Please do not remove the stun from Blazing spear skill!! (PVP & PVE Point of view)

crusnik91

@ZOS_RichLambert, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_BrianWheeler Please read this entire Post again(due to edits for counter argument) and reconsider the changes for Blazing spear!

Changes made:
Blazing Spear (Spear Shards morph): Increased the duration of this morph to 8 seconds from 6 seconds, causing it to tick damage an additional 2 times; however, it no longer stuns the enemy when it first hits them.

PVP Combat:
Blazing spear is the only, yes the only half decent cc for magicka templar if u play solo(bear in mind u still need to target ground to cc someone because it is not a target based skill). It is core to every templar who wants do more than just healing. Taking the stun away from this skill means almost the end of magicka templars potential to play solo.
Let's look at other cc skills from templar:
1. Aurora Javelin is just bad for doing follow up damage because of the knock back and high magicka cost.
2. The Gap closer Toppling Charge is buggy and doesn't work 90% of the time if your opponent is on higher or lower ground. The skill itself has a terrible and slow animation thus it's one of the worst cc and gap closer in the whole game. (Please fix this skill already!)

The nerf to radiant I am totally fine with it. The nerf to Blazing Spear I am not fine with it at all. With this cc being out of the picture magicka templars have ZERO potential in doing any sort of reliable damage via jabs because the only way any magicka templar could land their jabs is through following up from a cc.

IMPORTANT: Latest Post - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/312717/balance-direction-in-update-13/p1

PVP Point of view:
My counter argument to Disorient to be consider CC in PVP is pretty simple. Enemy that are disorient cant move unless they break free OR take any source of damage (For example: Entropy, vamp bane dot damage or even caltrops etc etc). This is the main reason why non of the PVPers will ever consider that morph because it is just not reliable in any form during combat. It is just that bad because almost every single main skill used on magicka templar (in PVP) are consider a DOT (Jabs, beam, vamp bane, entropy, walls of element etc etc). Thus, disorient just doesn't cut it as a ''reliable CC'' for templar to perform comparing to STUN as a form of cc.

PVE Point of view:
- This skill isn't under performing because it will proc burning light passive from Aedric Spear Skill line. That is the main reason why most of the mag templars are using it in PVE & PVP. Thus, the 4 secs provided from the skill is just at a sweet spot. (Please DO NOT simplify this skill! It is not just black and white!)
- Stunning (Not disorienting!) Mobs in PVE are equally important especially in End game content like vet Mealstrom arena or any harder 4-men Dungeon(vROM, vCOS, vWGT, vICP). With Stun as your CC' we know that mobs will be disable for amount of a time allowing you to reposition or avoid getting destroyed by the hard hitting mobs especially in vMSA. Disoriented mobs on the otherhand will be able to move as soon as any damage are dealt to them. In PVE sustain damage from skills like wall of element, Reflective Light are constantly up 100% of the time making disorient a terrible form of CC in PVE as well!

Solutions:
1. The best solution would be reverting the skill to its original form. (Why fix something that is working flawlessly?)
2. Optional solution would be to change the form of CC of Luminous Shards from Disorient TO Stun. This would be a nerf for PVPers but not a hard one to take because would miss out only on the burning light damage from DOT of blazing spear.

What will happen if this hits the live server?
1. Some PVErs will suffer in harder content of the game.
2. There will be ONLY 2 ways left for players to play magicka templar in PVP. HP base blazing shield templar or your typical healer/beamplar. So please. Don't take diversity away from my magicka templar because I really don't want to follow the trend and wear reactive + malubeth or any tanky setup to spam heal non stop in order to be competitive.

Disclaimer: The whole post is a FULL SUMMARY of different players (PVE & PVP) reaction to the changes made from this skill and not just the original poster alone

Lastly, examples of why the cc from blazing spear is so important:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbki_x4YrCo

Dread_Guy

I agree. I dont recall anyone ever complaint about blazing spear. The worst part is not only do templars lack any AoE CCs or soft CCs, but now our current CCs are avoidable. How many of you have had your javelins miss because someone is running shuffle or dodge roll Toppling charge...

SneaK

Yep. Overall these updates are only going to pigeon hole players into more specific builds. RIP diversity, RIP ESO.

crusnik91

SneaK wrote: »

Yep. Overall these updates are only going to pigeon hole players into more specific builds. RIP diversity, RIP ESO.

Yes. can't agree more with u!

sinz_xb16_ESO

I am dissappointed with this change as well (as a solo pvper). Blazing Spear and then right away Jabbing them while they're also affected by Vampire's Bane is a big part of my playstyle and how I DPS my targets down, and it worked mostly due to the stun. Without the stun they will just roll/move out of it right away, avoiding most of my Jabs as well. This will really hurt my DPS in PvP.

DisgracefulMind

Not sure why they felt removing the CC that it applies on ONE target necessary. Meh.

crusnik91

sinz_xb16_ESO wrote: »

I am dissappointed with this change as well (as a solo pvper). Blazing Spear and then right away Jabbing them while they're also affected by Vampire's Bane is a big part of my playstyle and how I DPS my targets down, and it worked mostly due to the stun. Without the stun they will just roll/move out of it right away, avoiding most of my Jabs as well. This will really hurt my DPS in PvP.

yea. the combo is already hard enough to land because u need to apply dot + aim ground and predict opponent movement for spears CC + jab in correct direction. With this nerf magplar just doesnt have any offensive potential left... unless u just use beams and flare from afar...

crusnik91

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Not sure why they felt removing the CC that it applies on ONE target necessary. Meh.

dont forget its blockable too and only stuns a RANDOM target as well.

ostrapz

Templars are really strong because of their tankines and healing, alot of that attributed to heavy armor giving infinite block to Snb templars. However this is a nerf that affects arguably the weakest area on a templar, being cc. I don't play my templar much but Shards felt like a fair move to me, group support, dot, and a time able cc that can be blocked or avoided. I really don't agree with this at all, feels like they just tryed to bring templars down a notch after magicka repent buff and they nerfed something unrelated to why they are strong

Ron_Burgundy_79

Dread_Knight_N7 wrote: »

I agree. I dont recall anyone ever complaint about blazing spear. The worst part is not only do templars lack any AoE CCs or soft CCs, but now our current CCs are avoidable. How many of you have had your javelins miss because someone is running shuffle or dodge roll Toppling charge...

If anything, templars have been asking for it to cc everyone in the aoe instead of 1 person.

MarineDeath

When I heal in PVP blazing spear is the only means to get a enemy player away from me. Now I won't have time for my teammates to protect me. Please do not remove this CC.

Gilvoth

templars kill everything and everyone in pvp.
if you try to even hurt a templar they just heal right back to full health immediate. let alone try to kill them ? haha not gona happen unless you have a group with you attacking them and beat them to death, because it's not gona happen solo.

that's not only unfair but it's also out of line with any mmo i have ever seen,
the fact is:
the more you heal the less damage you should be able to do.
the more you tank the less damage you should be able to do.
that's the way it's suppose to be.

ostrapz

@dwemer_paleologist I think you are right but they should have adjusted heavy, or Bol, or templar passives. Shard nerf is not gonna fix the tankines problem you speak of at all, it's an unrelated nerf really

LeifErickson

I am not a fan of this change at all. The cc from this skill is one of the most unique ccs in the game in that it is delayed. This cc is super important for me as a solo to small group player and I don't think it should be removed.

xblackroxe

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

templars kill everything and everyone in pvp.
if you try to even hurt a templar they just heal right back to full health immediate. let alone try to kill them ? haha not gona happen unless you have a group with you attacking them and beat them to death, because it's not gona happen solo.

that's not only unfair but it's also out of line with any mmo i have ever seen,
the fact is:
the more you heal the less damage you should be able to do.
the more you tank the less damage you should be able to do.
that's the way it's suppose to be.

Well i kinda agree but this change makes templar in pvp either go full health blazplar build or healbot. Wanna 1vX? Well rekt, no reliable cc to hit your already clunky as *** dps spammable.

All ZOS tells us with that is go zerg or go home. Other playstyle for templars are not welcome.

danno8

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

templars kill everything and everyone in pvp.
if you try to even hurt a templar they just heal right back to full health immediate. let alone try to kill them ? haha not gona happen unless you have a group with you attacking them and beat them to death, because it's not gona happen solo.

that's not only unfair but it's also out of line with any mmo i have ever seen,
the fact is:
the more you heal the less damage you should be able to do.
the more you tank the less damage you should be able to do.
that's the way it's suppose to be.

And yet Templars are my most killed class according to KillCounter which I installed about 5 months ago.

Blackfyre20

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

templars kill everything and everyone in pvp.
if you try to even hurt a templar they just heal right back to full health immediate. let alone try to kill them ? haha not gona happen unless you have a group with you attacking them and beat them to death, because it's not gona happen solo.

that's not only unfair but it's also out of line with any mmo i have ever seen,
the fact is:
the more you heal the less damage you should be able to do.
the more you tank the less damage you should be able to do.
that's the way it's suppose to be.

Struggling to find anything in here that is relevant to this thread

Pandorii

Honestly, I cannot see the rationale behind this decision (other than to continue the trend of nerfing templar in one way or another every single update).

skwherl

100% agree, theyre changing things that dont need to be changed and arent changing things that do need to be changed, and even if they are theyre messing it up completely

crusnik91

Pandorii wrote: »

Honestly, I cannot see the rationale behind this decision (other than to continue the trend of nerfing templar in one way or another every single update).

yea some decision makes me wonder what are the thought processes behind this. This change just gave me the feeling that no one in PVP department ever played templar in cyrodiil before

itscompton

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Not sure why they felt removing the CC that it applies on ONE target necessary. Meh.

Yeah and not even a full 2 second stun at that. Meanwhile NB's still rolling with 4 second fears and stun/knockdowns.

Surgee

SneaK wrote: »

Yep. Overall these updates are only going to pigeon hole players into more specific builds. RIP diversity, RIP ESO.

There was diversity? All I've seen on pvp is few same meta builds copied from youtubers.

sinz_xb16_ESO

Surgee wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Yep. Overall these updates are only going to pigeon hole players into more specific builds. RIP diversity, RIP ESO.

There was diversity? All I've seen on pvp is few same meta builds copied from youtubers.

Well they're definitely not making it better by completely erasing the viability of DW mag sorcs and DW mag templars from Cyrodiil. Melee magicka NB is also still in a bad place (no changes at all) and mDK will remain mediocre.

crusnik91

Surgee wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Yep. Overall these updates are only going to pigeon hole players into more specific builds. RIP diversity, RIP ESO.

There was diversity? All I've seen on pvp is few same meta builds copied from youtubers.

If u are talking about Magicka templar then i have to disagree. Mag templar is one of the class which can be played with many many diff sets and still work really well.
The only thing which lag diversity from mag templar are the skills. That is the main reason this post is created

WillhelmBlack

Templar has crap CC now. Stupid change.

Lieblingsjunge

Dark Flare - marksman incoming. Whoop whoop.

Idk. Istarted to get used to my templar for 1vX. Now... How can I live without my stun? How do you suggest I stun MELEE characters? Too close for gap close to work! At least before I *COULD* drop a shard and stun it.
Aurora Javelin? Rest in pepperoni magicka.

But hey. If ZoS' wants Templars to be 100% support-built. BE MY GUEST. I CAN ZERG TOO

leepalmer95

Use luminous

Sure you lose the dot but you get the stun and it goes through block as well.

WillhelmBlack

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Use luminous

Sure you lose the dot but you get the stun and it goes through block as well.

Good point but you're losing a dot. I just don't see the point in this nerf, doesn't make any sense.

Qbiken

How can anyone be fine with 21% damage nerf. 21% is just to much.

Qbiken

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Dark Flare - marksman incoming. Whoop whoop.

Idk. Istarted to get used to my templar for 1vX. Now... How can I live without my stun? How do you suggest I stun MELEE characters? Too close for gap close to work! At least before I *COULD* drop a shard and stun it.
Aurora Javelin? Rest in pepperoni magicka.

But hey. If ZoS' wants Templars to be 100% support-built. BE MY GUEST. I CAN ZERG TOO

You already do lieb. I see you way to often running in ballgroups just spamming healingsprings xD

Wreuntzylla

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

templars kill everything and everyone in pvp.
if you try to even hurt a templar they just heal right back to full health immediate. let alone try to kill them ? haha not gona happen unless you have a group with you attacking them and beat them to death, because it's not gona happen solo.

that's not only unfair but it's also out of line with any mmo i have ever seen,
the fact is:
the more you heal the less damage you should be able to do.
the more you tank the less damage you should be able to do.
that's the way it's suppose to be.

ESO is rock/paper/scissors, if you want to kill a specific type of templar, make some changes to your build.

I think most people get these perceptions because they either have a poor grasp on game mechanics or available counters, or simply want to kill everything with the same amount of ease.