Strife: Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs by approximately 38%.

f047ys3v3n

Cinbri wrote: »

This is just subjective theorycrafting. I gave you objective numbers, you can go on any eso-wiki site and compare any skills OP mentioned in his very first post and check cost-utility. For this exact reason templar's Blazing Spear won't stun enemies on use anymore.

The particular cost utility of a single skill would matter if we could choose from all available skills. We cannot, there are classes and mNB was one that was week in most respects but significantly propped up by that one skill having admittedly far more utility per cost than probably any other skill in the game even after the last 25% cost increase. With this cost increase the skill is not very usefull and NB is left with probably only crippling grasp and impale as class skills on the bar for an endgame dps build. It is gutted and totally without value. Who would play it over a sorc, which is also ranged, has frags, liquid lighting, curse (if this is still worth while), far better heals now and major sorc in crit surge, a better execute in wrath, and much better class passives.

NB was propped up by the artificially low cost of strife. Without it NB is an empty suit in PVE dps. In PVP I already considered it gimmick as it's heals are turned off against shields and it has no burst. You could cloke and harass folks, you couldn't actually kill anything.

NB was the lowest dps PVE loadout before this change but had some interesting utility, independence with a self combat prayer and good heals and excellent self sustain making it very good in vMA (also didn't hurt that stam NB didn't compete much on the boards so you were in a better position than say sorc with both builds competitive). Now it is just a totally broken class like Sorc in 1.5 Nobody will play and I guarantee you we will just blanket ban them from trials like sorcs in the old days. As many have said, they were already the only class conspicuously absent from top raid groups. I for one probably won't even bother theory crafting on it and will instead focus on the relative merits of my ranged sorc (maybe good for vMA, PVP, and trials) and switching to either stam sorc (good for vMA, PVP and trials) or stam dk (that is a lot of trials dps and also do PVP but probably not vMA).

Toc de Malsvi

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Because for example in duels magblades don't have any sustain problems with magicka as main spammable skill is most cheapest, tho 38% nerf is overkill.

Please, duels. You mean basically removing this skill from Nightblades is justified because of duels? Will that be the benchmark for balancing this game in the future?

Probably that and PvP, yeah.

Dueling is a terrible thing to base game balance upon. It is meant purely for testing builds against one another and was never intended to be a platform for game balance. PvE has always been the primary focus of most MMO's and should remain the standard of balance across all skills. That being said, playing a magblade, as it currently stands in trials and vet pledges, is ESO's equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot before a footrace.

Not even close to true. Hodor ran something like 3 Mageblades in their VMoL runs.

Apparently they no longer do this.

Xvorg

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Because for example in duels magblades don't have any sustain problems with magicka as main spammable skill is most cheapest, tho 38% nerf is overkill.

Please, duels. You mean basically removing this skill from Nightblades is justified because of duels? Will that be the benchmark for balancing this game in the future?

Probably that and PvP, yeah.

Dueling is a terrible thing to base game balance upon. It is meant purely for testing builds against one another and was never intended to be a platform for game balance. PvE has always been the primary focus of most MMO's and should remain the standard of balance across all skills. That being said, playing a magblade, as it currently stands in trials and vet pledges, is ESO's equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot before a footrace.

Not even close to true. Hodor ran something like 3 Mageblades in their VMoL runs.

So the answer is to clone Hodor's builds?

Toc de Malsvi

Xvorg wrote: »

So the answer is to clone Hodor's builds?

Hah, for some maybe. Just wanted to point out that several world first trial runs have been done with three MageBlades. They are not as bad as some make it out to be, and actually make great healers.

xblackroxe

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Because for example in duels magblades don't have any sustain problems with magicka as main spammable skill is most cheapest, tho 38% nerf is overkill.

Please, duels. You mean basically removing this skill from Nightblades is justified because of duels? Will that be the benchmark for balancing this game in the future?

Probably that and PvP, yeah.

Dueling is a terrible thing to base game balance upon. It is meant purely for testing builds against one another and was never intended to be a platform for game balance. PvE has always been the primary focus of most MMO's and should remain the standard of balance across all skills. That being said, playing a magblade, as it currently stands in trials and vet pledges, is ESO's equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot before a footrace.

Not even close to true. Hodor ran something like 3 Mageblades in their VMoL runs.

Not true at all. We only had 2 for the most part since tg launch and that only bc we both couldn't be bothered to change class. After last update i finally did and the only reason we still have one is bc the last guy still cba to learn sorc.
Thats the only reason. Not bc it has any utility or whatever to make it worthwhile for raids.

alephthiago

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Magicka characters dominate top end game PVE.

Magicka gets a staff that removes pressure from their stamina pool in PVP by allowing them to block using Magicka and increases the amount blocked and decreases the cost to block.

Where did you guys read that we now can block USING MAGICKA as resource?
I didnt find it in the patch notes

*EDIT*
damn, look at this

"This passive ability now causes your block to drain Magicka (instead of Stamina) and stops your Magicka Recovery (instead of Stamina Recovery) while blocking when you have a Frost Destruction Staff equipped."

leepalmer95

alephthiago wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Magicka characters dominate top end game PVE.

Magicka gets a staff that removes pressure from their stamina pool in PVP by allowing them to block using Magicka and increases the amount blocked and decreases the cost to block.

Where did you guys read that we now can block USING MAGICKA as resource?
I didnt find it in the patch notes

You can block if you have a frost staff. Frost staff's also have 30% cost reduction and 20% damage reduction when blocking

xblackroxe

Xvorg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Because for example in duels magblades don't have any sustain problems with magicka as main spammable skill is most cheapest, tho 38% nerf is overkill.

Please, duels. You mean basically removing this skill from Nightblades is justified because of duels? Will that be the benchmark for balancing this game in the future?

Probably that and PvP, yeah.

Dueling is a terrible thing to base game balance upon. It is meant purely for testing builds against one another and was never intended to be a platform for game balance. PvE has always been the primary focus of most MMO's and should remain the standard of balance across all skills. That being said, playing a magblade, as it currently stands in trials and vet pledges, is ESO's equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot before a footrace.

Not even close to true. Hodor ran something like 3 Mageblades in their VMoL runs.

So the answer is to clone Hodor's builds?

Would be at least a good start to compete for leaderboards.

FoolishHuman

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Strife was over-performing incredibly. It is reasonable to ask why some other changes were not made to balance this. However Strife was way to cheap for the amount of damage and healing it gave. Just comparing it to Concealed Weapon is very revealing as to its power.


Skill: - - - - - - - - - - Strife: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Concealed Weapon:
Cost: - - - - - - - - - -1367 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2700 base
Damage: - - - - - - - 740 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -822 base
Healing: - - - - - - - -(925) - 25%x5ticks(10s) - - - -0
Range: - - - - - - - - - 28m - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -5m
Utility: - - - - - - - - - healing/ranged dmg - - - - - - - Stun if attacking from stealth, 25% movement speed while stealthed


To summarize Strife costs 51% of Concealed Weapon, yet deals 90% of the damage, heals for more than the damage it causes, and has 560% of the range of Concealed Weapon. Strife gives up the ability to stun from stealth... that is it.

It was massively better and due for a cost increase, increasing the damage of the skill wouldn't balance it only make it the best skill in the entire game.

NB's are on the bottom of the DPS tier, and they could use some love there possibly. Buffing Strife's damage is not the answer. NB's have the most utility and any strong buff to their damage would likely put them over the top.

What kind of comparison is this even? Concealed weapon also gives Major Ward, Major Resolve and increases health by 8%. Force Pulse ignores 10% spell resistance, can hit a second target, has a chance to inflict 3 status effects and restores magicka when it kills an enemy, Altmer and Dunmer do extra damage with it. It will also be unreflectable soon. There is a reason why DDs don't use Strife and it's not because there is some secret power in it. HoTs also do not stack, so it will never heal for full with each cast.

Toc de Malsvi

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Strife was over-performing incredibly. It is reasonable to ask why some other changes were not made to balance this. However Strife was way to cheap for the amount of damage and healing it gave. Just comparing it to Concealed Weapon is very revealing as to its power.


Skill: - - - - - - - - - - Strife: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Concealed Weapon:
Cost: - - - - - - - - - -1367 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2700 base
Damage: - - - - - - - 740 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -822 base
Healing: - - - - - - - -(925) - 25%x5ticks(10s) - - - -0
Range: - - - - - - - - - 28m - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -5m
Utility: - - - - - - - - - healing/ranged dmg - - - - - - - Stun if attacking from stealth, 25% movement speed while stealthed


To summarize Strife costs 51% of Concealed Weapon, yet deals 90% of the damage, heals for more than the damage it causes, and has 560% of the range of Concealed Weapon. Strife gives up the ability to stun from stealth... that is it.

It was massively better and due for a cost increase, increasing the damage of the skill wouldn't balance it only make it the best skill in the entire game.

NB's are on the bottom of the DPS tier, and they could use some love there possibly. Buffing Strife's damage is not the answer. NB's have the most utility and any strong buff to their damage would likely put them over the top.

What kind of comparison is this even? Concealed weapon also gives Major Ward, Major Resolve and increases health by 8%. Force Pulse ignores 10% spell resistance, can hit a second target, has a chance to inflict 3 status effects and restores magicka when it kills an enemy, Altmer and Dunmer do extra damage with it. It will also be unreflectable soon. There is a reason why DDs don't use Strife and it's not because there is some secret power in it. HoTs also do not stack, so it will never heal for full with each cast.

Yeah and Strife increases Magicka by 8%, increases healing by 3%, and increases ult gain through Transfer. This was a comparison of skills not skill line passives.

Strife is incredibly efficient, and was the most bang for your buck by a large margin. That doesn't change that DPS isn't about what is most efficient or does the most for less. It's about what does the most in the shortest amount of time.

Not everything is about who or what does the most damage in the shortest amount of time. Balancing is not purely about the top skills, sometimes other skills still over perform within their function even if they are not the top DPS skill.

Toc de Malsvi

xblackroxe wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Because for example in duels magblades don't have any sustain problems with magicka as main spammable skill is most cheapest, tho 38% nerf is overkill.

Please, duels. You mean basically removing this skill from Nightblades is justified because of duels? Will that be the benchmark for balancing this game in the future?

Probably that and PvP, yeah.

Dueling is a terrible thing to base game balance upon. It is meant purely for testing builds against one another and was never intended to be a platform for game balance. PvE has always been the primary focus of most MMO's and should remain the standard of balance across all skills. That being said, playing a magblade, as it currently stands in trials and vet pledges, is ESO's equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot before a footrace.

Not even close to true. Hodor ran something like 3 Mageblades in their VMoL runs.

Not true at all. We only had 2 for the most part since tg launch and that only bc we both couldn't be bothered to change class. After last update i finally did and the only reason we still have one is bc the last guy still cba to learn sorc.
Thats the only reason. Not bc it has any utility or whatever to make it worthwhile for raids.

I stand corrected. I was going off of old information it seems.

I still would argue that claiming MageBlades are shooting themselves in the foot for Trials is ridiculous. As well as claiming that a skill that as far as I am aware top MageBlade dps don't even use, having a cost increase is somehow breaking MageBlade is also ridiculous.

FoolishHuman

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Strife was over-performing incredibly. It is reasonable to ask why some other changes were not made to balance this. However Strife was way to cheap for the amount of damage and healing it gave. Just comparing it to Concealed Weapon is very revealing as to its power.


Skill: - - - - - - - - - - Strife: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Concealed Weapon:
Cost: - - - - - - - - - -1367 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2700 base
Damage: - - - - - - - 740 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -822 base
Healing: - - - - - - - -(925) - 25%x5ticks(10s) - - - -0
Range: - - - - - - - - - 28m - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -5m
Utility: - - - - - - - - - healing/ranged dmg - - - - - - - Stun if attacking from stealth, 25% movement speed while stealthed


To summarize Strife costs 51% of Concealed Weapon, yet deals 90% of the damage, heals for more than the damage it causes, and has 560% of the range of Concealed Weapon. Strife gives up the ability to stun from stealth... that is it.

It was massively better and due for a cost increase, increasing the damage of the skill wouldn't balance it only make it the best skill in the entire game.

NB's are on the bottom of the DPS tier, and they could use some love there possibly. Buffing Strife's damage is not the answer. NB's have the most utility and any strong buff to their damage would likely put them over the top.

What kind of comparison is this even? Concealed weapon also gives Major Ward, Major Resolve and increases health by 8%. Force Pulse ignores 10% spell resistance, can hit a second target, has a chance to inflict 3 status effects and restores magicka when it kills an enemy, Altmer and Dunmer do extra damage with it. It will also be unreflectable soon. There is a reason why DDs don't use Strife and it's not because there is some secret power in it. HoTs also do not stack, so it will never heal for full with each cast.

Yeah and Strife increases Magicka by 8%, increases healing by 3%, and increases ult gain through Transfer. This was a comparison of skills not skill line passives.

Strife is incredibly efficient, and was the most bang for your buck by a large margin. That doesn't change that DPS isn't about what is most efficient or does the most for less. It's about what does the most in the shortest amount of time.

Not everything is about who or what does the most damage in the shortest amount of time. Balancing is not purely about the top skills, sometimes other skills still over perform within their function even if they are not the top DPS skill.

The passives are part of the skills, you can't just ignore them. You also can't ignore that HoTs don't stack, meaning you will never get the full healing out of strife except if you wait 10 seconds between casts. The magicka passive from siphoning skills doesn't stack, so you won't get anything if you already have a siphoning skill slotted (which every nightblade does and needs - siphoning attacks). The increased healing is only useful for support Nightblades and I have yet to see how all these NB tanks and healers overperform so much that everyone plays them.
Please look at the combination of passives and other class skills to determine the "efficiency" of a skill. Strife is only used by NB tanks and healers and they are very rare. There can't be a case of overperforming here.

xblackroxe

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Strife was over-performing incredibly. It is reasonable to ask why some other changes were not made to balance this. However Strife was way to cheap for the amount of damage and healing it gave. Just comparing it to Concealed Weapon is very revealing as to its power.


Skill: - - - - - - - - - - Strife: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Concealed Weapon:
Cost: - - - - - - - - - -1367 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2700 base
Damage: - - - - - - - 740 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -822 base
Healing: - - - - - - - -(925) - 25%x5ticks(10s) - - - -0
Range: - - - - - - - - - 28m - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -5m
Utility: - - - - - - - - - healing/ranged dmg - - - - - - - Stun if attacking from stealth, 25% movement speed while stealthed


To summarize Strife costs 51% of Concealed Weapon, yet deals 90% of the damage, heals for more than the damage it causes, and has 560% of the range of Concealed Weapon. Strife gives up the ability to stun from stealth... that is it.

It was massively better and due for a cost increase, increasing the damage of the skill wouldn't balance it only make it the best skill in the entire game.

NB's are on the bottom of the DPS tier, and they could use some love there possibly. Buffing Strife's damage is not the answer. NB's have the most utility and any strong buff to their damage would likely put them over the top.

What kind of comparison is this even? Concealed weapon also gives Major Ward, Major Resolve and increases health by 8%. Force Pulse ignores 10% spell resistance, can hit a second target, has a chance to inflict 3 status effects and restores magicka when it kills an enemy, Altmer and Dunmer do extra damage with it. It will also be unreflectable soon. There is a reason why DDs don't use Strife and it's not because there is some secret power in it. HoTs also do not stack, so it will never heal for full with each cast.

Yeah and Strife increases Magicka by 8%, increases healing by 3%, and increases ult gain through Transfer. This was a comparison of skills not skill line passives.

Strife is incredibly efficient, and was the most bang for your buck by a large margin. That doesn't change that DPS isn't about what is most efficient or does the most for less. It's about what does the most in the shortest amount of time.

You compare strife to concealed and conclude that strife was too strong. Maybe its the other way around. Maybe everyone is using strife bc concealed is just a bad ability thats in strong need of a buff. If you compare it with other class spammables its still bad. Whip does ~20% more damage, sweeps does about the same singletarget and is a cone aoe that can proc additional damage.

Toc de Malsvi

FoolishHuman wrote: »

The passives are part of the skills, you can't just ignore them. You also can't ignore that HoTs don't stack, meaning you will never get the full healing out of strife except if you wait 10 seconds between casts. The magicka passive from siphoning skills doesn't stack, so you won't get anything if you already have a siphoning skill slotted (which every nightblade does and needs - siphoning attacks). The increased healing is only useful for support Nightblades and I have yet to see how all these NB tanks and healers overperform so much that everyone plays them.
Please look at the combination of passives and other class skills to determine the "efficiency" of a skill. Strife is only used by NB tanks and healers and they are very rare. There can't be a case of overperforming here.

Everytime you cast Strife you will get healed for 25% of the damage directly, no it doesn't stack that would be obscenely over powered. That doesn't change the fact that if you need to buff, dodge roll, block, or do anthing else besides use Strife, you will still get that heal. In fact you can keep a moderately strong self heal simply by hitting strife every ten seconds.

Being able to face tank fire breathing daedroth in VMA using Swallow Soul to both kill and heal through their damage is over performing.

A skill over performing, does not equate to a class over performing. If Venom Claws cost was 100 stamina with the same damage it does now it would be massively over performing, yet Stam DK's wouldn't be gaining any greater DPS than they are now. Stam DK's would have the same value, but that individual skill would be ridiculously strong for DOT builds.

As a self heal, damage, sustain and ranged dps, Strife was massively over performing. It was too strong a skill, that was virtually a must have for Mag NB solo play. Players got around it or skipped it because either they didn't want or need sustain, or because they just wanted that extra 10% damage. That doesn't change the fact, that it did way to much for way to little cost. With Siphoning attacks, you could literally regen all your magicka while light attack spamming with Strife.

ixie

xblackroxe wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Strife was over-performing incredibly. It is reasonable to ask why some other changes were not made to balance this. However Strife was way to cheap for the amount of damage and healing it gave. Just comparing it to Concealed Weapon is very revealing as to its power.


Skill: - - - - - - - - - - Strife: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Concealed Weapon:
Cost: - - - - - - - - - -1367 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2700 base
Damage: - - - - - - - 740 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -822 base
Healing: - - - - - - - -(925) - 25%x5ticks(10s) - - - -0
Range: - - - - - - - - - 28m - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -5m
Utility: - - - - - - - - - healing/ranged dmg - - - - - - - Stun if attacking from stealth, 25% movement speed while stealthed


To summarize Strife costs 51% of Concealed Weapon, yet deals 90% of the damage, heals for more than the damage it causes, and has 560% of the range of Concealed Weapon. Strife gives up the ability to stun from stealth... that is it.

It was massively better and due for a cost increase, increasing the damage of the skill wouldn't balance it only make it the best skill in the entire game.

NB's are on the bottom of the DPS tier, and they could use some love there possibly. Buffing Strife's damage is not the answer. NB's have the most utility and any strong buff to their damage would likely put them over the top.

What kind of comparison is this even? Concealed weapon also gives Major Ward, Major Resolve and increases health by 8%. Force Pulse ignores 10% spell resistance, can hit a second target, has a chance to inflict 3 status effects and restores magicka when it kills an enemy, Altmer and Dunmer do extra damage with it. It will also be unreflectable soon. There is a reason why DDs don't use Strife and it's not because there is some secret power in it. HoTs also do not stack, so it will never heal for full with each cast.

Yeah and Strife increases Magicka by 8%, increases healing by 3%, and increases ult gain through Transfer. This was a comparison of skills not skill line passives.

Strife is incredibly efficient, and was the most bang for your buck by a large margin. That doesn't change that DPS isn't about what is most efficient or does the most for less. It's about what does the most in the shortest amount of time.

You compare strife to concealed and conclude that strife was too strong. Maybe its the other way around. Maybe everyone is using strife bc concealed is just a bad ability thats in strong need of a buff. If you compare it with other class spammables its still bad. Whip does ~20% more damage, sweeps does about the same singletarget and is a cone aoe that can proc additional damage.

well said

FleetwoodSmack

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Strife was over-performing incredibly. It is reasonable to ask why some other changes were not made to balance this. However Strife was way to cheap for the amount of damage and healing it gave. Just comparing it to Concealed Weapon is very revealing as to its power.


Skill: - - - - - - - - - - Strife: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Concealed Weapon:
Cost: - - - - - - - - - -1367 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2700 base
Damage: - - - - - - - 740 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -822 base
Healing: - - - - - - - -(925) - 25%x5ticks(10s) - - - -0
Range: - - - - - - - - - 28m - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -5m
Utility: - - - - - - - - - healing/ranged dmg - - - - - - - Stun if attacking from stealth, 25% movement speed while stealthed


To summarize Strife costs 51% of Concealed Weapon, yet deals 90% of the damage, heals for more than the damage it causes, and has 560% of the range of Concealed Weapon. Strife gives up the ability to stun from stealth... that is it.

It was massively better and due for a cost increase, increasing the damage of the skill wouldn't balance it only make it the best skill in the entire game.

NB's are on the bottom of the DPS tier, and they could use some love there possibly. Buffing Strife's damage is not the answer. NB's have the most utility and any strong buff to their damage would likely put them over the top.

I pretty much have to agree with the bolded part. After reading the initial change, I was kind of taken back.. But considering everything that's going on there's a few things that are rolling around in my brain already to adapt to it. Currently downloading the PTS and try it out once it's up. Might give me a few more flavors to be other than salty.

Toc de Malsvi

xblackroxe wrote: »

You compare strife to concealed and conclude that strife was too strong. Maybe its the other way around. Maybe everyone is using strife bc concealed is just a bad ability thats in strong need of a buff. If you compare it with other class spammables its still bad. Whip does ~20% more damage, sweeps does about the same singletarget and is a cone aoe that can proc additional damage.

Whip and Sweeps both have range restrictions and only heal on direct damage they do not allow for you to run other functions for 8-10 seconds while maintaining a strong heal. They both cost more as well.

Toc de Malsvi

Lava Whip

Skill: - - - - - - - - - - Strife: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Flame Lash:
Cost: - - - - - - - - - -1367 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2700 base
Damage: - - - - - - - 740 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -740 base
Healing: - - - - - - - -(925) - 25%x5ticks(10s) - - - -0
Range: - - - - - - - - - 28m - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -8m
Utility: - - - - - - - - - healing/ranged dmg - - - - - - - Sets Immobile or Stunned enemies off balance.

Strife is still 50% cheaper, does 100% of the damage, heals, has range. You have to take the Flame Lash morph to even get a heal and the target has to be off balance to get the heal. Taking the other morph increases the damage slightly (70 more spell damage) but offers no heal, still no range and more expensive.



Puncturing Sweeps

Skill: - - - - - - - - - - Strife: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Puncturing Sweeps:
Cost: - - - - - - - - - -1367 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2952 base
Damage: - - - - - - - 740 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -655 base - 117x4x1.4(nearest attacker)
Healing: - - - - - - - -(925) - 25%x5ticks(10s) - - - -0 with morph heals .35 of base (229)
Range: - - - - - - - - - 28m - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -8m
Utility: - - - - - - - - - healing/ranged dmg - - - - - - - AOE cone, slows by 70%

Strife is 54% cheaper, does 13% more damage, heal has range. Again you must take a morph to get a heal from Sweeps, other morph is stamina morph.

Oakmontowls_ESO

I feel like, in terms of mid difficulty pve group content, people are overlooking the change to elemental drain. "Elemental Drain (Weakness to Elements morph): This morph no longer restores a flat value of Magicka whenever you deal Flame, Frost, or Shock Damage to the target. Instead, it applies Minor Magickasteal to them. Created a new debuff category, Minor Magickasteal. This is a debuff applied to enemies that restores a flat value of Magicka to the attacker every second (400 Magicka every second at CP160)." With this change it would have become way easier to sustain while using strife since it would now proc elemental drain. While I still do not agree with this change I do see a possible reason as to why they did it. Personally I would have liked an extra target healed added back to the funnel health morph with this change and maybe a bit of damage in order to bring it up closer to force pulse in terms of dps since as it stands in endgame pve no mnb run strife over the extra damage that force pulse provides.

HuawaSepp

This comparison is not helpful.
Even if strife would be equal to all other spamables that does not mean magblade would peform as good as other classes.
The point is they can raise the costs to 200℅ instead of 138℅, doesn't matter. The low dps will stay low cause of force pulse.
So we can say NBs need competitive heals, cause strife is just a useless waste of a skill slot, not even a dot.

f047ys3v3n

xblackroxe wrote: »

Not true at all. We only had 2 for the most part since tg launch and that only bc we both couldn't be bothered to change class. After last update i finally did and the only reason we still have one is bc the last guy still cba to learn sorc.
Thats the only reason. Not bc it has any utility or whatever to make it worthwhile for raids.

That is what I had heard. I was one of the last 2 people using mNB in the trials groups I run with over here in NA server (I am not in core group 1 for Epic doing vMoL hard mode, they use no NB's at this time). Realistically, my dps had moved from better than average to below with sort of the last blow being the poor procing of the nice new monster sets for the unique combination of NB dps. I was also still using funnel as my spamable because that gave me ~10% of group heals which somewhat made up for the low dps by taking pressure off the healers. I held on too long because I liked the toon, it did vMA very well, it was fun for oddball content like dark brotherhood, and it was a nice simple rotation. I have been practicing sorc for some time now though as it is doing the best ranged dps and I like to be a ranged guy. Even with the small nerfs to sorc I expect it will still work well and intend on fully switching immediately. NB really didn't have that much going for it before and was propped up by an admittedly too cost efficient and useful main spam ability. I consider it a fully broken class with the change. It will be as bad as sorc back in 1.5 and I don't expect even our lower teams to accept any NB's on raids (It has been a while since raid groups blanket banned builds but here we are). NB will have to drop funnel and nobody needs a low dps one DOT wonder with self buffs that are redundant with combat prayer, a weak execute, and weak class ultis running around doing no supplemental heals.

In the long run I have watched this film before. NB in PVE lives and dies by funnel. In 1.6 it's dps was nerfed massively (because it was deemed too good a value and ZOS didn't understand that champ points splitting magica and elemental like they did at that time would have the effect on NB that it did) and they disappeared from the planet only to be resurface 6 months later and become a favorite build with raids sometimes having 4-6 of them and having enough off heals to short a healer. Now, 4 nerfs (heals / aoe dps, first funnel 25% cost increase, proc sets, now 38% funnel cost increase) later history repeats.

On a another note, I thought we were past this degree of re-balance class obliteration at this point in the game development. Guess not.

xblackroxe

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Lava Whip

Skill: - - - - - - - - - - Strife: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Flame Lash:
Cost: - - - - - - - - - -1367 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2700 base
Damage: - - - - - - - 740 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -740 base
Healing: - - - - - - - -(925) - 25%x5ticks(10s) - - - -0
Range: - - - - - - - - - 28m - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -8m
Utility: - - - - - - - - - healing/ranged dmg - - - - - - - Sets Immobile or Stunned enemies off balance.

Strife is still 50% cheaper, does 100% of the damage, heals, has range. You have to take the Flame Lash morph to even get a heal and the target has to be off balance to get the heal. Taking the other morph increases the damage slightly (70 more spell damage) but offers no heal, still no range and more expensive.



Puncturing Sweeps

Skill: - - - - - - - - - - Strife: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Puncturing Sweeps:
Cost: - - - - - - - - - -1367 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2952 base
Damage: - - - - - - - 740 base - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -655 base - 117x4x1.4(nearest attacker)
Healing: - - - - - - - -(925) - 25%x5ticks(10s) - - - -0 with morph heals .35 of base (229)
Range: - - - - - - - - - 28m - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -8m
Utility: - - - - - - - - - healing/ranged dmg - - - - - - - AOE cone, slows by 70%

Strife is 54% cheaper, does 13% more damage, heal has range. Again you must take a morph to get a heal from Sweeps, other morph is stamina morph.

Please show me an actual parse where strife hits as hard as whip does. You cant bc it hit for less. Its worst dps spammable for dps and in pvp it hits about as much as whip does if you run smth like spinner lich infernal on the nb and smth like desert rose rattlecage with less spelldamage magicka and spellpen. So pls dont tell me how op strife hits.

SJD_Phoenix

With siphoning attacks I rarely run out of magicka when I'm running TBS and willpower with Kena, and my regen is only 860.

I didn't like reading this but I can live with it.

xblackroxe

Also dont forget it only heals every 2 sec for less than vigor does so it everything but a reliable heal.

Toc de Malsvi

xblackroxe wrote: »

Please show me an actual parse where strife hits as hard as whip does. You cant bc it hit for less. Its worst dps spammable for dps and in pvp it hits about as much as whip does if you run smth like spinner lich infernal on the nb and smth like desert rose rattlecage with less spelldamage magicka and spellpen. So pls dont tell me how op strife hits.

Whip only hits harder because of setup and morph. Neither Strife Morphs increase the damage, one of the Whip Morphs does increase the damage. Lash only hits harder than Strife if the target is off balance, otherwise the damage is exactly the same. Molten Whip gains 70 spell damage.

The base damage is exactly the same, the difference is in the morphs, and Strife loses slightly on DPS but maintains a massive range, cost, and heal advantage.

Whip is melee and Strife has full range. Whip can only heal off one morph, can only heal when target is off balance. Strife heals off all morphs all the time and heals other players off one morph.

There are two races that get extra fire damage which increase whips damage slightly, there are no races that get extra magic damage to increase Strife.

Toc de Malsvi

xblackroxe wrote: »

Also dont forget it only heals every 2 sec for less than vigor does so it everything but a reliable heal.

Vigor doesn't do damage, and heals for 5 seconds. Base cost of 2700 stamina, they aren't even comparable.

Strife does damage, heals for 10s, base cost of 1367.

Strife does only heal every 2 seconds, unless you spam it, where it heals every cast ~ every 1 second or so.

You have to stop doing damage to use Vigor, you do not have to stop doing damage to use Strife.

Strife is not by any means the #1 dps, or #1 heal, or #1 cheapest cost skill, or #1 max range.

What Strife is is the #1 combination dps/heal/cost/range.

Toc de Malsvi

A 38% increase in cost to Strife puts its new base at 1886, still less than every single magicka skill in the NB tool kit. Still less than every single spammable magicka direct damage in the game.

arkansas_ESO

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Because for example in duels magblades don't have any sustain problems with magicka as main spammable skill is most cheapest, tho 38% nerf is overkill.

You're not just using strife though, you're still casting buffs and reapplying your very expensive annulment. In 5 light with 2k regeneration I still had to use resto heavies often on my nb. As for PVE, mag NBs already run force pulse instead of strife for damage, the only thing strife really had going for it was it's low cost.

And? As tempalr i forced to use BoL and tons of other heals because Sweeps alone won't heal me even against one target. This doesnt change fact that ability most cheapest with good enough potential. Default Sweeps 2952, WB 3240, Crystal Shards 4050, Strife - 1367 <-- see difference?

Swallow Soul does not have the Empower from Wrecking Blow, the AOE from Sweeps, or the damage of Crystal Fragments. I'm not sure why Strife should have a similar cost to these skills when it doesn't have the same damage potential as them.

But it still doesn't. With the 38% cost increase it only has a base cost of 1886 Magicka which is is significantly cheaper than other Magicka spammables. Frankly I'm surprised it took them this long to increase its cost...

I can't speak for every magic NB build, but on my build, it looks like next patch Force Pulse/Crushing Shock will only cost 400 more magicka than Funnel Health/Swallow Soul. For a small cost increase, I'll be able to get more DPS and a damage type that procs sets like Llambris, Burning Spellweave, and Winterborn, or a ranged interrupt, which serves as a hard counter to things like stam sorc's Dark Deal or Radiant Oppression. The heal from Swallow Soul is nice, but I can just slot Rapid Regen on my resto bar to make up for it. At least for me, Swallow Soul is no longer a viable option for both PVE and PVP.

FleetwoodSmack

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Also dont forget it only heals every 2 sec for less than vigor does so it everything but a reliable heal.

Vigor doesn't do damage, and heals for 5 seconds. Base cost of 2700 stamina, they aren't even comparable.

Strife does damage, heals for 10s, base cost of 1367.

Strife does only heal every 2 seconds, unless you spam it, where it heals every cast ~ every 1 second or so.

You have to stop doing damage to use Vigor, you do not have to stop doing damage to use Strife.

Strife is not by any means the #1 dps, or #1 heal, or #1 cheapest cost skill, or #1 max range.

What Strife is is the #1 combination dps/heal/cost/range.

Honestly, I didn't get that either. I can outheal Vigor as a mageblade wearing 5 heavy and using lich as my jewelry and a staff, while keeping constant pressure, stack Wrath, and watch my spell damage skyrocket with group buffs. It's... Lawl.

arkansas_ESO

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Because for example in duels magblades don't have any sustain problems with magicka as main spammable skill is most cheapest, tho 38% nerf is overkill.

Please, duels. You mean basically removing this skill from Nightblades is justified because of duels? Will that be the benchmark for balancing this game in the future?

Probably that and PvP, yeah.

Dueling is a terrible thing to base game balance upon. It is meant purely for testing builds against one another and was never intended to be a platform for game balance. PvE has always been the primary focus of most MMO's and should remain the standard of balance across all skills. That being said, playing a magblade, as it currently stands in trials and vet pledges, is ESO's equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot before a footrace.

Not even close to true. Hodor ran something like 3 Mageblades in their VMoL runs.

Not true at all. We only had 2 for the most part since tg launch and that only bc we both couldn't be bothered to change class. After last update i finally did and the only reason we still have one is bc the last guy still cba to learn sorc.
Thats the only reason. Not bc it has any utility or whatever to make it worthwhile for raids.

I stand corrected. I was going off of old information it seems.

I still would argue that claiming MageBlades are shooting themselves in the foot for Trials is ridiculous. As well as claiming that a skill that as far as I am aware top MageBlade dps don't even use, having a cost increase is somehow breaking MageBlade is also ridiculous.

When a member of an elite raiding group with numerous world first clears of the most difficult content in this game says that their group has effectively zero use for magic NB, I'm hesitant to agree to any nerfs of such a underperforming class.