering blows, its really not great, certainly not a game changer vs shields. I run a 5.7k wpn damage build atm (I refuse to use direct dmg proc sets), but you know what? It`s really freaking hard to drop a fully defensive shield stacker. I usually like your opinion on balance, but I think you underestimate how difficult it is to drop shields without proc sets.

Take proc sets away, and decent mag sorcs will be unkillable again. Shields desperately need to be toned down, if we do not want to balance for broken stuff (Proc sets).

It`s a dilemma ZOS has caused, I would wonder if they even have identified it yet (the secondary balancing issues caused by proc sets).

If your having problems against shield users you use shieldbreaker, it tears them down easy. And you know what's harder to kill than a shield stacker? A dodge roller on crack who dodges my burst without a scratch, that's annoying as hell.

This.

RinaldoGandolphi

Damage shields are not overpowered anymore. We cut their size in half in Cyrodiil, we reduced their duration by 70% when will this ever end? It's ridiculous.

I quit playing my Sorc because the class is to squishy. You make even one mistake and your dead. My Templar can be crit 1700 damage from a Selene proc, shrug it off and cave in the facr of the night blade that tried it, and I'm not forced to spam a shield every 5 seconds to stay alive losing lots of DPS in the process.

I'd be fine with then nerfing shields if they would change steak back to how it was. In 1.x I was SQISHY but I was mobile. Soft caps wouldn't let you have unlimited resources and absurd size shields

The endless needs to streak turned Sorc into the turret class...you camp mines and spam ranged DPS. Too bad that playstyle is boring as poo. I rolled a Sorc at launch because I could be a squishy caster that could kite and throw lighting, now they pushed it to a turret class with shield spam instead of mobility, now they taking that away making it simply a turret class

Look at Nightblades and Templars their classes have clear directions that make sense now, Sorcs only direction is simply nerfs.

RinaldoGandolphi

If Ezareth was still around he wouldn't play Sorc either in its terrible state, he quit when they changed double reflect. I don't blame him, they just keep removing counter play and Sorc are the most nerfed class in the game...7 nerfs to Bolt Escape alone...it's absurd

Sorcs got absolutely nothing on PTS. The Curse change is a joke and only will matter in PVE. 8.5 secs is an eternity in pvp most sorcs will recast because you need the shorter window to burst.

The changes to DK Dragon Blood will take folks to full health from 10% the buff to Ferious Leap and Whip just you wait...many of the folks who were not around in 2014 are gonna see jos OP DK were...that heal was the only thing keeping from tanking 20 people and wiping 20 with Bat Swarm+Burning Talons +Draw Essence with some hard hitting Whips in there.

Folks won't be crying about shields much longer

AzuraKin

Dahood2 wrote: »

The fact that you cant crit a shielded player has been consistently ruining pvp for me. Why grant a class a shield that covers almost more than their full health bar that cant be crit? I see no balance it. If the devs have any insights or explanation please share, although they wont. Im so confused as to why I have to do 2.5x more damage to a shielded player. Is there a real reason you cant crit a shield? There should definitely be some drawbacks to spamming a shield over and over.

sure, but we will allow them to crit shields.

Mojomonkeyman

psychotic13 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

The class shield doesn't cover almost more than their full health bar, that would be 2 or 3 shields stacked on top of each other. The class shield is only about 10-15k by itself in pvp. I think that the ability to stack shields is more of a problem than them being uncrittable. Put cp into "shattering blows" if you want to do more damage to shields. The main reason you can't crit a shield is because they don't "crit" themselves; they are always the same size every time you cast them. They would need a buff in size if they were to be crit.

I tried shattering blows, its really not great, certainly not a game changer vs shields. I run a 5.7k wpn damage build atm (I refuse to use direct dmg proc sets), but you know what? It`s really freaking hard to drop a fully defensive shield stacker. I usually like your opinion on balance, but I think you underestimate how difficult it is to drop shields without proc sets.

Take proc sets away, and decent mag sorcs will be unkillable again. Shields desperately need to be toned down, if we do not want to balance for broken stuff (Proc sets).

It`s a dilemma ZOS has caused, I would wonder if they even have identified it yet (the secondary balancing issues caused by proc sets).

If your having problems against shield users you use shieldbreaker, it tears them down easy. And you know what's harder to kill than a shield stacker? A dodge roller on crack who dodges my burst without a scratch, that's annoying as hell.

So we should forget about issues with shields because dodge rolling is annoying you? That`s separate issues and I was assuming we talk shields in here.

Of course I will use shield breaker next patch. And the very same people who tell me now to basically l2p will cry rivers again how oh so cheesy and unfair shieldbreaker is not realizing that mag sorc shields could be perceived similarly.

I mean, do me a favor, try putting yourself in the shoes of the opposition. Ask the best mag sorc you know to just shield and breakfree with a cookie cutter lich build against your highest damage stamina non gank build that uses no direct damage procs and see what you can achieve. I`m pretty sure you will understand my position a little better afterwards.

neutronenstern

*** off with your nerf threads, seriously, you are ruining this lovely game.

Cant you just play it and stop crying?

Biro123

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I mean, do me a favor, try putting yourself in the shoes of the opposition. Ask the best mag sorc you know to just shield and breakfree with a cookie cutter lich build against your highest damage stamina non gank build that uses no direct damage procs and see what you can achieve. I`m pretty sure you will understand my position a little better afterwards.

I'll tell you what will happen (but how many stam builds use no proc sets?).. Each hit will take down 75-90% of the shield (based on me getting hit for 11.5k WB off a tanky DK - assuming that's a crit so non-crit = around 7k - but then no resists on a shield so maybe 8k. Then add in weaves and weapon procs).

The sorc can stand there and tank it as long as no CC is attempted and as long as he has resources. The sorc needs to shield every single cooldown to stay alive and cannot attack back. TO break the stalemate, he will need to do something to avoid dmg to his shields for a sec (stun opponent or rolldodge - risking no stam for breakfree later).. But regardless sorc is not hurting stam-dude, just as stam-dude is not hurting sorc. Is that so bad?

Now translate that to open-world. It just takes one more person to add to that fight to destroy the sorc. To max shields, the sorc is in light armour with maxed magicka and no impen. Assuming the sorc is pretty much locked into a cycle of constant shielding, One more similar person adding to the fight will destroy the sorc in 2 seconds. IT DOES NOT SCALE. Really, its the unkillable Templar and DK tanks you want to be looking at - y'know the ones that can tank 10 people for 5 minutes..

And yes, roll-dodge IS a valid comparison. Surely to assess if a specific type of defence is too strong, you should be comparing it to the other types, yes?

The real problem with shields is the same as the problem with heals - in that their strength is determined by the same stats as your damage - so upping dmg generally ups your defence too. There isn't enough give and take. But that's a core mechanic of the game which affects all classes - not just shields.

Mojomonkeyman

Biro123 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I mean, do me a favor, try putting yourself in the shoes of the opposition. Ask the best mag sorc you know to just shield and breakfree with a cookie cutter lich build against your highest damage stamina non gank build that uses no direct damage procs and see what you can achieve. I`m pretty sure you will understand my position a little better afterwards.

The sorc can stand there and tank it as long as no CC is attempted and as long as he has resources. The sorc needs to shield every single cooldown to stay alive and cannot attack back. TO break the stalemate, he will need to do something to avoid dmg to his shields for a sec (stun opponent or rolldodge - risking no stam for breakfree later).. But regardless sorc is not hurting stam-dude, just as stam-dude is not hurting sorc. Is that so bad?

Yes, it is really bad for a solo player in open world environment, if every build out there can stall their death for ages even in builds that are non-tank builds. If a solo player cannot kill before reinforcements come even if dominating the fight, then solo play becomes non-viable.

aLi3nZ

What stam players forget is that sorc has no 20% dodge chance and can't dodge roll and has to use light armour.

Meanwhile there is heavy armour meta going on these days while the stam users just dodge roll and shuffle dodge chance half the attacks a sorc try's to throw at them while spamming vigor and rally.

Shields were already nerfed into the ground. But I will admit that I started shield stacking again. I found Harness magika is just too good for sustain so have it on my defensive bar along with healing ward while hardened ward is on my fromt bar. And yes if I feel like it I will stack em together so I can actually get off a burst rotation.