Please give DKs back our Flames of Oblivion (AoE)

MaxwellC

@Carbonised
I'm trying man I even attempted to bribe @ZOS_RichLambert with beer (not kidding I will ship it if he gives me an address lol). I just want someone from zos to see this and say "Let's give it a try". Maybe @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or @ZOS_GinaBruno can tell us if this post has been in any shape noticeable then that would be great to know. I'd also like to know if they would change it too.

Sugaroverdose

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Sugaroverdose
I'd love to know how this is 'too good for mindless zergs' that statement is incredibly confusing. There's already an ability out there called 'hurricane' yet I do not see zergs all running it so do elaborate on what you meant by that.

@Zakor
Yeah if the heal is 1k capped then that's fine alongside it's burst fireball heal but it healing you as you noticed all depends on dragon's blood being fixed.

Destro ult+proxydet+flames of oblivion=train of death

Hurricane is bad for train cause of stamina does not give a lot of options to deal AoE, magicka has

MaxwellC

@Sugaroverdose
Ok so that's a assumption right there. I was hoping you would provide something with data but never mind. First and foremost there are plenty of counters to that and on top of that it's not like you can't kill a Mag DK spec'd in full damage gear as the tank one wouldn't do as much damage for it to be considered a threat (I know because I used eye of the storm in 5 heavy n it's not good).
Lastly it's nowhere near worse than a Mag blade popping destro with proxy into sap essence since they literally take a bit to kill. If you're in a zerg and you get wiped by the ultimate well its you and your zergs fault for letting it happen since you can negate it, mitigate it, and even root to escape it.

Sugaroverdose

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Sugaroverdose
Ok so that's a assumption right there. I was hoping you would provide something with data but never mind. First and foremost there are plenty of counters to that and on top of that it's not like you can't kill a Mag DK spec'd in full damage gear as the tank one wouldn't do as much damage for it to be considered a threat (I know because I used eye of the storm in 5 heavy n it's not good).
Lastly it's nowhere near worse than a Mag blade popping destro with proxy into sap essence since they literally take a bit to kill. If you're in a zerg and you get wiped by the ultimate well its you and your zergs fault for letting it happen since you can negate it, mitigate it, and even root to escape it.

Who said you that heavy cannot deal a lot of damage with Eye Of Storm when even stamina uses it in some cases? Get Burning Spellwave, proc it, profit, you have huge spell damage without running LA.

Nightblade popping with proxy into sap is bombing, while i am talking about trains of players who enable coupe of abilities and just burn everything on their path.

MaxwellC

@Sugaroverdose
The main threat of eye of the storm isn't based on spell power but rather the penetration the player has when using it. I've been on Sejanus bridge/outpost quite a bit as a DC farming AP so yeah a heavy can't do as much damage sorry mate. If you want I mean I can probably get a clip for you in a few hours depending on how DC is doing right now in Haderus or scourge but this is all from experience.
I hope you're not saying a stamina class rocks eye of the storm because man that's funny and definitely wouldn't do anything unless you mean a stamina based character like the one Feng ran when he was emp.
Regardless this ability needs to happen, Flames of Oblivion is a skill that was taken from us a while back and all we want is to have it back. If you can't provide any real evidence other than a ultimate will somehow change the outcome of if this ability gets added or not then please refrain.

I want real information not assumptions mate, I'm all about compromise but you gotta provide something concrete rather than assuming that a zerg will magically all run Mag DK (the slowest variant in the game) and magically do everything without being countered in any shape.

Draxys

MaxwellC wrote: »

@sebban
Have you used the old version of Flames of Oblivion because man it was insane
Do note this was before combat was updated so the values seem low but base it on porpotion with the health the enemies have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6aHgR4n1CI

Omg, the real ESO

Sugaroverdose

HA mDK tava+burning spellwave:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Olt1DGYcHQ
4k per tick, is it small? Add ~1.5k which may deal flames of oblivion and you have 5.5k of every second damage which ignores global cooldown and does not require you to do anything, lets multiply it by 5 and you get 27.5k damage from 5 mDK train which just run aside of you

FYI: i'm maining on mDK and all i what want now, that zos stop touching it and what i definitely don't want is seeing them as main zerg population

MaxwellC

@Sugaroverdose
That entire clip you hit or whoever hit 4.3k once and it's hard to determine if it was from the whip or ultimate or grotharr after that it's hard to tell if grotharr was doing the damage or the ultimate but you were hitting on average just about 3k damage so I'm not sure where you get 4k every tick from. I haven't done group play PvP in a long time since I'm strictly solo but I'm quite sure your allies damage values appear on the screen so you gotta also account for the cold harbor ballista/oil at the end which did help you stay alive a bit longer.

All in all no one CC'd you on top of that do remember that proc sets will not crit anymore come this patch so your values with grotharr will drop considerably since I believe you're running the thief mundus. No one attempted to counter you that entire fight until towards the end when you were finally focused on and killed immediately.

Sugaroverdose

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Sugaroverdose
That entire clip you hit or whoever hit 4.3k once and it's hard to determine if it was from the whip or ultimate or grotharr after that it's hard to tell if grotharr was doing the damage or the ultimate but you were hitting on average just about 3k damage so I'm not sure where you get 4k every tick from. I haven't done group play PvP in a long time since I'm strictly solo but I'm quite sure your allies damage values appear on the screen so you gotta also account for the cold harbor ballista/oil at the end which did help you stay alive a bit longer.

All in all no one CC'd you on top of that do remember that proc sets will not crit anymore come this patch so your values with grotharr will drop considerably since I believe you're running the thief mundus. No one attempted to counter you that entire fight until towards the end when you were finally focused on and killed immediately.

1. It's not my vid, it's rotation test of broken stuff made by mate
2. 4k is Eye
3. I've asked you just to make math, and use imagination to understand that flames of oblivion in state of damaging buff will make mDK preferred by zergs not without reason, while solo mDK will not get a lot of it.

MaxwellC

@Sugaroverdose
You didn't ask me to make math or imagine anything but rather you made an example where the battle flows entirely in the favor of the offensive while the defensive in your view point runs with their heads chopped off. I should also mention in that video lol there was one healer the stam DK spamming vigor smh. If you're gonna make a point then do so with actually having the favorable and unfavorable in account, people act like eye of the storm is the end of all things in PvP when I've literally helped counter it plenty of times on my stam DK by using fossilize; they break free and roll dodge to continue for 1 or 2 seconds while the group already moved back enough. There are times where someone throws mitigations down and then it's a done deal you just stand there with heals going and end them.

Solo mDK does get a lot out of it by the way it plays now, first of all you get most of your damage from whips/whip procs which require you to be on top of the enemy. You mean to tell me an AoE that is consistent isn't going to be useful for a solo mDk especially when it comes to enemies who are in stealth?
Let me also add especially when I'm trying to push for increased DoT damage (DK specific) something that Mag Dks rely on more then us stam DKs?

Sugaroverdose

He get hard CC'ed a in vid multiple times which didn't actually stop damage what makes eye of storm (first reason to not make damaging buff)
Solo doesn't get a lot just because of it requires dropping something, which in result means lost of counters(for solo it's not an option) or useful debuff like engulfing flames(10% damage boost)/entropy(increases health pool, gives major sorcery), while trains will love it cause trains have Nx10 slots instead of just 10

MaxwellC

@Sugaroverdose
In a vid well where? I don't see him in a vid other than the one above shoving him get hard cc'd once. I do not see him on Sejanus bridge at-least a video of him there running eye of the storm and mowing down groups. You're suggesting that this one ability will be a game changer when even now you can test it with grotharr as it lasts almost as long as eye of the storm when it procs and most likely will proc at the 2 second margin based on targets hit.

So your reasoning for it not being useful for mDK solo is the fact that they would drop something to use this ability but why? Is it because this ability is far more useful than others because that's the only way they would be willing to drop it to use it which it seems you're sure implying if so then case closed.
You keep cherry picking like "oh this Flames of Oblivion AoE is so good, let me drop my buff for it" like what lol. You can drop plenty of things for it that doesn't directly effect you as much. I mean mate you've got 10 slots I can easily throw off dragon fire scales or igneous shield in order to use this ability without it effecting me terribly. Then again that's just my play-style as a Mag DK.

Addition: Judging by how much stamina he lost from that break free I seriously doubt he has anywhere near 12% in break free reduction costs. He popped shuffle instead of waiting for the CC which was a big mistake since anyone could see that coming especially when they cloaked immediately (typical NB stuff).

Sugaroverdose

Reread my statement, implementing magicka AoE abilities which bypass GC is a bad idea - in current game state it may result in trains with it, closest primer - proxyzergs before DB.

pieratsos

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

He get hard CC'ed a in vid multiple times which didn't actually stop damage what makes eye of storm (first reason to not make damaging buff)
Solo doesn't get a lot just because of it requires dropping something, which in result means lost of counters(for solo it's not an option) or useful debuff like engulfing flames(10% damage boost)/entropy(increases health pool, gives major sorcery), while trains will love it cause trains have Nx10 slots instead of just 10

So you are saying Eots is OP so dont buff other abilities?

Sugaroverdose

pieratsos wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

He get hard CC'ed a in vid multiple times which didn't actually stop damage what makes eye of storm (first reason to not make damaging buff)
Solo doesn't get a lot just because of it requires dropping something, which in result means lost of counters(for solo it's not an option) or useful debuff like engulfing flames(10% damage boost)/entropy(increases health pool, gives major sorcery), while trains will love it cause trains have Nx10 slots instead of just 10

So you are saying Eots is OP so dont buff other abilities?

There wasn't anything about how OP Eots, it's how self-targeted AoE dots working

Zakor

So you are worried about trains? That's funny since trains will always find a way to do things like that. Just imagine a train of 20 mDKs using the current inferno. While it does low damage per hit and hits random it could be devastating also if 5 or more of them hit you the same time! We should clearly remove everything a train could use in this way from the game....hell lets get rid of ALL abilities...

BTT:
The current inferno is a bad joke. The old inferno works the way the dk was designed and was given to the sorcs for free with tons of buffs. If you care about trains so much, go and watch out for hurricane trains. Meanwhile, we fight for our inferno.

Sugaroverdose

Zakor wrote: »

So you are worried about trains? That's funny since trains will always find a way to do things like that. Just imagine a train of 20 mDKs using the current inferno. While it does low damage per hit and hits random it could be devastating also if 5 or more of them hit you the same time! We should clearly remove everything a train could use in this way from the game....hell lets get rid of ALL abilities...

BTT:
The current inferno is a bad joke. The old inferno works the way the dk was designed and was given to the sorcs for free with tons of buffs. If you care about trains so much, go and watch out for hurricane trains. Meanwhile, we fight for our inferno.

I'm completely serious actually, mDK already was the best zerg aoe dps tool in 1.5
Once again, hurricane isn't in trains just because it scales from stamina, and basically sorc(stamina/magicka, doesn't matter) isn't even nearly that good at AoE as mDK or mNB

pieratsos

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

He get hard CC'ed a in vid multiple times which didn't actually stop damage what makes eye of storm (first reason to not make damaging buff)
Solo doesn't get a lot just because of it requires dropping something, which in result means lost of counters(for solo it's not an option) or useful debuff like engulfing flames(10% damage boost)/entropy(increases health pool, gives major sorcery), while trains will love it cause trains have Nx10 slots instead of just 10

So you are saying Eots is OP so dont buff other abilities?

There wasn't anything about how OP Eots, it's how self-targeted AoE dots working

Yeah but the problem with Eots is that its doing way too much dmg and using it as an example with actual numbers isnt exactly proving that inferno will be a broken ability used by zergs. You could also compare it with lightning form of sorcs. Do you see anyone complaining about that being abused by zergs?
The point is that you assumed inferno will do high enough dmg and will have a big enough radius to be abused by zergs while also being useless in solo play cause it wont be giving any useful buffs to the players to make it worth using. Yes thats one way of designing inferno but they could also keep its radius relatively small, dmg doesnt even need to be very high and instead provide useful secondary effects. Like increased class DOT dmg. Or minor magickasteal. If inferno provides 800 regen or makes finishing people off easier then many DKs will be more than happy to drop something for it.

Zakor

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Zakor wrote: »

So you are worried about trains? That's funny since trains will always find a way to do things like that. Just imagine a train of 20 mDKs using the current inferno. While it does low damage per hit and hits random it could be devastating also if 5 or more of them hit you the same time! We should clearly remove everything a train could use in this way from the game....hell lets get rid of ALL abilities...

BTT:
The current inferno is a bad joke. The old inferno works the way the dk was designed and was given to the sorcs for free with tons of buffs. If you care about trains so much, go and watch out for hurricane trains. Meanwhile, we fight for our inferno.

I'm completely serious actually, mDK already was the best zerg aoe dps tool in 1.5
Once again, hurricane isn't in trains just because it scales from stamina, and basically sorc(stamina/magicka, doesn't matter) isn't even nearly that good at AoE as mDK or mNB

I'm also serious. If there is a way to train/exploit/cheat/we some people will ALWAYS do that. But with your logic we had to remove every ability that makes that possible from the game. Since we clearly can't do that you should get over it. We already pointed out in this thread that our ideas are solid, that a change is needed and WHY a change is needed.

Now you get here and fight against us while you fight a completly different problem! Your problem isn't DKs having tons of (strong) AoE. YOUR problem is Zerging or PvP-Trains running around. But those two problems aren't connected! The latter is a result from the former but it's not actually connected to that. The reason behind trains is the lack in ability to counter those. And THAT is your actual problem. There are tools like magicka detonation but they are not strong enough. THAT is your problem.

So PLEASE don't fight us while we fight for our class without having a problem with our idea. The DK was designed to stand his ground against multiple enemies if played good, so let him do that.

MaxwellC

@Sugaroverdose
Mate there are plenty of AoEs that bypass GC such as cinderstorm/eruption lol what you wanna say is player based AoEs. That doesn't do anything at all in fact it helps Mag DKs as well as Stam DKs in the AoE pressure category which is something we're suppose to have and did have because we were told to stand our ground.

You keep changing your argument, I'm sorry if I'm coming down on you hard honestly I can see that in myself but this ability is something I dearly loved using back then and when I saw it taken then given away to sorcerers it's pretty much set me on fire (no pun intended).
The argument you've made so far reminds me of the one when someone argued against me wanting to raise the ultimate on incap to 100/150 and they simply told me "But you can dodge incap"... I literally looked at that comment and re-read it multiple times because I was entirely confused. Which other physical ultimate can you not dodge because there's plenty lol.

MaxwellC

@Zakor
Just read that, well said mate. I got way off track in that entire discussion but I will keep at it. We need our Flames of Oblivion AoE @ZOS_RichLambert
In both this thread and the main DK PTS 2.7.0 thread there's an outcry of support for this ability being an AoE. I've proposed making it give increased DoT damage while others suggested magicka steal while slotted. Please give one of our many ideas a chance, I hate feeling that we're being ignored. I've been harping on this flames of Oblivion AoE since stam sorcs received the look-a-like when there class isn't based on 'standing their ground'. The AoE comes from us because we are to stand our ground damaging our enemies yet you give stam sorcs the mobility along with the AoE that is suppose to aid in standing your ground.

MaxwellC

The last stride in here, PTS patch comes out tomorrow... Please oh please may we have our AoE Flames of Oblivion back!

Zakor

I actually doubt it since they said they won't change much anymore. Inferno back to AoE would be a pretty big change. So I don't get my hopes up and don't get disappointed again *sigh*.

MaxwellC

@Zakor
Yup I definitely I can see it happening, I'm really looking forward to trying to get something changed but man it's a long shot in the dark and I'm willing to take it.

Frondale

agreed...miss the old FOO very much. I miss it staying on all the time.

Mojmir

MaxwellC wrote: »

@sebban
Have you used the old version of Flames of Oblivion because man it was insane
Do note this was before combat was updated so the values seem low but base it on porpotion with the health the enemies have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6aHgR4n1CI

Zo$ probably watched stuff like this and nerfed it instead of buffing dolmens.

MaxwellC

@Mojmir
Probably because back then dolmes were hard to do lol

Zakor

See, I told you to not get your hopes up. On the other hand, they listened to us with cdb, maybe we can finally convince them to include AoE-Inferno into homestead release.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert
can we please get a response to this thread? Would be nice to hear what you guys think about it! Hell, it would be nice to actually hear anything regarding this

MaxwellC

@Zakor
Yeah I saw it coming but I wanted to throw myself a spider's thread to hang onto but @ZOS_RichLambert slapped me down. I even offered to buy him a 24 pack of beer >.<! Maybe @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom can ask if we will ever see this ability changed back to an AoE since it's apart of our 'Stand your ground' playstyle.