Adding difficulty ratings to veteran dungeons

pod88kk

[quote="Yolokin_Swagonborn;311174"

EDIT: Wow, thanks everyone for the great feedback. Here are some ideas from the comments.

• Higher tier dungeons would have to be "Unlocked" by completing lower tier dungeons first.
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  So much yes to this, not only would it help newer players progress & get better but it would also help them with in my opinion the biggest grinds in the game... Getting to undaunted level 9(ugh). It would also put a dampener on those elitists which would be nice.

Lukums1

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

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Lukums1 wrote: »

I dunno over all good ideas.

But I just for-see them doing things like this with no added bonus to us "end game" players.

Just more meaningless content to do for no reward.

Do we need a bonus? This is really aimed at newer players to give them a sense of what they can accomplish.

If they breeze through a 2skull dungeon, they will feel ready to try a 3skull. I just want to prevent new players from getting discouraged by a bad experience accidentally queuing for a dungeon they aren't ready for. That can really sour someone on dugeons and we lose another potential delve buddy each time.

@Yolokin_Swagonborn

I dunno call me old fashion but if the same gear is found in skull 1 and the same in skull 5.

Why would anyone in their right mind would put them through such a task.

I reckon I can speak for most people in my guild and it would be like GTFO and come back with a reward or I ain't doing it.
2 Keys, 3 Keys etc etc.

Danksta

Lukums1 wrote: »

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Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Lukums1 wrote: »

I dunno over all good ideas.

But I just for-see them doing things like this with no added bonus to us "end game" players.

Just more meaningless content to do for no reward.

Do we need a bonus? This is really aimed at newer players to give them a sense of what they can accomplish.

If they breeze through a 2skull dungeon, they will feel ready to try a 3skull. I just want to prevent new players from getting discouraged by a bad experience accidentally queuing for a dungeon they aren't ready for. That can really sour someone on dugeons and we lose another potential delve buddy each time.

@Yolokin_Swagonborn

I dunno call me old fashion but if the same gear is found in skull 1 and the same in skull 5.

Why would anyone in their right mind would put them through such a task.

I reckon I can speak for most people in my guild and it would be like GTFO and come back with a reward or I ain't doing it.
2 Keys, 3 Keys etc etc.

But this wouldn't change the difficulty or the drops. It's meant to be informative for beginners. If you're not a beginner this will have no direct effect on you. It could have a positive effect on you by having less players getting discouraged to run dungeons and becoming better players. Some of those players may become very good players that you end up meeting and then you have a larger selection of who you can run content with.

NordSwordnBoard

I agree with giving more info without restricting access. If we want to carry any CP through WGT on vet we should still be able to.

Even put some book for mage's guild at the start of each vet dungeon that outlines how difficult the dungeon is - if its glowing, people will read hopefully read it. As stated before, just describe how mechanics heavy it is without giving away the answers. A fair warning if you will.

People will think you have ulterior motives if you're trying to talk them out of a dungeon based on what you know and they don't. If it comes across officially, that inexperienced folks may have a rough time in here if you've never done it before, then people may not take it personally.

tinythinker

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

No training or rating system exists for vet dungeons. There is a steep learning curve for some of them and experienced players may not have the time or patience to walk someone through an extremely difficult dungeon, especially over group chat.

Interesting ideas for ratings/unlocking system for vet dungeons, but training is also needed for players just entering basic dungeons. That will help them improve more quickly and be able to better utilize a rating system based on knowing what the heck is going on, as the rating system could include a short blurb about the types of challenges involved.

Two things to consider:

**Official in-game mentoring system**. To build off of that link, it would need to be something that isn't a shiny trinket for snobs and over-achievers to "earn". Instead, you would be rated by newer players (not just newer characters from vet players) based on how helpful you are. The old post linked is missing some key elements, but the idea is that a mentor wears that hat to help, and can't get that hat if they don't spend a lot of time running dungeons with inexperienced players. Maybe also there could be a way to have separate queues for those who are new+those who don't mind going a little slower/explaining and those who just want flawless speed runs with BiS party members tied into this.

The other suggestion, which I can't remember the link to, is to have **a training instance** where you can learn about being each of the three roles with NPC guidance and practice. Or at least have something better than the wailing prison for explaining essential dungeon running mechanics. Here is what this looks like in another game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kApb_JwNnuY

Now for ESO this could be more like a mini-quest with some Undaunted NPCs asking you to tag along in a super-easy, brief trip through some small cave or tunnel where you learn avoiding AoE, using a taunt, the value of DoTs and HoTs, tabbed targeting, etc. Or it could be sparring practice with Undaunted NPCs more like the video. Either way it would help so much.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

tinythinker wrote: »

Now for ESO this could be more like a mini-quest with some Undaunted NPCs asking you to tag along in a super-easy, brief trip through some small cave or tunnel where you learn avoiding AoE, using a taunt, the value of DoTs and HoTs, tabbed targeting, etc. Or it could be sparring practice with Undaunted NPCs more like the video. Either way it would help so much.

An actual Undaunted questline that taught dungeon mechanics, the three roles, would be a very helpful addition to the game. It always struck me as odd that undaunted was the only guild without a questline. They basically tell you "hey go hop in this dungeon, good luck, don't die!" Which is funny because it mirrors ZOS's perceived attitude towards new players and dungeons .

They could add a questline where Morda the mighty begrudgingly admits that too many undanted were dying so they now provide basic training.

LadyNalcarya

Great suggestion!
I hope they would implement something like this.

Ashtaris

Great ideas tinythinker! This is my first MMO that I've played and when I had my first character, I decided to see what this dungeon "Fungal Grotto" was all about. I'm standing out in front of the dungeon and someone asked me if I wanted to join their group. "Sure!!" I said with enthusiasm. Then he asked me "Are you a Tank, DPS, or Healer?" The term healer I figured out on my own, but the only reference to a Tank I had was something that rolled on tracks that you take to a battlefield And for the term "DPS", I didn't have a clue. Needless to say I embarrassingly bowed out. That day I did find out what those terms meant by doing a Google search for "MMO Glossary", but it would be nice to have some kind of Undaunted quest line that leads you through the basics, explaining the different roles, showing you some of the things to watch out for like the red AOE circles, how to watch for boss tells, etc.

pod88kk

In a lot of the dungeons there are subtle mechanic hints eg ruins of mazzatum grabbing the poison and washing it off but a basic tutorial for the different roles and what to look for in dungeons that would be a big help

Thoosa

I agree too, I just tried the inhibitor boss on veteran white-gold tower for the 100th time with a PUG (only about 1% seem to get past it) and even after explaining the mechanics (take turns on pinions and close portals when your screen is grey) the group agreed, but kept failing to close the portals and we kept getting overrun each time. I was new once, and once it was explained to me I got it. Unfortunately two of the 500+ members didn't.

Extremeties

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Hey all. Yolo here,

So there have been several recent heated discussions concerning vet dungeon difficulty, low-CP players getting kicked from groups, players queuing for difficult dungeons without understanding the basic mechanics, etc. Besides for the usual finger pointing and elitism, there were a few good points that surfaced out of these discussions.

• Vet dungeons vary wildly in difficulty and it is frustrating for a new player to determine if their individual skill level is adequate for the dungeon they just queued for.
• CP is a very poor measure of someone's ability to perform their role well in a vet dungeon, but currently it is the only visible indicator of advancement so people rely on it to guage competency.
• Normal Versions of Vet dungeons DO NOT prepare new players for the vet versions as some of the mechanics are missing or can be healed/DPS'ed through.
• No training or rating system exists for vet dungeons. There is a steep learning curve for some of them and experienced players may not have the time or patience to walk someone through an extremely difficult dungeon, especially over group chat.

Ultimately, it falls on ZOS to create an environment where newer players can learn and better themselves without such a steep curve but failing that, perhaps the community could help.


I propose we create a rating system for vet dungeons and measure each one objectively.


Other games have build in difficulty ratings and I feel its important for new player retention that they know whether they are queuing for the dungeon equivalent of "Through the Fire and Flames."

Here is a mock-up of what it might look like: Note that for now I am considering the difficulty of the dungeon as a whole and not the difficulty of individual roles.


The second part would be to create a standard for measuring the difficulty of these dungeons from the perspective of a new player. Note the bolded part. If you come into this thread to tell everyone that X dungeon should be rated easier because your build can solo it, well have fun with your proc set nerfs =p.

Keeping the experience of a new player in mind, this is how I would create the scale.

1. Skull: Base level of difficulty. No real one shot mechanics that aren't avoidable or tauntable. Mechanics are non-lethal (or healable) if ignored. Dungeon has no lethal DPS checks.
2. Skulls: Moderate difficulty. Some mechanics must be followed avoid wipe or one shot but they are easy to understand and execute.
3. Skulls: Hard difficulty. At least one boss with a complex mechanic, kill order or special instructions that must be followed to avoid wipe. Moderate DPS check. Untauntable one shots or heavy AOE damage mechanic.
4. Skulls: Extreme difficulty. Contains complex mechanics or requires complex strategies (that are difficult to explain over text) that must be followed precisely to prevent a wipe. Contains a strong DPS check that results in wipe.

• How would you rate the dungeons to better inform new players?
• Do you agree with my assessments?

If you have any suggestions on how to improve my skull scale (again ONLY from the perspective of a new player) or you want to take the time and post your own assessment of each vet dungeons's difficulty, please do so on the comments. I will edit this with any helpful suggestions after sufficient feedback.

EDIT: Wow, thanks everyone for the great feedback. Here are some ideas from the comments.

• Higher tier dungeons would have to be "Unlocked" by completing lower tier dungeons first.
• Add a fifth tier and consider both SotH dungeons as more technically complex than the Imperial City Dungeons.
• Add an undaunted questline that taught roles (tank,healer,dps) and mechanics (stay out of red circles, watch for boss tells). Thanks to tinythinker for this one.

I love your thinking man.

I just recently came back to the game with a buddy and being a healer, I was able to get into dungeons quicker than my friend so I got to experience more dungeons. That said, I immediately noticed a difference in difficulty with the newer DLC dungeons compared to the older dungeons and its like a night and day difference. I enjoy the hell out of the challenge the new ones present and certainly hope they add more to the fold(Morrowind?)

That said, I like your concepts of adding rankings or stars or what not to indicate which ones are more challenging than others. I also liked some of the ideas of others that brought up having to beat certain dungeons to unlock the more challenging dungeons. Let's hope the devs actually read this thread!

greylox

It'd be quicker if a box came up before a boss explaining mechanics briefly, like 'he does this spell so do this...' etc....Or do some people like wasting what little time they have on this earth trying to figure it out themselves then having to go over it again and again for newbies?

ElliottXO

Wayrest 1 is harder now. The last boss hits like a truck in hard mode.

Megabear

This would help me a great deal.. Is below rating system still accurate? If so I'd like to file it away for my own info later on

Veteran Dungeons (out of *****)

Fungal Grotto 1- *
Fungal Grotto 2- ***
Spindleclutch 1- **
Spindleclutch 2- ***
Banished Cells 1- *
Banished Cells 2- ***
Darkshade Caverns 1- *
Darkshade Caverns 2 - ***
Elden Hollow 1- *
Elden Hollow 2- **
Wayrest Sewers 1- *
Wayrest Sewers 2- **
Arx Corinium- **
City of Ash 1- *
City of Ash 2- ****
Crypt of Hearts 1- *
Crypt of Hearts 2- ***
Direfrost Keep- **
Tempest Island- ***
Volenfell- **
Blackheart Haven- ***
Blessed Crucible- **
Selenes Web- **
Vaults of Madness- *
Cradle of Shadows- *****
Imperial City Prison- ****
Ruins of Mazzatun- *****
White Gold Tower- ****

Yolokin_Swagonborn

OP here, wow its been a while since there was action on this thread. It should be still relevant however next patch is going to push people for resources so some of these dungeons that were a cakewalk with a templar that could spam BoL might be a bit harder.

I liked what @ryanborror did with my initial system and upgraded the SotH dungeons to 5 stars due to mechanics far more complex than ICP or WGT.

The only ones I think might need upgrades are Direfrost (***) and Wayrest 1 (**) I personally have never had much problem with wayrest 1 but if you have a weak tank it can be a nightmare.

With most of these dungeons I am assuming your healer knows the right end of the resto staff and your tank knows what a taunt is.

My system was mainly designed to ask WHY a dungeon is so hard in terms of design? DPS race? One shot mechanic? Heavy hitting boss? Complex mechanic that is tough to explain or coordinate without teamspeak?

that was sort of the way i wanted to rate them and that type of rating system will survive any class buffs, nerfs, etc.

pizzaow

Megabear wrote: »

This would help me a great deal.. Is below rating system still accurate? If so I'd like to file it away for my own info later on

Yeah, it still looks pretty good to me

Magdalina

Joined a group for random yesterday and they were stuck in coa 2 on Titan...one of the dps had 14k health and when I politely pointed out it's too low he said he has all gold gear and believes health shouldn't be important for a dps. Needless to say, he spent the entire fight dead(was also not using Annulment or anything)...between me being healer, tank not taunting atro and trying to die nonstop and the other dps doing less damage than me while healing them nonstop, I politely apologized after we died and bailed. That was simply hopeless. They were 300-400 cp.

Honestly at this point I approve not just of dungeon difficulty rating but of mandatory dungeon tutorial that will not let you do (vet) dungeons until you successfully complete it. I'm fine teaching and even carrying people, but 14k health and like 5k dps...some things are beyond fixing within the dungeon, people need to completely revamp their gear, attributes, rotations to even begin being viable in these cases and there's just absolutely nothing you can do to fix it yourself, and they don't even understand they're underperforming/why they're underperforming

Jemcrystal

When will zos do something about this?

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Jemcrystal wrote: »

When will zos do something about this?

Sometime before the heat death of the universe.

tinythinker

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

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Jemcrystal wrote: »

When will zos do something about this?

Sometime before the heat death of the universe.

aka...