Not all classes need to be equally good at all types of gameplay.

Celas_Dranacea

That's my opinion. Discuss.

susmitds

They don't need to equal at all roles. But they all must have at least role at both PvE and PvP in which they are the best. Otherwise, they get pushed to the sidelines. Eg: Magblades, Stamblades, Stamplars in PvE endgame.

Sigtric

Agree


Each class should have strengths and weaknesses for every type of gameplay.

Balance isn't everything being equal. Balance is class B having a hard counter to something class A can do, and the other way around as well.

True balance is also impossible in a game where the players can manipulate skill and gear combinations

OtarTheMad

This is very true but every playstyle should be viable. Right now it's hard to be certain classes and/or certain playstyles and that hurts the game in the long run.

Celas_Dranacea

Thoughtful comments so far!

Strider_Roshin

They're not. You know what a stamblade is good at? Ganking. That is all. People think stamblades are OP because stealth damage is OP. Other than that they're naturally terrible at dueling, group play, and PvE.

Wollust

No they should not be, but every class/spec should be somewhat viable for all playstyles.

Alpheu5

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

That's my opinion. Discuss.

I disagree. Debate.

negbert

All classes should be able to heal, tank, magDPS and stamDPS equally. Your group role shouldn't be dictated by your class.

Solariken

Totally agree with the OP premise, but every class should excel in at least 2-3 distinct areas of gameplay (which should be present in the stamina counterpart as well).

I don't feel like there is any rhyme or reason at all in ESO class design though. In fact I remember Wrobel saying on an ESO live that they just wanted to put together a bunch of cool abilities people would want to use and some classes are just better than others (paraphrase).

If we have to have a rigid class system, I wish they would take the time to actually design them. Is it too late though? I don't know.

Celas_Dranacea

Good comments all - I intentionaly created this philosophical / Socratic question for this type of discussion. I guess I have a responsibility to contribute to discussion a little bit too. So here's quickly where I'm coming from.

I am a stamblade. I am ok with who I am.

My class is king of ganking, imperial city, thieves guild and dark brotherhood content, yet if someone so much as looks at me the wrong way when I'm not on my guard, I explode into a pile of ash. I'm ok with that.

Stamblade is great in pvp which is what I mainly do. I guess maybe I've been lucky to have some friends who have been happy to take me along on vet trial runs and haven't had any issue putting out decent dps. If I want to min/max PVE DPS I will just switch to a class setup that does that best, while I'm trying to do that specific thing, but otherwise I'm ok with where I stand.

I definitely do not disagree with the idea that all classes should be at least viable / useful in different types of gameplay - I think that's what Wrobel and ZOS should be striving for in balancing - I guess I don't feel that we're THAT drastically off the mark atm - there is def more to be done especially with perhaps stamplar and magblade.

Dracane

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

They're not. You know what a stamblade is good at? Ganking. That is all. People think stamblades are OP because stealth damage is OP. Other than that they're naturally terrible at dueling, group play, and PvE.

They are perfect for 1v1. You just have to build for it properly and master it.
One of the best duellist on the EU server is a stamina Nightblade his name is "I'm Jeff btw" he is without a doubt one of the strongest.

susmitds

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

They're not. You know what a stamblade is good at? Ganking. That is all. People think stamblades are OP because stealth damage is OP. Other than that they're naturally terrible at dueling, group play, and PvE.

They are perfect for 1v1. You just have to build for it properly and master it.
One of the best duellist on the EU server is a stamina Nightblade his name is "I'm Jeff btw" he is without a doubt one of the strongest.

Tell me what an NB can do that a stamina sorcerer can't do better in duels?

Khaos_Bane

Even though @Wrobel has said he does not want homogenization of classes that's exactly what he has been doing. @Wrobel is the champion of nerfing unique class abilities and homogenizing the classes.

Joy_Division

susmitds wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

They're not. You know what a stamblade is good at? Ganking. That is all. People think stamblades are OP because stealth damage is OP. Other than that they're naturally terrible at dueling, group play, and PvE.

They are perfect for 1v1. You just have to build for it properly and master it.
One of the best duellist on the EU server is a stamina Nightblade his name is "I'm Jeff btw" he is without a doubt one of the strongest.

Tell me what an NB can do that a stamina sorcerer can't do better in duels?

Duels? Probably nothing. Maybe annoy the other player with fear.

A NB can kill a 45K health target in heavy impen armor in 2 seconds. I don't think a stamina Sorc can do that.

Leandor

susmitds wrote: »

They don't need to equal at all roles. But they all must have at least role at both PvE and PvP in which they are the best. Otherwise, they get pushed to the sidelines. Eg: Magblades, Stamblades, Stamplars in PvE endgame.

Hm. 3 roles. 8 classes. Good luck.

Even with an or between PvE and PvP that's gonna be a challenge. Even if you consider group support and crowd control as separate roles, it is difficult. And no one wants to be the rapids biatsh in pvp.

Izaki

susmitds wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

They're not. You know what a stamblade is good at? Ganking. That is all. People think stamblades are OP because stealth damage is OP. Other than that they're naturally terrible at dueling, group play, and PvE.

They are perfect for 1v1. You just have to build for it properly and master it.
One of the best duellist on the EU server is a stamina Nightblade his name is "I'm Jeff btw" he is without a doubt one of the strongest.

Tell me what an NB can do that a stamina sorcerer can't do better in duels?

Debuff healing. Reduce damage done.

Dev

Joy_Division wrote: »

A NB can kill a 45K health target in heavy impen armor in 2 seconds. I don't think a stamina Sorc can do that.

Probably not, but if the target has 50k health, the sorc will still win while the nb runs back from the respawn spot.

Strider_Roshin

Joy_Division wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

They're not. You know what a stamblade is good at? Ganking. That is all. People think stamblades are OP because stealth damage is OP. Other than that they're naturally terrible at dueling, group play, and PvE.

They are perfect for 1v1. You just have to build for it properly and master it.
One of the best duellist on the EU server is a stamina Nightblade his name is "I'm Jeff btw" he is without a doubt one of the strongest.

Tell me what an NB can do that a stamina sorcerer can't do better in duels?

Duels? Probably nothing. Maybe annoy the other player with fear.

A NB can kill a 45K health target in heavy impen armor in 2 seconds. I don't think a stamina Sorc can do that.

Incorrect. No one has been able to kill my tank 1v1, but the only two classes that have been able to come close are stam sorcs, and magplars. Stamblades can only hit hard when they have incap ready. Other than that they're very underwhelming. My tank has 7500 health regen btw.

Celas_Dranacea

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

They're not. You know what a stamblade is good at? Ganking. That is all. People think stamblades are OP because stealth damage is OP. Other than that they're naturally terrible at dueling, group play, and PvE.

They are perfect for 1v1. You just have to build for it properly and master it.
One of the best duellist on the EU server is a stamina Nightblade his name is "I'm Jeff btw" he is without a doubt one of the strongest.

Tell me what an NB can do that a stamina sorcerer can't do better in duels?

Duels? Probably nothing. Maybe annoy the other player with fear.

A NB can kill a 45K health target in heavy impen armor in 2 seconds. I don't think a stamina Sorc can do that.

Incorrect. No one has been able to kill my tank 1v1, but the only two classes that have been able to come close are stam sorcs, and magplars. Stamblades can only hit hard when they have incap ready. Other than that they're very underwhelming. My tank has 7500 health regen btw.

Back to the point - I have no expectation of being the absolute best duelist with my stamblade - we are best at sneaking and ganking, providing DPS and crowd control in group pvp, etc. we make decent duelists, tanks etc. but are not the best and that's ok.

Bakven

Problem is (PvP wise) with the armor sets, meta, proc sets, weapon abilites/ults out performing all the builds look almost exactly alike. You take any stam build and take 3 classes (Sorc, Templar, and DK) and all 3 will use the same gear, same weapons, same skills, and same ults. They will only have a couple class skills, most will be weapon skills. Magicka has been shoved to the side. Light and Medium armor forgotten. And the 'play how you want' idea is long gone.

Wether intentional or not, @Zos has destroyed unique builds by making certain skills, sets, and weapons, out perform all others.

SanTii.92

susmitds wrote: »

They don't need to equal at all roles. But they all must have at least role at both PvE and PvP in which they are the best. Otherwise, they get pushed to the sidelines. Eg: Magblades, Stamblades, Stamplars in PvE endgame.

I agree, but it's hard to achieve when there are only 2 roles for dps, range and melee, and 8 classes. Ideally we'd want to see fights where some specs shine more than others, but that's not exactly easy.

Celas_Dranacea

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

That's my opinion. Discuss.

I disagree. Debate.

Lol you convinced me - remove races, classes and gear with only sweet rolls for weapons

Paneross

susmitds wrote: »

They don't need to equal at all roles. But they all must have at least role at both PvE and PvP in which they are the best. Otherwise, they get pushed to the sidelines. Eg: Magblades, Stamblades, Stamplars in PvE endgame.

WTH is a Stamplar......no really.

Because they are really bad right now.

Strider_Roshin

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

They're not. You know what a stamblade is good at? Ganking. That is all. People think stamblades are OP because stealth damage is OP. Other than that they're naturally terrible at dueling, group play, and PvE.

They are perfect for 1v1. You just have to build for it properly and master it.
One of the best duellist on the EU server is a stamina Nightblade his name is "I'm Jeff btw" he is without a doubt one of the strongest.

Tell me what an NB can do that a stamina sorcerer can't do better in duels?

Duels? Probably nothing. Maybe annoy the other player with fear.

A NB can kill a 45K health target in heavy impen armor in 2 seconds. I don't think a stamina Sorc can do that.

Incorrect. No one has been able to kill my tank 1v1, but the only two classes that have been able to come close are stam sorcs, and magplars. Stamblades can only hit hard when they have incap ready. Other than that they're very underwhelming. My tank has 7500 health regen btw.

Back to the point - I have no expectation of being the absolute best duelist with my stamblade - we are best at sneaking and ganking, providing DPS and crowd control in group pvp, etc. we make decent duelists, tanks etc. but are not the best and that's ok.

That's not the paradigm of this game though. Every class should be competitive in every aspect of the game. Class should not dictate role, just flavor. There should also be a reciprocal correlation between damage potential, and survivability. I believe the stamblade, and stamplar are the only two that correctly abide by this.

Gilvoth

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

They're not. You know what a stamblade is good at? Ganking. That is all. People think stamblades are OP because stealth damage is OP. Other than that they're naturally terrible at dueling, group play, and PvE.

that is exactly the truth.
i allways shy away from:
1) dragonights whom i know heal back to full,
2) templars whom i know heal back to full,
and
3) sorcerers, whom i can see have massive stacked shields they re-apply every 5 seconds.

in addition they all 3 have these MASSIVE GIRTH round red rings around themselves to pull me completely out of stealth on a constant basis.

ostrapz

"A NB can kill a 45K health target in heavy impen armor in 2 seconds. I don't think a stamina Sorc can do that"
I'm sorry but no, maybe from a gank, but thats not a duel.
There is literally no combo that can put out that much damage that fast

scorpiodog

All Classes should be able to do all content.

BUT ... not all RACE and CLASS combinations can be EQUAL in a particular ROLE. What makes the game interesting is finding the BEST RACE / CLASS / ROLE combination for your play style.

If every choice is equal, why have choices? Just reduce the game to one class and one race.

ALSO .. every play STYLE should NOT be equal to every other play style. Sneaking and Peeking in PvE will never have the same DPS as steam rolling and Spin to Win, for example. Ganking in PvP will be more effective in groups with ambush tactics and support than solo, for example.

If someone wants to make a Wood Elf MagSorc Tank with light armor and Frost Staff ... well, have fun, but no it should NOT be "EQUAL" to a Magplar High Elf Healer, for example. Some combinations are just ineffective while others are powerful.

As someone else said though unfortunately yes, proc sets seem to be the great unbalancer.

Gilvoth

ostrapz wrote: »

"A NB can kill a 45K health target in heavy impen armor in 2 seconds. I don't think a stamina Sorc can do that"
I'm sorry but no, maybe from a gank, but thats not a duel.
There is literally no combo that can put out that much damage that fast

the only way we can do that is if you are completely knocked down and unable to escape our pounding , once you get up and heal, we nightblades die in 2 seconds.

Celas_Dranacea

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

They're not. You know what a stamblade is good at? Ganking. That is all. People think stamblades are OP because stealth damage is OP. Other than that they're naturally terrible at dueling, group play, and PvE.

They are perfect for 1v1. You just have to build for it properly and master it.
One of the best duellist on the EU server is a stamina Nightblade his name is "I'm Jeff btw" he is without a doubt one of the strongest.

Tell me what an NB can do that a stamina sorcerer can't do better in duels?

Duels? Probably nothing. Maybe annoy the other player with fear.

A NB can kill a 45K health target in heavy impen armor in 2 seconds. I don't think a stamina Sorc can do that.

Incorrect. No one has been able to kill my tank 1v1, but the only two classes that have been able to come close are stam sorcs, and magplars. Stamblades can only hit hard when they have incap ready. Other than that they're very underwhelming. My tank has 7500 health regen btw.

Back to the point - I have no expectation of being the absolute best duelist with my stamblade - we are best at sneaking and ganking, providing DPS and crowd control in group pvp, etc. we make decent duelists, tanks etc. but are not the best and that's ok.

That's not the paradigm of this game though. Every class should be competitive in every aspect of the game. Class should not dictate role, just flavor. There should also be a reciprocal correlation between damage potential, and survivability. I believe the stamblade, and stamplar are the only two that correctly abide by this.

I like the part about reciprocal relationship w/ damage and survivability.

I think your correct about the paradigm of the game. But for the sake of Socratic dialogue let me play devil's advocate - when you really think about it, outside of something like vMOL hard mode, what classes are truly not viable for some type of content? Please share examples.

For example are you really truly unable to bring a stamplar DPS into vet trials? Is there DPS like 50% of the next best thing? Sincerely askin here as I'm not an expert

ostrapz

@Celas_Dranacea well the truth is vmol,vma and pvp are the only content worth mentioning considering most content could be done with no armor on literally and in 12man trials people often complete them with disconnects, players who don't know mechanics, or 1 or 2 guys spamming light attacks with a bow in the back. While there are classes that simply can't pass a certain amount of dps compared to others you could look at other roles and see the inability even further. A stamsorc for example has very little to make them good for tanking. And it would literally be impossible for me to play a "heal" role with any stam class. Even all mag classes fall way short of mag templar in regards to healing and mechanically aren't very viable