Bring back the true Orcs

Droku

Blood and power,

With this thread, I would like to talk about a topic which was on my mind since the beginning of Elder Scrolls Online. It’s about the Orcs, my personal favourite race in Elder Scrolls.
In my opinion, the developers of Zenimax have quite an inappropriate portrayal of the Orcs and transferred this also into the game. The Orcs of Elder Scrolls Online correspond hardly to their counterparts in the other Elder Scrolls games and to the corresponding and original lore. Of course, it was Skyrim which is very decisive here, but it is decisive for many things anyway. I will now make some examples to illustrate what I mean.

1. Gear and appearance

What we learnt in previous games about the Orcs is, that their gear is one of the best you can find in Tamriel. Above all, forged objects like heavy armour and weapons are remarkably effective, which is because of the military culture of the Orcs as well as their knowledge about the processing of ore, first and foremost orichalcum. As strong as these weapons and armours are, they are regarded as absolutely hideous amongst most of the other peoples. For one thing, the trade of the Orcs is very practical and that’s why they go almost in every case without squiggly decorations on weapons and armours; and for the other, their trade is noticeably coarse, that’s why their weapons and armours seem to be quite brutish.
The Orcs in ESO have obviously gotten totally new clothing which doesn’t correspond to their principles nor does it look classically “orcish”. There are aesthetics and squiggles, which doesn’t make any sense nor is it really brutish.
For example, axes, swords and cuirasses. Above ESO, below Skyrim.





I think this development is a pity. Also the so-called “Ancient Orcs” with Wrothgar couldn’t really bring something of the desired orcish culture with them.
They have fine crafted gear decorated with runes as well which reminds me more of the classical Dwarves from Middle Earth or the Nords than of Orcs.



Also, the Orcs themselves have gotten on average a somehow softer and more human appearance. This isn’t necessarily bad but I miss a little the rough Orcs.
A little comparison. (Elder Scrolls Legends, Skyrim, ESO)









2. The character
What I personally noticed is, that the character of a lot of Orcs became very “human”. I don’t talk about the so-called “city-orcs”, Orcs who have decided to live with humans or grew up with them. There it is logic and likely that they have such characteristics and behaviour. But also the Orcs who live traditionally have somehow a lot of human characteristics and worldviews. They can only partly convey their own culture convincingly and it appears often a little posed; like they were actors who play something which they not really are. Most of the Orcs appear as the rough but actually kind-hearted thug or the harmless drunkard from next door. They could as well be humans that way. You don’t really get a feeling of an own species with its own moral values and worldviews.
A lot of wars against the Orcs have been fought because of considerable cultural differences and prejudices. That’s one of the reasons why they are considered an exiled and expelled people. Exactly these cultural differences are too little perceptible. When you talk to an Orc, you could often have the same conversation with any rough human as well, because they appear as if they had the same values or views and as if empathy with them was no problem, which makes the Tamrielic hate for orcs pretty much invalid. Often, Orcs just appear as “better Nords”. Tough blokes who drink and fight but actually only want to do the right thing. Instead, I would like to have the secluded and corrupted people of warmongers with its own ideas of honour, moral and love; the people which differs boldly from humans and which we could get to know in the history of Elder Scrolls.

3. Religion
The religion of most of the Orcs in ESO has been shaken up strongly. The name Mauloch has become popular, while the god of the Orcs is mainly useful as a prattle-monger and can’t be taken as serious as the great Malacath of the old times. Apart from that, he appears for a lot of Orcs to have only a slight or symbolic significance. This “Mauloch” also lacks the daedric influence which was decisive for the Orcs and which could be seen in their appearance, their lifestyle and their armours.
Malacath, the god of curses, of blood and of the expelled became a comparatively harmless counterpart which fits probably better in the Daggerfall Covenant than a daedric prince. I think that’s a pity.
In the end I would like to say that this is all criticism on a high level and that I think that Elder Scrolls Online is in itself definitely a successful work which I like to spend a lot of time in and I still will do so in the future. But exactly that’s why it was important to me to talk about that.

Kind regards,
Droku

(P.S. I'm not a native English speaker but I tried my best to translate it accurately.)

Kendo12

Yes please...I hate how Orcs look in this game, too human

LMar

You forget that Orcs have had to make sacrifices to join the Covenant. Mauloch is just a rebrand so that the Covenant doesn't throw a tandrum and curb stomp them again. It doesn't last of course. The Orcs in Orsinium are already rejecting the Covenant. Also most of the Orcs you meet are indeed city orcs.

As for the designs of weapons and armor, strong and sturdy doesn't mean it doesn't look good. Also triangles and patterns make designs structurally stronger. And designs between eras differ as you see. Skyrim and ESO have 1000 year difference. Now compare armour in Oblivion and Skyrim xD

The quests in Orsinium also betray a bloody struggle between them and external forces. I quite enjoyed learning more from them but i also enjoy the stronghold life we saw in past games. This is a different aspect of them that is just as essential to know them fully.

MasterSpatula

Considering this is a comparison of Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim Orcish armor



I have no problem with the Orcish of a millennium previous looking like it does.

EDIT: In fact, I would say this actually does a pretty decent job of integrating all those styles:

LMar

That Morrowind armour is ridiculously good looking

EvilCroc

There is no universal orc concept across TES series. So ZOS are free to choose their on path. I am not a great fan of ESO orc style, but I can accept it. Morrowind and Oblivion ones was mush worse.

Raskahn

I also think that the Orcs in Teso are way to human. I too, miss the typical properties like the brutish behaviour and beastly- like appearance. For example more horns and bigger fangs (f.e. at the foreheads, eyebrows etc.) which I really liked a lot.
An Orc in Eso moves like any other people, fights like any other people and his posture is the same as like other people. There really is no much difference except of the appearance. I also miss the feeling of a cursed and abhorred folk, which may is founded in the formation of the three alliances where Orcs have to fit in the society for a while.
The graphics in Skyrim or the other games shouldn`t be the reason for complaints. They were all great and designed with great effort like Eso as well.
But it`s true that the armour and the weapons of the Orcs in Eso doesn`t look brutish at all.
I also don`t really get the feeling that I`m playing a game which you should not play under 18.
Sure, there are a lot of corpses and burned cities, destroyed families etc., but this content appears in many other games, which are approved for teens. I don`t see really brutish behaviour or really brutish violence, ecspecially the orcish one. If there is something that includes that, it`s often circumscribed in a softer and not direct way. I don`t want Eso to transfer into a frenetic violence game, of course. I just thought that it would be nice, if there were some more authentic content which directly reminds you that this game is not made for minors.


But yeah, also criticism on a high level and in general I really like this game. Therefore I think it`s a good thing to leave some ideas behind that may be used by the developers and discuss.

Regards and such,
Raskahn

mvffins

Its how it should be; before ESO came out the devs said that they were trying to find a happy medium between the styles of morrowind/oblivion/skyrim. As you should know armor and races in morrowind look a lot different than those in skyrim so they had a wide berth to try and accommodate.

I remember on the forums during alpha/beta that some morrowind die-hards wanted khajiit legs all bent and bow like again.

You also have to remember that what you wore in those games wasn't really a style but an armor class.

Raskahn

Yeah, that`s true, they wanted to find a medium between all games.
I do prefer another armour, but it`s not the only reason this thread was made for. It also includes culture, characters and behaviour and I think these are often very different from what I learned about the Orcs in Tes before.

In Eso-legends the Orc.."cards" fit pretty much more in what an Orc is like, as the characters do in Eso and it would be great, if they could bring also a "happy medium" to thie current content.

SantieClaws

Wait, wait.

Are you saying the apprentice Sherlock Gro Bones is no true orc?

If this is true khajiit remains curious and concerned as to what he really might be ...

Yours with paws
Santie Claws



Sherlock at Alcaire Castle

Fodore

I would argue that the orcs in skyrim got new clothing, seeing as ESO is 1000 years before it. Buuuuut I do get what you say by the lore, in my opinion the ESO weapons can still be classified as Brutish to an extent but the orcs have done what they can to add some kind of attraction.

Danikat

It might be deliberate.

The orcs were originally aldmer - the original elven race that also produced the altmer, bosmer and dunmer. They were changed physically when their god Trinimac was eaten by Boethia late in the Mythic Era but I would have thought cultural changes would happen more slowly.

Since ESO is set about 800 years before Morrowind (and about 1000 years before Skyrim) that cultural transition hasn't progressed as far, so their culture and style would be closer to the altmer than in other games. Which fits with the more delicate and intricate designs we see in-game, with even more decoration on the ancient orc style.

It also helps explain the change between Morrowind and Skyrim.

(I suspect, even without looking, that Arena and Daggerfall showed them using much less intricate equipment but I suspect that would be true for all the other races as well and has more to do with graphical capability and style than lore.)

(Apologies for any spelling mistakes, my spelling isn't great even with real words and I'm at work so I can't keep going to wikis to check spelling of names.)

Mallepele

I have to say I've never been much of a fan of the orsimer)
In my opinion the orsimer were made (like all the races) more mass compatible to make them playable for a wider community of players
This starts and affects mostly cosmetic issues (mostly on female character models), and it also does into the Lore, to make Orsimer not just an outsiders race, but to give reasons for many orsimer running around in each fraction and area.
Other races like e.g. my favorites the dunmer also got much more prettier in comparison to skyrim, as well as they wear heavy armors not made out of bones (probably it would make too little sense that you collect ores but then the armor is made out of bones...)
Khajiit and Argonies also got more and more human in every TES game, its also much easier for the developers to use the same body template for each race with just some adjustments then to create a totally differnt physiology and way they are in their bodyshape
All in all ESO is an MMORPG and many many things have been the result of an hybrid-game out of a classical TES game and an MMO, to please both kind of players. So ofc the optics and the lore and settings had some adjustments (For me its much more disturbing to accept that dunmer/nord/argonians teamed up, so that ZOS could create a 3 Alliance PvP and there were no other geographical or ideoligical possibilities)
But you have to accept that, OR you decide not to and see ESO not as a part of the TES series and lore
Its up to you...

TheShadowScout

Dunmer may be my favorites, but orsimer are a close second. And I have no issues whatsoever with how ESO portrays them, we get a wide range, from "civilized2 orcs in orsinium trying to build a kingdom equal to any of the other races, to brutish wood orcs in valenwood, from traditional mauloch-worshipping herders on the plains of wrothgar to orc mercenaries all over the covenant...

My orc girl tertiary character and craftsmistress fits right in, really:

Faulgor

No offense, but it sounds like you only played Skyrim.
Orcs are a pariah folk. They live scattered throughout Tamriel because they aren't really welcome anywhere, without a significant homeland, even though they tried to establish it in High Rock several times. That means you will find Orcs leading all kinds of lifestyles - as mercenaries in other cultures, highly civilized city orcs, fierce and primal wood orcs, the iron orcs of Craglorn, the strongholds in Skyrim, etc. To reduce their cultures and craftsmanship to the run-down strongholds of 4th era Skyrim is dismissive of their own long and varied history as well as their Aldmeri ancestry.

LMar wrote: »

That Morrowind armour is ridiculously good looking

Yeah. It's a shame we have like 4 Orcish styles (Orc, Ancient Orc, Malacath, Trinimac), and none look like the classic Morrowind or even Oblivion armor. Obviously it has been influenced by Akaviri styles, but the Potentate ended about 200 years ago in ESO, so there's no reason you wouldn't see such styles now.

Solid_Metal

Faulgor wrote: »

No offense, but it sounds like you only played Skyrim.
Orcs are a pariah folk. They live scattered throughout Tamriel because they aren't really welcome anywhere, without a significant homeland, even though they tried to establish it in High Rock several times. That means you will find Orcs leading all kinds of lifestyles - as mercenaries in other cultures, highly civilized city orcs, fierce and primal wood orcs, the iron orcs of Craglorn, the strongholds in Skyrim, etc. To reduce their cultures and craftsmanship to the run-down strongholds of 4th era Skyrim is dismissive of their own long and varied history as well as their Aldmeri ancestry.

LMar wrote: »

That Morrowind armour is ridiculously good looking

Yeah. It's a shame we have like 4 Orcish styles (Orc, Ancient Orc, Malacath, Trinimac), and none look like the classic Morrowind or even Oblivion armor. Obviously it has been influenced by Akaviri styles, but the Potentate ended about 200 years ago in ESO, so there's no reason you wouldn't see such styles now.

this

i think the idea of orc in general that TS get is only from Skyrim, if you see this : http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:MW-item-Orcish_Weapons.jpg

even the morrowind one the orcish weapon is actually quite fancy , the orc that you find in skyrim are not native high establish orc, they are mercenaries, somewhat nomaden, hence imo the crude style weapons and armor
and also need to consider the age, since ESO and Skyrim have 1000 years gap

Droku

Thank you very much for the lively discussion. I would like to reply to some of the points that are mentioned in the comments.

- I agree that there are several sorts of Orcs and that they differ from region to region in that they have different appearances and I also support that, but I miss the traditional wild Orcs who live in tribes. I find it definitely logic that the Orcs evolved in multiple ways but I think a lot of Orcs in ESO lack a serious reason why they are hated in a lot of places throughout Tamriel because their characteristics don't really seem to differ from the other peoples. I also agree that the Orcs were made more mass compatible like other races but that doesn't mean that I appreciate this.

- Elfs turned into Orcs a very long time ago and transformed suddenly instead of evolving over a long period. Their god transformed over a short time as well and gave them after his return a completely new lifestyle.

- I do know Morrowind and Oblivion and I played both. The Orcs have been interpreted differently again and again and had a Mongolian touch regarding their gear, even if this showed up differently over time. I preferred Skyrim as an example because it's the most recent game before ESO and Legends. Also, the Orcs in Elder Scrolls Legends correspond more to the picture of the rough Orcs than the one in ESO, which I personally find is a pity.

- I would like to emphasize that the appearance is only one point. I think the whole culture of the Orcs in ESO should be more striking.

- In addition, if you want to refer to older portrayals, you musn't forget these:


Kind regards
Droku

corrosivechains

ITT: "I played Skyrim so I know everything there is to know about orcs"

I've seen similar to this post more than a few times and it's always the same "Orcs r bad ESO, look at my proof from Skyrim!"

then someone inevitably posts these pics:




And the OP just sort of evaporates.

There needs to be a new stickied rule for the forums. "If your only knowledge of Elder Scrolls games is Skyrim, don't post about what Zenimax is getting wrong."

Czirne

I dont think core of "problem" are orcs. Its Mer races in general.
You can notice in elder scrolls games in general Elves has more crude facial features, and orcish features are based on it.
ESO being a mmo, they decided to make elves more "elvish" in general understanding of elves based on popularization of classic fantasy like Lord of the Rings.
This change, whether good or bad, was made in ESO to approache and engage wider spectrum of general population.
Because orc appearence is based on mer appearence, they look less "Merish", as all mers, therefore less crude in general.

Droku

Hello @corrosivechains ,

If you refer your comment to me, please read what I wrote above you. I didn't want to say that Zenimax did something wrong; these are just details which are in my very personal opinion worthy of improvement.

Regards
Droku

dodgehopper_ESO

Czirne wrote: »

I dont think core of "problem" are orcs. Its Mer races in general.
You can notice in elder scrolls games in general Elves has more crude facial features, and orcish features are based on it.
ESO being a mmo, they decided to make elves more "elvish" in general understanding of elves based on popularization classic fatasy like Lord of the Rings.
This change, whehter good or bad, was made to ESO approaches and engage wider spectrum of general population.
Because orc appearence is based on mer appearence, they look less "Merish", as all mers, therefore less crude in general.

That alien quality that Mer use to have has been someone lost in the mmo, I have to agree. Elves in ESO always had a kind of strange and angular forehead reminiscent or perhaps even more notable than what one might have seen in a Romulan on Star Trek. The actual shape of their skull was also more long as well, where human skulls would be more round. I'm not too bothered but it but I have recognized this change.

corrosivechains

Droku wrote: »

Hello @corrosivechains ,

If you refer your comment to me, please read what I wrote above you. I didn't want to say that Zenimax did something wrong; these are just details which are in my very personal opinion worthy of improvement.

Regards
Droku

Droku wrote: »

Blood and power,

With this thread, I would like to talk about a topic which was on my mind since the beginning of Elder Scrolls Online. It’s about the Orcs, my personal favourite race in Elder Scrolls.
In my opinion, the developers of Zenimax have quite an inappropriate portrayal of the Orcs and transferred this also into the game. The Orcs of Elder Scrolls Online correspond hardly to their counterparts in the other Elder Scrolls games and to the corresponding and original lore. Of course, it was Skyrim which is very decisive here, but it is decisive for many things anyway. I will now make some examples to illustrate what I mean.

Droku wrote: »

- I agree that there are several sorts of Orcs and that they differ from region to region in that they have different appearances and I also support that, but I miss the traditional wild Orcs who live in tribes. I find it definitely logic that the Orcs evolved in multiple ways but I think a lot of Orcs in ESO lack a serious reason why they are hated in a lot of places throughout Tamriel because their characteristics don't really seem to differ from the other peoples. I also agree that the Orcs were made more mass compatible like other races but that doesn't mean that I appreciate this.

Title of the thread:

Bring back the true Orcs

That said though I did see you say that English isn't your native language so you may not understand you are using objective words like "true", "original", and "traditional" to describe your subjective thoughts and opinions, but really Skyrim Orcs were none of these things. If that were the case orcs would be an unplayable beast race.

TrueGreenSmoker

ESO is before Morrowind Obilivian and Skyrim so it can be that Orcs changed appearance and armour after time passes. It's in real life too people change clothing after some years look at the 50's 60's 70's 80's 90's and todays clothing lol and that's with armies too outfits change after years. Other then that I don't know what to say.. I'll shut up

UrQuan

Mallepele wrote: »

Khajiit and Argonies also got more and more human in every TES game,

Um, actually here's the evolution of Khajiit over each TES game:

Arena


Daggerfall


Morrowind


Oblivion


Skyrim


ESO


That's definitely not getting more and more human in each game. It's starting out as basically exactly the same as human, then adding tails, then variously adding and taking away different feline characteristics from one game to the next. Of course in the lore it's explained by different breeds of Khajiit, but saying that they got more and more human with each game is completely false.

Riejael

Those that think Orcs in ESO look 'too human' forget that this isn't Warcraft (the franchise), Warhammer, or even Everquest. This is Elder Scrolls.

Orcs or Orismer are Elves. Meaning their culture and civilization goes back further than any humans.

Tabbycat

I think the fact that Khajiit only had beast legs in Morrowind is a far more interesting topic than Orcs.

Raskahn

Orcs may be Mer, but they are also called a cursed folk. Of course, the city Orcs may behave or look more human and may fit in high civilization, but as the lore says, the traditional Orcs now live apart from the cities, are called "barbarous" and known as brutish fighters who could fall into a berserker rage.
There`s no "I want Orcs to be like they are in Warcraft". It`s the lore of Tes itself that describes the Orcs as brutish and barbarous, although they were Mer.

ZiRM

What class goes besty with the Orc race? I want to make one!

Rohamad_Ali

Today's Orc is more sophisticated .

RealLifeRedguard

While I don't agree with ALL of your points (I think ESO orc armor is boring but I don't think it HAS to be crude to fit them) I definitely agree with the essence of what you're saying.

ZOS seems committed to toning down a lot of the races and making everything a bit more "normal". The biggest offenders in my opinion are the altmer and the argonians. Both have become far too tame and normal.

Argonians in particular lack any sort of that sinister nature that was hinted at in Morrowind. I don't want them to be all evil, but I was hoping to see where the stereotypes about argonians being wicked vicious and emotionless come from. I was fine with the "imperialized" argonians in Oblivion and Skyrim, but going to Black Marsh and finding out they're just goody-two-shoes aztec knockoffs was pretty disappointing to me.

Their physiology is interesting but other than that there's just no nuance. 9 times out of 10 they're either victims or insanely OP hist powered demigods who can do whatever the hell they want.

MythicEmperor

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

While I don't agree with ALL of your points (I think ESO orc armor is boring but I don't think it HAS to be crude to fit them) I definitely agree with the essence of what you're saying.

ZOS seems committed to taming down a lot of the races and making everything a bit more "normal". The biggest offenders in my opinion are the altmer and the argonians. Both have become far too tame and normal.

Argonians in particular lack any sort of that sinister nature that was hinted at in Morrowind. I don't want them to be all evil, but I was hoping to see where the stereotypes about argonians being wicked vicious and emotionless come from. I was fine with the "imperialized" argonians in Oblivion and Skyrim, but going to Black Marsh and finding out they're just goody-two-shoes aztec knockoffs was pretty disappointing to me.

Their physiology is interesting but other than that there's just no nuance. 9 times out of 10 they're either victims or insanely OP hist powered demigods who can do whatever the hell they want.

I agree completely, however I find Bosmer to be just as bad as the Altmer in terms of normalization. Compare Kirkbride's old concept art of Bosmer to their appearance in ESO. Yes, it is just art, but even in the final cut of the game, Bosmer had very distinct angles and features.