Bring back the true Orcs

RealLifeRedguard

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

Droku wrote: »

- Elfs turned into Orcs a very long time ago and transformed suddenly instead of evolving over a long period. Their god transformed over a short time as well and gave them after his return a completely new lifestyle.

I think you mix up established in-universe lore and infallible "omniscient" lore there.
Like, I prefer to think that orcs evolved over a long period - and you can not prove me I'm wrong, just like I can't prove you that I see the (fictional) truth either. Because mythos are made of this, more or less convincing explanations, and Faith.

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

BTW, Orsimer folk were seen as animals in 1st and 2nd era, so any lore friendliness of DC stops there.

I could accept the way ESO handled this if they acknowledged the context at all. Sure we can just assume that the bretons and redguards were completely racist and irredeemable, and that they were so cruel to the orsimer for no reason, but is that in any way interesting or nuanced? Are we really to believe that the orcs were ONLY misunderstood and they really were always this civilized? It's just poor worldbuilding and even worse writing.

I won't say it is a matter of good or bad writing. Indeed the fans did make their own vision about the game lore. But if we are talking about general logic - or a kind of realism TES could tend to - then you should consider IRL history, European peoples killing each other for some times and befriending for some other times. French and Germans seeing each other as beasts just 100 years ago, even though we are the same species, and now we're allied. (If you're an American, then let's take the example of how the Japanese were depicted during WWII - and so on, anywhere at any time.) Then let's imagine what could happen in a world with at least two species like mer and men.

I'd say the same thing on the complains about the "illogic behavior" of argonians supporting the dunmer, right after having been their slaves. If we admit this, how could we figure out black people supporting the USA right along the XXth century ? hehe

That said, I totally agree when you explain how the game plot and geopolitics lack more nuanced cases like the Telvanni. (I like to roleplay non-alliance-aligned characters and guild, so I share this point of view.)

The original storyline displays few complex situations. Everything seems linear. The Veiled Heritance is bad because they are bad racists, and by chance, bad daedric cultists in the end. The bad bosmer are bad because they aligned themselves with bad wood orcs and bad Daedric Prince - and the peaceful ones that made their way apart from the AD just burnt in The City of Ash...

Indeed the fantasy of many races have been dramatically toned down.

The Redguard plot was one of my disappointments (at first - then TG did add some atmosphere, even if it still lacks an "african" flavour). The worst imo were the Altmer... I saw just no fantasy there. Well, at least the landscape was cool.

But unlike the OP I am fine with the Orcs in ESO. I found them one of the most interesting races to be honest. The amazing mash-up of classical elven, ork-ish and dwarven features... and their homes having a real "atmosphere". Just my feeling.

I had a feeling someone was going to bring up real world examples of illogical dehumanization of other people, and they're valid points to make. But it goes beyond realism in my opinion. It's just not interesting. The examples you've listed above are pretty black and white in terms of our modern perceptions of morality. From an historical standpoint it's important to study these things, but from a storytelling standpoint it's difficult to make such a black and white conflict compelling, especially if we're supposed to relate to both sides.

Notice how, in media that touches upon these topics, the focus is almost always on one side: because the other side isn't relatable, is unsympathetic, and therefore is uninteresting to most people. If exceptions are made, say a movie about a slave-master or *** officer, then you're either not supposed to be on "the side" of these characters, or they're intentionally designed as exceptions to the rule by defying the otherwise irredeemable and unsympathetic standard by having an altered worldview, set of behaviors, and/or an evolution of character as time goes on.

So where does that leave us with TES and the DC conflict?

Well, we've known since Daggerfall that the only thing bretons hate more than each other and the redguards are the orcs. We know that both redguards and bretons have teamed up to defeat their common enemy, and we know that both redguards and bretons have seen orcs as sub-sentient monsters for centuries. We finally get to see the orcs in their "prime" only to discover that they're just green, slightly mongolian humans.

So either the bretons and redguards have, for the vast majority of history, been completely unsympathetic disgusting vicious sociopathic genocidal racists, and shortly after the Daggerfall Covenent falls apart will continue to be completely unsympathetic disgusting vicious sociopathic genocidal racists until the time of TESII: Daggerfall, or we need a more balanced, nuanced situation where each side has its flaws and there's truth to every stereotype. Of course the real world rarely works like that, but that's why we make stories.

As of now, it seems the bretons and redguards have just been psychotic *** who randomly decided to stop being *** for a brief moment.

Enslaved

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

unsympathetic disgusting vicious sociopathic genocidal racists

This is pretty accurate description of common Breton.

Ajaxandriel

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

As of now, it seems the bretons and redguards have just been psychotic *** who randomly decided to stop being *** for a brief moment.

I see your point. Then, isn't this from an historical black-and-white moral standpoint too ?
If the bretons and redguards -now- appears like the monsters, it is because we just met and saw the orc people from the inside in the first place, right ? We would clealry have prefered more alien orcs, with more different cultural standards, to hightligh the (past and future) hatred between humans and them, but well...

I do think that twisting geopolitics can become suited story tellings. Even showing one side then the other... and letting the reader/player either take sides, or see how vain and "dommed" the peoples are.

I agree the matter is that the game story lacks some more "casus belli", to explain what is going to happen. They balanced in favor of the orc perception, but now we may be too far in the other way - and the story should be balanced again to "justify" breton and redguard (future...) actions.
For instance (well, forgive me for this) Warcraft movie finale did it quite well, showing what pushes each side into their own certitudes - towards ongoing war.

When I read the topic I had the impression that the main matter was the orcs to be playable as members of an Alliance, or to be playable at all. Of course since we have the option to play them - and we deserve this - there must be an "excuse" for them to be included. And the way they chose is not that bad.
Thinking about it, indeed it's just Kurog the human-adapted mercenary who allowed orcs into the Covenant. Finally, Wrothgar itself is not aligned. In the end Orsinium appears to be not, too. Politically, orcs are still outcasts that some adventurers came to help...

Majic

Never mind the true Orcs, I say bring back the true Scotsman!

As for "unsympathetic disgusting vicious sociopathic genocidal racists", seriously, that could be anybody. If real world human history teaches us anything, it teaches us that.

Mr_Apollo

Well, it would make sense really...I mean, ESO is set a thousand years (if not more) before the game Skyrim is set, so it would make sense really that they started their armour like that (eso) and soon improved to a much later and more detailed one that some people know it as the orcish armour from Skyrim.

RealLifeRedguard

Majic wrote: »

Never mind the true Orcs, I say bring back the true Scotsman!

As for "unsympathetic disgusting vicious sociopathic genocidal racists", seriously, that could be anybody. If real world human history teaches us anything, it teaches us that.

Like I said in my earlier post though, it's not a matter of realism. It's just not interesting. It's a black and white scenario where only one side is remotely sympathetic, and yet we're supposed to root for all three races.

AzuraKin

Droku wrote: »

Blood and power,

With this thread, I would like to talk about a topic which was on my mind since the beginning of Elder Scrolls Online. It’s about the Orcs, my personal favourite race in Elder Scrolls.
In my opinion, the developers of Zenimax have quite an inappropriate portrayal of the Orcs and transferred this also into the game. The Orcs of Elder Scrolls Online correspond hardly to their counterparts in the other Elder Scrolls games and to the corresponding and original lore. Of course, it was Skyrim which is very decisive here, but it is decisive for many things anyway. I will now make some examples to illustrate what I mean.

1. Gear and appearance

What we learnt in previous games about the Orcs is, that their gear is one of the best you can find in Tamriel. Above all, forged objects like heavy armour and weapons are remarkably effective, which is because of the military culture of the Orcs as well as their knowledge about the processing of ore, first and foremost orichalcum. As strong as these weapons and armours are, they are regarded as absolutely hideous amongst most of the other peoples. For one thing, the trade of the Orcs is very practical and that’s why they go almost in every case without squiggly decorations on weapons and armours; and for the other, their trade is noticeably coarse, that’s why their weapons and armours seem to be quite brutish.
The Orcs in ESO have obviously gotten totally new clothing which doesn’t correspond to their principles nor does it look classically “orcish”. There are aesthetics and squiggles, which doesn’t make any sense nor is it really brutish.
For example, axes, swords and cuirasses. Above ESO, below Skyrim.





I think this development is a pity. Also the so-called “Ancient Orcs” with Wrothgar couldn’t really bring something of the desired orcish culture with them.
They have fine crafted gear decorated with runes as well which reminds me more of the classical Dwarves from Middle Earth or the Nords than of Orcs.



Also, the Orcs themselves have gotten on average a somehow softer and more human appearance. This isn’t necessarily bad but I miss a little the rough Orcs.
A little comparison. (Elder Scrolls Legends, Skyrim, ESO)









2. The character
What I personally noticed is, that the character of a lot of Orcs became very “human”. I don’t talk about the so-called “city-orcs”, Orcs who have decided to live with humans or grew up with them. There it is logic and likely that they have such characteristics and behaviour. But also the Orcs who live traditionally have somehow a lot of human characteristics and worldviews. They can only partly convey their own culture convincingly and it appears often a little posed; like they were actors who play something which they not really are. Most of the Orcs appear as the rough but actually kind-hearted thug or the harmless drunkard from next door. They could as well be humans that way. You don’t really get a feeling of an own species with its own moral values and worldviews.
A lot of wars against the Orcs have been fought because of considerable cultural differences and prejudices. That’s one of the reasons why they are considered an exiled and expelled people. Exactly these cultural differences are too little perceptible. When you talk to an Orc, you could often have the same conversation with any rough human as well, because they appear as if they had the same values or views and as if empathy with them was no problem, which makes the Tamrielic hate for orcs pretty much invalid. Often, Orcs just appear as “better Nords”. Tough blokes who drink and fight but actually only want to do the right thing. Instead, I would like to have the secluded and corrupted people of warmongers with its own ideas of honour, moral and love; the people which differs boldly from humans and which we could get to know in the history of Elder Scrolls.

3. Religion
The religion of most of the Orcs in ESO has been shaken up strongly. The name Mauloch has become popular, while the god of the Orcs is mainly useful as a prattle-monger and can’t be taken as serious as the great Malacath of the old times. Apart from that, he appears for a lot of Orcs to have only a slight or symbolic significance. This “Mauloch” also lacks the daedric influence which was decisive for the Orcs and which could be seen in their appearance, their lifestyle and their armours.
Malacath, the god of curses, of blood and of the expelled became a comparatively harmless counterpart which fits probably better in the Daggerfall Covenant than a daedric prince. I think that’s a pity.
In the end I would like to say that this is all criticism on a high level and that I think that Elder Scrolls Online is in itself definitely a successful work which I like to spend a lot of time in and I still will do so in the future. But exactly that’s why it was important to me to talk about that.

Kind regards,
Droku

(P.S. I'm not a native English speaker but I tried my best to translate it accurately.)

actually orcish gear, which is the gear associated with orc crafting was merely high end medium quality.

AzuraKin

oh and lets not forget the biggest fact of all

orcs are just giant goblins.

BadLuckCharm

UrQuan wrote: »

Mallepele wrote: »

Khajiit and Argonies also got more and more human in every TES game,

Um, actually here's the evolution of Khajiit over each TES game:

This should be interesting. I started with TESO.

Arena

Hm. Sexy-ish humans, i guess.

Daggerfall

Humans with tails. Heh heh.

Morrowind

Ew, weird. Those legs, man. Can they actually work?

Oblivion

WAAAAAAH! AHHHHH! AHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Holy COW! Don't DO that!

Skyrim

A bit creepy.
Yeah, creepy. Like cat-demons.

ESO

This looks most like cat people.

Raskahn

Hmm...for me cat demons are cooler. But unconfortunately not what Eso wants us to play.

I would like to have the ability to create one.

notimetocare

*sets female face slider all the way to soft* ORC FACES ARE TOO SOFT

Set that ahit to heroic and say it again

slumber_sandb16_ESO

There is one option for horns in the character creator. One. And I cant even use facial hair with the horns.

I'd love it if they made Orcs more bestial, more brutish looking, less human. I'd even go so far as to say all non human races should get some updated animations.

Orc movement - Heavier, bulkier feel, less light on their feet, slightly hunched over due to their manly upper body mass.(even for females. Its well known Orc females are manlier than the males of any other race.)

Orc fighting - Heavier, less elegant, more brutish. Example: Light attack is a vertical chop instead of a horizontal slash, give a feel of the orc pummeling their foe into the ground.


Other things I'd want to see:

More horn options
Horns tied to eyebrows rather than adornments
Tusks options
Less human features, more crude/bestial/brutish features
More brutish/bestial voice options

Koensol

What I noticed most when I started playing ESO, is the difference in names. From what I know, when orcs live in their stronghold, they have regular names. But when they leave and travel the lands, their name changes and they get a prefix: for males it is "gro-(insert stronghold name or name of father) and for females it is "gra"(insert stronghold name or name of mother). I haven't seen a single orc in ESO with such a name, while in all other ES games, orcs had names like that. http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Orc_Names

Droku

slumber_sandb16_ESO wrote: »

There is one option for horns in the character creator. One. And I cant even use facial hair with the horns.

slumber_sandb16_ESO wrote: »

Other things I'd want to see:

More horn options
Horns tied to eyebrows rather than adornments
Tusks options
Less human features, more crude/bestial/brutish features
More brutish/bestial voice options

This.

charley222

i just come back in the game and miss this great topic 110% agree
i got the same issue in 2014 https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/124072/skyrim-orc-vs-eso-orc-and-skyrim-barbarian-style-vs-eso-barbarian-style

i have 1 question for the people making the art something i dont understand ??

why the basic orc motif armor the helmet have the face cover ? like a robot and all other elder scrroll game the helmet is open face ? also even in the game the npc have the open helmet ? here why the orc need to look like robot ??? player have the option to pay in the crown store to have the face paint but this version of the helmet cover everything Oo ??? thank you and let hope for 1 answer

Huyen

You seem to forget this is only the second era. Orisinium is bound to be sacked countless times till the fourth era anyway. Give them some time to evolve, and use new and better armor.

Jade1986

Orcs are not all mindless brutes. The ones in Skyrim are not an accurate depiction of what all orcs are like in Tamriel, not by a long shot. I think they did a pretty good job of diversifying the orsimer in this game.

LadyNalcarya

I agree that ESO orcs look weird, especially as vampires. I dont know, something about their facial structure just seems off. I dont know, most of them look kinda silly and cartoon-ish (and not in a good way).

Speaking of Khajiits, I think that ESO and Skyrim versions of khajiits are the best. I really like all the customization options in ESO (fur colors/patterns etc), and if I could choose my racial bonuses, all my chars would be khajiits and wood elves.

Droku

I agree, @charley222
The face covers are very unnecessary. It looks weird and I think with that kind of helmets you can't see anything.

PlagueSD

Yes, bring the original orcs back...




Oops, wrong game...

The_Smilemeister

PlagueSD

The_Smilemeister wrote: »

What are you talking about? It's still current year post...Now if it was a post from 2-3 years ago, yes. I agree.

Jade1986

PlagueSD wrote: »

Yes, bring the original orcs back...




Oops, wrong game...

Zug zug, work work. xD.

The_Smilemeister

PlagueSD wrote: »

The_Smilemeister wrote: »

What are you talking about? It's still current year post...Now if it was a post from 2-3 years ago, yes. I agree.

It died after January, it was temporarily resurrected half way through the year, it was brought back to life just before halloween, and it got resurrected yet again days later. I stand by my post. Let the thread rest in peace.

Resfeber

...I'll admit it. I only opened this thread to make sure GhettoKid had stopped in.

Jayman1000

Another racists thread!! Didn't we already agree that racism was bad mkay, and must be stomped out where it shows it face? Look, there's no such thing as "true orcs". Any kind of Orc is ORKay with me, brown orc, green orc, human orc, elf orc.

Orcs are human too!

The_Smilemeister

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Another racists thread!! Didn't we already agree that racism was bad mkay, and must be stomped out where it shows it face? Look, there's no such thing as "true orcs". Any kind of Orc is ORKay with me, brown orc, green orc, human orc, elf orc.

Orcs are human too!

Humans? They're elves!

dodgehopper_ESO

Riejael wrote: »

Those that think Orcs in ESO look 'too human' forget that this isn't Warcraft (the franchise), Warhammer, or even Everquest. This is Elder Scrolls.

Orcs or Orismer are Elves. Meaning their culture and civilization goes back further than any humans.

Factually incorrect. They simply have some different origins. Old Ehlnofey represent the ancestors of the Mer, and the Wandering Ehlnofey represent the ancestors of men. The 'Old' notation means they had been on Tamriel for some time before the men showed up. This doesn't actually mean they had been around longer. Check out the Annotated Anuad.

Huyen

Jade1986 wrote: »

PlagueSD wrote: »

Yes, bring the original orcs back...




Oops, wrong game...

Zug zug, work work. xD.

Something needs doing?

starkerealm

charley222 wrote: »

why the basic orc motif armor the helmet have the face cover ? like a robot and all other elder scrroll game the helmet is open face ?

The Morrowind variant had a closed face mask. So, it's not just ESO.