Is Magica DK and Sorc that bad? ...not so sure...

Lifecode666

I know, have seen and fought against so many good magica dk's and magica sorc's it makes me think....

Are they that bad..I mean really... Seems to me that if they do something then it should be really thought through or they will be OP as f!

DK: Execute? Dragonblood?

If they buff dragonblood and give DK a execute that can be morphed both into stam and mag then DAM this must be tested alot.

Sorc:

Shields?
Anything?

Birdovic

DK Execute is something people kept asking for so long now.

Honestly?
I don't think this is a good idea.

Just think about the terrible combination of MagDK Dots pressuring you nonstop and making it hard to escape execute range, while a possible new MagDK execute is spammed on you at the same time.

DK Dragonblood will be an interesting one, and compared to introducing an execute, this one is needed and deserves buffs.


For the Sorc, well:
In case proc madness is nerfed, the shield doesn't need more strength, except maybe a 2sec longer duration at current shield strength.

If proc Sets end up still being too strong after the patch, the shields need to be looked at.

Besides shields, there are more important changes needed on the Sorcerer Class I'd say.

lucky_Sage

magdk will never get execute they said already long time ago.
DB is only used for the 8% healing buff not the crappy heal it gives for pvp anyways

a globel shield nerf shouldn't of happen
harden ward 10 secs
dampen magick 6 secs
obsidian shield 20 secs
healing ward 6 secs
blazing shield don't know how long shield be

RebornV3x

There both ok mag dk just needs a bit here and there to make them better buff dragon blood and maybe flame whip other than that the class is amazing maybe an execute but eh.

Sorc is a beast but.. the class lacks build variety mainly on the magicka side most all wear nearly the same thing with the same abilities it's so boring alot of useless skills or lack thereof no class spammable no gap closer like other classes Streak needs some reworking and this class just doesn't stand out any class can outperform the Sorc you name it.

Joy_Division

When I say mDK is "bad," I am being lazy more than inaccurate. It's not "bad" per se, rather I feel the build/play possibilities are very limited. Because they have constant (as opposed to burst DPS), they have a hard time getting kills. Couple with the class's lack of mobility means it is frustrating to open world by yourself because eventually you're just going to get zerged down. It's too pigeonedholed as a "tank."

The people who claim sorcs are bad have simply stopped PvP in frustration over the shield nerf. I will admit I was down on sorc and played on my templar a lot for a while. Then I actually played for more than an hour and realized what worked before still works because shield stacking is still incredibly strong.

pjwb16_ESO

Ball of Lightning needs buffs

MaxwellC

Lmao the shield on a sorc is still OP as they've always have been. On my Stam DK and even my Mag DK we've both fought sorcs who had a build around shield and every time I'd burn their stamina and try to kill them but still couldn't maybe because the class in general lacks a burst damage but even using 3 DoTs on my Stam and around 5 on my Mag DK did nothing to a sorc that just spammed hard ward + heal ward and even annulment.

Sorcs sit behind their mines, ward up and cast curse/ crystal frags all day from a safe area while stam sorcs just sit there spamming that crystal soft CC/ dark deal since they're able to dark deal and run which makes it near impossible to interrupt unless you're running venom armor/ crushing shock. They even get hurricane which was stolen from Flames of Oblivion which allows them to put pressure when the DK class is all about applying that pressure but DoTs don't do anything in PvP anymore and flames of oblivion is just a joke aka mage light re-skin.
I will say Flames of oblivion is good for PvE but cauterize is absolutely garbage.

Calboy

Magdk is the most balanced class in pvp. Aside from reworking dragon blood, the class is fine. So many great abilities and morphs and you actually need to sacrifice things when making a build.

IMO all other classes need to be reworked so they are more in line with the dk.

MaxwellC

@Calboy
I don't think you play any DK class then.
Mag DK has a few things good about it, all which do not allow what every other class to do (kill and move). On a Mag DK you must either wait for an ultimate to launch a destro ultimate or keep CCing until the person runs out of stamina (This does not work on a class that is built around stacking shields *cough* Sorc *Cough*).

My stam DK has problems when fighting a Mag DK because it relies on stamina in order to damage + along the single fact that every ability from the 2H line does not allow for a burst damage such as class skills that nightblades have access to or any hard hitting skills.

Mag DK is the most underperformed class in PvP, you cannot sustain without sacrificing all the damage in order to do so; Every other class can have a good amount of sustain and high amount of damage yet you believe it's balanced.
Mag DK have the weakest skills in PvP alongside of Stam DKs as they're all DoT based aside from one ultimate that is broken thanks to gap closers and is considerably weak in comparison to onslaught, rend, rapid fire, and dawnbreaker.

I cannot see how this class is 'balanced' when it struggles to survive, output damage, sustain, or build ultimate faster as we were stripped from the dynamic ultimate regen. DoTs apply pressure but how can you apply pressure when a heal outpaces the damage done, a shield covers the damage, a cloak nullifies the damage, and a purge erases that damage.

kadar

Joy_Division wrote: »

When I say mDK is "bad," I am being lazy more than inaccurate. It's not "bad" per se, rather I feel the build/play possibilities are very limited. Because they have constant (as opposed to burst DPS), they have a hard time getting kills. Couple with the class's lack of mobility means it is frustrating to open world by yourself because eventually you're just going to get zerged down. It's too pigeonedholed as a "tank."

The people who claim sorcs are bad have simply stopped PvP in frustration over the shield nerf. I will admit I was down on sorc and played on my templar a lot for a while. Then I actually played for more than an hour and realized what worked before still works because shield stacking is still incredibly strong.

100% agree about the Sorcs. Players want to be the underdog class. Any chance to say that their class/build is underpowered, people will jump in and milk it for all it's worth.

mDK is...different from anything I've played. I struggle to say that it's bad. Many preaching that mDK is terrible are comparing it to the 1vX ability of a stam Sorc, zerging power of mTemplar, stamblade burst, ect. mDK is very good in certain scenarios. Just yesterday, I was on my Stam NB in a keep battle and kept wishing I was on my mDK. The mobility issue decreases during keep defense, for example.

Any buffs given will have to be fully thought out and done carefully to avoid pushing mDK from decent/good to OP. I don't want my mDK to be the new fotm.
#buffDragonBlood

Darsaga

Mag Sorcs and DKs are awesome classes. They take time to master VS easy mode burst stam DPS. That being said from playing both classes for quite a while the only thing MagDK needs is a form of expedition. Root spam also needs to be adressed because the healing buff they are talking about giving MagDK is going to make it very OP. We will go from a handful of people complaining about root spam to everyone crying I cant kill MagDKs. MagSorc is fine as is.

Minalan

Magsorc needs to have the toggles removed and revamped. Do that and I'll be stupid happy.

Pets should have a timer instead of a toggle, the toggle thing cripples pet builds.
Bound aegis should be a slotted ability like mage light with an activation effect. The toggle needs to go.
Shields are fine at six seconds, eight would be nice for hardened ward, but I would prefer it to be cheaper.

I'd almost rather sorc not be touched at this point instead of the horrendous nerfs and bad design incoming because the designers touched it again.

Darsaga

Im on the opposite spectrum I guess. The less buffs i have to keep up the better. Having Ageis on two bars, one pet, or two pets has never bothered me. Set it and forget it! You could argue I cant run Aegis with pets, I say then run Necro. Even if Aegis only needed to be slotted on one bar, I like it on my damage bar not my shield bar, so I would still be lacking a slot on the front bar for damage.

All this is coming from someone who still Dual Wields with sorc and only uses 3 skills anyway.

Dracane

I enjoy the fact, that magicka Sorcerer is not for everyone. It can stay an underdog class in my opinion (which it definately is at this point) They must buff destruction staff abilities and passives though, that's what Sorcerer really needs. Some love for force shock, penetrating magic applying to all your spells and maybe some other things.

I'm frightened, they really want to buff magicka DK. Many people know, that they can be very strong, especially in 1v1 and in groups. But it's happening So no use to cry about it

Ragnaroek93

I don't like the terms stamina and magicka, I would rather see heavy armor stamina, heavy armor magicka, medium armor and light armor. In my opinion heavy armor magicka, medium armor and light armor are in a good spot right now, they just can't compete with heavy armor stamina builds.
The reasons why heavy armor is too strong on stamina are Redguard, Unchained passive and the heavy armor passive that gives 50% more ressources on heavy attacks. On my medium armor nightblade I usually run 2200-2900 stamina regen, on my magicka sorc I run 1600-2000 magicka regen, on a heavy armor Redguard build I can run 800 regen. Class doesn't matter much in my opinion, it's just the combination of Unchained, Redguard and heavy armor which is out of control.

Armitas

There are only two types of mDK's left, the ones that couldn't cope and now run irrelevant 1vNone tank builds with no damage, and the ones that squeezed every ounce of power out of it and stuck through the hard times. Other than the sad tanks the only mDK's I meet know what they are doing. They are strong because hardship builds innovation.

It can't be that bad for sorc when shield spamming 20k+ shield stacks is now a dps ability (Infernal Guardian).

Biro123

I think magsorc is pretty-much fine in terms of power but lacking in terms of versatility - simply due to the amount of skills that either need double-slotting, or get more benefit from double-slotting..

Most people know that about the pet skills - and bound armours - but even frags can benefit from a double-slot too if you want your back-bar abilities to proc it..

imho, the only problem with sorcs is either not being able to slot enough abilities, or the time it takes to switch to/from the overload bar (which in itself limits ulti choice).

Mag DK's though I'm not sure.. I don't know the class well at all - but fighting against them, yeah, they can drain your stam in not time - which on its own isn't gonna kill ya - but as soon as one more person turns up and you're a light-armoured sorc out of stam - its game over. MagDK's seem to me to be already very good components in a group setup.

Would I be correct in thinking that as the size of the engagement scales up(on both sides), Mag DK's get better, but magsorcs get worse..?

TreeHugger1

Minalan wrote: »

Magsorc needs to have the toggles removed and revamped. Do that and I'll be stupid happy.

Pets should have a timer instead of a toggle, the toggle thing cripples pet builds.
Bound aegis should be a slotted ability like mage light with an activation effect. The toggle needs to go.
Shields are fine at six seconds, eight would be nice for hardened ward, but I would prefer it to be cheaper.

I'd almost rather sorc not be touched at this point instead of the horrendous nerfs and bad design incoming because the designers touched it again.

Unfortunately it won't happen from obvious reasons,pets are already very strong(5K-7.5K twilight dot,1.5 k scamp dot+14k damage over 4 seconds and an unblockable stun and if you use daedric prey morph they both deal ridiculous damage...).
Yes pets need a change,they are very buggy twilight has only 13 k hp,cp points don't affect them etc...
Few important changes for sorc (my personal opinion):
1.streak animation change.
2.BoL is buggy,reflects only for 2.5 seconds,so the fatigue(4 seconds) makes it useless.
3.Buff Boundless Storm.
4.Change streak fatigue.
5.Buff Storm Atronach.

Elara_Northwind

I love playing my sorcerer, she is definitely not weak, my only issue is that I have to double bar so many skills... I have two that need to be slotted on both bars, leaving me room for only 6 skills, which is a little annoying...

Etaniel

Imo the only thing that magicka dragonknight needs is a buff to dragon blood so that it actually becomes a usable heal again, and a fix to wings which aren't reliable, and totally useless in outnumbered situations.

The limit to projectiles was an idiotic fix, as it kept the skill super strong in duels, and a hard counter to range builds, but made it moot in open world, where it doesn't matter if your build is countered because you aren't alone anyways.

Mitoice

They just need to make the useless spells into good ones like daedric mines... that goes for all classes but to me the sorc has the most useless spells

Bashev

Etaniel wrote: »

Imo the only thing that magicka dragonknight needs is a buff to dragon blood so that it actually becomes a usable heal again, and a fix to wings which aren't reliable, and totally useless in outnumbered situations.

The limit to projectiles was an idiotic fix, as it kept the skill super strong in duels, and a hard counter to range builds, but made it moot in open world, where it doesn't matter if your build is countered because you aren't alone anyways.

This, plus reliable gap closer which even if the skill is dodged you move at least to the target.

Biro123

Etaniel wrote: »

The limit to projectiles was an idiotic fix, as it kept the skill super strong in duels, and a hard counter to range builds, but made it moot in open world, where it doesn't matter if your build is countered because you aren't alone anyways.

Idk.. I can see what you're saying with its scaling - but as a DW sorc, I hate this ability more than anything else in game. In open-world I still get an awful lot of frags reflected by this - and what you don't see are the amount of frags that either don't get cast at you because the animation was spotted - or was held off a bit - which totally screws up the timed burst with curse.. Then you start to set up the next burst - hoping that it will proc in time (which it often doesn't or you have to interrupt it to do defensive stuff). 6-9 seconds or so later you my get another perfectly setup burst and boing!! reflected again..

It may seem like its only one ability reflected but setting up that burst involves a light attack (to proc dmg glyph), curse, bar swap, degeneration, possibly a shield(if frags not procced) THEN a procced, empowered frag with curse going off at the same time all with the spelldmg boost and major sorcery buiff up. Its nothing without that frag and it took a full 3-4 seconds of uninterrupted casting at the same target to do.


I probably see it a lot more than you think due to the amount of 'full tank DK's' in PVP that go to the front of any pushes (or instigate them), spamming reflects etc.. as opposed to it being uses as an occasional defensive skill on a less-tanky build. It is quite strong.

Minalan

Etaniel wrote: »

Imo the only thing that magicka dragonknight needs is a buff to dragon blood so that it actually becomes a usable heal again, and a fix to wings which aren't reliable, and totally useless in outnumbered situations.

The limit to projectiles was an idiotic fix, as it kept the skill super strong in duels, and a hard counter to range builds, but made it moot in open world, where it doesn't matter if your build is countered because you aren't alone anyways.

Reflect is a ridiculously powerful skill in any fight. Period. Most sorc abilities can be dodged, blocked, shielded, and on top of that *reflected*.

Doing mass damage back to MYSELF needs to be tempered with a max number of projectiles. Which is what the devs did. And it works. The fact that you can't reflect more than a few projectiles for one quick cast is balanced. The ability is already a huge hard counter, it doesn't need to be an automatic instant win.

Dracane

TreeHugger1 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Magsorc needs to have the toggles removed and revamped. Do that and I'll be stupid happy.

Pets should have a timer instead of a toggle, the toggle thing cripples pet builds.
Bound aegis should be a slotted ability like mage light with an activation effect. The toggle needs to go.
Shields are fine at six seconds, eight would be nice for hardened ward, but I would prefer it to be cheaper.

I'd almost rather sorc not be touched at this point instead of the horrendous nerfs and bad design incoming because the designers touched it again.

Unfortunately it won't happen from obvious reasons,pets are already very strong(5K-7.5K twilight dot,1.5 k scamp dot+14k damage over 4 seconds and an unblockable stun and if you use daedric prey morph they both deal ridiculous damage...).
Yes pets need a change,they are very buggy twilight has only 13 k hp,cp points don't affect them etc...
Few important changes for sorc (my personal opinion):
1.streak animation change.
2.BoL is buggy,reflects only for 2.5 seconds,so the fatigue(4 seconds) makes it useless.
3.Buff Boundless Storm.
4.Change streak fatigue.
5.Buff Storm Atronach.

The scamp stun is blockable
The scamp aoe is not buffed by daedric prey. (either intentionally or bug, but it has been this way since the game exists)
And the twilight doesn't hit nearly as hard as mentioned. It always depends on your targets resistance. But I have never seen such a hit in 2 years, not even from the twilight tormentor.

Please only speak, if you have used these abilities before.

CPT_CAPSLOCK

Birdovic wrote: »

For the Sorc, well:
In case proc madness is nerfed, the shield doesn't need more strength, except maybe a 2sec longer duration at current shield strength.

You know that the proc nerf is also a shield nerf?
Cause procs will now do less dmg vs anything but shields.

Minalan

CPT_CAPSLOCK wrote: »

Birdovic wrote: »

For the Sorc, well:
In case proc madness is nerfed, the shield doesn't need more strength, except maybe a 2sec longer duration at current shield strength.

You know that the proc nerf is also a shield nerf?
Cause procs will now do less dmg vs anything but shields.

I'm.. okay with that.

I still think it's the wrong fix, and will only encourage more proc set stacking. But anything at this point is an improvement.

Dracane

Minalan wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Imo the only thing that magicka dragonknight needs is a buff to dragon blood so that it actually becomes a usable heal again, and a fix to wings which aren't reliable, and totally useless in outnumbered situations.

The limit to projectiles was an idiotic fix, as it kept the skill super strong in duels, and a hard counter to range builds, but made it moot in open world, where it doesn't matter if your build is countered because you aren't alone anyways.

Reflect is a ridiculously powerful skill in any fight. Period. Most sorc abilities can be dodged, blocked, shielded, and on top of that *reflected*.

Doing mass damage back to MYSELF needs to be tempered with a max number of projectiles. Which is what the devs did. And it works. The fact that you can't reflect more than a few projectiles for one quick cast is balanced. The ability is already a huge hard counter, it doesn't need to be an automatic instant win.

If reflects are supposed to counter ranged enemies, then maybe reflects should not reflect projectiles that are cast at you from under 10 meters range. So that Sorcs have a chance to stand up against this.

Moglijuana

Sorc is OP with people who know what they're doing. The shield nerf did nothing to good players. MagDK is "ok". If I had a more reliable self heal, a bit more sustain (the most expensive skills in the game and no class regen is funnnnnnn) and a working gap closer I would feel more "balanced".

Biro123

CPT_CAPSLOCK wrote: »

Birdovic wrote: »

For the Sorc, well:
In case proc madness is nerfed, the shield doesn't need more strength, except maybe a 2sec longer duration at current shield strength.

You know that the proc nerf is also a shield nerf?
Cause procs will now do less dmg vs anything but shields.

I'm not so sure.. yeah, it won't make shields last any longer.. but when they do go down, sorcs that aren't running impen have more time to re-apply them.

Dracane

CPT_CAPSLOCK wrote: »

Birdovic wrote: »

For the Sorc, well:
In case proc madness is nerfed, the shield doesn't need more strength, except maybe a 2sec longer duration at current shield strength.

You know that the proc nerf is also a shield nerf?
Cause procs will now do less dmg vs anything but shields.

Right.
That's why I don't like this solution. I will still suffer the same from proc sets, only the overflow damage (which can crit even if the initital hit did not crit) will be slightly lower.

Let's just hope, that less people are attracted by proc sets. But they will still be best in slot for everyone. I don't see this changing.