Should Non-DLC Vet Dungeons (w/Scroll) Be Doable at CR160 in 1T? My Spindleclutch Experience.

Pandorii

Something really embarrassing happened today. I joined a group with a guildie for the Spindleclutch 1 daily on vet and w/scroll.

I've been playing ESO for a while now. By no means am I a pro player, but I know a lot of theory about the game. I started a new account on PC about three weeks ago, and I'm at 170 cp. On PS4, I'm almost 700 CP. Again, I'm not a pro player at all. I mostly PvE, and I don't always run optimized builds. Well I kept dying on the last boss of Spindleclutch 1 with some orb thing that the spider kept throwing at me. It would hit me for 20k damage, even when I'd block. Here's a run down of my build... before I explain it, I know it's not perfect (and never will I ever be a person who aims for perfect builds), but I think it's quite good for somebody who is a new player and SHOULD be able to complete veteran dungeons. After all, they're VETERAN dungeons, not max CP only dungeons.

My DPS(can heal easy stuff also) Magicka Templar has 170 CP. She got like 10 of them doing normal Maelstrom arena today, without deaths, for some skulls. She has all purple gear (5 pieces Julianos, 3 pieces V. Death - which I got because it's cheaper than making torugs pact and also gives spell dmg on the 2 piece - and 1 Molag Kena shoulder in divines - thank the rng gods of that drop). I have all purple enchantments for magicka. 3 Willpower jewelry pieces, one ring is still healthy, because they're costly $.$. I run structured entropy on both bars, though I'd prefer to run it on one, for the extra max health. With all that, my max health is a little bit less than 18,000. I'm running 5-1-1, even though my undaunted is only level 7/9, with the intention of unlocking undaunted mettle quite soon. With my CP I've got 50/50 on elemental defender and hardy, and the last boss of veteran spindleclutch was hitting me solidly for 20k damage, with block.

Sure, I could swap some of my enchants to health. Sure, I could make my medium armor piece also heavy (until I get undaunted level 9). Sure, I could have spent 3k to respec my CP to all in elemental defender (or w/e type of dmg that skill was), but I'm really just starting out. I've got a limit of time, gold, and skill points. I think what I have is quite good for somebody that is CR 170, because I have the experience of having played the game many months on PS4 to know what to focus on.

So why do I get one-shot? Is this really fair? It made me look really amateurish, and I'm already having trouble establishing a good reputation with the guild because of how much low-CP bias there is in this game. Apparently, I might already have a bad reputation as a healer, since I'd run dungeons pre-160 with less than ideal gear and apparently accidentally overnotched normal difficulty dungeons b/c of ZOS's error.

Anyway, I was really REALLY embarrassed! My guildie kept picking me up, and I just kept getting one-shot. I think people really have forgotten how much more effort non-max CP players have to put into running dungeons just so they can hang with the big boys.

Hurt feelings aside, I think that ZOS should revisit the (minimum non-DLC) dungeon's difficulties. If they're not doable by decently geared/decently skilled cr 160 players they're setting up a lot of players for a bad time. I am aware of the damage creep in this game every time they increase the CR cap and introduce overperforming sets. Ohh trust me, I'm aware. They should sacrifice the experience of the newer players just to ensure the maxed out players are being challenged. There should be another way to rectify that difference.

That said, if ZOS does intend to have dungeons that are only 'doable' when you have CP or are perfectly geared, it should be clearly stated to the community, and it should not be eligible to those who are not able to meet those standards on the random dungeon finder. When I first started out, I would get normal Cradle of Shadows and Ruins of Mazzatun (without CP) on dungeon finder, because I had ESO plus. Seriously ZOS... please quality control your content. I'm humiliated from the experience, and it's experience like this that can drive away players.

Rant Ended. Destroy me away forum community. -.-

Mic1007

Yeah, now the jump from Normal to Vet is huge as of One Tamriel. All because they refuse to put in a medium difficulty for lower CP players. And the DLC dungeons get their own category altogether.

Sallington

The problem is people can potato to cp561 without knowing how to play their class.


Last night I joined a PUG for Vet FGII. The leader (with 600 cps) asked for my CP to join the group. He then proceeded to do about 10% damage to all of the bosses while we basically 3-manned it. On the last boss, I did 80% of the dmg on the boss.

If I wasn't putting out 27-30k DPS, we never would have completed the dungeon, and this guy has the balls to check peoples CP before letting them join. I called him out on it, and he said he was tired of getting stuck with low CP people, as if they were the reason his other groups couldn't complete the dungeon.


The difficulty level of Vet dungeons right now is spot on. The problem is that there is no mechanism forcing people to actually learn how to play their classes before they get into them.

timidobserver

Worst case scenario equip harness Magicka.

ZOS_JohanaB

We've moved this to Dungeons, Trials & Arenas

Peekachu99

Vet dungeons were originally quite punishing. If you've been here since the beginning, you would remember. You're not supposed to melt everything in your path in a 10m race to the finish line.

As well, the effects of the new sets that add absurd spell and weapon damage have yet to be fully seen in game, and won't for some time. It would be foolish to do a knee-jerk nerf before we understand how sharply that gear changes the meta.

Mitoice

this is the reason all of my friends left the game with the dungeons and content being waaaayyy too easy.
Dude, learn to play, most veteran dungeons on this game are veeeeery easy,
With the exception of White Gold Tower, City of Ash, Imperial Prison, Craddle of shadow and ruins of mazzatun, if you die constantly on the other veteran dungeons, ITS NOT a CP problem, its a player problem or a strategy issue, ive done the other veteran dungeons with my besf friend who has 70 CP and done it without issue at all.

learn how and when to use roll dodge, shield, block etc,

Dont know why people want ZOS to tone down the difficulty so this becomes a button mashing game. SAD

Pandorii

@Paulington I don't understand. You're saying that the problem is skill? Not that the mechanics are designed to only be survived with a specific build and/or the handicap of CP?

timidobserver wrote: »

Worst case scenario equip harness Magicka.

This is true. I could have stacked my healing ward and magicka harness. But I was at the point where I jumped into a fight without them, and it would take a group wipe to be able to reset my skills. The group didn't wipe. They were all near cap. They just completed the fight without me. That's why I was embarrassed.

Pandorii

ZOS_JohanaB wrote: »

We've moved this to Dungeons, Trials & Arenas

Yes. Yes. Thank you ZOS for being so diligent with hiding exposing threads, while never being diligent about players reporting bugs, exploits, or responding to their feedback. I do think that this thread has some relevance for general discussion, since it ALSO pertains to my 'feeling' of being inadequate as a low-CP player, which many new players and casual players experience in their game-life with ESO.

Pandorii

Mitoice wrote: »

this is the reason all of my friends left the game with the dungeons and content being waaaayyy too easy.
Dude, learn to play, most veteran dungeons on this game are veeeeery easy,
With the exception of White Gold Tower, City of Ash, Imperial Prison, Craddle of shadow and ruins of mazzatun, if you die constantly on the other veteran dungeons, ITS NOT a CP problem, its a player problem or a strategy issue, ive done the other veteran dungeons with my besf friend who has 70 CP and done it without issue at all.

learn how and when to use roll dodge, shield, block etc,

Dont know why people want ZOS to tone down the difficulty so this becomes a button mashing game. SAD

You should actually read you thread before crying 'L2P', but whatever. Others will read it, and they will read your thread and just see move on.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

I disagree. You said vet mode with scroll correct? So you had trouble on some of the games hardest 4 man content on a lower cp character? I sort of think you should. I dont know for sure, but it also sounds like you still got through it?

How did the rest of the dungeon go? I am assuming ok since you didnt mention it. So you had no problem with the vet dungeon. More so the Hard Mode you selected by reading the scroll.

Pandorii

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Vet dungeons were originally quite punishing. If you've been here since the beginning, you would remember. You're not supposed to melt everything in your path in a 10m race to the finish line.

As well, the effects of the new sets that add absurd spell and weapon damage have yet to be fully seen in game, and won't for some time. It would be foolish to do a knee-jerk nerf before we understand how sharply that gear changes the meta.

This is a reasonable response. @Peekachu99 But I do think there's a difference between difficulty and bosses just hitting too hard for non-perfectly geared or high-CP players to survive.

For example, in the old days (pre-Maelstrom Arena), every vet dungeon NEEDED a tank. That was because the DPS or healer would die without the tank taking the big blows. vMA has made it so that the DPS and healers can have survivability, rendering the tank obsolete. Stam players have self-heals, for example.

If there's one message I could send from all of this, it's that decisions about dungeon difficulty balance should not be myopically decided with the end-gamer/max-CP player in mind. It should also consider the new/middle ranged player.

Mic1007 wrote: »

Yeah, now the jump from Normal to Vet is huge as of One Tamriel. All because they refuse to put in a medium difficulty for lower CP players. And the DLC dungeons get their own category altogether.

This is an example of a constructive suggestion and solution.

Mitoice

but if you still dont believe me its not a CP problem, my game user is @Mitoice look me up and we can group together, we can do Vet dungeons together and you can get some practice and i can show you what you are doing wrong so you can get better at this game.

Hope we can do some dungeons together.

timidobserver

Pandorii wrote: »

@Paulington I don't understand. You're saying that the problem is skill? Not that the mechanics are designed to only be survived with a specific build and/or the handicap of CP?

timidobserver wrote: »

Worst case scenario equip harness Magicka.

This is true. I could have stacked my healing ward and magicka harness. But I was at the point where I jumped into a fight without them, and it would take a group wipe to be able to reset my skills. The group didn't wipe. They were all near cap. They just completed the fight without me. That's why I was embarrassed.

1. Just slot harness on your off bar at all times until you are more comfortable with the content.

2. Trying to get their content nerfed isn't going to make them any happier with you. If I were them and I would be more annoyed by this post than your performance. Poor performance can be improved.

Mitoice

Whats your user?

Pandorii

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

I disagree. You said vet mode with scroll correct? So you had trouble on some of the games hardest 4 man content on a lower cp character? I sort of think you should. I dont know for sure, but it also sounds like you still got through it?

How did the rest of the dungeon go? I am assuming ok since you didnt mention it. So you had no problem with the vet dungeon. More so the Hard Mode you selected by reading the scroll.

Yup. And I've completed many of the other vet dungeons with scrolls before. It was just this one specific un-dodgeable mechanic that I had trouble with. Right after, we completed vet City of Ash (scroll) with no problem.

I don't mind the one-shot dodgeable mechanics. I'm familiar enough with dodge-rolling out of danger (even as magicka type with limited stam). But the one in Spindleclutch 1 ripped right through my armor and shield.

Pandorii

Mitoice wrote: »

but if you still dont believe me its not a CP problem, my game user is @Mitoice look me up and we can group together, we can do Vet dungeons together and you can get some practice and i can show you what you are doing wrong so you can get better at this game.

Hope we can do some dungeons together.

Thanks, but I'd rather not play with somebody who outright disregards the parts of my thread that suggest I already have as much experience playing this game as somebody with low-hand-eye reflexes can have. Seems kinda condescending if you ask me.

For the record, I beat vCoA before I even had cr160 on PC. I got a cr 50 kena helm (before 1T and the 100 percent drop rate). I also got skoria helm at cr 150.

I don't need help learning vet dungeons, thank you very much.

Pandorii

@timidobserver Yes. Had the group wiped again, I would have slotted harness and ward. I know that, because I've been around ESO for a while. Would a non-experienced CR 160 person know that. It relates to my point about near-perfect build.

For the record, nowhere in my thread did I suggest that dungeons should be nerfed. I shared an experience that I had as a low-CP player with a bit of wisdom about how ESO works and has changed over the years. I brought it up with the community so we could group think the solution, and I don't think that slotting a skill would be enough to make all the vet content doable for max-CP players.

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Vet dungeons were originally quite punishing. If you've been here since the beginning, you would remember. You're not supposed to melt everything in your path in a 10m race to the finish line.

As well, the effects of the new sets that add absurd spell and weapon damage have yet to be fully seen in game, and won't for some time. It would be foolish to do a knee-jerk nerf before we understand how sharply that gear changes the meta.

This is an example of a suggestion that considers the perspective of middle-ranged players like myself and the end-gamers who seem to dominate the forums and want a challenge. Both parties are important. Your perspective seems to favor one side. There's also other challenging content, like veteran trials and DLC dungeons that are absolutely unapproachable by cr 160 players.

Lieblingsjunge

Why does everyone expect newbies(people new to the game, not used negatively) to complete EVERYTHING? It's called a "Veteran" dungeon for a reason. They can do normal or farm CP/gear to complete Vet.

There is a reason "Normal" mode exist.

Edit: We really have to stop dumping everything down to a level where everyone can complete everything.

Pandorii

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Why does everyone expect newbies(people new to the game, not used negatively) to complete EVERYTHING? It's called a "Veteran" dungeon for a reason. They can do normal or farm CP/gear to complete Vet.

There is a reason "Normal" mode exist.

Everything? I am under the impression, as many are, that all veteran non-dlc dungeons should be completeable when you hit 160 CR.

I am also aware that DLC dungeons (Imperial City Prison, White Gold Tower, Ruins of Mazzatun, Cradle of Shadows), veteran trials (AA, SO, and Maw), and veteran Maelstrom Arena are not meant for players until they are closer to 300 CR (though it can be done before that). So where are you getting "everything" from, exactly @Lieblingsjunge?

timidobserver

Pandorii wrote: »

@timidobserver Yes. Had the group wiped again, I would have slotted harness and ward. I know that, because I've been around ESO for a while. Would a non-experienced CR 160 person know that. It relates to my point about near-perfect build.

For the record, nowhere in my thread did I suggest that dungeons should be nerfed. I shared an experience that I had as a low-CP player with a bit of wisdom about how ESO works and has changed over the years. I brought it up with the community so we could group think the solution, and I don't think that slotting a skill would be enough to make all the vet content doable for max-CP players.

"Dungeons a little too unforgiving" implies that they should be more forgiving. Maybe I misinterpreted?

IMO, you should have slotted it from the start of the dungeon. Alternatively you can change skills while dead. I always slot harness if I am doing something I'm not comfortable with. I don't think off barring a defensive ability is a complex solution.

vamp_emily

My first Vet dungeon was City of Ash.. oh boy do I remember that one. We barely made it out, and it took hours.

I find it fun working through hard content. Not everything should be easy peasy.

Lieblingsjunge

Pandorii wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Why does everyone expect newbies(people new to the game, not used negatively) to complete EVERYTHING? It's called a "Veteran" dungeon for a reason. They can do normal or farm CP/gear to complete Vet.

There is a reason "Normal" mode exist.

Everything? I am under the impression, as many are, that all veteran non-dlc dungeons should be completeable when you hit 160 CR.

I am also aware that DLC dungeons (Imperial City Prison, White Gold Tower, Ruins of Mazzatun, Cradle of Shadows), veteran trials (AA, SO, and Maw), and veteran Maelstrom Arena are not meant for players until they are closer to 300 CR (though it can be done before that). So where are you getting "everything" from, exactly @Lieblingsjunge?

Why should it? Having CP160 doesn't instantly mean you're by any means "good" at the game. Gear is important & utilising your kit is also important. Knowing the boss-mechanics helps, too. I know a CP277-guy who did Vet(!)Maelstrom Arena. He spent hours in there learning his character & Mechanics.

Edit: However, I DO(!) know that Spindle I-boss on hard mode is really challening. Probably one of the hardest.

MissBizz

The impression that everyone should be able to do vet at 160CP is from pre-One Tamriel... because "veteran" just meant the second half, and we related it to "veteran ranks".

NOW, there is really no reason you "need" to do the vet version if you are not well prepared for it. You can do multiple pledges, you can do both stories for the dungeons that have both, you can get CP160 gear in both.

I like the name "veteran" but at this point I think maybe they should have changed the difficulty naming to something different.. so it's no longer thought of as "over level 50".

Normal mode dungeons, or Hard mode dungeons.

Same thing as we have now, but a brand new CP160 player probably wouldn't say "oh well obviously I should be able to do hard mode!"

[edit] To clarify my stance.. no, I do not think that all CP160 players should be able to complete hard mode on all the veteran dungeons.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Pandorii wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

I disagree. You said vet mode with scroll correct? So you had trouble on some of the games hardest 4 man content on a lower cp character? I sort of think you should. I dont know for sure, but it also sounds like you still got through it?

How did the rest of the dungeon go? I am assuming ok since you didnt mention it. So you had no problem with the vet dungeon. More so the Hard Mode you selected by reading the scroll.

Yup. And I've completed many of the other vet dungeons with scrolls before. It was just this one specific un-dodgeable mechanic that I had trouble with. Right after, we completed vet City of Ash (scroll) with no problem.

I don't mind the one-shot dodgeable mechanics. I'm familiar enough with dodge-rolling out of danger (even as magicka type with limited stam). But the one in Spindleclutch 1 ripped right through my armor and shield.

Im curious then why you titled your post the way you did. Obviously you can and have completed many vet dungeons on hard mode. Leading me to the answer that no vet dungeons are not over tuned for low cp. characters.

Why did you not ask instead if just spidel was a bit overtuned?

Pandorii

@timidobserver you based your entire comment on my title? Hmm.. I know my thread was long, but it provides details.


@Lieblingsjunge Well is it? If the focus of veteran dungeons has changed, I think it's something that should be common knowledge. I really don't think that's the case, to be honest. And, I did suggest in my OT that if that is the case, then dungeon finder shouldn't put low CP players in these dungeons.

Lieblingsjunge

Pandorii wrote: »

@timidobserver you based your entire comment on my title? Hmm.. I know my thread was long, but it provides details.


@Lieblingsjunge Well is it? If the focus of veteran dungeons has changed, I think it's something that should be common knowledge. I really don't think that's the case, to be honest. And, I did suggest in my OT that if that is the case, then dungeon finder shouldn't put low CP players in these dungeons.

The dungeon finder has it's flaws. No doubt. But that shouldn't be a reason to dump everything down to easiest level.
Veteran dungeons are Veteran dungeons.

Pandorii

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Pandorii wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

I disagree. You said vet mode with scroll correct? So you had trouble on some of the games hardest 4 man content on a lower cp character? I sort of think you should. I dont know for sure, but it also sounds like you still got through it?

How did the rest of the dungeon go? I am assuming ok since you didnt mention it. So you had no problem with the vet dungeon. More so the Hard Mode you selected by reading the scroll.

Yup. And I've completed many of the other vet dungeons with scrolls before. It was just this one specific un-dodgeable mechanic that I had trouble with. Right after, we completed vet City of Ash (scroll) with no problem.

I don't mind the one-shot dodgeable mechanics. I'm familiar enough with dodge-rolling out of danger (even as magicka type with limited stam). But the one in Spindleclutch 1 ripped right through my armor and shield.

Im curious then why you titled your post the way you did. Obviously you can and have completed many vet dungeons on hard mode. Leading me to the answer that no vet dungeons are not over tuned for low cp. characters.

Why did you not ask instead if just spidel was a bit overtuned?

Sure. I'll change my title for people who write comments based on threat titles only. I used a broad title, because this could be a broad discussion. I'm only aware, from my experience today, of the mechanic in spindleclutch. There may be other players who had experiences like mine in different dungeons. But if a title change will prevent more 'L2P' threats. I'll change it.

MissBizz

Pandorii wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Pandorii wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

I disagree. You said vet mode with scroll correct? So you had trouble on some of the games hardest 4 man content on a lower cp character? I sort of think you should. I dont know for sure, but it also sounds like you still got through it?

How did the rest of the dungeon go? I am assuming ok since you didnt mention it. So you had no problem with the vet dungeon. More so the Hard Mode you selected by reading the scroll.

Yup. And I've completed many of the other vet dungeons with scrolls before. It was just this one specific un-dodgeable mechanic that I had trouble with. Right after, we completed vet City of Ash (scroll) with no problem.

I don't mind the one-shot dodgeable mechanics. I'm familiar enough with dodge-rolling out of danger (even as magicka type with limited stam). But the one in Spindleclutch 1 ripped right through my armor and shield.

Im curious then why you titled your post the way you did. Obviously you can and have completed many vet dungeons on hard mode. Leading me to the answer that no vet dungeons are not over tuned for low cp. characters.

Why did you not ask instead if just spidel was a bit overtuned?

Sure. I'll change my title for people who write comments based on threat titles only. I used a broad title, because this could be a broad discussion. I'm only aware, from my experience today, of the mechanic in spindleclutch. There may be other players who had experiences like mine in different dungeons. But if a title change will prevent more 'L2P' threats. I'll change it.

As you mention that...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/296796/one-shot-mechanics-in-new-vet-versions-of-part-i-dungeons

This is a thread @UrQuan started as he also noticed some one-shot abilities in the vet I dungeons. It seems that Spindle is not the only one with an annoying one shot. Spindle I is mentioned in that thread as well, not sure if yours is one that someone posted - the ones that were posted as apparently dodgeable.

timidobserver

Pandorii wrote: »

@timidobserver you based your entire comment on my title? Hmm.. I know my thread was long, but it provides details.

"I think that ZOS should revisit the (minimum non-DLC) dungeon's difficulties" also implies that you want difficulty nerfed/changed.

Pandorii

MissBizz wrote: »

Pandorii wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Pandorii wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

I disagree. You said vet mode with scroll correct? So you had trouble on some of the games hardest 4 man content on a lower cp character? I sort of think you should. I dont know for sure, but it also sounds like you still got through it?

How did the rest of the dungeon go? I am assuming ok since you didnt mention it. So you had no problem with the vet dungeon. More so the Hard Mode you selected by reading the scroll.

Yup. And I've completed many of the other vet dungeons with scrolls before. It was just this one specific un-dodgeable mechanic that I had trouble with. Right after, we completed vet City of Ash (scroll) with no problem.

I don't mind the one-shot dodgeable mechanics. I'm familiar enough with dodge-rolling out of danger (even as magicka type with limited stam). But the one in Spindleclutch 1 ripped right through my armor and shield.

Im curious then why you titled your post the way you did. Obviously you can and have completed many vet dungeons on hard mode. Leading me to the answer that no vet dungeons are not over tuned for low cp. characters.

Why did you not ask instead if just spidel was a bit overtuned?

Sure. I'll change my title for people who write comments based on threat titles only. I used a broad title, because this could be a broad discussion. I'm only aware, from my experience today, of the mechanic in spindleclutch. There may be other players who had experiences like mine in different dungeons. But if a title change will prevent more 'L2P' threats. I'll change it.

As you mention that...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/296796/one-shot-mechanics-in-new-vet-versions-of-part-i-dungeons

This is a thread @UrQuan started as he also noticed some one-shot abilities in the vet I dungeons. It seems that Spindle is not the only one with an annoying one shot. Spindle I is mentioned in that thread as well, not sure if yours is one that someone posted - the ones that were posted as apparently dodgeable.

I<3u @MissBizz I'll go tune in over there. =D