Add Crafting Lessons To The Crown Store

Stopnaggin

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

@Tai-Chi
@Stopnaggin

Put simply, i believe that the following would be good for crafting (equip):
1 - reduce trait research to 1 day max per trait or even make it a flat one day = one trait time frame from first trait to last trait (keep the same 3 traits skills max thingy)
2 - Allow trait lessons in craft store to allow you to buy a given trait for a given weapon/piece. possibly charge less for prosperous, charged, training - non-end game traits. heck, even if it excluded the BiS conmtender traits like sharp, precise, nirn and a few others, thats fine too.

None of these would make me feel my crafter's anvil isn't as hard as it used to be or that my crafter's needle isn't as long as it once was.

To the points you raised...

First off, my equip crafters finished their advancement long ago. So i literally have nothing to gain and no axe to grind here on the subject. just like i have characters who made the trek to vr16 the old way and characters who got the promotion when vet level went away and cp=lvl became account wide, i am very aware of the differences between slow and steady and quickie.

Second, while "crafting" has an impact on gameplay in that it allows you to create gear, advancing the speed with which you gain crafting does not. it makes not one point of difference in any fight whether the enemy got his gear by months of crafting research, buying quickie from crown store, or weeks of crafting research (my 1 day trait max) or with instant gratification from guild vendors. The end result is the same, all that is being made different is how long it takes to get to the point and that can vary an awful lot just by available playtime. So, sorry i dont see this as any more a "game impact" vs "convenience" than say horse skills or vampire/werewolf lines. The destination in game remains identical, just the road taken to get there. To specific reference the @sigtric #10, nobody is asking for "if i buy crown crafting its getting me better gear than if i just do crafting the old way" - only the route one takes to get to the exact same impact on gameplay include a crown store option as well as the long road. (or in my case, trait times reduced.)

How you get to a or b is convenience, not impact. What you can do once you get to A or b is impact and nobody is asking for crowing boost there.


Third, my face remained slap free for all my rank 60 horse chars when they started putting horse lessons in the crown store even though i had characters who had "spent the time" or "put in the effort" .
My face also remained slap free when they made the leapfrog vet levels 1-15 to go straight to cp160, even though i had four maybe five who had done the trek to vet16 the old way, "put in the effort" so to speak.
It would remain slap free if they reduce trait time to 1 day max or put "trait learnin'" into crown stores, even though i have full 9 trait crafters maxed etc.
The reason all these are true is that i did all these things for me and for what they allowed my characters to do and that has not changed one bit. For me it isn't any kind of "i can craft TBS and you cannot" sense of superiority thing, just a simple "can i do this or not."

Fourth, I am one of the most vocal proponents for equip crafting needing a serious improvement in the wake of 1T. My posts are numerous and my sig contains a list of changes i think need to be made. What i dont get is the notion that somehow you can link "making crafting quicker or more convenient in crown store or by reducing the trait time to max 1 day to them killing crafting. if anything, making crafting more advancable (get it to maybe not as fast as the consumables but at least not months maybe weeks) will encourage more people to take up crafting, not add nails to the coffins.

Fifth, you missed the point about 1 day vs weeks or month. its not about forgetting. its about getting to be so long it ceases to be of any interest on a daily basis. I literally log in every character every day because of daily deliveries. i literally log-in every character who has horse capacity lessons every day to buy that next inventory slot (or sometimes speed). I literally log-in every character every day who has Db suppliers to get my alchemy stuff. I literally login my writ characters every day ro run writs. (Every day = every day i login at all - obviously some days i cannot login like vacations or hospitals or other commitments.) These things draw me into characters access even if i dont plan to run those that day. Some days i have logged in and done just these. Many other games use the same types of mechanics, daily timers promote logging in to even just click those activities. once they move to weeks or months between access - it ceases to promote any significant increase in access, in activity.

Sixth, its not like those 8th and 9th traits are dealbreakers in power. Sure, TBS requires 9 but Hundings and Julianos are both what six? The bang for buck/time up to six traits is very very very superior to the bang for buck/time for the last three traits. Learn sharpened, precise, nirned, powered, defending and infused and that leaves you with days to weeks each for charged, training and prosperous (is that the ninth?) Does it really make sense to you to spend more time learning trained, prosperous and charged than the other six combined?

Finally to, @Tai-Chi i dont see anything naive about not feeling i have lost something just because someone else gains something similar. This isn't an ego thing for me just a functionality thing and frankly, even with functionality, i recognize in a living game things may change so the "boon" i got one day might get reduced at some later point. (Doesn't mean i wont fight to get it fixed, as i do now for crafting.)

And finally finally to @Stopnaggin we will have to agree to disagree on whether or not in a living breathing game where things change having an achievement you already acquired become acquirable by different roads somehow lessons mine or yours. When the nfl went to 16 game seasons, all those who had achieved 1000 yd rushing in shorter seasons did not suddenly lose the credibility of that achievement. if anything, theirs became MORE SIGNIFICANT, since it was acquired in a shorter time frame. (though one can argue the high value passing mode these days shifts that back some... so as in ESo, ebbs and flows.)


But to be equally clear, i am NOT in favor of allowing any "buy scroll to gain inspirations" kind of cash for "experience in skill line thing" for any skill. (but really, its not the "levels of skill" that slows down equip crafting anywhere near as much as the traits.

No you and I are pretty much on the same page about crafting improvements.

On the nfl side note yes those who held records before 16 game seasons are better recognized for their acomplishments then the newer players, but to draw that comparison to eso is not apples to apples. The nfl isn't making it easier to gain rushing titles or records, they are not diluting to pool so to speak. And while you may not feel the sting of ZOS making things easier, I can't say I feel the same.

I was there for the Vr system, cp transition. And the reason I have no problems with that is was junk from the start. I also see the need to have a fresh player base to keep the game alive. I don't believe they need to shorten everything for the sake of bringing in people, who more than likely won't stay. I have watched Zos cave on several fronts to appease the casual base, and some I agree with, others not so much. To me if there is no journey and I can get instant gratification what's the point. I will have played myself out before I ever got started. The game as most mmos is a grind. I can't see a 10 year plan if they make it too easy to "end game".

uhh adding two more games to the season made it easier to gain 1000 yds in a season - you had two more games to do it in.
runners whp previously only made 900yds could not make 1000 yds with the exact same effort per game that failed to get them 1000 before.

But, in fact, the main difference is it is an actual accomplishment in the NFl.

For crafting in ESo, we are literally talking about "running out the clock." trait research is logging in an clicking a few things and then waiting for a calendar/clock to run down. Its not like beating vmsa or vmol which at least have some degree of difficulty.

What you are so literally wrapping your "slap in the face" diminishing your achievement ego around is you have spent more time (offline out of game or online in game) than the other guy.

Now if that works for you, great, but there is no way that a month wait for a trait research promotes more interest in crafting and less interest in crafting is not good for crafting IMO.

Would you be Ok if you got an extra "participation trophy" achievement added when they reduce it - for you and everyone else already with the maxed when the change hits? that way you even get something the new guys cannot have... unless they too grind it out old school.

is this really about the "face slap" or keeping more folks out of crafting?

Ok so you suggest, on your analogy, lets make every yard gained 5 yards, seems fair right. That way you know the other running backs in the league wouldn't have to work as hard. That way they can all have their participation trophy.

And yeah it should be something certain people are interested in, if you want to craft take the time to do it. It's not for everyone, and the whole make my life easier crowds are the ones yelling the loudest. If the game becomes so easy it will die sooner rather than later. Most people, us non passive aggressive types, will move on to something that offers a challange, then you will have the players that want life easy move on to the next easy game.

Since 1t I have seen more people crying about changes to make the game easier, why? This isn't a Lego game. It's supposed to be an MMO RPG yes? Supposed to put in some kind of effort yes? Nope let's make everything so easy to accommodate the loudest people in the room. Hard to belive I know, but some of us actually enjoy the fact that we put in such effort, no actually stuck it out to finish. While it may not mean anything to you it does to others. But to tell the truth all this want everything easy crowd is getting rather tiresome.

First, no i did not suggest the nfl make 1 yd = 5 yds. i merely pointed out that the longer season easier to reach 1000 yds per season mark actually made having gotten it the old way MORE prestigious not less.

And, i have to say, this "make it easy" vs "make it hard" logic is utter crap.

This isn't a nerf maelstrom thread or tone down world bosses thread.

hate to tell you this but the only "effort" required to get all traits mastered is living IRL long enough to do it.
Its not "effort". its not "hard" it just has a unique timing factor that is out of proportion to gains and out of proportion to other crafting in the game.

Someone doesn't have to solo VMSA in skivies to get from 8 to 9 traits. Thay have to click and wait 22 days or so while prosperous cooks on their maul. Then repeat it a lot more times.

The difference between that 22 days for prosperous and that original 5 hours for sharpened is that before you go to count prosperous you had 22 days of time to fill doing other stuff. You didn't even have to spend any of that 22 days crafting.

Now, if it was "22 days during which you have to decon another piece of the same type and same trait" than you are talking putting in "extra effort."

When you go to the doctor or DMV and you have to wait for an exceptionally long time way out of proportion to your typical times, do you thank them for giving you such a greater sense of accomplishment when they finally see you?
if they add more staff and advanced scheduling systems and cut wait times down, do you feel slapped in the the face?
Do you feel your driver's lic is suddenly not as good since others now get theirs in half the time?

the key to me is this: if there were a crown path to traits or a change to 1 day trait period, you could still choose to play thru at the old pace. others could choose the faster pace. Everyone could get their own internal preferences met. Since everyone has their own preferences, their own lifestyles and their own demands on time - that seems good to me. more choices fit more people.

But then i dont have any need for "external" influences and having my "preferences" enforced over others.

No but in your previous post you are trying to make it less time consuming. As with the nfl analogy, if we want to make things easier or less time consuming the go ahead and add the extra yards. We wouldn't want anyone to miss out right. Goes back to the whole participation trophy. You yourself added it only takes time, so if you are planning on sticking around what's your hurry? It's all in the backround, you get notices when a trait is finished, go research another piece. I'm sorry but crafting in wood, metal and cloth should take longer than provisioning and alchemy. 4 trait on each reagent and just mix and match to find the right combination. Provisioning you have the recipe. No so with the others.

The thing is for me at least, if you don't want to invest in crafting then don't, same applies to group content, VMA and hard mode dungeons. All can be done in time, but if you can't be bothered to do so that's on each individual player. Same thing as someone who got 10th prestige in World at War, win all races in Forza and other achievements. It took time, and when people started cheezing their way into it, those achievements became lessend. I know first hand, as my son got into a game where I was working on 10th prestige and he found a guy that had the infamous hack disc and when I logged back in found that I had 10th prestige. So yeah I was pissed, I want to earn my stuff, same as crafting I will earn the master crafter status, in time.

STEVIL

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

@Tai-Chi
@Stopnaggin

Put simply, i believe that the following would be good for crafting (equip):
1 - reduce trait research to 1 day max per trait or even make it a flat one day = one trait time frame from first trait to last trait (keep the same 3 traits skills max thingy)
2 - Allow trait lessons in craft store to allow you to buy a given trait for a given weapon/piece. possibly charge less for prosperous, charged, training - non-end game traits. heck, even if it excluded the BiS conmtender traits like sharp, precise, nirn and a few others, thats fine too.

None of these would make me feel my crafter's anvil isn't as hard as it used to be or that my crafter's needle isn't as long as it once was.

To the points you raised...

First off, my equip crafters finished their advancement long ago. So i literally have nothing to gain and no axe to grind here on the subject. just like i have characters who made the trek to vr16 the old way and characters who got the promotion when vet level went away and cp=lvl became account wide, i am very aware of the differences between slow and steady and quickie.

Second, while "crafting" has an impact on gameplay in that it allows you to create gear, advancing the speed with which you gain crafting does not. it makes not one point of difference in any fight whether the enemy got his gear by months of crafting research, buying quickie from crown store, or weeks of crafting research (my 1 day trait max) or with instant gratification from guild vendors. The end result is the same, all that is being made different is how long it takes to get to the point and that can vary an awful lot just by available playtime. So, sorry i dont see this as any more a "game impact" vs "convenience" than say horse skills or vampire/werewolf lines. The destination in game remains identical, just the road taken to get there. To specific reference the @sigtric #10, nobody is asking for "if i buy crown crafting its getting me better gear than if i just do crafting the old way" - only the route one takes to get to the exact same impact on gameplay include a crown store option as well as the long road. (or in my case, trait times reduced.)

How you get to a or b is convenience, not impact. What you can do once you get to A or b is impact and nobody is asking for crowing boost there.


Third, my face remained slap free for all my rank 60 horse chars when they started putting horse lessons in the crown store even though i had characters who had "spent the time" or "put in the effort" .
My face also remained slap free when they made the leapfrog vet levels 1-15 to go straight to cp160, even though i had four maybe five who had done the trek to vet16 the old way, "put in the effort" so to speak.
It would remain slap free if they reduce trait time to 1 day max or put "trait learnin'" into crown stores, even though i have full 9 trait crafters maxed etc.
The reason all these are true is that i did all these things for me and for what they allowed my characters to do and that has not changed one bit. For me it isn't any kind of "i can craft TBS and you cannot" sense of superiority thing, just a simple "can i do this or not."

Fourth, I am one of the most vocal proponents for equip crafting needing a serious improvement in the wake of 1T. My posts are numerous and my sig contains a list of changes i think need to be made. What i dont get is the notion that somehow you can link "making crafting quicker or more convenient in crown store or by reducing the trait time to max 1 day to them killing crafting. if anything, making crafting more advancable (get it to maybe not as fast as the consumables but at least not months maybe weeks) will encourage more people to take up crafting, not add nails to the coffins.

Fifth, you missed the point about 1 day vs weeks or month. its not about forgetting. its about getting to be so long it ceases to be of any interest on a daily basis. I literally log in every character every day because of daily deliveries. i literally log-in every character who has horse capacity lessons every day to buy that next inventory slot (or sometimes speed). I literally log-in every character every day who has Db suppliers to get my alchemy stuff. I literally login my writ characters every day ro run writs. (Every day = every day i login at all - obviously some days i cannot login like vacations or hospitals or other commitments.) These things draw me into characters access even if i dont plan to run those that day. Some days i have logged in and done just these. Many other games use the same types of mechanics, daily timers promote logging in to even just click those activities. once they move to weeks or months between access - it ceases to promote any significant increase in access, in activity.

Sixth, its not like those 8th and 9th traits are dealbreakers in power. Sure, TBS requires 9 but Hundings and Julianos are both what six? The bang for buck/time up to six traits is very very very superior to the bang for buck/time for the last three traits. Learn sharpened, precise, nirned, powered, defending and infused and that leaves you with days to weeks each for charged, training and prosperous (is that the ninth?) Does it really make sense to you to spend more time learning trained, prosperous and charged than the other six combined?

Finally to, @Tai-Chi i dont see anything naive about not feeling i have lost something just because someone else gains something similar. This isn't an ego thing for me just a functionality thing and frankly, even with functionality, i recognize in a living game things may change so the "boon" i got one day might get reduced at some later point. (Doesn't mean i wont fight to get it fixed, as i do now for crafting.)

And finally finally to @Stopnaggin we will have to agree to disagree on whether or not in a living breathing game where things change having an achievement you already acquired become acquirable by different roads somehow lessons mine or yours. When the nfl went to 16 game seasons, all those who had achieved 1000 yd rushing in shorter seasons did not suddenly lose the credibility of that achievement. if anything, theirs became MORE SIGNIFICANT, since it was acquired in a shorter time frame. (though one can argue the high value passing mode these days shifts that back some... so as in ESo, ebbs and flows.)


But to be equally clear, i am NOT in favor of allowing any "buy scroll to gain inspirations" kind of cash for "experience in skill line thing" for any skill. (but really, its not the "levels of skill" that slows down equip crafting anywhere near as much as the traits.

No you and I are pretty much on the same page about crafting improvements.

On the nfl side note yes those who held records before 16 game seasons are better recognized for their acomplishments then the newer players, but to draw that comparison to eso is not apples to apples. The nfl isn't making it easier to gain rushing titles or records, they are not diluting to pool so to speak. And while you may not feel the sting of ZOS making things easier, I can't say I feel the same.

I was there for the Vr system, cp transition. And the reason I have no problems with that is was junk from the start. I also see the need to have a fresh player base to keep the game alive. I don't believe they need to shorten everything for the sake of bringing in people, who more than likely won't stay. I have watched Zos cave on several fronts to appease the casual base, and some I agree with, others not so much. To me if there is no journey and I can get instant gratification what's the point. I will have played myself out before I ever got started. The game as most mmos is a grind. I can't see a 10 year plan if they make it too easy to "end game".

uhh adding two more games to the season made it easier to gain 1000 yds in a season - you had two more games to do it in.
runners whp previously only made 900yds could not make 1000 yds with the exact same effort per game that failed to get them 1000 before.

But, in fact, the main difference is it is an actual accomplishment in the NFl.

For crafting in ESo, we are literally talking about "running out the clock." trait research is logging in an clicking a few things and then waiting for a calendar/clock to run down. Its not like beating vmsa or vmol which at least have some degree of difficulty.

What you are so literally wrapping your "slap in the face" diminishing your achievement ego around is you have spent more time (offline out of game or online in game) than the other guy.

Now if that works for you, great, but there is no way that a month wait for a trait research promotes more interest in crafting and less interest in crafting is not good for crafting IMO.

Would you be Ok if you got an extra "participation trophy" achievement added when they reduce it - for you and everyone else already with the maxed when the change hits? that way you even get something the new guys cannot have... unless they too grind it out old school.

is this really about the "face slap" or keeping more folks out of crafting?

Ok so you suggest, on your analogy, lets make every yard gained 5 yards, seems fair right. That way you know the other running backs in the league wouldn't have to work as hard. That way they can all have their participation trophy.

And yeah it should be something certain people are interested in, if you want to craft take the time to do it. It's not for everyone, and the whole make my life easier crowds are the ones yelling the loudest. If the game becomes so easy it will die sooner rather than later. Most people, us non passive aggressive types, will move on to something that offers a challange, then you will have the players that want life easy move on to the next easy game.

Since 1t I have seen more people crying about changes to make the game easier, why? This isn't a Lego game. It's supposed to be an MMO RPG yes? Supposed to put in some kind of effort yes? Nope let's make everything so easy to accommodate the loudest people in the room. Hard to belive I know, but some of us actually enjoy the fact that we put in such effort, no actually stuck it out to finish. While it may not mean anything to you it does to others. But to tell the truth all this want everything easy crowd is getting rather tiresome.

First, no i did not suggest the nfl make 1 yd = 5 yds. i merely pointed out that the longer season easier to reach 1000 yds per season mark actually made having gotten it the old way MORE prestigious not less.

And, i have to say, this "make it easy" vs "make it hard" logic is utter crap.

This isn't a nerf maelstrom thread or tone down world bosses thread.

hate to tell you this but the only "effort" required to get all traits mastered is living IRL long enough to do it.
Its not "effort". its not "hard" it just has a unique timing factor that is out of proportion to gains and out of proportion to other crafting in the game.

Someone doesn't have to solo VMSA in skivies to get from 8 to 9 traits. Thay have to click and wait 22 days or so while prosperous cooks on their maul. Then repeat it a lot more times.

The difference between that 22 days for prosperous and that original 5 hours for sharpened is that before you go to count prosperous you had 22 days of time to fill doing other stuff. You didn't even have to spend any of that 22 days crafting.

Now, if it was "22 days during which you have to decon another piece of the same type and same trait" than you are talking putting in "extra effort."

When you go to the doctor or DMV and you have to wait for an exceptionally long time way out of proportion to your typical times, do you thank them for giving you such a greater sense of accomplishment when they finally see you?
if they add more staff and advanced scheduling systems and cut wait times down, do you feel slapped in the the face?
Do you feel your driver's lic is suddenly not as good since others now get theirs in half the time?

the key to me is this: if there were a crown path to traits or a change to 1 day trait period, you could still choose to play thru at the old pace. others could choose the faster pace. Everyone could get their own internal preferences met. Since everyone has their own preferences, their own lifestyles and their own demands on time - that seems good to me. more choices fit more people.

But then i dont have any need for "external" influences and having my "preferences" enforced over others.

No but in your previous post you are trying to make it less time consuming. As with the nfl analogy, if we want to make things easier or less time consuming the go ahead and add the extra yards. We wouldn't want anyone to miss out right. Goes back to the whole participation trophy. You yourself added it only takes time, so if you are planning on sticking around what's your hurry? It's all in the backround, you get notices when a trait is finished, go research another piece. I'm sorry but crafting in wood, metal and cloth should take longer than provisioning and alchemy. 4 trait on each reagent and just mix and match to find the right combination. Provisioning you have the recipe. No so with the others.

The thing is for me at least, if you don't want to invest in crafting then don't, same applies to group content, VMA and hard mode dungeons. All can be done in time, but if you can't be bothered to do so that's on each individual player. Same thing as someone who got 10th prestige in World at War, win all races in Forza and other achievements. It took time, and when people started cheezing their way into it, those achievements became lessend. I know first hand, as my son got into a game where I was working on 10th prestige and he found a guy that had the infamous hack disc and when I logged back in found that I had 10th prestige. So yeah I was pissed, I want to earn my stuff, same as crafting I will earn the master crafter status, in time.

Skipping your continued attempt to extend these changes into 5-to-1 nfl yards...

first bold

You yourself just helped my case. yes, the 5 day 11 day 22 day waits are all in the background, depending on add-ons etc you can just forget its even going on for weeks at a time then get notified and come back to it. yes, its no hasle at all as long as you just plan to hang around doing other things and come back later.

As opposed to say the desire to login every day to get deliveries from your crafting hirelings or do your writs or feed your horses/take riding lessons. They create a desire to login and do stuff with that character every day and keep their "activity" something you work towards every day - or are at least rewarded for doing so. those kinds of things keep interest up while as you so clearly point out - long research tends to drive it into background come back sometime later when it dings.

"What;s your hurry?"

Again, the time to reward ratio is important and the time to reward ratio for traits specifically is way way way off base with any other crafting. 5+11+22 = 38 days (iirc) to add traits 7-8-9 (prosperous, training, charged maybe) opens up only the 8 trait sets and 9 trait sets (no 7s i am aware of) and except for TBS (maybe krags) not a lot there by comparison to the lvl 6 and below best sets. That is of course for one piece.

i believe you yourself observed that the change from vet to cp was ok even though it sped things up because the prior system was crap.

Ok well, by comparison to the other crafting in terms of time to acquire vs gains rewarded for acquiring - traits 7-8-9 time to acquire PER PIECE is also every bit as crap-tacularly out of whack with what you get and the rest of the game.

last bold - You know there is just nothing to be said to someone who has some innate knowledge of what "should" take longer - alchemy research into learning usable poisons and potion combinations or learning how to make mauls that beat more gold out of mammoths than normal mauls do.

i certainly cannot refute your knowledge of such subjects.

All i can do is to base things on how they play in game, how they compare to other elements in the game in terms of playability, investment-v-reward etc and the other such comparable elements.

You go on to say " if you don't want to invest in crafting then dont" which i find to be odd.

the same could have been said about advancing to vet levels when that system was as crappy as some think it was. But those who thought that was crappy saw a change which did indeed speed it up - actually eliminated it for many alts. it made the game advancement more playable and more available to many who love to have alts.

The key part is wanting to invest in crafting is fine but the 7-8-9 trait ratios are so far out of whack with all the other time-reward ratios in the game its obviously not right from any objective analysis.

And the fact is - the changes i suggest - reduction to 1 day per trait per item and crown store trait-item tokens - still allow you to continue your old-school ways. you and anyone else who finds 5day 11day 22day more fulfilling can just wait the extra time. But what it does is let others who have different ideas/demands/preferences than you choose different paths to get to the same place.

Even though i dont share anyone's belief that weeks of waiting makes crafting better and see hard objective comparisons of time-reward mismatches to show why its bad, I have no intention to force them to craft more quickly. they will have the option just like everyone else to progress more rapidly - 1 day 1 trait-item depending on skill points or crown buys - but they can choose the tantric crafting playstyle.

I just dont understand those who insist on making others play the way "they think you should."

NOTE: its been a long time since i leveled traits for a character to the 7-8-9 ranges for a character - so i hope my 5-11-22 day counts for the last three traits is accurate. (this does highlight another aspect of the bad results - i have multiple master enchanters, multiple master provisioners but i only have one master clothier (blacksmither, woodwooker0 which has master all the traits. there is some incentive to make alts that level up the equip craftings - hirelings - but ZERO benefit to having those alts also develop the trait list over months. The quicker enchanting and provisioning - worth it to level up the alts, learn the recipes as they come etc. Equip traiting not very alt friendly at all as far as more than one in any craft.

.

Stopnaggin

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

@Tai-Chi
@Stopnaggin

Put simply, i believe that the following would be good for crafting (equip):
1 - reduce trait research to 1 day max per trait or even make it a flat one day = one trait time frame from first trait to last trait (keep the same 3 traits skills max thingy)
2 - Allow trait lessons in craft store to allow you to buy a given trait for a given weapon/piece. possibly charge less for prosperous, charged, training - non-end game traits. heck, even if it excluded the BiS conmtender traits like sharp, precise, nirn and a few others, thats fine too.

None of these would make me feel my crafter's anvil isn't as hard as it used to be or that my crafter's needle isn't as long as it once was.

To the points you raised...

First off, my equip crafters finished their advancement long ago. So i literally have nothing to gain and no axe to grind here on the subject. just like i have characters who made the trek to vr16 the old way and characters who got the promotion when vet level went away and cp=lvl became account wide, i am very aware of the differences between slow and steady and quickie.

Second, while "crafting" has an impact on gameplay in that it allows you to create gear, advancing the speed with which you gain crafting does not. it makes not one point of difference in any fight whether the enemy got his gear by months of crafting research, buying quickie from crown store, or weeks of crafting research (my 1 day trait max) or with instant gratification from guild vendors. The end result is the same, all that is being made different is how long it takes to get to the point and that can vary an awful lot just by available playtime. So, sorry i dont see this as any more a "game impact" vs "convenience" than say horse skills or vampire/werewolf lines. The destination in game remains identical, just the road taken to get there. To specific reference the @sigtric #10, nobody is asking for "if i buy crown crafting its getting me better gear than if i just do crafting the old way" - only the route one takes to get to the exact same impact on gameplay include a crown store option as well as the long road. (or in my case, trait times reduced.)

How you get to a or b is convenience, not impact. What you can do once you get to A or b is impact and nobody is asking for crowing boost there.


Third, my face remained slap free for all my rank 60 horse chars when they started putting horse lessons in the crown store even though i had characters who had "spent the time" or "put in the effort" .
My face also remained slap free when they made the leapfrog vet levels 1-15 to go straight to cp160, even though i had four maybe five who had done the trek to vet16 the old way, "put in the effort" so to speak.
It would remain slap free if they reduce trait time to 1 day max or put "trait learnin'" into crown stores, even though i have full 9 trait crafters maxed etc.
The reason all these are true is that i did all these things for me and for what they allowed my characters to do and that has not changed one bit. For me it isn't any kind of "i can craft TBS and you cannot" sense of superiority thing, just a simple "can i do this or not."

Fourth, I am one of the most vocal proponents for equip crafting needing a serious improvement in the wake of 1T. My posts are numerous and my sig contains a list of changes i think need to be made. What i dont get is the notion that somehow you can link "making crafting quicker or more convenient in crown store or by reducing the trait time to max 1 day to them killing crafting. if anything, making crafting more advancable (get it to maybe not as fast as the consumables but at least not months maybe weeks) will encourage more people to take up crafting, not add nails to the coffins.

Fifth, you missed the point about 1 day vs weeks or month. its not about forgetting. its about getting to be so long it ceases to be of any interest on a daily basis. I literally log in every character every day because of daily deliveries. i literally log-in every character who has horse capacity lessons every day to buy that next inventory slot (or sometimes speed). I literally log-in every character every day who has Db suppliers to get my alchemy stuff. I literally login my writ characters every day ro run writs. (Every day = every day i login at all - obviously some days i cannot login like vacations or hospitals or other commitments.) These things draw me into characters access even if i dont plan to run those that day. Some days i have logged in and done just these. Many other games use the same types of mechanics, daily timers promote logging in to even just click those activities. once they move to weeks or months between access - it ceases to promote any significant increase in access, in activity.

Sixth, its not like those 8th and 9th traits are dealbreakers in power. Sure, TBS requires 9 but Hundings and Julianos are both what six? The bang for buck/time up to six traits is very very very superior to the bang for buck/time for the last three traits. Learn sharpened, precise, nirned, powered, defending and infused and that leaves you with days to weeks each for charged, training and prosperous (is that the ninth?) Does it really make sense to you to spend more time learning trained, prosperous and charged than the other six combined?

Finally to, @Tai-Chi i dont see anything naive about not feeling i have lost something just because someone else gains something similar. This isn't an ego thing for me just a functionality thing and frankly, even with functionality, i recognize in a living game things may change so the "boon" i got one day might get reduced at some later point. (Doesn't mean i wont fight to get it fixed, as i do now for crafting.)

And finally finally to @Stopnaggin we will have to agree to disagree on whether or not in a living breathing game where things change having an achievement you already acquired become acquirable by different roads somehow lessons mine or yours. When the nfl went to 16 game seasons, all those who had achieved 1000 yd rushing in shorter seasons did not suddenly lose the credibility of that achievement. if anything, theirs became MORE SIGNIFICANT, since it was acquired in a shorter time frame. (though one can argue the high value passing mode these days shifts that back some... so as in ESo, ebbs and flows.)


But to be equally clear, i am NOT in favor of allowing any "buy scroll to gain inspirations" kind of cash for "experience in skill line thing" for any skill. (but really, its not the "levels of skill" that slows down equip crafting anywhere near as much as the traits.

No you and I are pretty much on the same page about crafting improvements.

On the nfl side note yes those who held records before 16 game seasons are better recognized for their acomplishments then the newer players, but to draw that comparison to eso is not apples to apples. The nfl isn't making it easier to gain rushing titles or records, they are not diluting to pool so to speak. And while you may not feel the sting of ZOS making things easier, I can't say I feel the same.

I was there for the Vr system, cp transition. And the reason I have no problems with that is was junk from the start. I also see the need to have a fresh player base to keep the game alive. I don't believe they need to shorten everything for the sake of bringing in people, who more than likely won't stay. I have watched Zos cave on several fronts to appease the casual base, and some I agree with, others not so much. To me if there is no journey and I can get instant gratification what's the point. I will have played myself out before I ever got started. The game as most mmos is a grind. I can't see a 10 year plan if they make it too easy to "end game".

uhh adding two more games to the season made it easier to gain 1000 yds in a season - you had two more games to do it in.
runners whp previously only made 900yds could not make 1000 yds with the exact same effort per game that failed to get them 1000 before.

But, in fact, the main difference is it is an actual accomplishment in the NFl.

For crafting in ESo, we are literally talking about "running out the clock." trait research is logging in an clicking a few things and then waiting for a calendar/clock to run down. Its not like beating vmsa or vmol which at least have some degree of difficulty.

What you are so literally wrapping your "slap in the face" diminishing your achievement ego around is you have spent more time (offline out of game or online in game) than the other guy.

Now if that works for you, great, but there is no way that a month wait for a trait research promotes more interest in crafting and less interest in crafting is not good for crafting IMO.

Would you be Ok if you got an extra "participation trophy" achievement added when they reduce it - for you and everyone else already with the maxed when the change hits? that way you even get something the new guys cannot have... unless they too grind it out old school.

is this really about the "face slap" or keeping more folks out of crafting?

Ok so you suggest, on your analogy, lets make every yard gained 5 yards, seems fair right. That way you know the other running backs in the league wouldn't have to work as hard. That way they can all have their participation trophy.

And yeah it should be something certain people are interested in, if you want to craft take the time to do it. It's not for everyone, and the whole make my life easier crowds are the ones yelling the loudest. If the game becomes so easy it will die sooner rather than later. Most people, us non passive aggressive types, will move on to something that offers a challange, then you will have the players that want life easy move on to the next easy game.

Since 1t I have seen more people crying about changes to make the game easier, why? This isn't a Lego game. It's supposed to be an MMO RPG yes? Supposed to put in some kind of effort yes? Nope let's make everything so easy to accommodate the loudest people in the room. Hard to belive I know, but some of us actually enjoy the fact that we put in such effort, no actually stuck it out to finish. While it may not mean anything to you it does to others. But to tell the truth all this want everything easy crowd is getting rather tiresome.

First, no i did not suggest the nfl make 1 yd = 5 yds. i merely pointed out that the longer season easier to reach 1000 yds per season mark actually made having gotten it the old way MORE prestigious not less.

And, i have to say, this "make it easy" vs "make it hard" logic is utter crap.

This isn't a nerf maelstrom thread or tone down world bosses thread.

hate to tell you this but the only "effort" required to get all traits mastered is living IRL long enough to do it.
Its not "effort". its not "hard" it just has a unique timing factor that is out of proportion to gains and out of proportion to other crafting in the game.

Someone doesn't have to solo VMSA in skivies to get from 8 to 9 traits. Thay have to click and wait 22 days or so while prosperous cooks on their maul. Then repeat it a lot more times.

The difference between that 22 days for prosperous and that original 5 hours for sharpened is that before you go to count prosperous you had 22 days of time to fill doing other stuff. You didn't even have to spend any of that 22 days crafting.

Now, if it was "22 days during which you have to decon another piece of the same type and same trait" than you are talking putting in "extra effort."

When you go to the doctor or DMV and you have to wait for an exceptionally long time way out of proportion to your typical times, do you thank them for giving you such a greater sense of accomplishment when they finally see you?
if they add more staff and advanced scheduling systems and cut wait times down, do you feel slapped in the the face?
Do you feel your driver's lic is suddenly not as good since others now get theirs in half the time?

the key to me is this: if there were a crown path to traits or a change to 1 day trait period, you could still choose to play thru at the old pace. others could choose the faster pace. Everyone could get their own internal preferences met. Since everyone has their own preferences, their own lifestyles and their own demands on time - that seems good to me. more choices fit more people.

But then i dont have any need for "external" influences and having my "preferences" enforced over others.

No but in your previous post you are trying to make it less time consuming. As with the nfl analogy, if we want to make things easier or less time consuming the go ahead and add the extra yards. We wouldn't want anyone to miss out right. Goes back to the whole participation trophy. You yourself added it only takes time, so if you are planning on sticking around what's your hurry? It's all in the backround, you get notices when a trait is finished, go research another piece. I'm sorry but crafting in wood, metal and cloth should take longer than provisioning and alchemy. 4 trait on each reagent and just mix and match to find the right combination. Provisioning you have the recipe. No so with the others.

The thing is for me at least, if you don't want to invest in crafting then don't, same applies to group content, VMA and hard mode dungeons. All can be done in time, but if you can't be bothered to do so that's on each individual player. Same thing as someone who got 10th prestige in World at War, win all races in Forza and other achievements. It took time, and when people started cheezing their way into it, those achievements became lessend. I know first hand, as my son got into a game where I was working on 10th prestige and he found a guy that had the infamous hack disc and when I logged back in found that I had 10th prestige. So yeah I was pissed, I want to earn my stuff, same as crafting I will earn the master crafter status, in time.

Skipping your continued attempt to extend these changes into 5-to-1 nfl yards...

first bold

You yourself just helped my case. yes, the 5 day 11 day 22 day waits are all in the background, depending on add-ons etc you can just forget its even going on for weeks at a time then get notified and come back to it. yes, its no hasle at all as long as you just plan to hang around doing other things and come back later.

As opposed to say the desire to login every day to get deliveries from your crafting hirelings or do your writs or feed your horses/take riding lessons. They create a desire to login and do stuff with that character every day and keep their "activity" something you work towards every day - or are at least rewarded for doing so. those kinds of things keep interest up while as you so clearly point out - long research tends to drive it into background come back sometime later when it dings.

"What;s your hurry?"

Again, the time to reward ratio is important and the time to reward ratio for traits specifically is way way way off base with any other crafting. 5+11+22 = 38 days (iirc) to add traits 7-8-9 (prosperous, training, charged maybe) opens up only the 8 trait sets and 9 trait sets (no 7s i am aware of) and except for TBS (maybe krags) not a lot there by comparison to the lvl 6 and below best sets. That is of course for one piece.

i believe you yourself observed that the change from vet to cp was ok even though it sped things up because the prior system was crap.

Ok well, by comparison to the other crafting in terms of time to acquire vs gains rewarded for acquiring - traits 7-8-9 time to acquire PER PIECE is also every bit as crap-tacularly out of whack with what you get and the rest of the game.

last bold - You know there is just nothing to be said to someone who has some innate knowledge of what "should" take longer - alchemy research into learning usable poisons and potion combinations or learning how to make mauls that beat more gold out of mammoths than normal mauls do.

i certainly cannot refute your knowledge of such subjects.

All i can do is to base things on how they play in game, how they compare to other elements in the game in terms of playability, investment-v-reward etc and the other such comparable elements.

You go on to say " if you don't want to invest in crafting then dont" which i find to be odd.

the same could have been said about advancing to vet levels when that system was as crappy as some think it was. But those who thought that was crappy saw a change which did indeed speed it up - actually eliminated it for many alts. it made the game advancement more playable and more available to many who love to have alts.

The key part is wanting to invest in crafting is fine but the 7-8-9 trait ratios are so far out of whack with all the other time-reward ratios in the game its obviously not right from any objective analysis.

And the fact is - the changes i suggest - reduction to 1 day per trait per item and crown store trait-item tokens - still allow you to continue your old-school ways. you and anyone else who finds 5day 11day 22day more fulfilling can just wait the extra time. But what it does is let others who have different ideas/demands/preferences than you choose different paths to get to the same place.

Even though i dont share anyone's belief that weeks of waiting makes crafting better and see hard objective comparisons of time-reward mismatches to show why its bad, I have no intention to force them to craft more quickly. they will have the option just like everyone else to progress more rapidly - 1 day 1 trait-item depending on skill points or crown buys - but they can choose the tantric crafting playstyle.

I just dont understand those who insist on making others play the way "they think you should."

NOTE: its been a long time since i leveled traits for a character to the 7-8-9 ranges for a character - so i hope my 5-11-22 day counts for the last three traits is accurate. (this does highlight another aspect of the bad results - i have multiple master enchanters, multiple master provisioners but i only have one master clothier (blacksmither, woodwooker0 which has master all the traits. there is some incentive to make alts that level up the equip craftings - hirelings - but ZERO benefit to having those alts also develop the trait list over months. The quicker enchanting and provisioning - worth it to level up the alts, learn the recipes as they come etc. Equip traiting not very alt friendly at all as far as more than one in any craft.

.

Again, just a different point of view. Max level cp vs Vr different situation, the Vr system was terrible no problems there right? Ok so now we have cp ranks, great I can make a powerful alt, great, right? Now I'm not going to argue the point that crafting takes time. But that is what separates the people whole play long term vs those that will come in get everything and soon become bored. Now crafting in its current state is pretty bad, we can agree on this yes? If they manage to fix it, and crating becomes Lee's of a time sink, say 2 months max, now we have a ton of master crafters in game. Great for some because they don't have to put in the time to get there like the old days right? So what about the other crowd? The ones who had no choice but to take the long road, why did I waste 18 months to craft? Further than that what viability will crafting have if you can just buy it?

See for me it's a good feeling when someone asks for a master crafter, and I can say yes I got you. This is part of the game I find fun, being able to craft whatever, in whatever style. This is why I spent the time and gold in the first place. I find a certain satisfaction being the go to guy in a couple of my guilds. I don't even craft for the gold, although people will usually send tips. I like being the helpful guy, need dps for trials , yeah I got you, wanna run sewers I got you. Need a 9 trait crafter, yeah I got you. So letting people buy crafting lessons is going to take part of that away. Now while some may not find the satisfaction that I do, others do. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, this all an opnion based discussion and that's fine to disagree. My bigger complaint is the sudden influx of people wanting to add eveything behind a paywall. These are the people that want everything now, when does it stop.

Same argument with pvp skills that pve'ers want, same argument for VMA token sytem vs those that have already run 1000 times to get those perfect trait weapons. Some will put in the time and not complain, some will complain when they don't get it on their first try. Hell I've run HM Hel Ra for months still haven't gotten my last ring and sharp dagger. Yet I'm not here crying for it to be put in the crown store, or make it a token drop. When I get them I'll be happy, but I will put in the time and effort to do so and not scream it needs to be faster to aquire.

STEVIL

@Stopnaggin

" So what about the other crowd? The ones who had no choice but to take the long road, why did I waste 18 months to craft? Further than that what viability will crafting have if you can just buy it?"

Unless i am mistaken, you did not waste 18 months learning to craft. You knew what the costs were, you paid them, you got what was promised and have been i presume reaping the benefits ever since and even during (as i observe at six traits the bulk of the gains are already there.) Additionally, if faster crafting trait gains are implemented, you still retain every single thing you gained. So... nothing was wasted, nothing was lost you got exactly what you sought and nothing is being taken away.

Same for me as far as crafting times are concerned.

In fact, or maybe in opinion, it seems we have both "lost" some of what we sought by dint of the current interlude between the 1T uptick to drop sets and our anticipated and hoped for upcoming uptick to equip crafting. So, yeah, right now i am not happy about the state of my investments, but hey, i know things change in a living game so anything i "buy" today with effort or time or gold or whatever may have its value altered tomorrow. (And i really hope crafting equip gets altered with its 1T follow-uptick.)

Someone else getting where i am by a different path does not mean my efforts were wasted.

.
I too enjoy helping others with crafting - i did at six traits and i do now at full nine. That has nothing to do with whether it took me months or days to get there, except that it taking months meant i did not get to help as many people as i could.

That is where we disagree in part it seems - if i see crafting for others as an enjoyable activity i do and as an activity that helps others enjoy the game - then it makes no sense to me to say "and the longer it takes before i can do it and before i can help others have more fun the better it is!"

let me give you a solid concrete example:
While i have crafted quite a few sets for folks, almost always for free (just had one guy send gold upfront and it was 5 gold so it really wasn't worth returning - so i blued the gear for free but technically "got paid") by far the vast majority of "count the pieces crafted" i have done for others were... guess what... crafting pieces so they could decon to level their skills faster or to give them traits to research. Whether it has been glyphs by the scores to make it thru the 30-50 levels or pieces of armor for them to decon at higher levels than they could get (pre-scaling) or even free recipes or crafted items-traits for decon - i have been responsible for helping other crafters advance their rate of advancement in crafting many times.

Let me repeat that: i have been personally responsible for helping other crafters advance their rate of advancement in crafting by a significant margin many times.

i enjoyed doing it, just like i tend to enjoy doing things that help others "get to their fun" as quickly as possible.

So, guess that makes me worse than possible crown store additions cuz i didn't charge them real money - just gave it away - speeding up their advancement and cheapening your accomplishment in the process.

i will have to live with that shame.

i will certainly keep doing this at least until they provide other alternatives that players can use to "get to the fun stuff" quicker so that my assistance is no longer desired as much.

So, i am a free, live action, currently unshaven version of your crown store fast-craft lit boogeyman and have been for over a year.

Should i not be allowed to do this just like they shouldn't allow folks to buy crown-kits for traits cuz it will in your own mind cheapen your accomplishments?

heck, every post about making others go thru the slow grind to max makes me want to just go create another 50 or so 40ish level glyphs and give them away in zone or sell them in 10 forf 1gp stacks in the guild stores.

We do differ you and i, thats for sure.

Stopnaggin

STEVIL wrote: »

@Stopnaggin

" So what about the other crowd? The ones who had no choice but to take the long road, why did I waste 18 months to craft? Further than that what viability will crafting have if you can just buy it?"

Unless i am mistaken, you did not waste 18 months learning to craft. You knew what the costs were, you paid them, you got what was promised and have been i presume reaping the benefits ever since and even during (as i observe at six traits the bulk of the gains are already there.) Additionally, if faster crafting trait gains are implemented, you still retain every single thing you gained. So... nothing was wasted, nothing was lost you got exactly what you sought and nothing is being taken away.

Same for me as far as crafting times are concerned.

In fact, or maybe in opinion, it seems we have both "lost" some of what we sought by dint of the current interlude between the 1T uptick to drop sets and our anticipated and hoped for upcoming uptick to equip crafting. So, yeah, right now i am not happy about the state of my investments, but hey, i know things change in a living game so anything i "buy" today with effort or time or gold or whatever may have its value altered tomorrow. (And i really hope crafting equip gets altered with its 1T follow-uptick.)

Someone else getting where i am by a different path does not mean my efforts were wasted.

.
I too enjoy helping others with crafting - i did at six traits and i do now at full nine. That has nothing to do with whether it took me months or days to get there, except that it taking months meant i did not get to help as many people as i could.

That is where we disagree in part it seems - if i see crafting for others as an enjoyable activity i do and as an activity that helps others enjoy the game - then it makes no sense to me to say "and the longer it takes before i can do it and before i can help others have more fun the better it is!"

let me give you a solid concrete example:
While i have crafted quite a few sets for folks, almost always for free (just had one guy send gold upfront and it was 5 gold so it really wasn't worth returning - so i blued the gear for free but technically "got paid") by far the vast majority of "count the pieces crafted" i have done for others were... guess what... crafting pieces so they could decon to level their skills faster or to give them traits to research. Whether it has been glyphs by the scores to make it thru the 30-50 levels or pieces of armor for them to decon at higher levels than they could get (pre-scaling) or even free recipes or crafted items-traits for decon - i have been responsible for helping other crafters advance their rate of advancement in crafting many times.

Let me repeat that: i have been personally responsible for helping other crafters advance their rate of advancement in crafting by a significant margin many times.

i enjoyed doing it, just like i tend to enjoy doing things that help others "get to their fun" as quickly as possible.

So, guess that makes me worse than possible crown store additions cuz i didn't charge them real money - just gave it away - speeding up their advancement and cheapening your accomplishment in the process.

i will have to live with that shame.

i will certainly keep doing this at least until they provide other alternatives that players can use to "get to the fun stuff" quicker so that my assistance is no longer desired as much.

So, i am a free, live action, currently unshaven version of your crown store fast-craft lit boogeyman and have been for over a year.

Should i not be allowed to do this just like they shouldn't allow folks to buy crown-kits for traits cuz it will in your own mind cheapen your accomplishments?

heck, every post about making others go thru the slow grind to max makes me want to just go create another 50 or so 40ish level glyphs and give them away in zone or sell them in 10 forf 1gp stacks in the guild stores.

We do differ you and i, thats for sure.

I don't mind making gear for people to reaserch, I don't mind helping them level up their skills if that's what they want to do.

What I do mind is that everyone seems to want to get to the destination without the travel. Whats the reward for buying master crafter? How long have you played the game and why? I'm pretty sure if you didn't enjoy crafting you wouldn't have taken the time to level it up. Same goes for anything else they want to sell in the crown store that would shorten an experience in the game? It's a living breathing game, correct so where in that does it mean that things can't be enjoyed over time? If you are going to invest in the game then do that.

And as you stated, to get to the fun part, we'll you do know you don't have to level crafting to get to the fun part. There isn't some required crafting activity to gain a competitive edge, so there isn't much of an argument there. You can choose to just buy your gear or buy gear for there if you so desire. You can craft whatever you want and five it all away as far as I'm concerned.

Taking the time to become a master crafter, at least to me says I saw it through, even if it was all just a time sink. Same thing with eveything else in the game. You get a stormproof title or even better flawless conquerer, took time to get there and should not be diminished by nerfing vMA. How about master angler, another time sink, means absolutely nothing in terms of my game performance but I stuck it out, so hey you know since it's a time sink let's sell a potion or scroll that ups my chance to get the right rare fish.

This whole argument goes back to gotta have it now crowds. What happens when everyone has master crafter, stormproof or any other title in the game? Well it sure as hell doesn't mean the same thing when it can be bought. We get it you're not into titles. Good for you. You don't want to stand out, also good for you. I guess we should adopt the participantion trophy idea here as well. And judging from a lot of the threads in these forum, there are a bunch who are in that crowd.

So yeah we do differ, not arguing that at all. We've butted heads before and will probably continue to do so. But such is life.

STEVIL

Stopnaggin wrote: »

I don't mind making gear for people to reaserch, I don't mind helping them level up their skills if that's what they want to do.

What I do mind is that everyone seems to want to get to the destination without the travel. Whats the reward for buying master crafter? How long have you played the game and why? I'm pretty sure if you didn't enjoy crafting you wouldn't have taken the time to level it up. Same goes for anything else they want to sell in the crown store that would shorten an experience in the game? It's a living breathing game, correct so where in that does it mean that things can't be enjoyed over time? If you are going to invest in the game then do that.

And as you stated, to get to the fun part, we'll you do know you don't have to level crafting to get to the fun part. There isn't some required crafting activity to gain a competitive edge, so there isn't much of an argument there. You can choose to just buy your gear or buy gear for there if you so desire. You can craft whatever you want and five it all away as far as I'm concerned.

Taking the time to become a master crafter, at least to me says I saw it through, even if it was all just a time sink. Same thing with eveything else in the game. You get a stormproof title or even better flawless conquerer, took time to get there and should not be diminished by nerfing vMA. How about master angler, another time sink, means absolutely nothing in terms of my game performance but I stuck it out, so hey you know since it's a time sink let's sell a potion or scroll that ups my chance to get the right rare fish.

This whole argument goes back to gotta have it now crowds. What happens when everyone has master crafter, stormproof or any other title in the game? Well it sure as hell doesn't mean the same thing when it can be bought. We get it you're not into titles. Good for you. You don't want to stand out, also good for you. I guess we should adopt the participantion trophy idea here as well. And judging from a lot of the threads in these forum, there are a bunch who are in that crowd.

So yeah we do differ, not arguing that at all. We've butted heads before and will probably continue to do so. But such is life.

First bold and the paragraph its in:
i pre-ordered and played since the monday after release.
And yes, i enjoy crafting - thats fun for me - but "crafting" and "leveling crafting" are two different things. Very specifically three things i did not like about LEVELING crafting were:
1 - trait research times too long after about six traits - this killed any chance of multiple equip crafters beyond just leveling for hirelings. between the motifs and the traits making alt full crafters is no fun at all and frankly even the first thsat was the worst part.
2 - enchanting leveling beyond 40. just took too long. yeah i think its some faster now. Also, after the first that leveling is made easier by one crafted glyphing for another. But really too slow for the alt to get to main crafter level.
3 - there was a third thing bu i forget - ooops -something maybe about energy.

This is why i offer to help with glyphs and research pieces and such whenever it comes up. i figure if i did not like that time, others might feel the same and its good for me to help someone get to the more fun parts. i enjoy that.

As for why shorten an experience - if there is part of an experience you dont like on a journey its smart to make it a quick as possible, right? Why spend more time in the unfun part?

Second bold and its paragraph - you seem to be separating crafting from the fun part - like i said - i like crafting - i just dont like certain parts of leveling crafting so if i could accelerate thru them i would and i help others do the same. You are right, you dont need to craft at all, so we can both assume folks working to craft want to craft - but that is not the same thing as leveling crafting.

third bold - nobody is talking about making crafting easier - just quicker to level. you keep equating speed/convenience with performance - not the same. Youi dont win VMSA by just waiting long enough.

Fourth bold and paragraph...
While i am sure there are gotta have it now crowds, i see it more as "got a different life" crowds. You find waiting 22 days for prosperous more fulfilling than buying a crown token? great for you and good too. i am fully in support of you being allowed to do that. but for others who want to get it in a day - i think there should be alternative ways as well. I dont think there is any compelling reason in game that 22 days for prosperous makes any sense whatsoever. To me it is clearly off-base with the rest of the game. So, it needs to be brought in line and in a way that leaves you the option of waiting 22 days if you want.

As for titles, let me make one suggestion and ask the following:
Would you be Ok with allowing crown store crafting token for traits if buying anytime ever even one crafting token from crown store means you can never get the master crafter title and that is very clearly spelled out?
Would you be Ok with traits = 1 day if the master crafter achievement read something like "took the old time limits" and the countdown clocks showed "learned" after 1 day and "mastered" after 22 days and if you ever took a learned option you could only get "Learned Crafter" not "Master Crafter" and that is very clearly spelled out?

if your answer is No, not good with that, then it feels like its more about limiting the number of folks who can craft, not how long it takes to achieve the titles.

me, i would be fine with either of these cuz to me its not about my titles and others titles but my play and others play.

Stopnaggin

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

I don't mind making gear for people to reaserch, I don't mind helping them level up their skills if that's what they want to do.

What I do mind is that everyone seems to want to get to the destination without the travel. Whats the reward for buying master crafter? How long have you played the game and why? I'm pretty sure if you didn't enjoy crafting you wouldn't have taken the time to level it up. Same goes for anything else they want to sell in the crown store that would shorten an experience in the game? It's a living breathing game, correct so where in that does it mean that things can't be enjoyed over time? If you are going to invest in the game then do that.

And as you stated, to get to the fun part, we'll you do know you don't have to level crafting to get to the fun part. There isn't some required crafting activity to gain a competitive edge, so there isn't much of an argument there. You can choose to just buy your gear or buy gear for there if you so desire. You can craft whatever you want and five it all away as far as I'm concerned.

Taking the time to become a master crafter, at least to me says I saw it through, even if it was all just a time sink. Same thing with eveything else in the game. You get a stormproof title or even better flawless conquerer, took time to get there and should not be diminished by nerfing vMA. How about master angler, another time sink, means absolutely nothing in terms of my game performance but I stuck it out, so hey you know since it's a time sink let's sell a potion or scroll that ups my chance to get the right rare fish.

This whole argument goes back to gotta have it now crowds. What happens when everyone has master crafter, stormproof or any other title in the game? Well it sure as hell doesn't mean the same thing when it can be bought. We get it you're not into titles. Good for you. You don't want to stand out, also good for you. I guess we should adopt the participantion trophy idea here as well. And judging from a lot of the threads in these forum, there are a bunch who are in that crowd.

So yeah we do differ, not arguing that at all. We've butted heads before and will probably continue to do so. But such is life.

First bold and the paragraph its in:
i pre-ordered and played since the monday after release.
And yes, i enjoy crafting - thats fun for me - but "crafting" and "leveling crafting" are two different things. Very specifically three things i did not like about LEVELING crafting were:
1 - trait research times too long after about six traits - this killed any chance of multiple equip crafters beyond just leveling for hirelings. between the motifs and the traits making alt full crafters is no fun at all and frankly even the first thsat was the worst part.
2 - enchanting leveling beyond 40. just took too long. yeah i think its some faster now. Also, after the first that leveling is made easier by one crafted glyphing for another. But really too slow for the alt to get to main crafter level.
3 - there was a third thing bu i forget - ooops -something maybe about energy.

This is why i offer to help with glyphs and research pieces and such whenever it comes up. i figure if i did not like that time, others might feel the same and its good for me to help someone get to the more fun parts. i enjoy that.

As for why shorten an experience - if there is part of an experience you dont like on a journey its smart to make it a quick as possible, right? Why spend more time in the unfun part?

Second bold and its paragraph - you seem to be separating crafting from the fun part - like i said - i like crafting - i just dont like certain parts of leveling crafting so if i could accelerate thru them i would and i help others do the same. You are right, you dont need to craft at all, so we can both assume folks working to craft want to craft - but that is not the same thing as leveling crafting.

third bold - nobody is talking about making crafting easier - just quicker to level. you keep equating speed/convenience with performance - not the same. Youi dont win VMSA by just waiting long enough.

Fourth bold and paragraph...
While i am sure there are gotta have it now crowds, i see it more as "got a different life" crowds. You find waiting 22 days for prosperous more fulfilling than buying a crown token? great for you and good too. i am fully in support of you being allowed to do that. but for others who want to get it in a day - i think there should be alternative ways as well. I dont think there is any compelling reason in game that 22 days for prosperous makes any sense whatsoever. To me it is clearly off-base with the rest of the game. So, it needs to be brought in line and in a way that leaves you the option of waiting 22 days if you want.

As for titles, let me make one suggestion and ask the following:
Would you be Ok with allowing crown store crafting token for traits if buying anytime ever even one crafting token from crown store means you can never get the master crafter title and that is very clearly spelled out?
Would you be Ok with traits = 1 day if the master crafter achievement read something like "took the old time limits" and the countdown clocks showed "learned" after 1 day and "mastered" after 22 days and if you ever took a learned option you could only get "Learned Crafter" not "Master Crafter" and that is very clearly spelled out?

if your answer is No, not good with that, then it feels like its more about limiting the number of folks who can craft, not how long it takes to achieve the titles.

me, i would be fine with either of these cuz to me its not about my titles and others titles but my play and others play.

I like the titles, ok not so much the titles but the fact that I can say yes master crafter any style. I took my time to learn, if they shorten it so be it, what is max now 28 days. I'd be fine lowering it a bit, but to offer it in cs or reducing times to 1 day max, nope. I and many others have put in more than what it is now, started when you only had level 3 instead of 4, 10% from eso plus. I'm sorry but to lower things to that extent is in fact a disservice to those who have already done thing the long way.

Let me say this instead, I'm not against reduced research times. What I am against is making it almost a worthless profession. To me if you can just buy your way to an achievement, and there would be many who do, it's not the same. Then we have a game where there is even less of a need for crafters, which as you and I both agree crafting is way behind anyway.

In the end I ask a final few questions, why did I spend 18 months researching, months on end farming motifs, tons of gold buying motifs and stockpiling tons of mats? Who would do all of that if they could just buy their way to it? And finally how would that not be insulting to those who have already done it?

helediron

STEVIL wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

...snip...
is this really about the "face slap" or keeping more folks out of crafting?

Crafting being slow, and requiring patience and planning ahead is great. You are heading to wrong direction.

There is no planning ahead required while an 11 day or 22 day timer clicks down that couldn't be done or needed if it were a one day timer.

Nor imo is it patience to go do other things for 22 days - it's just doing other things.

But if patience is such a plus and others want years, let's make patience an actual part of the active play for crafting.

Make crafting an item take the same time it takes to research the traits for the set. So each piece of TBS takes as long to craft as researching the ninth trait did, so what 22 days.

That way everybody praising patience and how it helps crafting for new crafter to show patience can get the warm fuzzy patience brings every time they craft.

Making a powerful crafter account as a whole takes easily a year, so this is just a dumb answer.

Your response is indecipherable. Each crafter with maxed skills and traits is as powerful as any other as far as crafting goes. Having that take a month, a year or maybe decades is irrelevant except to those who believe waiting for crafting to develop much longer than other more impactful crafts do make it somehow "more meaningful" in maybe some tantric sort of thing.

This isnt like pvp ot pve trails/arenas where one might have gold armour set bonuses or trained rotations.

But hey, whatever "powerful" means to you that gets your crafter juices flowing, thats between you and your sheets.

And the answers get even weirder. I think you are just too casual without real knowledge or capability of crafting. Let me ask it this way: can you gear up a whole raid group to top minmaxed gear? I can.

Trait learning time is fine. In fact i am waiting that intrinsic would be added as tenth learn-able trait. There also should be a multi-year crafting champion system as was in some older mmos i've played. Casuals can farm dropsets. Crafting should stay viable end-game and not turned to instant gratification.

STEVIL

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

I don't mind making gear for people to reaserch, I don't mind helping them level up their skills if that's what they want to do.

What I do mind is that everyone seems to want to get to the destination without the travel. Whats the reward for buying master crafter? How long have you played the game and why? I'm pretty sure if you didn't enjoy crafting you wouldn't have taken the time to level it up. Same goes for anything else they want to sell in the crown store that would shorten an experience in the game? It's a living breathing game, correct so where in that does it mean that things can't be enjoyed over time? If you are going to invest in the game then do that.

And as you stated, to get to the fun part, we'll you do know you don't have to level crafting to get to the fun part. There isn't some required crafting activity to gain a competitive edge, so there isn't much of an argument there. You can choose to just buy your gear or buy gear for there if you so desire. You can craft whatever you want and five it all away as far as I'm concerned.

Taking the time to become a master crafter, at least to me says I saw it through, even if it was all just a time sink. Same thing with eveything else in the game. You get a stormproof title or even better flawless conquerer, took time to get there and should not be diminished by nerfing vMA. How about master angler, another time sink, means absolutely nothing in terms of my game performance but I stuck it out, so hey you know since it's a time sink let's sell a potion or scroll that ups my chance to get the right rare fish.

This whole argument goes back to gotta have it now crowds. What happens when everyone has master crafter, stormproof or any other title in the game? Well it sure as hell doesn't mean the same thing when it can be bought. We get it you're not into titles. Good for you. You don't want to stand out, also good for you. I guess we should adopt the participantion trophy idea here as well. And judging from a lot of the threads in these forum, there are a bunch who are in that crowd.

So yeah we do differ, not arguing that at all. We've butted heads before and will probably continue to do so. But such is life.

First bold and the paragraph its in:
i pre-ordered and played since the monday after release.
And yes, i enjoy crafting - thats fun for me - but "crafting" and "leveling crafting" are two different things. Very specifically three things i did not like about LEVELING crafting were:
1 - trait research times too long after about six traits - this killed any chance of multiple equip crafters beyond just leveling for hirelings. between the motifs and the traits making alt full crafters is no fun at all and frankly even the first thsat was the worst part.
2 - enchanting leveling beyond 40. just took too long. yeah i think its some faster now. Also, after the first that leveling is made easier by one crafted glyphing for another. But really too slow for the alt to get to main crafter level.
3 - there was a third thing bu i forget - ooops -something maybe about energy.

This is why i offer to help with glyphs and research pieces and such whenever it comes up. i figure if i did not like that time, others might feel the same and its good for me to help someone get to the more fun parts. i enjoy that.

As for why shorten an experience - if there is part of an experience you dont like on a journey its smart to make it a quick as possible, right? Why spend more time in the unfun part?

Second bold and its paragraph - you seem to be separating crafting from the fun part - like i said - i like crafting - i just dont like certain parts of leveling crafting so if i could accelerate thru them i would and i help others do the same. You are right, you dont need to craft at all, so we can both assume folks working to craft want to craft - but that is not the same thing as leveling crafting.

third bold - nobody is talking about making crafting easier - just quicker to level. you keep equating speed/convenience with performance - not the same. Youi dont win VMSA by just waiting long enough.

Fourth bold and paragraph...
While i am sure there are gotta have it now crowds, i see it more as "got a different life" crowds. You find waiting 22 days for prosperous more fulfilling than buying a crown token? great for you and good too. i am fully in support of you being allowed to do that. but for others who want to get it in a day - i think there should be alternative ways as well. I dont think there is any compelling reason in game that 22 days for prosperous makes any sense whatsoever. To me it is clearly off-base with the rest of the game. So, it needs to be brought in line and in a way that leaves you the option of waiting 22 days if you want.

As for titles, let me make one suggestion and ask the following:
Would you be Ok with allowing crown store crafting token for traits if buying anytime ever even one crafting token from crown store means you can never get the master crafter title and that is very clearly spelled out?
Would you be Ok with traits = 1 day if the master crafter achievement read something like "took the old time limits" and the countdown clocks showed "learned" after 1 day and "mastered" after 22 days and if you ever took a learned option you could only get "Learned Crafter" not "Master Crafter" and that is very clearly spelled out?

if your answer is No, not good with that, then it feels like its more about limiting the number of folks who can craft, not how long it takes to achieve the titles.

me, i would be fine with either of these cuz to me its not about my titles and others titles but my play and others play.

I like the titles, ok not so much the titles but the fact that I can say yes master crafter any style. I took my time to learn, if they shorten it so be it, what is max now 28 days. I'd be fine lowering it a bit, but to offer it in cs or reducing times to 1 day max, nope. I and many others have put in more than what it is now, started when you only had level 3 instead of 4, 10% from eso plus. I'm sorry but to lower things to that extent is in fact a disservice to those who have already done thing the long way.

Let me say this instead, I'm not against reduced research times. What I am against is making it almost a worthless profession. To me if you can just buy your way to an achievement, and there would be many who do, it's not the same. Then we have a game where there is even less of a need for crafters, which as you and I both agree crafting is way behind anyway.

In the end I ask a final few questions, why did I spend 18 months researching, months on end farming motifs, tons of gold buying motifs and stockpiling tons of mats? Who would do all of that if they could just buy their way to it? And finally how would that not be insulting to those who have already done it?

presumably you did it for what it gave you and you have had it for however long you have and are losing nothing due to having others get there by a different path.

Unless, this is about keeping the crafting for gold going, in which case, yeah, having more crafters would be a crimp but when you got into crafting you knew you had no control over the number of competitors.

As for insult, again if you help other folks level up their crafting and are fine with that or fine with me doing it, i cannot see how someone getting there via cs or reduced trait time for prosperous is an insult. I and presumably you have already engaged in practices to help others get there easier than we did. i wasn't insulted by your. if you were insulted by mine -not my problem.

About a decade ago i had the opportunity to travel to colorado and visit pikes peak. On the shuttle train up the mountain the guide told us about the frequent marathon bike ride up the mountain to the 14000 ft peak. We even saw one rider. We saw more cars of course. my bet is neither the rider or the event riders or the true hardcore runners get upset that people take the train or drive up and still get to buy from the gift shop or eat the chili dogs they serve in the gift shop. they did something few CAN DO not just something few will take the time to do. others who dont but get the same chili dogs - likely never hear one gripe over it.

You talk about the "now crowd" a lot.
me, on occasion, i get irked by the perpetually insulted crowd who manage to find some way to take offense at something others do that doesn't directly impact them. one of the things i accept in an MMO is not everyone has the same situation, not everyone has the same preferences, not everyone has the same options and so not everyone can do or be forced to do everything the way i do. there need to be options - different routes and different paths for everything.

So my answer to the "hoew can you not be insulted" is "just dont. just accept that what you did is a comment on you and what others do is a comment on them and that is all there is to it." if you choose to get insulted by what someone else does for their character that doesn't deal directly with you - whether it be shorter crafting, pve quest choices or whatever - you are missing a primary rule of MMOs - other people characters can do things you wouldn't.

But what you kind of keep not addressing is the solid, mechanical game-based and game-play based point i keep coming back to.

When i compare the crafting benefits for gaining traits, gaining the 7-8-9 (charged, prosperous, training) vs the first six (sharpened, powered, infused, defending, precise, nirned) i see a gross imbalance in time vs impact. When i compare the time for those last three traits to getting enchanting or alchemy or provisioning leveled and functional, i see anoither gross imbalance in time-v-impact. (this is even ignoring the 1T drop set interlude we are in.)

So, do you just not feel time-v-impact or effort-v-worth if you prefer is a valid metric for game design, game content, game analysis or do you find those last three traits to be so much heads and shoulder above the first six that it makes the time worthwhile?

ignoring your personal feelings and insight about how much time it should take to pound a maul into shape so it knocks more gold teeth out of lamias when it kills them can you honestly say the time-to-gain ratio for traits 7-8-9 is on par with traits 1-6 (assuming intelligent planned trait choices getting the best first) or the time-v-gains from consumable crafting?

i mean sure the few 8-9 trait sets are good, some at least, but julianos and hundings and some of the others are too at six, and yeah clever alch at 7 is good too but then 8-9 take even longer.right?

STEVIL

As an aside, in what frame of reference does taking longer to figure something out take longer the more you know on the subject?

if you have never picked up a sword in eso, it takes what, 5 hours, to learn to craft one with precise.

if you have been crafting swords for a long time and know them in and out and have already figured out six different trait "recipes" it takes days (or whatever longer) to figure out precise even if you never see a 7 trait craft station.

it makes more sense, internally, to have trait research either stay the same or get shorter, not grossly longer, the more you know about crafting a given item.

to my warped sense of reason, at least.

Stopnaggin

STEVIL wrote: »

As an aside, in what frame of reference does taking longer to figure something out take longer the more you know on the subject?

if you have never picked up a sword in eso, it takes what, 5 hours, to learn to craft one with precise.

if you have been crafting swords for a long time and know them in and out and have already figured out six different trait "recipes" it takes days (or whatever longer) to figure out precise even if you never see a 7 trait craft station.

it makes more sense, internally, to have trait research either stay the same or get shorter, not grossly longer, the more you know about crafting a given item.

to my warped sense of reason, at least.

Well I guess that depend. Can I learn to sharpen a sword in a few hours, sure. Could I learn to balance that same sword, well that may take longer. Now if you want to shorten the time I'm not against dropping traits off of certain items, like prosperous and or defending. As those are really of no use on an offensive piece. Charged also comes to mind.

Side note, I wonder how long it took Japanese master sword maker to learn how to make a Samural sword? Any thoughts?

STEVIL

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

As an aside, in what frame of reference does taking longer to figure something out take longer the more you know on the subject?

if you have never picked up a sword in eso, it takes what, 5 hours, to learn to craft one with precise.

if you have been crafting swords for a long time and know them in and out and have already figured out six different trait "recipes" it takes days (or whatever longer) to figure out precise even if you never see a 7 trait craft station.

it makes more sense, internally, to have trait research either stay the same or get shorter, not grossly longer, the more you know about crafting a given item.

to my warped sense of reason, at least.

Well I guess that depend. Can I learn to sharpen a sword in a few hours, sure. Could I learn to balance that same sword, well that may take longer. Now if you want to shorten the time I'm not against dropping traits off of certain items, like prosperous and or defending. As those are really of no use on an offensive piece. Charged also comes to mind.

Side note, I wonder how long it took Japanese master swordsman to learn how to make a Samural sword? Any thoughts?

Months depending on quality... but i bet it didn't take longer to learn how to do a given part of the sword if he knew more anout it than if he didn't which is the point you missed or evaded.

Stopnaggin

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

As an aside, in what frame of reference does taking longer to figure something out take longer the more you know on the subject?

if you have never picked up a sword in eso, it takes what, 5 hours, to learn to craft one with precise.

if you have been crafting swords for a long time and know them in and out and have already figured out six different trait "recipes" it takes days (or whatever longer) to figure out precise even if you never see a 7 trait craft station.

it makes more sense, internally, to have trait research either stay the same or get shorter, not grossly longer, the more you know about crafting a given item.

to my warped sense of reason, at least.

Well I guess that depend. Can I learn to sharpen a sword in a few hours, sure. Could I learn to balance that same sword, well that may take longer. Now if you want to shorten the time I'm not against dropping traits off of certain items, like prosperous and or defending. As those are really of no use on an offensive piece. Charged also comes to mind.

Side note, I wonder how long it took Japanese master swordsman to learn how to make a Samural sword? Any thoughts?

Months depending on quality... but i bet it didn't take longer to learn how to do a given part of the sword if he knew more anout it than if he didn't which is the point you missed or evaded.

Oh no there was no evasion or missed points at all. It actually took years to learn a craft like that. It wasn't simply melting metal and shaping it. It was knowing what to mix with it, how to fold it to strengthen it, balance of the blade to the handle. Eveything had to be learned at pace. They didn't just plop down some metal and figure it out. Wonder why hand crafted goods cost more than mass produced, because it takes time, not just to craft it but to learn all there is to know about that craft.

Real life example, I am a mechanic by trade, spent years learning the in and outs, what makes engines run, electrical system, network communication, a/c systems, brakes, steering and suspension. Sure I could have gone to a technical school, but wanna know a secret, those guys couldn't fix a sandwich when they first come out. So while it's one to have the knowledge it's a completely different matter when it comes down to the actual hands on part. Now while I do realize this is just a game and has no bearing on my real life, this was just an example of how it doesn't always equate the knowledge with time, ie ac has nothing in common with a driveability concern, other than nuts and bolts.

STEVIL

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

As an aside, in what frame of reference does taking longer to figure something out take longer the more you know on the subject?

if you have never picked up a sword in eso, it takes what, 5 hours, to learn to craft one with precise.

if you have been crafting swords for a long time and know them in and out and have already figured out six different trait "recipes" it takes days (or whatever longer) to figure out precise even if you never see a 7 trait craft station.

it makes more sense, internally, to have trait research either stay the same or get shorter, not grossly longer, the more you know about crafting a given item.

to my warped sense of reason, at least.

Well I guess that depend. Can I learn to sharpen a sword in a few hours, sure. Could I learn to balance that same sword, well that may take longer. Now if you want to shorten the time I'm not against dropping traits off of certain items, like prosperous and or defending. As those are really of no use on an offensive piece. Charged also comes to mind.

Side note, I wonder how long it took Japanese master swordsman to learn how to make a Samural sword? Any thoughts?

Months depending on quality... but i bet it didn't take longer to learn how to do a given part of the sword if he knew more anout it than if he didn't which is the point you missed or evaded.

Oh no there was no evasion or missed points at all. It actually took years to learn a craft like that. It wasn't simply melting metal and shaping it. It was knowing what to mix with it, how to fold it to strengthen it, balance of the blade to the handle. Eveything had to be learned at pace. They didn't just plop down some metal and figure it out. Wonder why hand crafted goods cost more than mass produced, because it takes time, not just to craft it but to learn all there is to know about that craft.

Real life example, I am a mechanic by trade, spent years learning the in and outs, what makes engines run, electrical system, network communication, a/c systems, brakes, steering and suspension. Sure I could have gone to a technical school, but wanna know a secret, those guys couldn't fix a sandwich when they first come out. So while it's one to have the knowledge it's a completely different matter when it comes down to the actual hands on part. Now while I do realize this is just a game and has no bearing on my real life, this was just an example of how it doesn't always equate the knowledge with time, ie ac has nothing in common with a driveability concern, other than nuts and bolts.

Fine, you dont want to answer except with semantics about knowledge vs experience when we are talking about crafting with better experience or better knowledge whatever you want to call the traits thingy.. .no prob.

Happy Holidays.

Stopnaggin

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

As an aside, in what frame of reference does taking longer to figure something out take longer the more you know on the subject?

if you have never picked up a sword in eso, it takes what, 5 hours, to learn to craft one with precise.

if you have been crafting swords for a long time and know them in and out and have already figured out six different trait "recipes" it takes days (or whatever longer) to figure out precise even if you never see a 7 trait craft station.

it makes more sense, internally, to have trait research either stay the same or get shorter, not grossly longer, the more you know about crafting a given item.

to my warped sense of reason, at least.

Well I guess that depend. Can I learn to sharpen a sword in a few hours, sure. Could I learn to balance that same sword, well that may take longer. Now if you want to shorten the time I'm not against dropping traits off of certain items, like prosperous and or defending. As those are really of no use on an offensive piece. Charged also comes to mind.

Side note, I wonder how long it took Japanese master swordsman to learn how to make a Samural sword? Any thoughts?

Months depending on quality... but i bet it didn't take longer to learn how to do a given part of the sword if he knew more anout it than if he didn't which is the point you missed or evaded.

Oh no there was no evasion or missed points at all. It actually took years to learn a craft like that. It wasn't simply melting metal and shaping it. It was knowing what to mix with it, how to fold it to strengthen it, balance of the blade to the handle. Eveything had to be learned at pace. They didn't just plop down some metal and figure it out. Wonder why hand crafted goods cost more than mass produced, because it takes time, not just to craft it but to learn all there is to know about that craft.

Real life example, I am a mechanic by trade, spent years learning the in and outs, what makes engines run, electrical system, network communication, a/c systems, brakes, steering and suspension. Sure I could have gone to a technical school, but wanna know a secret, those guys couldn't fix a sandwich when they first come out. So while it's one to have the knowledge it's a completely different matter when it comes down to the actual hands on part. Now while I do realize this is just a game and has no bearing on my real life, this was just an example of how it doesn't always equate the knowledge with time, ie ac has nothing in common with a driveability concern, other than nuts and bolts.

Fine, you dont want to answer except with semantics about knowledge vs experience when we are talking about crafting with better experience or better knowledge whatever you want to call the traits thingy.. .no prob.

Happy Holidays.

No I answered just fine, experience comes through doing, knowledge is gained from experience. Just because I have the knowledge of sharpening a sword, does not mean mean I have the knowledge of hardening or metallurgy.

Happy holidays to you and yours as well.

STEVIL

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

As an aside, in what frame of reference does taking longer to figure something out take longer the more you know on the subject?

if you have never picked up a sword in eso, it takes what, 5 hours, to learn to craft one with precise.

if you have been crafting swords for a long time and know them in and out and have already figured out six different trait "recipes" it takes days (or whatever longer) to figure out precise even if you never see a 7 trait craft station.

it makes more sense, internally, to have trait research either stay the same or get shorter, not grossly longer, the more you know about crafting a given item.

to my warped sense of reason, at least.

Well I guess that depend. Can I learn to sharpen a sword in a few hours, sure. Could I learn to balance that same sword, well that may take longer. Now if you want to shorten the time I'm not against dropping traits off of certain items, like prosperous and or defending. As those are really of no use on an offensive piece. Charged also comes to mind.

Side note, I wonder how long it took Japanese master swordsman to learn how to make a Samural sword? Any thoughts?

Months depending on quality... but i bet it didn't take longer to learn how to do a given part of the sword if he knew more anout it than if he didn't which is the point you missed or evaded.

Oh no there was no evasion or missed points at all. It actually took years to learn a craft like that. It wasn't simply melting metal and shaping it. It was knowing what to mix with it, how to fold it to strengthen it, balance of the blade to the handle. Eveything had to be learned at pace. They didn't just plop down some metal and figure it out. Wonder why hand crafted goods cost more than mass produced, because it takes time, not just to craft it but to learn all there is to know about that craft.

Real life example, I am a mechanic by trade, spent years learning the in and outs, what makes engines run, electrical system, network communication, a/c systems, brakes, steering and suspension. Sure I could have gone to a technical school, but wanna know a secret, those guys couldn't fix a sandwich when they first come out. So while it's one to have the knowledge it's a completely different matter when it comes down to the actual hands on part. Now while I do realize this is just a game and has no bearing on my real life, this was just an example of how it doesn't always equate the knowledge with time, ie ac has nothing in common with a driveability concern, other than nuts and bolts.

Fine, you dont want to answer except with semantics about knowledge vs experience when we are talking about crafting with better experience or better knowledge whatever you want to call the traits thingy.. .no prob.

Happy Holidays.

No I answered just fine, experience comes through doing, knowledge is gained from experience. Just because I have the knowledge of sharpening a sword, does not mean mean I have the knowledge of hardening or metallurgy.

Happy holidays to you and yours as well.

But by that reasoning there should not be a link then between knowing/experiencing how to add sharpening already meaning it takes longer to learn/experience to add precise - etc etc etc particularly when one looks at the higher end time frame vs the lower end.

look, last gasp here.

I agree that IRL the issue of how people learn is a very complex subject not at all simple and linear and where you may want to anecdotally divide things into your views of knowledge vs learning vs experience - there are entire disciplines and tarabytes of data studies and analysis on the interactions of experience vs study vs experience that show it is a very complex thing - IRL -not a simple linear thing.

Now, howwver, when talking about how things work in this game right now we have in a system i consider seriously flawed based on time-v-gains a direct link between "number of traits your crafter knows how to do already" and "time to learn a new how to add trait to a piece."

There is currently an established link between those two.

That link is "the more you already know, the longer it will take to learn a new one"

This produces in fact longer times to get the last three traits than the first six traits and is not tied to the impact or value of those traits at all and frankly the value of the sets unlocked by 7-8-9 isn't at all significantly higher than the ones unlocked by six to make up that measure.

So, my position is simple: i think the time per trait learning should be at best a set fixed value - 1 day per trait is my suggestion.
Alternatively, if the desire to keep a link between "number traits known already" and "time to add new trait" exists, it should work in reverse, so that the more knowledge you have at "learning how to add traits" makes the process of "learning how to add traits" go faster.

HINT: this is not about how long it takes to craft a sword, even though you want to keep throwing those in. its takes a few clicks to craft a sword in this game no matter how long it takes a crafter in ancient japan to make one. You seem fine with that divorcing from reality.

But this is clearly a pointless exercize.

jlboozer

No....that's what we like to call pay to win, this isn't CoD (thankfully)!!

Stopnaggin

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

As an aside, in what frame of reference does taking longer to figure something out take longer the more you know on the subject?

if you have never picked up a sword in eso, it takes what, 5 hours, to learn to craft one with precise.

if you have been crafting swords for a long time and know them in and out and have already figured out six different trait "recipes" it takes days (or whatever longer) to figure out precise even if you never see a 7 trait craft station.

it makes more sense, internally, to have trait research either stay the same or get shorter, not grossly longer, the more you know about crafting a given item.

to my warped sense of reason, at least.

Well I guess that depend. Can I learn to sharpen a sword in a few hours, sure. Could I learn to balance that same sword, well that may take longer. Now if you want to shorten the time I'm not against dropping traits off of certain items, like prosperous and or defending. As those are really of no use on an offensive piece. Charged also comes to mind.

Side note, I wonder how long it took Japanese master swordsman to learn how to make a Samural sword? Any thoughts?

Months depending on quality... but i bet it didn't take longer to learn how to do a given part of the sword if he knew more anout it than if he didn't which is the point you missed or evaded.

Oh no there was no evasion or missed points at all. It actually took years to learn a craft like that. It wasn't simply melting metal and shaping it. It was knowing what to mix with it, how to fold it to strengthen it, balance of the blade to the handle. Eveything had to be learned at pace. They didn't just plop down some metal and figure it out. Wonder why hand crafted goods cost more than mass produced, because it takes time, not just to craft it but to learn all there is to know about that craft.

Real life example, I am a mechanic by trade, spent years learning the in and outs, what makes engines run, electrical system, network communication, a/c systems, brakes, steering and suspension. Sure I could have gone to a technical school, but wanna know a secret, those guys couldn't fix a sandwich when they first come out. So while it's one to have the knowledge it's a completely different matter when it comes down to the actual hands on part. Now while I do realize this is just a game and has no bearing on my real life, this was just an example of how it doesn't always equate the knowledge with time, ie ac has nothing in common with a driveability concern, other than nuts and bolts.

Fine, you dont want to answer except with semantics about knowledge vs experience when we are talking about crafting with better experience or better knowledge whatever you want to call the traits thingy.. .no prob.

Happy Holidays.

No I answered just fine, experience comes through doing, knowledge is gained from experience. Just because I have the knowledge of sharpening a sword, does not mean mean I have the knowledge of hardening or metallurgy.

Happy holidays to you and yours as well.

But by that reasoning there should not be a link then between knowing/experiencing how to add sharpening already meaning it takes longer to learn/experience to add precise - etc etc etc particularly when one looks at the higher end time frame vs the lower end.

look, last gasp here.

I agree that IRL the issue of how people learn is a very complex subject not at all simple and linear and where you may want to anecdotally divide things into your views of knowledge vs learning vs experience - there are entire disciplines and tarabytes of data studies and analysis on the interactions of experience vs study vs experience that show it is a very complex thing - IRL -not a simple linear thing.

Now, howwver, when talking about how things work in this game right now we have in a system i consider seriously flawed based on time-v-gains a direct link between "number of traits your crafter knows how to do already" and "time to learn a new how to add trait to a piece."

There is currently an established link between those two.

That link is "the more you already know, the longer it will take to learn a new one"

This produces in fact longer times to get the last three traits than the first six traits and is not tied to the impact or value of those traits at all and frankly the value of the sets unlocked by 7-8-9 isn't at all significantly higher than the ones unlocked by six to make up that measure.

So, my position is simple: i think the time per trait learning should be at best a set fixed value - 1 day per trait is my suggestion.
Alternatively, if the desire to keep a link between "number traits known already" and "time to add new trait" exists, it should work in reverse, so that the more knowledge you have at "learning how to add traits" makes the process of "learning how to add traits" go faster.

HINT: this is not about how long it takes to craft a sword, even though you want to keep throwing those in. its takes a few clicks to craft a sword in this game no matter how long it takes a crafter in ancient japan to make one. You seem fine with that divorcing from reality.

But this is clearly a pointless exercize.

No clearly understand what you are getting at. So fine let's lower the number of days to research, all good right? But instead make it 15 days max for the first trait, and go lower from there. 15, 8, 4, 2, 1, .5, .25, .15, .05. As this address your thinking, correct? The more you learn the less time to learn something new. Now in this scenario it would take just above 30 days for 1 complete line, correct? Now with all passives 3 research items at a time it would be half the time as it stands now. Make it so they can research 4 at a time, further lowering the time frame. Removing useless traits would further this even more, correct?

I'm not completely against reduced times but to go from what we have today to 1 day max is too far. Again removing traits that are essentially useless, prosperous, training and charged, wouldn't hurt my feelings either. And I'm still a no on anything like this in the crown store. If added to the crown store and, big if here, if they fix crafting there is a direct correlation towards p2w.

Edited to add

Training on gear is easily replaced by ambrosia and exp scrolls so it is redundant. Prosperous is absolutely useless the gain is minimal, and charged serves no purpose that couldn't be added to infused.

STEVIL

Again, my preference is to lock in daily traits.

Also, to be clear this could also means ditching the faster research passive to be replaced w something else. I dislike passive you grow out of.

Stopnaggin

STEVIL wrote: »

Again, my preference is to lock in daily traits.

Also, to be clear this could also means ditching the faster research passive to be replaced w something else. I dislike passive you grow out of.

Well you get a respec scroll or go to the town and change those when your done.

STEVIL

Stopnaggin wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Again, my preference is to lock in daily traits.

Also, to be clear this could also means ditching the faster research passive to be replaced w something else. I dislike passive you grow out of.

Well you get a respec scroll or go to the town and change those when your done.

Absolutely suddenly forget cuz skill becomes useless.

WardogAce

Stopnaggin wrote: »

As I've stated before, just no. They have reduced the times already. Why should those few master crafters be diminished even further? 18 months of research, tons of farming motifs, or tons of gold buying motifs. Everything does not need to come easy in the game.

I've spent, no invested, 2 years + in this game. I've watched it go to the casual crowd. While inviting new players is a good thing, handing them everything is not the way to go. Maybe MMO'S aren't your type of game. The grind is part of it. I'm proud when I achieve something in this game that takes that kind of commitment. Master crafter is close to being my next one, master angler was awsome. First HM trial clear, all milestones I can look back on and be proud. Seriously just put in the effort, stop asking for everything to be put in crown store or made easier.

Just out of curiosity what and when was the reduction?

Stopnaggin

gkmichelb14a_ESO wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

As I've stated before, just no. They have reduced the times already. Why should those few master crafters be diminished even further? 18 months of research, tons of farming motifs, or tons of gold buying motifs. Everything does not need to come easy in the game.

I've spent, no invested, 2 years + in this game. I've watched it go to the casual crowd. While inviting new players is a good thing, handing them everything is not the way to go. Maybe MMO'S aren't your type of game. The grind is part of it. I'm proud when I achieve something in this game that takes that kind of commitment. Master crafter is close to being my next one, master angler was awsome. First HM trial clear, all milestones I can look back on and be proud. Seriously just put in the effort, stop asking for everything to be put in crown store or made easier.

Just out of curiosity what and when was the reduction?

They added a 4th slot under metallurgy, stitching and carpentry reducing times up to 25% and also maxed research times to at most 30 days, also allowing the research of 3 traits at one time. Also an added 10% if you are an eso plus sub.

If you no passives it would run almost 78 day to research all 9 traits on 1 piece. In total before adding the 4th rank and research 3 item it would have take somewhere in the neighborhood of 892 days to master all crafting. Even after all passives wereally gained before when it was rank 3 in each profession it was along the lines of a 20% reduction but was not capped at 30 days, which translated into something like 52 days max for the final trait. There were also only 8 traits in the beginning if I am remembering correctly.
The original breakdown was
6, 12, 24, 48, 96, 192, 384, 768 = 1,530 hours = 63.75 days per weapon or armor piece to completely research every trait.

So with the above in blacksmithing and clothing both having 14 items, 7 light 7 medium, and 7 heavy 7 weapons. No passives would result in 892.5 days to fully research. With passives invested it would have been a 20% reduction in time and 3 per skill, leaving you with 238 days.

nraner81

yea yea yea!!!! put it in crown store!!!!
Also put:
Vigor
caltrops
VMA weapons
VDSA weapons
gold alkosh rings
gold tr rings
all those skins that are earned
an "I win button" for those that have trouble with Vwgt
gold VO rings if vhrc is 2 hard for you.
how about all raw mats so you don't have to farm and raw so you can upgrade.
master angler achievement since that's tough.
im sure theres more we NEED to add right stevil?

STEVIL

nraner81 wrote: »

yea yea yea!!!! put it in crown store!!!!
Also put:
Vigor
caltrops
VMA weapons
VDSA weapons
gold alkosh rings
gold tr rings
all those skins that are earned
an "I win button" for those that have trouble with Vwgt
gold VO rings if vhrc is 2 hard for you.
how about all raw mats so you don't have to farm and raw so you can upgrade.
master angler achievement since that's tough.
im sure theres more we NEED to add right stevil?

Thats so very clever. Really impressive.

I am in awe.

Since you seem to have missed it:
I explained the difference between things "earned" by accomplishment and things acquired by time and pointed out that like with horse skills the crafting time/trait thing is a reduced time convenience thing - fitting the crown store norm. Different from say vmsa drops.
I mentioned why it looks like current trait times seem way too high based on gains for time compared to other similar game elements and so making changes to reduce or normalize the times to match the relative gains is an improvement.

But yeah, from those positions and others i can see how you could get to adding i win buttons. Yup, its obvious.

Iluvrien

STEVIL wrote: »

Since you seem to have missed it:
I explained the difference between things "earned" by accomplishment and things acquired by time and pointed out that like with horse skills the crafting time/trait thing is a reduced time convenience thing - fitting the crown store norm. Different from say vmsa drops.
I mentioned why it looks like current trait times seem way too high based on gains for time compared to other similar game elements and so making changes to reduce or normalize the times to match the relative gains is an improvement.

But yeah, from those positions and others i can see how you could get to adding i win buttons. Yup, its obvious.

You have made a superb case for trait research to be made more intuitive, more hands-on and more complex... not for the research times to be locked in at 1 day or offered on the crown store.

STEVIL

Iluvrien wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Since you seem to have missed it:
I explained the difference between things "earned" by accomplishment and things acquired by time and pointed out that like with horse skills the crafting time/trait thing is a reduced time convenience thing - fitting the crown store norm. Different from say vmsa drops.
I mentioned why it looks like current trait times seem way too high based on gains for time compared to other similar game elements and so making changes to reduce or normalize the times to match the relative gains is an improvement.

But yeah, from those positions and others i can see how you could get to adding i win buttons. Yup, its obvious.

You have made a superb case for trait research to be made more intuitive, more hands-on and more complex... not for the research times to be locked in at 1 day or offered on the crown store.

Sorry but no.

Intuitive? It's pretty straightforward now.
Hands-on? Huh? Yeah daily rework was mentioned.
More complex?

If you took somehow the points about how far out of whack the time v gains are for equip traits v gains compared to other crafting and somehow conatured that is proof for making it take more to get the traits, your sense of balance is much different from mine.

But why don't we synergies our core competencies and try to enhance our paradigms to arrive at a mutually bi-lateral leveraging of our essential strenghts?

Assuming you do have something more substantial than buzzwords like "intuitive, hands-on, complex and serious ideas and specifics with comparison to support them?

Iluvrien

STEVIL wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Since you seem to have missed it:
I explained the difference between things "earned" by accomplishment and things acquired by time and pointed out that like with horse skills the crafting time/trait thing is a reduced time convenience thing - fitting the crown store norm. Different from say vmsa drops.
I mentioned why it looks like current trait times seem way too high based on gains for time compared to other similar game elements and so making changes to reduce or normalize the times to match the relative gains is an improvement.

But yeah, from those positions and others i can see how you could get to adding i win buttons. Yup, its obvious.

You have made a superb case for trait research to be made more intuitive, more hands-on and more complex... not for the research times to be locked in at 1 day or offered on the crown store.

Sorry but no.

Intuitive? It's pretty straightforward now.
Hands-on? Huh? Yeah daily rework was mentioned.
More complex?

If you took somehow the points about how far out of whack the time v gains are for equip traits v gains compared to other crafting and somehow conatured that is proof for making it take more to get the traits, your sense of balance is much different from mine.

But why don't we synergies our core competencies and try to enhance our paradigms to arrive at a mutually bi-lateral leveraging of our essential strenghts?

Assuming you do have something more substantial than buzzwords like "intuitive, hands-on, complex and serious ideas and specifics with comparison to support them?

"buzzwords"? Try, a basic English interpretation of your own arguments. If anything, I am guilty of attempting to be too concise.

Intuitive - "The more traits you learn, the more time it takes" is not intuitive. You called it out as such. @Stopnaggin suggested reversing the time required to learn each trait to address this... without resorting to the crown-store.

Hands-on - "You click research and then walk away for a month." Again, something you called out. I, and others, have suggested expansions that could be made to the crafting system to address this. If you like, I'll dig out my own posts on the subject for you to read (I suggested a stage-based approach that effectively treated each stage as a mini-quest). Again, without resorting to the crown-store.

Complex - "Crafting requires no skill or persistence." The system is too simple. Especially the trait research system. Others have suggested expansions, as have I. Still no need to resort to the crown store.

You have looked at a system that is shallow, time-consuming and not enjoyable... and chosen the most boring possible way to try and address this.

I do hope that was clear and sufficiently lacking in jargon and buzzwords for you.

STEVIL

Iluvrien wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Since you seem to have missed it:
I explained the difference between things "earned" by accomplishment and things acquired by time and pointed out that like with horse skills the crafting time/trait thing is a reduced time convenience thing - fitting the crown store norm. Different from say vmsa drops.
I mentioned why it looks like current trait times seem way too high based on gains for time compared to other similar game elements and so making changes to reduce or normalize the times to match the relative gains is an improvement.

But yeah, from those positions and others i can see how you could get to adding i win buttons. Yup, its obvious.

You have made a superb case for trait research to be made more intuitive, more hands-on and more complex... not for the research times to be locked in at 1 day or offered on the crown store.

Sorry but no.

Intuitive? It's pretty straightforward now.
Hands-on? Huh? Yeah daily rework was mentioned.
More complex?

If you took somehow the points about how far out of whack the time v gains are for equip traits v gains compared to other crafting and somehow conatured that is proof for making it take more to get the traits, your sense of balance is much different from mine.

But why don't we synergies our core competencies and try to enhance our paradigms to arrive at a mutually bi-lateral leveraging of our essential strenghts?

Assuming you do have something more substantial than buzzwords like "intuitive, hands-on, complex and serious ideas and specifics with comparison to support them?

"buzzwords"? Try, a basic English interpretation of your own arguments. If anything, I am guilty of attempting to be too concise.

Intuitive - "The more traits you learn, the more time it takes" is not intuitive. You called it out as such. @Stopnaggin suggested reversing the time required to learn each trait to address this... without resorting to the crown-store.

Hands-on - "You click research and then walk away for a month." Again, something you called out. I, and others, have suggested expansions that could be made to the crafting system to address this. If you like, I'll dig out my own posts on the subject for you to read (I suggested a stage-based approach that effectively treated each stage as a mini-quest). Again, without resorting to the crown-store.

Complex - "Crafting requires no skill or persistence." The system is too simple. Especially the trait research system. Others have suggested expansions, as have I. Still no need to resort to the crown store.

You have looked at a system that is shallow, time-consuming and not enjoyable... and chosen the most boring possible way to try and address this.

I do hope that was clear and sufficiently lacking in jargon and buzzwords for you.

Good synergy and style there but missing substance.


"You have looked at a system that is shallow, time-consuming and not enjoyable... and chosen the most boring possible way to try and address this."

Let's be clear, jargon aside and words in others mouths aside...

Maybe you find crafting shallow and not enjoyable. I dont.

I find it excessively time consuming in one aspect - trait research.

I use excessive not as a subjective preference but as a comparative.

In comparison with the interest in logging in the multiple other daily gains in this game and others - it fails to create the same interest when it hits week or weeks, even though some feel that long is desirable.

In comparison with the other craft aspect for consumables or even the very useful non-trait functions of equips the what is gained for the time is out of whack - esp considering sensible approaches do the better traits first (training might be an exception)

So, yeah, duh, I did nor elect to come up with a new equip crafting quest system, or add geo-cache real world pokemongo hunts for traits or any other stuff that did not address what I saw as the problem.

It's just not my goal to turn equip crafting into even more elaborate compex Goldberg miasma that leave the out of whack time for gain in place.

Now, if they want to add a new level to crafting, a massive craft-quest dlc thing - great fantastic wonderful.

ADD it. Have it be the crafting side equivalent to vmsa, vmol, trials etc.

Great!!! Would love it.

But don't do a equip crafting takeover to make crafting at the basic nuts and bolts level even more inaccessible and so favor drops farming even more.


Imo.

I got mine.
I want others to have it easier than I did.
Cuz that wasn't to me as fun as it should be for a basic part of the game.

Ymmv

SoberAlias

KUDOS TO: @STEVIL

Now to address all of the HATERS:
@Stopnaggin, @disintegr8, @bryanhaas, @Balibe, @Eocosa, @White wabbit, @Sigtric, @Tai-Chi, @helediron, @Kram8ion, @jlboozer, @nraner81, @Iluvrien, and any one else who disagrees

Out of 7 million ESO Players...just how many do you think are Crafters?...Lets be realistic...its hard to miss on a Character's Skill Bar...so...my guess would be...7 million.

Out of these 7 million Crafters (Masters or Not)...just how many got there without anyone else's help?...Hmmm...this is a bit harder to calculate...because all of the "Master Crafters" don't have a TITLE under their character's name that shouts "Hey I'm a MASTER CRAFTER"...so the 'only' way to brag about it...is to join a Guild and sell their services -OR- be a hero and help someone cheat for free. Oh yeah, I have seen Master Crafters create every item for someone else to research...cutting down on their time frame of having to find it first and then research it.

BTW...if you did just so happen to get there without anyone's help...then congrats on "Your success of deciding to take the long road"...as for ME...I don't have the time to enjoy the ride...I need a path to cut across and get there quicker...without paying or begging a Master Crafter...so "IF" Crafting Lessons are added to the Crown Store...its really no skin off any of your noses...why..."because your already freakin' there."

So...if my posted idea causes you to feel cheated.."Get Over Yourself"...Change is for the better and it has come to a point where "ESO Players need to pull the "IDEA TRIGGERS" first and wait to see what arrives next"...after all...you have the option to keep your money and not have to watch us spend ours.