Bring back the true Orcs

RealLifeRedguard

MythicEmperor wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

While I don't agree with ALL of your points (I think ESO orc armor is boring but I don't think it HAS to be crude to fit them) I definitely agree with the essence of what you're saying.

ZOS seems committed to taming down a lot of the races and making everything a bit more "normal". The biggest offenders in my opinion are the altmer and the argonians. Both have become far too tame and normal.

Argonians in particular lack any sort of that sinister nature that was hinted at in Morrowind. I don't want them to be all evil, but I was hoping to see where the stereotypes about argonians being wicked vicious and emotionless come from. I was fine with the "imperialized" argonians in Oblivion and Skyrim, but going to Black Marsh and finding out they're just goody-two-shoes aztec knockoffs was pretty disappointing to me.

Their physiology is interesting but other than that there's just no nuance. 9 times out of 10 they're either victims or insanely OP hist powered demigods who can do whatever the hell they want.

I agree completely, however I find Bosmer to be just as bad as the Altmer in terms of normalization. Compare Kirkbride's old concept art of Bosmer to their appearance in ESO. Yes, it is just art, but even in the final cut of the game, Bosmer had very distinct angles and features.

You're totally right and I agree completely, but I'm trying to focus on what ESO specifically toned down. We'd be here all day if we decided to talk about the normalization of the lore from Redguard/Morrowind all the way to Skyrim.

If anything I'd say ESO improved upon the wood elves from what we saw in Skyrim and Oblivion, but I would have liked to see the more fairy-like females and more impish, spirit-like males.

But back to Argonians...I can't be the only one who finds them to be Mary Sues right? Ever since Infernal City they're always either the victims who've done nothing wrong or invincible badasses. It's the worst of both worlds with no nuance in between. Skyrim had some villainous argonians, but ESO really seems to have gone off the deep end with them.

Enslaved

BTW, Orsimer folk were seen as animals in 1st and 2nd era, so any lore friendliness of DC stops there.

RealLifeRedguard

Enslaved wrote: »

BTW, Orsimer folk were seen as animals in 1st and 2nd era, so any lore friendliness of DC stops there.

I could accept the way ESO handled this if they acknowledged the context at all. Sure we can just assume that the bretons and redguards were completely racist and irredeemable, and that they were so cruel to the orsimer for no reason, but is that in any way interesting or nuanced? Are we really to believe that the orcs were ONLY misunderstood and they really were always this civilized? It's just poor worldbuilding and even worse writing.

Ghettokid

Let me tell you few words about orcs.



Orc, orsimer

Sovaso

Who cares about this ugly orcs?

Enslaved

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

BTW, Orsimer folk were seen as animals in 1st and 2nd era, so any lore friendliness of DC stops there.

I could accept the way ESO handled this if they acknowledged the context at all. Sure we can just assume that the bretons and redguards were completely racist and irredeemable, and that they were so cruel to the orsimer for no reason, but is that in any way interesting or nuanced? Are we really to believe that the orcs ONLY misunderstood and they really were always this civilized? It's just poor worldbuilding and even worse writing.

Its not about being civilised, its about being rival. At least, EP alliance has somewhat explained how Saxhleel went from just a plain slaves to proud members of alliance, no matter how unlikely the story is. But on the other hand, we have zero believable reason for Orsimer to be treated as equals in this era, and that just strengthens my thoughts about how poor was the design of DC.

RealLifeRedguard

Enslaved wrote: »

BTW, Orsimer folk were seen as animals in 1st and 2nd era, so any lore friendliness of DC stops there.

I could accept the way ESO handled this better if they acknowledge it at all. Sure we can just assume that the bretons and redguards were completely racist and irredeemable to have been so cruel to the orsimer in the past, but is that in any way interesting or nuanced? Are we really to believe that the orcs ONLY misunderstood and they really were always this civilized? It's just poor worldbuilding and even worse writing.

Enslaved wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

BTW, Orsimer folk were seen as animals in 1st and 2nd era, so any lore friendliness of DC stops there.

I could accept the way ESO handled this if they acknowledged the context at all. Sure we can just assume that the bretons and redguards were completely racist and irredeemable, and that they were so cruel to the orsimer for no reason, but is that in any way interesting or nuanced? Are we really to believe that the orcs ONLY misunderstood and they really were always this civilized? It's just poor worldbuilding and even worse writing.

Its not about being civilised, its about being rival. At least, EP alliance has somewhat explained how Saxhleel went from just a plain slaves to proud members of alliance, no matter how unlikely the story is. But on the other hand, we have zero believable reason for Orsimer to be treated as equals in this era, and that just strengthens my thoughts about how poor was the design of DC.

It's more than that though, orcs were seen as literal monsters until the time of Morrowind. And yet in ESO we have no indication of where this stereotype even came from. The orcs are just normal people.

Darkonflare15

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

While I don't agree with ALL of your points (I think ESO orc armor is boring but I don't think it HAS to be crude to fit them) I definitely agree with the essence of what you're saying.

ZOS seems committed to taming down a lot of the races and making everything a bit more "normal". The biggest offenders in my opinion are the altmer and the argonians. Both have become far too tame and normal.

Argonians in particular lack any sort of that sinister nature that was hinted at in Morrowind. I don't want them to be all evil, but I was hoping to see where the stereotypes about argonians being wicked vicious and emotionless come from. I was fine with the "imperialized" argonians in Oblivion and Skyrim, but going to Black Marsh and finding out they're just goody-two-shoes aztec knockoffs was pretty disappointing to me.

Their physiology is interesting but other than that there's just no nuance. 9 times out of 10 they're either victims or insanely OP hist powered demigods who can do whatever the hell they want.

I agree completely, however I find Bosmer to be just as bad as the Altmer in terms of normalization. Compare Kirkbride's old concept art of Bosmer to their appearance in ESO. Yes, it is just art, but even in the final cut of the game, Bosmer had very distinct angles and features.

You're totally right and I agree completely, but I'm trying to focus on what ESO specifically toned down. We'd be here all day if we decided to talk about the normalization of the lore from Redguard/Morrowind all the way to Skyrim.

If anything I'd say ESO improved upon the wood elves from what we saw in Skyrim and Oblivion, but I would have liked to see the more fairy-like females and more impish, spirit-like males.

But back to Argonians...I can't be the only one who finds them to be Mary Sues right? Ever since Infernal City they're always either the victims who've done nothing wrong or invincible badasses. It's the worst of both worlds with no nuance in between. Skyrim had some villainous argonians, but ESO really seems to have gone off the deep end with them.

What are you talking about? Argonians are not villianous. They are just missunderstood because of their looks but their are plenty of villianous Argonians in the game. There no point in having a race fit some sterotype all the time like how it was in Morrowind. I like the variety of the races with different personalities in this game. Like Khajiiti who was raise by orcs so that he talk differently from other Khajiits. Makes the game interesting not sterotypical.

SnubbS

I wish you could make the Cheekbones/Jawlines of female characters as prominent in eso as you can in skyrim. Those female orc models look way better imo.

RealLifeRedguard

Enslaved wrote: »

What are you talking about? Argonians are not villianous. They are just missunderstood because of their looks but their are plenty of villianous Argonians in the game. There no point in having a race fit some sterotype all the time like how it was in Morrowind. I like the variety of the races with different personalities in this game. Like Khajiiti who was raise by orcs so that he talk differently from other Khajiits. Makes the game interesting not sterotypical.

You clearly didn't read any part of my post except the word "villainous".

What I'm saying is argonians have become boring to me. In the past they were implied to have at least the perception of a sinister culture and maybe some behaviors that didn't fit with the moral compass of men or mer. They supposedly had an alien psychology that set them apart from everyone else in the world. In Morrowind argonians themselves reference blood magic and other races regard them as wicked and evil. Oblivion states that argonians do not typically show emotion like men or mer do, which causes other races to believe they have no empathy. I didn't want all argonians to be villainous. I wanted to see some gray area in their culture and to see at least a hint at a darker side. I wanted to see something like the blackwood company in Oblivion, where we learn that argonian culture and their relationship to the Hist may have a much darker side that doesn't mesh well with our own morality.

I don't want them to follow a stereotype. What I wanted was for there to be some more nuance to their culture. Ever since Infernal City had the argonians literally invading Oblivion gates like unstoppable badasses, argonians have become the Special Snowflake / Mary Sue race. With few exceptions they're always either the victims and underdogs we should feel sorry for or root for, or they're unstoppable badasses who can do anything Bethesda/Zenimax wants them to do because of the Hist. So they've taken two overused tropes (the underdog and the cool badass) and combined them. It's just poor writing.

There's a balance to be found between making every race completely bound to their archetype and making every race generic, middle of the road, and too similar to one another.

phairdon

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Today's Orc is more sophisticated .

For some reason or another, that picture reminds me of a streamer....

psychotrip

Like others have already said, the ES games have been toning the races down for a while. Orcs were only really portrayed as having crude arms and armor in Skyrim, but other than that the OP is 100% correct. The thing I don't think ESO gets is that in previous games we've mostly been seeing "imperialized" versions of each race until we go to their respective province. Dunmer in oblivion act way different from dunmer in Morrowind. Argonians are far more civilized in Cyrodiil than they are in Black Marsh. ESO doesn't seem to realize this, or they just don't care, but either way they haven't taken the time to flesh out how some of these races are on their own, and their interpretations often conflict with pre-existing lore.

MythicEmperor

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

What are you talking about? Argonians are not villianous. They are just missunderstood because of their looks but their are plenty of villianous Argonians in the game. There no point in having a race fit some sterotype all the time like how it was in Morrowind. I like the variety of the races with different personalities in this game. Like Khajiiti who was raise by orcs so that he talk differently from other Khajiits. Makes the game interesting not sterotypical.

You clearly didn't read any part of my post except the word "villainous".

What I'm saying is argonians have become boring to me. In the past they were implied to have at least the perception of a sinister culture and maybe some behaviors that didn't fit with the moral compass of men or mer. They supposedly had an alien psychology that set them apart from everyone else in the world. In Morrowind argonians themselves reference blood magic and other races regard them as wicked and evil. Oblivion states that argonians do not typically show emotion like men or mer do, which causes other races to believe they have no empathy. I didn't want all argonians to be villainous. I wanted to see some gray area in their culture and to see at least a hint at a darker side. I wanted to see something like the blackwood company in Oblivion, where we learn that argonian culture and their relationship to the Hist may have a much darker side that doesn't mesh well with our own morality.

I don't want them to follow a stereotype. What I wanted was for there to be some more nuance to their culture. Ever since Infernal City had the argonians literally invading Oblivion gates like unstoppable badasses, argonians have become the Special Snowflake / Mary Sue race. With few exceptions they're always either the victims and underdogs we should feel sorry for or root for, or they're unstoppable badasses who can do anything Bethesda/Zenimax wants them to do because of the Hist. So they've taken two overused tropes (the underdog and the cool badass) and combined them. It's just poor writing.

There's a balance to be found between making every race completely bound to their archetype and making every race generic, middle of the road, and too similar to one another.

I have three theories regarding the matter.

1. The Argonians simply don't want the Pact to be aware of their shadier practices, which they perform in secret

2. These darker traits only show themselves in the deeper and more hostile regions of Black Marsh, which we haven't seen (Except in Arena, of course)

3. Lazy game design

Faulgor

Enslaved wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

BTW, Orsimer folk were seen as animals in 1st and 2nd era, so any lore friendliness of DC stops there.

I could accept the way ESO handled this if they acknowledged the context at all. Sure we can just assume that the bretons and redguards were completely racist and irredeemable, and that they were so cruel to the orsimer for no reason, but is that in any way interesting or nuanced? Are we really to believe that the orcs ONLY misunderstood and they really were always this civilized? It's just poor worldbuilding and even worse writing.

Its not about being civilised, its about being rival. At least, EP alliance has somewhat explained how Saxhleel went from just a plain slaves to proud members of alliance, no matter how unlikely the story is. But on the other hand, we have zero believable reason for Orsimer to be treated as equals in this era, and that just strengthens my thoughts about how poor was the design of DC.

Orsinium was recognized as an Imperial province under the Akaviri Potentate about ~200 years before ESO. Their social standing has waxed and waned throughout the centuries.
The alliance between Emeric and Kurog is absolutely in line with that, not any less believable than the Dunmer dropping slavery to form a pact with what they consider animals.

MythicEmperor

Faulgor wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

BTW, Orsimer folk were seen as animals in 1st and 2nd era, so any lore friendliness of DC stops there.

I could accept the way ESO handled this if they acknowledged the context at all. Sure we can just assume that the bretons and redguards were completely racist and irredeemable, and that they were so cruel to the orsimer for no reason, but is that in any way interesting or nuanced? Are we really to believe that the orcs ONLY misunderstood and they really were always this civilized? It's just poor worldbuilding and even worse writing.

Its not about being civilised, its about being rival. At least, EP alliance has somewhat explained how Saxhleel went from just a plain slaves to proud members of alliance, no matter how unlikely the story is. But on the other hand, we have zero believable reason for Orsimer to be treated as equals in this era, and that just strengthens my thoughts about how poor was the design of DC.

Orsinium was recognized as an Imperial province under the Akaviri Potentate about ~200 years before ESO. Their social standing has waxed and waned throughout the centuries.
The alliance between Emeric and Kurog is absolutely in line with that, not any less believable than the Dunmer dropping slavery to form a pact with what they consider animals.

Us Telvanni are far better than the lesser houses who joined that wretched "Pact". I will not give up Mr. Scaley for this "equality", Dumac take it.

RealLifeRedguard

Faulgor wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

BTW, Orsimer folk were seen as animals in 1st and 2nd era, so any lore friendliness of DC stops there.

I could accept the way ESO handled this if they acknowledged the context at all. Sure we can just assume that the bretons and redguards were completely racist and irredeemable, and that they were so cruel to the orsimer for no reason, but is that in any way interesting or nuanced? Are we really to believe that the orcs ONLY misunderstood and they really were always this civilized? It's just poor worldbuilding and even worse writing.

Its not about being civilised, its about being rival. At least, EP alliance has somewhat explained how Saxhleel went from just a plain slaves to proud members of alliance, no matter how unlikely the story is. But on the other hand, we have zero believable reason for Orsimer to be treated as equals in this era, and that just strengthens my thoughts about how poor was the design of DC.

Orsinium was recognized as an Imperial province under the Akaviri Potentate about ~200 years before ESO. Their social standing has waxed and waned throughout the centuries.
The alliance between Emeric and Kurog is absolutely in line with that, not any less believable than the Dunmer dropping slavery to form a pact with what they consider animals.

...Yeah honestly I would say neither of those things make much sense but at least the Pact was forced together to fight off the akaviri.

Enslaved

Faulgor wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

BTW, Orsimer folk were seen as animals in 1st and 2nd era, so any lore friendliness of DC stops there.

I could accept the way ESO handled this if they acknowledged the context at all. Sure we can just assume that the bretons and redguards were completely racist and irredeemable, and that they were so cruel to the orsimer for no reason, but is that in any way interesting or nuanced? Are we really to believe that the orcs ONLY misunderstood and they really were always this civilized? It's just poor worldbuilding and even worse writing.

Its not about being civilised, its about being rival. At least, EP alliance has somewhat explained how Saxhleel went from just a plain slaves to proud members of alliance, no matter how unlikely the story is. But on the other hand, we have zero believable reason for Orsimer to be treated as equals in this era, and that just strengthens my thoughts about how poor was the design of DC.

Orsinium was recognized as an Imperial province under the Akaviri Potentate about ~200 years before ESO. Their social standing has waxed and waned throughout the centuries.
The alliance between Emeric and Kurog is absolutely in line with that, not any less believable than the Dunmer dropping slavery to form a pact with what they consider animals.

The Interregnum was a period in Tamriel's history between the end of the Second Empire and the proclamation of the Third Empire by Tiber Septim. It began when the last of the Akaviri Potentates, Savirien-Chorak, and all of his heirs were murdered by the Dark Brotherhood in 2E 430.[1] The collapse of central authority led to five centuries of bickering between racial alliances, small kingdoms, and petty states.[2] During this time, the Empire of Cyrodiil existed by name only, and was confined to the region of Cyrodiil alone.

Wrothgar is best known for being home to the Orcish capital of Orsinium. It was razed by Daggerfall, Sentinel and the Order of Diagna in 1E 980, and at the time of the Akaviri Potentate, it briefly became an Imperial territory.[4][5] At some point, Wrothgar got under the control of the first Daggerfall Covenant. When King Ranser of Shornhelm attacked Wayrest in 2E 566, King Emeric of Wayrest sent emissaries into Wrothgar and promised to return Orsinium to the Orcs in exchange for helping him defeat Ranser. The clan of Kurog gro-Bagrakh answered his call and helped annihilate Ranser's forces at Markwasten Moor. After these events, Kurog was given control over Wrothgar, and his new Orsinium joined the second Daggerfall Covenant.

Both of these are from UESP wiki. What I want to show is that Orsinium was not an Imperial province, but Wrothgar was. And in that days, it was about 50% -50% populated by Bretons and Orsimer. So, it was not an Orsimer integration in the Empire, more like the entire territory. Orsimer folk were still seen as wild animals. By this lore, Orsimer were integrated later, when they helped Emeric defeat Ranser. Still, TES history teaches us that Orsinium was once again destroyed and that Orsimer were once again seen as nothing but wild animals, until sometime in 3rd era.

I think Zos didn't do too good job with lore friendliness of ESO, and that is just lazy if you ask me. For example, I like the fact that great house Telavnni didn't join the Pact, I can understand their reasons, but we needed similar things to be done with Saxhleel people. Saxhleel don't act as former slaves would do, they are too much peaceful toward their former enslavers. On the other hand, Dunmer have a lot of ppl who don't see Saxhleel as anything more than slaves, and that part of the questing was done pretty good.

I am disappointed that similar, believable relations were not integrated enough in DC interracial management, since that would make the areas populated by DC much more believable. When you see how much work went into beautiful zones, voice acting and stuff, you can only be sad that lore had to be broken because someone was too lazy to do better job there.

FENGRUSH

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Today's Orc is more sophisticated .

Awesome

RealLifeRedguard

Enslaved wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

BTW, Orsimer folk were seen as animals in 1st and 2nd era, so any lore friendliness of DC stops there.

I could accept the way ESO handled this if they acknowledged the context at all. Sure we can just assume that the bretons and redguards were completely racist and irredeemable, and that they were so cruel to the orsimer for no reason, but is that in any way interesting or nuanced? Are we really to believe that the orcs ONLY misunderstood and they really were always this civilized? It's just poor worldbuilding and even worse writing.

Its not about being civilised, its about being rival. At least, EP alliance has somewhat explained how Saxhleel went from just a plain slaves to proud members of alliance, no matter how unlikely the story is. But on the other hand, we have zero believable reason for Orsimer to be treated as equals in this era, and that just strengthens my thoughts about how poor was the design of DC.

Orsinium was recognized as an Imperial province under the Akaviri Potentate about ~200 years before ESO. Their social standing has waxed and waned throughout the centuries.
The alliance between Emeric and Kurog is absolutely in line with that, not any less believable than the Dunmer dropping slavery to form a pact with what they consider animals.

The Interregnum was a period in Tamriel's history between the end of the Second Empire and the proclamation of the Third Empire by Tiber Septim. It began when the last of the Akaviri Potentates, Savirien-Chorak, and all of his heirs were murdered by the Dark Brotherhood in 2E 430.[1] The collapse of central authority led to five centuries of bickering between racial alliances, small kingdoms, and petty states.[2] During this time, the Empire of Cyrodiil existed by name only, and was confined to the region of Cyrodiil alone.

Wrothgar is best known for being home to the Orcish capital of Orsinium. It was razed by Daggerfall, Sentinel and the Order of Diagna in 1E 980, and at the time of the Akaviri Potentate, it briefly became an Imperial territory.[4][5] At some point, Wrothgar got under the control of the first Daggerfall Covenant. When King Ranser of Shornhelm attacked Wayrest in 2E 566, King Emeric of Wayrest sent emissaries into Wrothgar and promised to return Orsinium to the Orcs in exchange for helping him defeat Ranser. The clan of Kurog gro-Bagrakh answered his call and helped annihilate Ranser's forces at Markwasten Moor. After these events, Kurog was given control over Wrothgar, and his new Orsinium joined the second Daggerfall Covenant.

Both of these are from UESP wiki. What I want to show is that Orsinium was not an Imperial province, but Wrothgar was. And in that days, it was about 50% -50% populated by Bretons and Orsimer. So, it was not an Orsimer integration in the Empire, more like the entire territory. Orsimer folk were still seen as wild animals. By this lore, Orsimer were integrated later, when they helped Emeric defeat Ranser. Still, TES history teaches us that Orsinium was once again destroyed and that Orsimer were once again seen as nothing but wild animals, until sometime in 3rd era.

I think Zos didn't do too good job with lore friendliness of ESO, and that is just lazy if you ask me. For example, I like the fact that great house Telavnni didn't join the Pact, I can understand their reasons, but we needed similar things to be done with Saxhleel people. Saxhleel don't act as former slaves would do, they are too much peaceful toward their former enslavers. On the other hand, Dunmer have a lot of ppl who don't see Saxhleel as anything more than slaves, and that part of the questing was done pretty good.

I am disappointed that similar, believable relations were not integrated enough in DC interracial management, since that would make the areas populated by DC much more believable. When you see how much work went into beautiful zones, voice acting and stuff, you can only be sad that lore had to be broken because someone was too lazy to do better job there.

Agreed, especially on the argonians. It's just not interesting the way they're portrayed. There's no edge to them at all, especially considering their relationship with the dunmer. Regardless of how believable this relationship is, above all else it's just boring and a wasted opportunity for compelling conflict. On the whole, argonians have just become the Mary-Sue race. They're sympathetic victims when the writers want them to be, and hist-powered badasses when the writers want them to be. It's just poor writing and worldbuilding. I was hoping to see more of their supposed alien psychology and I wanted to witness how their native culture conflicted with the moral compass of our own. But the vast majority of argonian characters are just too normal for me, and lack any sort of 3 dimensional nuance.

hmsdragonfly

Enslaved wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

BTW, Orsimer folk were seen as animals in 1st and 2nd era, so any lore friendliness of DC stops there.

I could accept the way ESO handled this if they acknowledged the context at all. Sure we can just assume that the bretons and redguards were completely racist and irredeemable, and that they were so cruel to the orsimer for no reason, but is that in any way interesting or nuanced? Are we really to believe that the orcs ONLY misunderstood and they really were always this civilized? It's just poor worldbuilding and even worse writing.

Its not about being civilised, its about being rival. At least, EP alliance has somewhat explained how Saxhleel went from just a plain slaves to proud members of alliance, no matter how unlikely the story is. But on the other hand, we have zero believable reason for Orsimer to be treated as equals in this era, and that just strengthens my thoughts about how poor was the design of DC.

And Orcs are not treated equally in the game, you see, there are Orc defectors to the Dominion, and Orsinium DLC is like "there will be no Breton or Redguard armies in Orsinium, ever!", DC is the most fragile alliance, no one trusts anyone lol, it is the first one going to fail.

Cadbury

Playing as an Orc, I sorta like the fact no one likes or trusts us. It makes me feel closer to ny brothers and sisters whenever I meet them ingame. Unity through solidarity and all that.

Off topic, but I noticed some call an Orc stamina sorcerer a "Sorc". Does this work for other classes, like is an Orc Templar a "Torc"? Or an Orc DK a "Dorc"?

I liked the Orc armor in Morrowind personally. Too bad it was medium only.

Raskahn

The past has shown, that the developers are willing to change things in Eso when the major opinion of the community really wants it and can bring up some good reasons. For example, the armor of female Orcs was at first nothing but a sign where to put your sword in, because of the hole in the cuirass.That also included logic, of course. I mean, what the hell.

I think, If we really would try to let them change something with the appearance of the Orcs or, like many mentioned now, the behaviour of the Argonians, they will think about it. Of course, they can`t change completely the characters and all the designes they made, but little by little they should be able to improve this game more and more.
I also think, that`s a pity that this game was made with much effort for the landscapes and graphics, while I don`t get why the cultures and folks are sometimes not authentic and don`t remind me of what I once got to know from the other games.
But also the developers are just human and to do their job right, they may need a little help.
It would be great, If we could manage it to bring those ideas to their minds so that they can create scary and mystic Argonians and brutish Orcs, like they should be in their traditional way and not only in the imperialized one. And I really would prefer bigger fangs and bone sticks at the eyebrows and when it should just be sold in the shop.

So KEEP going discussing o/

Enslaved

Cadbury wrote: »

Playing as an Orc, I sorta like the fact no one likes or trusts us. It makes me feel closer to ny brothers and sisters whenever I meet them ingame. Unity through solidarity and all that.

Off topic, but I noticed some call an Orc stamina sorcerer a "Sorc". Does this work for other classes, like is an Orc Templar a "Torc"? Or an Orc DK a "Dorc"?

I liked the Orc armor in Morrowind personally. Too bad it was medium only.

No, its wrong. Sorc = Sorsimer. DK = Dorsimer. NB = Norsimer. And templar = bullshiet, as any other templar, no matter race.

adriant1978

Cadbury wrote: »

Off topic, but I noticed some call an Orc stamina sorcerer a "Sorc". Does this work for other classes, like is an Orc Templar a "Torc"? Or an Orc DK a "Dorc"?

This has nothing to do with the character's race; "Sorc" is just short for "Sorcerer". You will also see "StamSorc" and "MagSorc" depending on whether they are a stamina or magicka build.

Sausage

Kendo12 wrote: »

Yes please...I hate how Orcs look in this game, too human

Everything looks too human. Also we all have a body of a teenager. Really think they should look into it. Especially the body types just devalues the IP, ESO is supposed to be that old wine you dont wan to drink but atm it looks like warm diluted cider for teens.

Ajaxandriel

Droku wrote: »

- Elfs turned into Orcs a very long time ago and transformed suddenly instead of evolving over a long period. Their god transformed over a short time as well and gave them after his return a completely new lifestyle.

I think you mix up established in-universe lore and infallible "omniscient" lore there.
Like, I prefer to think that orcs evolved over a long period - and you can not prove me I'm wrong, just like I can't prove you that I see the (fictional) truth either. Because mythos are made of this, more or less convincing explanations, and Faith.

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

BTW, Orsimer folk were seen as animals in 1st and 2nd era, so any lore friendliness of DC stops there.

I could accept the way ESO handled this if they acknowledged the context at all. Sure we can just assume that the bretons and redguards were completely racist and irredeemable, and that they were so cruel to the orsimer for no reason, but is that in any way interesting or nuanced? Are we really to believe that the orcs were ONLY misunderstood and they really were always this civilized? It's just poor worldbuilding and even worse writing.

I won't say it is a matter of good or bad writing. Indeed the fans did make their own vision about the game lore. But if we are talking about general logic - or a kind of realism TES could tend to - then you should consider IRL history, European peoples killing each other for some times and befriending for some other times. French and Germans seeing each other as beasts just 100 years ago, even though we are the same species, and now we're allied. (If you're an American, then let's take the example of how the Japanese were depicted during WWII - and so on, anywhere at any time.) Then let's imagine what could happen in a world with at least two species like mer and men.

I'd say the same thing on the complains about the "illogic behavior" of argonians supporting the dunmer, right after having been their slaves. If we admit this, how could we figure out black people supporting the USA right along the XXth century ? hehe

That said, I totally agree when you explain how the game plot and geopolitics lack more nuanced cases like the Telvanni. (I like to roleplay non-alliance-aligned characters and guild, so I share this point of view.)

The original storyline displays few complex situations. Everything seems linear. The Veiled Heritance is bad because they are bad racists, and by chance, bad daedric cultists in the end. The bad bosmer are bad because they aligned themselves with bad wood orcs and bad Daedric Prince - and the peaceful ones that made their way apart from the AD just burnt in The City of Ash...

Indeed the fantasy of many races have been dramatically toned down.

The Redguard plot was one of my disappointments (at first - then TG did add some atmosphere, even if it still lacks an "african" flavour). The worst imo were the Altmer... I saw just no fantasy there. Well, at least the landscape was cool.

But unlike the OP I am fine with the Orcs in ESO. I found them one of the most interesting races to be honest. The amazing mash-up of classical elven, ork-ish and dwarven features... and their homes having a real "atmosphere". Just my feeling.

Cadbury

adriant1978 wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

Off topic, but I noticed some call an Orc stamina sorcerer a "Sorc". Does this work for other classes, like is an Orc Templar a "Torc"? Or an Orc DK a "Dorc"?

This has nothing to do with the character's race; "Sorc" is just short for "Sorcerer". You will also see "StamSorc" and "MagSorc" depending on whether they are a stamina or magicka build.

-whoosh-

Sneaky-Snurr

UrQuan wrote: »

Oblivion

@UrQuan
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHA oh gosh This particular appearance from Oblivion really cracks me up all the time! They look.. unique (stupid in all honesty)...
In contrast, Skyrim Khajiits are the best-looking I think.

Cadbury

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Oblivion

@UrQuan
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHA oh gosh This particular appearance from Oblivion really cracks me up all the time! They look.. unique (stupid in all honesty)...
In contrast, Skyrim Khajiits are the best-looking I think.

The voice acting for the beast races in Oblivion was pretty....interesting, too.

Plus, they waddled in Morrowind. Waddled.

Enslaved

In oblivion, every race looked and almost every race sounded ... terrible (won't use word I intended because disabled persons might find it offending).