Is Magica DK and Sorc that bad? ...not so sure...

Jsmalls

Minalan wrote: »

Magsorc needs to have the toggles removed and revamped. Do that and I'll be stupid happy.

Pets should have a timer instead of a toggle, the toggle thing cripples pet builds.
Bound aegis should be a slotted ability like mage light with an activation effect. The toggle needs to go.
Shields are fine at six seconds, eight would be nice for hardened ward, but I would prefer it to be cheaper.

I'd almost rather sorc not be touched at this point instead of the horrendous nerfs and bad design incoming because the designers touched it again.

All of this. Just working on the destruction staff skill line as a whole would be enough for me as well.

And for the love of God please fix the Shield ultimate. Please. I can't handle getting caught in heavy staff attacks anymore.

forzajuve212

Really just hoping for a dragon blood buff at best, maybe a few tweaks to outdated passives to cost reduction/ulti regen and I'd be happy

Derra

Joy_Division wrote: »

The people who claim sorcs are bad have simply stopped PvP in frustration over the shield nerf. I will admit I was down on sorc and played on my templar a lot for a while. Then I actually played for more than an hour and realized what worked before still works because shield stacking is still incredibly strong.

@Joy_Division this has always plagued the sorc class in my opinion. Playing a sorc i personally feel it´s completely and utterly wrong for harness and hardened ward to stack.
It should not work that way. Being able to stack two shields on top of 100% HP is broken.

I also feel it´s one of the things holding the sorc class back in terms of build variety as the problems of the class (basically being completely onedimensional in terms of magica builds) are masqued very well by having the ability to shieldstack and as a result being able to make light armor vaible compared to DKs and templars (i´d say magblades are a difficult topic here).

I would wish for harness to get completely reworked to be more along the lines of medium duration utility like shuffle and immovable are instead of being an instant defense move.
That way light armor could finally be adressed.

TreeHugger1

Dracane wrote: »

TreeHugger1 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Magsorc needs to have the toggles removed and revamped. Do that and I'll be stupid happy.

Pets should have a timer instead of a toggle, the toggle thing cripples pet builds.
Bound aegis should be a slotted ability like mage light with an activation effect. The toggle needs to go.
Shields are fine at six seconds, eight would be nice for hardened ward, but I would prefer it to be cheaper.

I'd almost rather sorc not be touched at this point instead of the horrendous nerfs and bad design incoming because the designers touched it again.

Unfortunately it won't happen from obvious reasons,pets are already very strong(5K-7.5K twilight dot,1.5 k scamp dot+14k damage over 4 seconds and an unblockable stun and if you use daedric prey morph they both deal ridiculous damage...).
Yes pets need a change,they are very buggy twilight has only 13 k hp,cp points don't affect them etc...
Few important changes for sorc (my personal opinion):
1.streak animation change.
2.BoL is buggy,reflects only for 2.5 seconds,so the fatigue(4 seconds) makes it useless.
3.Buff Boundless Storm.
4.Change streak fatigue.
5.Buff Storm Atronach.

The scamp stun is blockable
The scamp aoe is not buffed by daedric prey. (either intentionally or bug, but it has been this way since the game exists)
And the twilight doesn't hit nearly as hard as mentioned. It always depends on your targets resistance. But I have never seen such a hit in 2 years, not even from the twilight tormentor.

Please only speak, if you have used these abilities before.

Please forgive me for my confusion,unlike you I didn't have the last 2 years to count all of the pets' bugs.
I obviously talked about tooltips nothing else,and I was right about that...
http://prnt.sc/dr1ec6
(I only speak because I used these abilities before:p).

Xsorus

I play a Sorc a lot now; frankly if they buffed shields they'd be stupid overpowered in combination of things like Pirates.

NBrookus

Moglijuana wrote: »

MagDK is "ok". If I had a more reliable self heal, a bit more sustain (the most expensive skills in the game and no class regen is funnnnnnn) and a working gap closer I would feel more "balanced".

Pretty much this. mDK doesn't need a LOT, it just under-performs across the board.

Fix wings, fix chains.
Reduce magicka costs or give us a passive or something to address that without giving stam DKs cheap magicka utility.
Give us a reliable heal.
If we aren't going to get an execute (which I'm okay with) give us a major defile or something to help our damage stick better.

If I had a reliable heal I could afford to dump some mitigation and stack more magicka and spell damage. Noodle whip might be something to be feared instead of easily out-healed.

We'll know if the operation is likely to be a success in a few hours.

forzajuve212

NBrookus wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

MagDK is "ok". If I had a more reliable self heal, a bit more sustain (the most expensive skills in the game and no class regen is funnnnnnn) and a working gap closer I would feel more "balanced".

Pretty much this. mDK doesn't need a LOT, it just under-performs across the board.

Fix wings, fix chains.
Reduce magicka costs or give us a passive or something to address that without giving stam DKs cheap magicka utility.
Give us a reliable heal.
If we aren't going to get an execute (which I'm okay with) give us a major defile or something to help our damage stick better.

If I had a reliable heal I could afford to dump some mitigation and stack more magicka and spell damage. Noodle whip might be something to be feared instead of easily out-healed.

We'll know if the operation is likely to be a success in a few hours.

Pretty much this ^

Another possible buff that wouldnt affect pve but would help mag dk in pvp is getting access to major spell breach via whip just like Surprise attack does for stam nb

Joy_Division

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

The people who claim sorcs are bad have simply stopped PvP in frustration over the shield nerf. I will admit I was down on sorc and played on my templar a lot for a while. Then I actually played for more than an hour and realized what worked before still works because shield stacking is still incredibly strong.

@Joy_Division this has always plagued the sorc class in my opinion. Playing a sorc i personally feel it´s completely and utterly wrong for harness and hardened ward to stack.
It should not work that way. Being able to stack two shields on top of 100% HP is broken.

I also feel it´s one of the things holding the sorc class back in terms of build variety as the problems of the class (basically being completely onedimensional in terms of magica builds) are masqued very well by having the ability to shieldstack and as a result being able to make light armor vaible compared to DKs and templars (i´d say magblades are a difficult topic here).

I would wish for harness to get completely reworked to be more along the lines of medium duration utility like shuffle and immovable are instead of being an instant defense move.
That way light armor could finally be adressed.

I agree!

NBrookus

P.S. I hope we don't get over-buffed. I want all the people that have been re-rolling mDK these past few weeks in anticipation of being the FOTM to have to work for it and be disappointed they don't get easy mode.

But that said, if they do buff us into total OPness, I will be laughing at all the stamblade tears and running a fire destro dunmer DK.

Xvorg

NBrookus wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

MagDK is "ok". If I had a more reliable self heal, a bit more sustain (the most expensive skills in the game and no class regen is funnnnnnn) and a working gap closer I would feel more "balanced".

Pretty much this. mDK doesn't need a LOT, it just under-performs across the board.

Fix wings, fix chains.
Reduce magicka costs or give us a passive or something to address that without giving stam DKs cheap magicka utility.
Give us a reliable heal.
If we aren't going to get an execute (which I'm okay with) give us a major defile or something to help our damage stick better.

If I had a reliable heal I could afford to dump some mitigation and stack more magicka and spell damage. Noodle whip might be something to be feared instead of easily out-healed.

We'll know if the operation is likely to be a success in a few hours.

Molten whip needs to be reworked. The extra spell and wpn dmg in the ardent flame skill line does not encourage the use of skills in that line and in the case of stam DKs it seems useless considering sets that give +400 spell and wpn dmg on the same skills.

Durham

Can see it now .... no longer being able to move in PVP .. Elder Talons lol...

forzajuve212

NBrookus wrote: »

P.S. I hope we don't get over-buffed. I want all the people that have been re-rolling mDK these past few weeks in anticipation of being the FOTM to have to work for it and be disappointed they don't get easy mode.

But that said, if they do buff us into total OPness, I will be laughing at all the stamblade tears and running a fire destro dunmer DK.

Agreed

Moglijuana

NBrookus wrote: »

P.S. I hope we don't get over-buffed. I want all the people that have been re-rolling mDK these past few weeks in anticipation of being the FOTM to have to work for it and be disappointed they don't get easy mode.

But that said, if they do buff us into total OPness, I will be laughing at all the stamblade tears and running a fire destro dunmer DK.

Exactly. Getting OVER buffed is the LAST thing I want to happen to Mag DK. Only time will tell I guess...buttt like you said, my MDK is already "OP" to some players, I can't imagine how well I'd do if I actually got over buffed...lol

Dracane

TreeHugger1 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TreeHugger1 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Magsorc needs to have the toggles removed and revamped. Do that and I'll be stupid happy.

Pets should have a timer instead of a toggle, the toggle thing cripples pet builds.
Bound aegis should be a slotted ability like mage light with an activation effect. The toggle needs to go.
Shields are fine at six seconds, eight would be nice for hardened ward, but I would prefer it to be cheaper.

I'd almost rather sorc not be touched at this point instead of the horrendous nerfs and bad design incoming because the designers touched it again.

Unfortunately it won't happen from obvious reasons,pets are already very strong(5K-7.5K twilight dot,1.5 k scamp dot+14k damage over 4 seconds and an unblockable stun and if you use daedric prey morph they both deal ridiculous damage...).
Yes pets need a change,they are very buggy twilight has only 13 k hp,cp points don't affect them etc...
Few important changes for sorc (my personal opinion):
1.streak animation change.
2.BoL is buggy,reflects only for 2.5 seconds,so the fatigue(4 seconds) makes it useless.
3.Buff Boundless Storm.
4.Change streak fatigue.
5.Buff Storm Atronach.

The scamp stun is blockable
The scamp aoe is not buffed by daedric prey. (either intentionally or bug, but it has been this way since the game exists)
And the twilight doesn't hit nearly as hard as mentioned. It always depends on your targets resistance. But I have never seen such a hit in 2 years, not even from the twilight tormentor.

Please only speak, if you have used these abilities before.

Please forgive me for my confusion,unlike you I didn't have the last 2 years to count all of the pets' bugs.
I obviously talked about tooltips nothing else,and I was right about that...
http://prnt.sc/dr1ec6
(I only speak because I used these abilities before:p).

Tooltip !
But first, the tooltip is bugged, because it shows 25% more damage than it should- Because the tooltip adds elemental expert, even though the twilights actual damage is not affected by it.

And then I thought, you are talking about pvp hits.

ZoM_Head

Lifecode666 wrote: »

I know, have seen and fought against so many good magica dk's and magica sorc's it makes me think....

Are they that bad..I mean really... Seems to me that if they do something then it should be really thought through or they will be OP as f!

DK: Execute? Dragonblood?

If they buff dragonblood and give DK a execute that can be morphed both into stam and mag then DAM this must be tested alot.

Sorc:

Shields?
Anything?

Its the mobility issue + healing that hit the DK hard.

Remember, Cinder Storm gave mDKs a dodge chance + reflect + dynamic ulti + dragons blood = insane ulti regen.

All of that has been nerfed/changed in one update.

If you fought against "good" mDks, im pretty sure that they rely heavily on CCs to proc flame lash for their heals and they most likely run heavy. I run a DOT build in Cyrodiil, took me a long time to find the right way to do it, but i run light + resto (yes, resto because no proper class heals for the mDK in Cyrodiil still).

Execute? no, i do not wish to see one. MAYBE a passive or skill such as FOO dealing 50% more DOT dmg to targets at "low health", something to make a DOT mDK hit hard in Cyrodiil since all other classes can execute? again MAYBE.

I am suffering a bit in Cyrodiil on my mDK, mainly due to mobility and nothing to counter those 30m jeasus beam spammers, and templars constantly and cheaply cleansing everything i do in 1 skill. Correction, they cleans, snare, heal, heal over time and damage you with one ability. I almost get 1 shotted from stamNBs running the cookie cutter builds (Selene/Vilendreth, Viper, Widowmaker setup), that healing debuff from incap at such a cheap cost, IMO, should be removed, since burst wise they get you down to around 10-15% health with ambush + incamp alone + the 3 proc sets, but that can be discussed for a later day.

Do not worry, i feel that zeni will make DB sort of more useful in PvP but not really anything with change THAT much for the mDK, unless they suprise us (which i hope they do, since mDKs were nerfed to the ground in Update 5).

TreeHugger1

Dracane wrote: »

TreeHugger1 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TreeHugger1 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Magsorc needs to have the toggles removed and revamped. Do that and I'll be stupid happy.

Pets should have a timer instead of a toggle, the toggle thing cripples pet builds.
Bound aegis should be a slotted ability like mage light with an activation effect. The toggle needs to go.
Shields are fine at six seconds, eight would be nice for hardened ward, but I would prefer it to be cheaper.

I'd almost rather sorc not be touched at this point instead of the horrendous nerfs and bad design incoming because the designers touched it again.

Unfortunately it won't happen from obvious reasons,pets are already very strong(5K-7.5K twilight dot,1.5 k scamp dot+14k damage over 4 seconds and an unblockable stun and if you use daedric prey morph they both deal ridiculous damage...).
Yes pets need a change,they are very buggy twilight has only 13 k hp,cp points don't affect them etc...
Few important changes for sorc (my personal opinion):
1.streak animation change.
2.BoL is buggy,reflects only for 2.5 seconds,so the fatigue(4 seconds) makes it useless.
3.Buff Boundless Storm.
4.Change streak fatigue.
5.Buff Storm Atronach.

The scamp stun is blockable
The scamp aoe is not buffed by daedric prey. (either intentionally or bug, but it has been this way since the game exists)
And the twilight doesn't hit nearly as hard as mentioned. It always depends on your targets resistance. But I have never seen such a hit in 2 years, not even from the twilight tormentor.

Please only speak, if you have used these abilities before.

Please forgive me for my confusion,unlike you I didn't have the last 2 years to count all of the pets' bugs.
I obviously talked about tooltips nothing else,and I was right about that...
http://prnt.sc/dr1ec6
(I only speak because I used these abilities before:p).

Tooltip !
But first, the tooltip is bugged, because it shows 25% more damage than it should- Because the tooltip adds elemental expert, even though the twilights actual damage is not affected by it.

And then I thought, you are talking about pvp hits.

Yes though the tooltip damage of the scamp(about 4.5 k pulse) is correct.

MusekininKanchou

I've used Sorc very little but my brother-in-law can solo almost any vet pledge. The little ones anyway and we've duo or trio-ed most of the big ones so I don't know that it needs any help DK doesn't really seem to be lacking for me but I play a mostly balanced DK tank. Can solo the normal pledges easily. Vet maybe, I started a couple times but it takes too damn long. Heck I get more killing blows on my DK tank than I did on Magika DPS Nightblade but then I like to be in the middle of things so I think my play style doesn't suite it so I die a lot. Charging into a zerg doesn't work so well in lite armor. With heavy armor and good self heals it can be a good time.

cschwingeb14_ESO

For pvp, I think that a buff to light armor will be enough for sorcs right now. For example, increase shield strength, duration or reduce cost per piece of light armor worn. The only other missing thing would be a melee-magicka ability.

For DKs, I imagine that changing dragon blood to scale with total health (not missing health) will bring enough reliability to the skill. The % healed might need to be dropped a bit (ie, 25-30% total health), but still affected by PvP reduction

DKs and magblade would also get some good mileage out of a light armor buff

Xvorg

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Lifecode666 wrote: »

I know, have seen and fought against so many good magica dk's and magica sorc's it makes me think....

Are they that bad..I mean really... Seems to me that if they do something then it should be really thought through or they will be OP as f!

DK: Execute? Dragonblood?

If they buff dragonblood and give DK a execute that can be morphed both into stam and mag then DAM this must be tested alot.

Sorc:

Shields?
Anything?

Its the mobility issue + healing that hit the DK hard.

Remember, Cinder Storm gave mDKs a dodge chance + reflect + dynamic ulti + dragons blood = insane ulti regen.

All of that has been nerfed/changed in one update.

If you fought against "good" mDks, im pretty sure that they rely heavily on CCs to proc flame lash for their heals and they most likely run heavy. I run a DOT build in Cyrodiil, took me a long time to find the right way to do it, but i run light + resto (yes, resto because no proper class heals for the mDK in Cyrodiil still).

Execute? no, i do not wish to see one. MAYBE a passive or skill such as FOO dealing 50% more DOT dmg to targets at "low health", something to make a DOT mDK hit hard in Cyrodiil since all other classes can execute? again MAYBE.

I am suffering a bit in Cyrodiil on my mDK, mainly due to mobility and nothing to counter those 30m jeasus beam spammers, and templars constantly and cheaply cleansing everything i do in 1 skill. Correction, they cleans, snare, heal, heal over time and damage you with one ability. I almost get 1 shotted from stamNBs running the cookie cutter builds (Selene/Vilendreth, Viper, Widowmaker setup), that healing debuff from incap at such a cheap cost, IMO, should be removed, since burst wise they get you down to around 10-15% health with ambush + incamp alone + the 3 proc sets, but that can be discussed for a later day.

Do not worry, i feel that zeni will make DB sort of more useful in PvP but not really anything with change THAT much for the mDK, unless they suprise us (which i hope they do, since mDKs were nerfed to the ground in Update 5).

Funny thing, with softcaps and decent chains you could be able to make a mDK carrying a bow, using poison injection as your dot execute

ParaNostram

The problem with sorc is that there are a few moves that are almost vital that you use and the rest are all... Sort of... Eh...

I mean, look at how you build a DK vs a Sorc. Sorc, well, you gotta have shields, oh and the curse is nice... Then we have mines, streak, etc... But everything else? Feels kinda, meh... I mean my build is basically pets and the essential shield, mines, curse, etc moves.

DKs though feel like their kit lends to more varried builds. You can stand at a distance and rely on shields and reflects as you lob damage at a range, or you can get in the thick of it with fire breathing deep breathing AoE fire dots EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE OH MY GOODNESS! Is that little Timmy all roasted across the map? Wasn't me!

Feel me?

TreeHugger1

Dracane wrote: »

TreeHugger1 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Magsorc needs to have the toggles removed and revamped. Do that and I'll be stupid happy.

Pets should have a timer instead of a toggle, the toggle thing cripples pet builds.
Bound aegis should be a slotted ability like mage light with an activation effect. The toggle needs to go.
Shields are fine at six seconds, eight would be nice for hardened ward, but I would prefer it to be cheaper.

I'd almost rather sorc not be touched at this point instead of the horrendous nerfs and bad design incoming because the designers touched it again.

Unfortunately it won't happen from obvious reasons,pets are already very strong(5K-7.5K twilight dot,1.5 k scamp dot+14k damage over 4 seconds and an unblockable stun and if you use daedric prey morph they both deal ridiculous damage...).
Yes pets need a change,they are very buggy twilight has only 13 k hp,cp points don't affect them etc...
Few important changes for sorc (my personal opinion):
1.streak animation change.
2.BoL is buggy,reflects only for 2.5 seconds,so the fatigue(4 seconds) makes it useless.
3.Buff Boundless Storm.
4.Change streak fatigue.
5.Buff Storm Atronach.

The scamp stun is blockable
The scamp aoe is not buffed by daedric prey. (either intentionally or bug, but it has been this way since the game exists)
And the twilight doesn't hit nearly as hard as mentioned. It always depends on your targets resistance. But I have never seen such a hit in 2 years, not even from the twilight tormentor.

Please only speak, if you have used these abilities before.

"Summon Volatile Familiar (Summon Unstable Familiar morph):
Increased the duration of this pet’s special ability to 8 seconds from 4 seconds, causing it to pulse for two extra ticks of damage.
Fixed an issue where the damage from this morph’s special ability was not being increased by Daedric Prey.
Summon Winged Twilight: Increased the health of the pet summoned by this ability and its morphs by 100% (15889 Health at CP160, up from 7945)."
THE IRONY

Natas013

For DK Dragon blood needs a fix as does empowering chains, a mag dragon leap would be nice but not necessary. That along with a few passive reworks, namely fixed stam return, increase DoT slightly while target is in execute range, and mag regen or cost reduction.

Sorcs need toggles removed, a class spamable (one tied to bound agis and a gap closer to armaments would be nice), empowering ward to actually be empowering by granting minor force or minor brutality half the shields up time, and atleast a 2 sec increase to shield times. Some passive reworks would be nice but not necessary.