To Zenimax: Marketing Insights

silvereyes

So, this discussion has me thinking ... what *are* the target demographics Zenimax is going after? Obviously, they won't say, but as @anitajoneb17_ESO mentioned, you can often get a feel based on what a company's products and marketing look like.

I've seen the argument for "casual" gamers, which makes sense from the perspective of having the largest market possible. But what does the profile of a casual gamer look like, specifically? Why would such a player spend money in the Crown Store as it exists today? Why would they spend money on Crown Crates in the future? Does the argument for "casual" players really match with what the current and future Crown Store offerings look like?

The alternative theory is that Zenimax wants to go for the "whales". The heavily-invested players like most of us forum users, but who also are willing to dump a lot of real-world money into the game.

To me, the current pay-for-what-you-want Crown Store offerings seem to be mostly focused on "whales". I just don't see a casual gamer willing to plop down $40 at a time for a limited mount, but maybe I could be mistaken what constitutes a casual gamer.

The crates are the confusing thing to me. On one hand, they seem to cater to casual gamers by having a small transaction cost of 400 crowns: the microtransaction model.

On the other hand, there's no real reason to buy the crates just for consumables, since you can get exactly what you want for in bigger quantities for the same price.

But the flashy cosmetics that casual players might want are so unattainable, I can't imagine a casual player buying more than a few crates just to see what they get.

What does everyone else think? What do you think is the profile of Zenimax's target market going forward?

I'd love to get as specific as possible. Maybe it will help the community come up with more constructive ideas if we understand exactly what Zenimax is going for.

If we consistently put forth ideas that fundamentally conflict with their marketing vision, I agree that we aren't very likely to get very far. But if we understand where the other side is coming from, maybe it could lead to a compromise that avoids a lot of the toxicity that seems to be brewing.

anitajoneb17_ESO

silvereyes wrote: »

So, this discussion has me thinking ... what *are* the target demographics Zenimax is going after? Obviously, they won't say, but as @anitajoneb17_ESO mentioned, you can often get a feel based on what a company's products and marketing look like.

I've seen the argument for "casual" gamers, which makes sense from the perspective of having the largest market possible. But what does the profile of a casual gamer look like, specifically? Why would such a player spend money in the Crown Store as it exists today? Why would they spend money on Crown Crates in the future? Does the argument for "casual" players really match with what the current and future Crown Store offerings look like?

The alternative theory is that Zenimax wants to go for the "whales". The heavily-invested players like most of us forum users, but who also are willing to dump a lot of real-world money into the game.

To me, the current pay-for-what-you-want Crown Store offerings seem to be mostly focused on "whales". I just don't see a casual gamer willing to plop down $40 at a time for a limited mount, but maybe I could be mistaken what constitutes a casual gamer.

The crates are the confusing thing to me. On one hand, they seem to cater to casual gamers by having a small transaction cost of 400 crowns: the microtransaction model.

On the other hand, there's no real reason to buy the crates just for consumables, since you can get exactly what you want for in bigger quantities for the same price.

But the flashy cosmetics that casual players might want are so unattainable, I can't imagine a casual player buying more than a few crates just to see what they get.

What does everyone else think? What do you think is the profile of Zenimax's target market going forward?

I'd love to get as specific as possible. Maybe it will help the community come up with more constructive ideas if we understand exactly what Zenimax is going for.

If we consistently put forth ideas that fundamentally conflict with their marketing vision, I agree that we aren't very likely to get very far. But if we understand where the other side is coming from, maybe it could lead to a compromise that avoids a lot of the toxicity that seems to be brewing.

They don't use that sort of "classification". What we use (casual, hardcore, experienced, etc.) are categories used by US, referring to the sort of people we want/not want to group up with or be with in guilds. The other terminology you use ("whales") refers to consumer behaviour and is probably closer to what ZOS uses - but the truth is, we don't know what they use.

It doesn't matter that we don't "imagine casuals spending..." or anything the like. The marketing pro doesn't "imagine", he collects and analyzes raw data, out of which he identifies consumer profiles. When it comes to ESO, I assume they're analyzing how much time we spend in the game, and for what type of activities, and how much money we spend on the game, and on what services. They cross all this data with each other, probably add some other criteria like age, country of origin (that matters because disposable income varies considerably between countries, aggravated by currency exchange rates), etc. Then they come up with relevant "ESO player profiles", and depending on the numbers and ZOS' objectives, that will impact their decisions regarding the game's design, the Crown Store, the pricing, and the entire communication.

ZOS (or any other company for that matter) will NEVER be transparent about that, because that's "industry secret", and also because players wouldn't accept it at all. Remember when Firor said, a couple of weeks ago, that "the typical ESO player will enjoy coming back to the game to discover the new content, leave for a couple of weeks, then come back, he will be free to play at his own pace". (Not sure he said it exactly that way, I'm writing this from the top of my head). Hardcore players on this forum started ranting about the fact that they were treated like 2nd category and low priority players, and that there was no point sticking to ESO !

Transparency is not possible when talking to "ignorant crowds" and that's what we are, a crowd of Jon Snow's who know nothing. Besides, we don't share the same objectives as ZOS. ZOS wants (needs) money, we want to enjoy the game. These two objectives need to meet each other in order to be fulfilled, but where exactly they should meet in order for both motivations to be satisfied, that, we don't know.

All communication we get from ZOS (here, ESO Live, events, etc...) is nice and welcome, but it will *always* be corporate communication.

Mojmir

Op was part of the target right up until he made his presence known on the forums zos wants quiet and just play into things without question.

UrQuan

geonsocal wrote: »

holy cow - i knew you were pretty cool, but, I had no idea you were some kind of genius business type person

lol that's appreciated, but there's nothing "genius" about it... Show me a company that doesn't look at feedback like that and I'll show you a company that's either mismanaged to the point of incompetency or a company that has a monopoly or some other reason why they don't need to care about what their customers think of them.

Cazzy

For what it's worth; I unsubbed too. For the same reasons.

silvereyes

Looks like housing is off to a good start. Thank you Zenimax! This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about with reassuring people that not everything will be Crown Store or crate exclusive!

https://youtu.be/5PCFl5-DvSY?t=3m38s

"... any player can go on a quest when housing launches early next year and can get an apartment for free, as kind of their starter home.

Then they can - with in-game gold - they can buy better houses.

And the coolest thing we're adding, though, is we're adding furniture crafting. So, if you are a crafter, you can actually make furniture for other players and for yourself to put in your home and decorate it. And you're going to be able to decorate your home with hundreds of items, and add more

... and share with other people as well. You can invite people into your house. You can sell your furniture to other people if you want.

You can also own multiple homes in different parts of Tamriel, if you want.

And also, the houses are account-based, not character-based, so if you create a new character, you can actually go into all of your houses, because you're kind of part of the family.

...

And guilds are going to take advantage of this, because there are some pretty big houses out there. And you can have guild meetings in your house, if you invite 'em in.

It's a cool social thing, and players love to just kind of own a piece of the game, and this is their way to do it.

...

We're going to let them decorate any way that they want.... The philosophy is, 'give them a lot of cool things, and then allow them to put them in the house however they want.'"

hrothbern

.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

So, this discussion has me thinking ... what *are* the target demographics Zenimax is going after? Obviously, they won't say, but as @anitajoneb17_ESO mentioned, you can often get a feel based on what a company's products and marketing look like.

I've seen the argument for "casual" gamers, which makes sense from the perspective of having the largest market possible. But what does the profile of a casual gamer look like, specifically? Why would such a player spend money in the Crown Store as it exists today? Why would they spend money on Crown Crates in the future? Does the argument for "casual" players really match with what the current and future Crown Store offerings look like?

The alternative theory is that Zenimax wants to go for the "whales". The heavily-invested players like most of us forum users, but who also are willing to dump a lot of real-world money into the game.

To me, the current pay-for-what-you-want Crown Store offerings seem to be mostly focused on "whales". I just don't see a casual gamer willing to plop down $40 at a time for a limited mount, but maybe I could be mistaken what constitutes a casual gamer.

The crates are the confusing thing to me. On one hand, they seem to cater to casual gamers by having a small transaction cost of 400 crowns: the microtransaction model.

On the other hand, there's no real reason to buy the crates just for consumables, since you can get exactly what you want for in bigger quantities for the same price.

But the flashy cosmetics that casual players might want are so unattainable, I can't imagine a casual player buying more than a few crates just to see what they get.

What does everyone else think? What do you think is the profile of Zenimax's target market going forward?

I'd love to get as specific as possible. Maybe it will help the community come up with more constructive ideas if we understand exactly what Zenimax is going for.

If we consistently put forth ideas that fundamentally conflict with their marketing vision, I agree that we aren't very likely to get very far. But if we understand where the other side is coming from, maybe it could lead to a compromise that avoids a lot of the toxicity that seems to be brewing.

They don't use that sort of "classification". What we use (casual, hardcore, experienced, etc.) are categories used by US, referring to the sort of people we want/not want to group up with or be with in guilds. The other terminology you use ("whales") refers to consumer behaviour and is probably closer to what ZOS uses - but the truth is, we don't know what they use.

It doesn't matter that we don't "imagine casuals spending..." or anything the like. The marketing pro doesn't "imagine", he collects and analyzes raw data, out of which he identifies consumer profiles. When it comes to ESO, I assume they're analyzing how much time we spend in the game, and for what type of activities, and how much money we spend on the game, and on what services. They cross all this data with each other, probably add some other criteria like age, country of origin (that matters because disposable income varies considerably between countries, aggravated by currency exchange rates), etc. Then they come up with relevant "ESO player profiles", and depending on the numbers and ZOS' objectives, that will impact their decisions regarding the game's design, the Crown Store, the pricing, and the entire communication.

ZOS (or any other company for that matter) will NEVER be transparent about that, because that's "industry secret", and also because players wouldn't accept it at all. Remember when Firor said, a couple of weeks ago, that "the typical ESO player will enjoy coming back to the game to discover the new content, leave for a couple of weeks, then come back, he will be free to play at his own pace". (Not sure he said it exactly that way, I'm writing this from the top of my head). Hardcore players on this forum started ranting about the fact that they were treated like 2nd category and low priority players, and that there was no point sticking to ESO !

Transparency is not possible when talking to "ignorant crowds" and that's what we are, a crowd of Jon Snow's who know nothing. Besides, we don't share the same objectives as ZOS. ZOS wants (needs) money, we want to enjoy the game. These two objectives need to meet each other in order to be fulfilled, but where exactly they should meet in order for both motivations to be satisfied, that, we don't know.

All communication we get from ZOS (here, ESO Live, events, etc...) is nice and welcome, but it will *always* be corporate communication.

+1
Good post

Being able to segmentise your customers in relevant customer profiles is a professional expertise.
You have done it succesfully when:

1. you are able to make reliable Financial Forecasts with it (all the beancounters happy)
2. you can do the financial math for varying scenarios/projects to make your strategy and operational plans
3. the insight helps you to grow the business

Not only customers dislike to be caught in such systems, also many operational people in daily contact with customers are often quite surprised by the results and prefer their gut feeling that brought them and the company where they are.

Key is that you can estimate the Customer Profile Lifetime Value of each profile, the discounted profit over time of each profile over the expected Lifetime.
This means not only the top line, the sales, but also the bottom line (after substraction of the costs per account).

People that play seldom, except when after a new DLC they bought, generate a steady income at low operational cost.
=> an excellent customer profile to have and to cater.

IDK if those whales are so important. Good income, but also low frequency (I guess). So a nice profile to have for sure. But I do not believe that they are that important in strategic decisions (as long as they are not disturbed).

One of our other (macro) customer profiles will be accounts that do not pay a sub, seldom buy Crowns and spend much time playing.
Low income, high costs.
That profile as such will be a financial lossmaker.

But it has also the lowest financial barrier to entry => many new customers

Part of those players will over time migrate to other more profitable profiles. If you can develop the game so that this is encouraged you get a positive.
And again up to marketing to segmentise that lossmaking profile into relevant smaller segments that can be understood, that are responsive to specific actions based on that understanding, and give a steady flow of people to customer profiles that are more beneficial.

silvereyes

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/295905/guild-trader-time-change/p1

And now the guild trader kiosk flip time is moved to Sunday night! Cross another thing off my list of reasons I'm unhappy with Zenimax.

Now, if only they would walk back the crown crates, my faith in them would be completely restored. Pleeeeeeease?

anitajoneb17_ESO

silvereyes wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/295905/guild-trader-time-change/p1

And now the guild trader kiosk flip time is moved to Sunday night! Cross another thing off my list of reasons I'm unhappy with Zenimax.

Now, if only they would walk back the crown crates, my faith in them would be completely restored. Pleeeeeeease?

Yep, @silvereyes , I was thinking of you when I saw that news and thought, maybe your feedback wasn't as "useless" as I thought, I have to give you that !

silvereyes

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/295905/guild-trader-time-change/p1

And now the guild trader kiosk flip time is moved to Sunday night! Cross another thing off my list of reasons I'm unhappy with Zenimax.

Now, if only they would walk back the crown crates, my faith in them would be completely restored. Pleeeeeeease?

Yep, @silvereyes , I was thinking of you when I saw that news and thought, maybe your feedback wasn't as "useless" as I thought, I have to give you that !

I appreciate the sentiment, but the guild trader kiosk flip time is not "my" feedback at all. I don't deserve any credit.

It has been a consistent, high-profile pain point of EU for over a year, and for NA for the last several months (also here and here). It was brought up by Gina (thank you!) at PAX and got a rather awkward response from Phil and Rich that it was being looked into, but no ETA.

Most of us weren't really expecting any changes until Update 13, so the sudden announcement so shortly after 1T launched was a big shock, almost euphoric.

silvereyes

silvereyes wrote: »

2. Reaffirm commitment to "do no harm"
[snip]

What would cause me to start subbing again:

• ...
• Get rid of Major Crown Store Scrolls. They violate the first point by giving > XP than ambrosia. (Edit: I know this isn't P2W, but it violates a promise made when consumables were introduced to the CS. It's more about trust than about this specific item.)
• ...

"ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Mythic Aetherial Ambrosia
We've introduced Mythic Aetherial Ambrosia to Tamriel! Mythic Aetherial Ambrosia is an incredibly rare, incredibly potent version of Psijic Ambrosia. Drinking it grants you a +150% bonus to the Experience you gain while it is in effect....

• To craft Mythic Aetherial Ambrosia, you must first find an Aetheric Cipher.
  This extremely rare item can potentially be found on any monster within certain areas, listed below....

So, just a quick update on this. In my opinion, ZOS has gone about this in almost the worst, most deceptive way possible.

Rather than remove the super XP scrolls from the crates loot tables, they opted instead to add a new in-game potion to match. Not terrible, especially since the mats for the potion are rare and XP freebies (cake, skeleton morph) already exist during special events. I don't take issue with this at all.

No, the thing I have a problem with is the Aetheric Cipher drop rates. I understand the need to keep them rare, but seeing zero proof of a single drop on either NA or EU after two weekends is ridiculous.

At these rates, only a handful of people will ever own a cipher, and most of them will only be the millionaires. They will be in a prime position to manipulate the market on XP pots, assuming they even bother to sell them to others at all. It is quite possible that the prices of mythic ambrosia, once some crafters learn the recipe, will be unattainable for most players, thus making the recipe useless for them.

This leads to a de-facto Pay to Progress situation, where those willing to dump lots of real life money into crown crates will have a progression advantage against those who would prefer to use the in-game potions, since the in-game potions are unattainable.

idk

@silvereyes

For a thread touted as marketing insight I don't find anything about marketing the game. Merely QoL issues in game. Some have been fixed since OP posted of course and some I agree with, but it's not marketing.

Maybe that's it. Title is marketing the thread.

silvereyes

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

For a thread touted as marketing insight I don't find anything about marketing the game. Merely QoL issues in game. Some have been fixed since OP posted of course and some I agree with, but it's not marketing.

I can see that point of view, and I kind of agree with it, but I'm not changing the title again. The "marketing" aspect comes mostly from the introduction of crown crates, which are absolutely a marketing department baby, and are the thing that finally pushed me to unsubscribe.

silvereyes

So now the crown crates are out ... and after seeing the absolutely horrid conversion rate of consumables to gems and the lack of converting unwanted collectibles to gems, my boycott stands. I will not be buying any consumables or cosmetics from the crown store unless these crates get fixed. And I will not be renewing any of my subscriptions.

ZOS Marketing ... you have ruined all of my desire to support the game anymore. When I saw the guild kiosk bid time change and the fact that housing would have in-game gold purchase options and furniture crafting, I was seriously considering coming back into the fold. I was tempted to resub, buy the new frostcaster motif and maybe buying some stuff for player housing later on. I was tempted to buy merchant and banker assistants for my other 3 accounts.

Now you will get none of that money. Very sad.