To Zenimax: Marketing Insights

silvereyes

Note: The following is an open letter to Zenimax intended to provide some insights into my decisions for subbing or not, or buying from the Crown Store or not. It is not intended to demand any changes from ZOS or request any special treatment. It is purely for the benefit of Zenimax marketing and management.

Dear Zenimax,

First of all, thank you for making ESO so amazing. There is so much to love; from the art to the lore, to the deep crafting systems, there is always something that keeps me coming back. It is one of my favorite games of all time.

Despite all this, I recently decided not renew any of my 4 accounts' subscriptions. I'm also committed to avoiding spending any more crowns in the crown store.

My motivation for doing so is purely tactical. I'm not trying to punish ZOS or stick it to anyone. I'm not even mad. I did not come to the decision lightly, because I love the game and I *want* to support it. The work you all do deserves compensation. The overhead of running an online gaming business is high. I recognize all this. However, I also realize that ZOS is a business, and healthy businesses make decisions based upon profit. I firmly believe that "voting with your wallet" makes it easier for businesses to make decisions that align with their customers' desires. Others may disagree with this tactic, and that's fine, but it's just how I do things, and I know many others believe the same as me.

In that spirit, I want to provide your management and marketing teams some insights into how they can win back that lost revenue from me. It's just my own perspective, and I know it's not representative or special in any way. I don't expect it will make much of a difference, but I don't see the harm in sharing the "deep story" of my purchase decisions.

If others are in a similar situation, perhaps they can add their own perspectives as well. I don't want there to be any confusion about what causes us players to open our wallets. I want Zenimax to be as successful as possible by making their players as happy as possible.

1. Prioritize player pain points and communicate the plan

The problem:

For me, the most disappointing trend with ZOS lately has been the focus on large business objectives and crown store offerings at the expense of fixing quality of life issues for players. My perspective is mostly focused on guild traders and economic issues, since that's where I spend a lot of my time in the game.

• Not implementing pretty much any of the suggestions guild leaders have been requesting for over a year
• Kiosk bid flip time causing serious scheduling and stress issues for officers (why is this hard to reschedule?)
• Ridiculous kiosk prices due to the competitive nature of the system.
• Not effectively fixing bid spying loopholes

I've observed a similar lack of regard for other players' pain points (Magicka / Stamina balance, Cyrodiil lag, long wait times with group finder, low FPS in general vs. other AAA games, etc.).

What would cause me to start subbing again:

• Identify the biggest pain points of players.
• Come up with a strategy to address them.
• Come up with a schedule to get the strategy implemented as soon as possible.
• Communicate the strategy and the schedule to players
• Listen to feedback and adjust plans if necessary

2. Reaffirm commitment to "do no harm"

The problem:

The implementations of the style parlor and the PTS crown crates have a lot of us worried about the general direction of the ESO business model. Will it become like other pay-to-win MMOs? Will all player housing in update 13 be locked behind a paywall? Will most new desirable crown store collectibles be crate exclusives? Will new content continue to be a lower priority than crown store features?

What would cause me to start subbing again:

• Publicly reaffirm your commitment to "do no harm" in the Crown Store. This means no gear. It means no legendary upgrade materials. It means no BoE items that can be sold for gold in game. It means CS consumables need to *ALWAYS* be less than or equal to than their crafted counterparts (personally, I have no problem with them being 1:1 equal).
• Get rid of Major Crown Store Scrolls. They violate the first point by giving > XP than ambrosia. (Edit: I know this isn't P2W, but it violates a promise made when consumables were introduced to the CS. It's more about trust than about this specific item.)
• Commit to never lower drop rates of crafted consumables ingredients as a way to increase the appeal of CS consumables.
• Commit to releasing the majority of new CS collectibles for direct purchase, not as crate exclusives
• Commit to options for player housing that do not require crowns.
• Communicate your long-term vision for ESO.

3. Crown Crates: reduce RNG

The problem:

The implementation of crown crates on PTS revealed a startling lack of understanding about what constitutes a good customer experience for me. I am picky about my cosmetics, and I am picky about how I spend my money irl. I do not consider random item grab bags as a good value. Chances are, I will not like anything in any given crate. The consumables drops are worth nothing to me, and they make up the majority of the crates.

What would cause me to start buying from the Crown Store again:

• Ideally, I'd love to eliminate the RNG aspects entirely. But that's probably unrealistic, so here is how to turn the RNG crates into an acceptable value for me.
• Allow trading in cosmetics for Gems. I have no desire to clutter up my collections quickslot list with items that I will never use. Allowing crate collectibles to be converted back to gems at the standard duplicate rate would allow me to fix that.
• Give more Crown Gems. I do like the fact that there are Crown Gems, for the simple reason that they place an upper bound on how many crates it will take to acquire the collectible I want. But the rate of acquiring gems needs to be higher. The rates on PTS put the upper bound price for a legendary reward at around 30k crowns. It should be closer to 8-9k before I consider buying crates. The above point of allowing to refund unwanted cosmetics at the standard 1/3 rate would be sufficient to make the upper bound on any legendary item 8k.
• Publish drop rates. RNG is a gamble, and I can't make an informed risk/reward decision without the drop rates.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I sincerely hope to bring my business back some day.

Edit: PTS Crown Gem upper bound rates fixed for math.

JD2013

They're implementing Crown Crates whether they have your business or not. They've had your money.

They are, I believe, looking at more Crown Gems stuff, and drop rates etc, however you're not even forced to open the Crown Store tab if you don't want to.

I'm certainly no fan of them either, however because of how few times I've opened that store tab, I can happily ignore such things. Now, in an ideal world this game would have stayed sub only, but here we are. Deal or don't deal.

bebynnag

curious as to why you have 4 accounts!

and are paying subscription on all 4!

manavortex

I agree with @silvereyes to about 1000%. I have cancelled my two subscriptions for the same reasons and will not renew them.

This is the mail I've written to ZOS about the issue:



Hello folks,
you’ve asked why I’ve cancelled my subs. This mail may be lengthy. _Please_ do consider it. I will resubscribe when these issues are taken care of.

The reason is, I feel queasy with the way ESO is going right now.
I’ve played this game from day 1, I’ve always subbed, I have all the loyalty rewards, I have two alt accounts together with my husband. I have defended ZOS and ESO against those who have been complaining. I’ve been loyal, fiercely so, mayhaps - I am on the autistic spectrum, safe spaces and reliability are crucial for me.

I’m Guild leader of the Great House Telvanni, a social and support and roleplaying guild on EU. My guild is a close-knit community of people who don’t blend in very well with real life society - probably your core customer group.
We’re doing PVP, PVE, RP - we have three active RP hubs in Stonefalls, Wrothgar and Hew’s Bane, we’re dungeoneering regularly and have faced diverse hard modes, and there’s no trial that we have not yet cleared. We know our way around.
We have almost a dozen people on the autistic spectrum, myself included, several of them noticeably improving over the last two years.

We take care of each other and many of us have met in real life. That would not have been possible without the game we met in - the awesome game we all love.
But with every single one of these steps, ESO starts to feel less safe and more indifferent - not yet hostile, but it’s very disconcerting to voice our concerns and hear nothing. And we have been telling you what we wanted. We have created forum threads, we have talked to GMs, we have written e-mails and talked to people on gaming conventions.

You have been unreliable, and your customer communication sucks. The best example for that were the style parlour and the new hairstyles.
I (and a ton of other players) had been looking forward to them a lot, and when the live servers went up, they weren’t there. _They had been shown on ESO live_! _I had planned to give my main character a makeover so that she could wear the Tousled Poet_! _I bought the token_!
… the hairstyle still isn’t out as of today.

There’s absolutely no communication whatsoever on the dying issues that we’ve reported.

Then there was Hollowjack. I started a thread on the forums.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/289650/i-dislike-your-light-gameboyfrank-hollowjack-feedback-thread/p1
There was no reaction.
The direction the game’s visual is heading in reminds me of WOW - so much that I begin to wonder if you’re trying to compete with them. One of the reasons that made me love ESO above all other MMOs is that it was not doing this:

ESO does not need flashy stuff to be awesome. It’s so bright, I can’t see what I originally liked about the game. I know that my opinion is shared by most in my guilds and on my friendslist. We’ve been telling you that for more than a year now.

I don’t feel as if you are listening. I don’t feel as if you care.

And now, there are the Crown Store Crates. Everything wrong with them has been summed up in the 100+ pages of threads on the forum. They feel like an active attempt to bleed us dry.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/292545/official-discussion-thread-for-crown-crates/p1
Neither in the main thread nor in the subsequent feedback thread is a single reply of ZOS. I read a joke the other day. “How does the ZOS customer support react to your concerns? If it’s important, ignore it. If it’s not, reply with memes.” It hurt. It hurt, because it was true.


That’s why I unsubbed. I will resubscribe when - if! - things get better.
Please let me resubscribe.

Regards,
manavortex

silvereyes

puffytheslayer wrote: »

curious as to why you have 4 accounts!

and are paying subscription on all 4!

Lol, I knew that would come up. It's my OCD, ambitiously lazy income-generator: the hireling army! I have master level hirelings on all toons, for all crafts, on all 4 accounts. For 20-30 minutes of hireling dancing a day, I generate about 600k-1m a week. It's taken a long time, a lot of gold, and a lot of deconed daggers and belts to get here, though.

As for why the 4 subs ... it was mostly for the crowns, since I do buy cosmetics for each account. But I also like supporting the game.

silvereyes

manavortex wrote: »

I’m Guild leader of the Great House Telvanni, a social and support and roleplaying guild on EU. My guild is a close-knit community of people who don’t blend in very well with real life society - probably your core customer group.
We’re doing PVP, PVE, RP - we have three active RP hubs in Stonefalls, Wrothgar and Hew’s Bane, we’re dungeoneering regularly and have faced diverse hard modes, and there’s no trial that we have not yet cleared. We know our way around.
We have almost a dozen people on the autistic spectrum, myself included, several of them noticeably improving over the last two years.

We take care of each other and many of us have met in real life. That would not have been possible without the game we met in - the awesome game we all love.

I just want to give a huge shout out to @manavortex and Great House Telvanni here. What you are doing for each other is amazing. ESO is my first MMORPG; I come from more of a single-player RPG background. But it's communities like yours that make me so glad I took the plunge into multiplayer online.

Keep on doing what you are doing! Here's a kitten hug:

AtmaDarkwolf

10000 customers paying 5 bucks each, each of which cost 10cents to 'maintain' server for
or
100 customers, paying 500 each, each which costs 10 cents in server maintenance.

Same money, but less cost.

(If you can't tell, numbers are made up, but point is the same, less people each paying more will result in more overall profit since it costs less for them to 'provide service' overall)

They simply do -NOT- care they lose your business. They don't care if they lose mine. They only care that the bottom line is covered (with padding) -which, if only 1% of the current player base buys crates, will be covered(and then some)

manavortex

They simply do -NOT- care they lose your business. They don't care if they lose mine. They only care that the bottom line is covered (with padding) -which, if only 1% of the current player base buys crates, will be covered(and then some)

If that is true, then they are not the company who they seemed to be for more than a year. And in that case I'll cope, somehow. But certainly not by buying scam boxes.
Only time will tell, so we can now go back to trying to sway them instead of talking about how impossible that is. Because I don't think it is.

Rohamad_Ali

I'm just B2P . Once in awhile I'll hit a crown sale . This keeps my game life simple . When they do things I do not like , doesn't bother me as much and I just don't participate .

silvereyes

AtmaDarkwolf wrote: »

They only care that the bottom line is covered (with padding) -which, if only 1% of the current player base buys crates, will be covered(and then some)

I realize that my contribution is a drop in the bucket, albeit I would argue with 4 subs and multiple large ticket crown store purchases, I fall more into the target demographic than you give me credit for. I purchased both 5.5k assistants + a 4k senche mount for 3 accounts all within the span of a couple months. I don't know whether that makes me a "whale" or not, but I'm certainly not worthless to their bottom line.

I also am not making scrapping Crown Crates a prerequisite for earning my business. I know ZOS is a business that needs to make money and grow, and the crates make sense from a business perspective, in theory.

But the implementation is deeply flawed. If the crates are too bad of a value for even those with thousands of crowns to spend, I would argue that they need to do what they can for that demographic to make the crates worth the money.

The reasoning is that the crates have an upper bound on how long it would take to collect everything. That means even the top 1% of all purchasers won't spend more than several hundreds of dollars on each themed crate. And there just aren't that many people who fall into that category.

I would imagine that Zenimax's target is for the bulk of crate sales to come from people like myself. People who have some money to spend, and who want a specific legendary reward from the crates. I'm letting them know what my expectations are for value (5-6k to get a legendary reward). The value as it was on PTS is at scam levels of bad.

potirondb16_ESO

I do understand you PoV and it's mostly a trader one which I respect, personnally as a player who always hated the trading I have different priority but it's a given.

Personnaly, I would say :

Constitute a progression system and tell us about what it is !

For a long time the only progression we've seen Inside the game have been dailies, weekly trial, daily dungeon, daily quest, etc. Never have we seen any progression type scene coming up, no real trial-gear progression, no real main-quest progression.

All this seems to be gone into the neverland of oblivion, and to an MMO player that is really bad. I would love if you could create some progression oriented system. Craglorn reduce to a solo-friendly zone has been to me really disapointing since I was hoping for one progression DLC somehow REALLY REALLY SOON ! a DLC who would say, stop farming the 3 same trial, and get in here try to get this gear we created for you !

Also, and that's because as I said I hate mats farming, and reseller option, get this gear in gold if you can and forget about dungeon and Overland drop cause if you can get those you'll no longer need the one that drop from the other one.

manavortex

I get you, but...

menedhyn

Setting aside the (very valid) content for one moment, it's refreshing to see a well-reasoned, honest and constructive post which doesn't resort to some of the other tactics employed in the forums. For that alone, @silvereyes, you get an awesome from me.

idk

@silverelyning_ESO

Businesses tend to listen to customers vs those that are no longer doing business.

Additionally, your thread is one of many where someone felt that their reason for leaving was so important they needed to post it in the forums. A long list that has had an insignificant impact on the business.

Cya

silvereyes

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@silverelyning_ESO

Businesses tend to listen to customers vs those that are no longer doing business.

Additionally, your thread is one of many where someone felt that their reason for leaving was so important they needed to post it in the forums. A long list that has had an insignificant impact on the business.

Cya

But I am still a potential customer. That's the entire point of the post. I'm not ragequitting. I'm trying to provide constructive feedback to ZOS about how they can take my money.

Edit: A quick clarification: I don't think me being a potential customer entitles me to anything. I'm just pointing out that ZOS marketing "might" be interested in how to retain a customer. They might not, who knows. But I don't see the harm in sharing.

idk

silvereyes wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@silverelyning_ESO

Businesses tend to listen to customers vs those that are no longer doing business.

Additionally, your thread is one of many where someone felt that their reason for leaving was so important they needed to post it in the forums. A long list that has had an insignificant impact on the business.

Cya

But I am still a potential customer. That's the entire point of the post. I'm not ragequitting. I'm trying to provide constructive feedback to ZOS about how they can take my money.

@silvereyes

Everyone is a potential customer. Your one with DEMANDS so it's basically not going to be listened to. The feeling is, even if they fix everything you demand you'll just come back with more demands.

See where that goes. It's essentially CS 101.

DHale

I am sure that ZOS will bend over backwards to fix thing people don't like or they will quit or unsubscribe. If crown crates are not popular they will drop them.... oh wait they will be popular. I won't buy one and that is my choice same as everyone else.

Roechacca

You're more likely to get one of them to read this on Reddit then here.

silvereyes

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Everyone is a potential customer. Your one with DEMANDS so it's basically not going to be listened to. The feeling is, even if they fix everything you demand you'll just come back with more demands.

I hope that's not how the post is interpreted. My motivation isn't to demand anything. Like I said, I'm not even mad.

No, my motivation is to provide marketing insights. What is going on inside my head during the process of transitioning from actively participating in subs and the Crown Store to actively ignoring them? I don't see how them having that information could be bad for them.

ZOS will have my business or they won't. I don't control them. This post is for their benefit, not mine. I've already come to peace with the way things are going. I'll deal.

idk

silvereyes wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Everyone is a potential customer. Your one with DEMANDS so it's basically not going to be listened to. The feeling is, even if they fix everything you demand you'll just come back with more demands.

I hope that's not how the post is interpreted. My motivation isn't to demand anything. Like I said, I'm not even mad.

No, my motivation is to provide marketing insights. What is going on inside my head during the process of transitioning from actively participating in subs and the Crown Store to actively ignoring them? I don't see how them having that information could be bad for them.

ZOS will have my business or they won't. I don't control them. This post is for their benefit, not mine. I've already come to peace with the way things are going. I'll deal.

@silvereyes look no further than the title and first paragraph.

Also, Zos has a marketing team that vets business decisions and what basically serves as focus groups from within the game. The groups from from all types of players in the game from the more active math crunchers to the average players. There is even s group of trade guilds that talk with Zos (from what I hear from them).

They get a lot of feedback from here and Reddit

wayfarerx

silvereyes wrote: »

Publish drop rates. RNG is a gamble, and I can't make an informed risk/reward decision without the drop rates.

This right here is all it would take for them to keep me as a customer. I don't mind if their priorities differ from ours, I don't mind if they're understaffed or overworked, I can deal with the many little annoyances that are in the game.

I cannot, however, support them if they are determined to not deal fairly and honestly with their customers.

I will still be annoyed at the bugs and QoL issues and I will still hate the crown crates with the heat of a thousand suns but I can get by ignoring them if I feel like ZOS is playing fair with our money.

silvereyes

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

There is even s group of trade guilds that talk with Zos (from what I hear from them).

There is indeed a group of trade guilds that talks with Zos....

silvereyes wrote: »

• Not implementing pretty much any of the suggestions guild leaders have been requesting for over a year

That was literally my first bullet point. Their feedback has been ignored for over a year. In fact, the OP on that other thread was one of the primary facilitators of that group of trade guilds. She has since stepped down from guild management, as well as stepped down from facilitating those meetings, due to the stress of the bidding system and the lack of priority Zos has given their feedback.

obscure7

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Everyone is a potential customer. Your one with DEMANDS so it's basically not going to be listened to. The feeling is, even if they fix everything you demand you'll just come back with more demands.

I hope that's not how the post is interpreted. My motivation isn't to demand anything. Like I said, I'm not even mad.

No, my motivation is to provide marketing insights. What is going on inside my head during the process of transitioning from actively participating in subs and the Crown Store to actively ignoring them? I don't see how them having that information could be bad for them.

ZOS will have my business or they won't. I don't control them. This post is for their benefit, not mine. I've already come to peace with the way things are going. I'll deal.

@silvereyes look no further than the title and first paragraph.

Also, Zos has a marketing team that vets business decisions and what basically serves as focus groups from within the game. The groups from from all types of players in the game from the more active math crunchers to the average players. There is even s group of trade guilds that talk with Zos (from what I hear from them).

They get a lot of feedback from here and Reddit

The post and comments that @silvereyes made is the kind of post that marketing and advertising teams really want. That is the type of feedback that focus groups and marketing analysis dream about.

Yes, it is only one person's opinion, but it is representative of many upon many players, most of whom silently vote with their wallets, and then the marketing/advertising/business people have no clue what the wallet vote really is about. It is representative of a broader mind-set that exists and sometimes isn't voiced.

Thanks silvereyes for voicing your concerns and providing feedback for free that many would pay for.

GhostwalkerLD

Well said, @silvereyes , I only hope people will actually pay attention to your post as well as to our Crown Crate threads.... though I guess it's too much to hope that we would actually get a response for someone other than a forum mod.

potirondb16_ESO

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@silverelyning_ESO

Businesses tend to listen to customers vs those that are no longer doing business.

Additionally, your thread is one of many where someone felt that their reason for leaving was so important they needed to post it in the forums. A long list that has had an insignificant impact on the business.

Cya

There's also the bellringer type, yes if CS goes into a thread believing they should implement every option one player is looking for, then there's an issue. But if people agree to unsubscribe and then tell their honest opinion to Zenimax Team, as they also ask when you unsubscribe, then they get a glimpse at which type of player you might be, and what type of situation may they face if they don't adjust the content offert.

Pass that point it's no longer Customer service but product relevance vs. market.

acw37162

I agree with most of what you said.

Not particularly on board with XP scrolls bit and a couple of others.

I've already hit unsubscribe as a result of the crown crates.

I'm not financially supporting this decision, I'm with you on the game being a business and training a profit but I don't support what amounts to lottery crates.

The exclusive items look amamzing and I would easily buy three of them if I could purchase them. I won't invest one dollar in loot crates it didn't matter though in three months the box addicts will be screaming for the new themed crate.

Kreshja

if by pushing new content and patches while ignoring a lot of player feedback can attract more business than what they lose, they don't care about your cancellation of subscription. People who whine on forums is only a small fraction of the playerbase and a lot of them who whine or comment on these posts will still continue playing/paying.

ZOS claimed 7mm players globally, if only 5% pay an average $10/month, that is $3.5mm/month earning, a year is $42mm revenue, that seems big enough for a game company to keep doing their current strategy since the most costy work is developing the game with 0 revenue before it went live. After the game went live and started to earn revenue, the company still need to maintain a certain amount of staff there to keep the game/product working and alive by maintenance, supervision, community and new content. Assume they have 50 people team working on ESO (seems too big than what it really is), average pay is $80k/year, plus extra benefits, lets say total labor is $5mm/year. Except labor the other main cost may be servers, which I have no idea how much should be assumed. Left is marketing, community, events, office supply, administration, misc. cost. I don't see the whole cost gross over $10mm/year, but let's say it does. ZOS still has $32mm/year profit left. And now how many years has ESO been out? Gaming is a very profitable business if you do it well.

So now it's very obvious that with above simple calculation ZOS can break even or are even satisfied with the strategy, so then they will very unlikely change their direction. By "direction" it includes many things: the core philosophy of the game content, i.e. difficulty, drops, mechanics, RNG, balance, story, and of the relationship between player and ZOS, i.e. free to play yet can pay for non-essential stuff, events/community interactions, how much to take in player feedback, how to deal with bugs and exploits, prioritize creating new content or fixing etc. It seems rare that a game company will change its direction or elements of its direction based on player feedback/request to a degree that satisfies players, but they rather tend to stick to their own set direction, after all it's them who are holding the steer and the game is their baby. Creatives don't easily change their products based on what other people think.

As for crown crates, they will happen even if many people complain. Because 1st they don't actually break game balance as to p2w, the higher exp gain scroll is hardly p2w cuz exp is a very tiny part of the game content and this game has little to no grinding compared to Korean MMOs, p2w should be selling coins, gears or gold mats for real money. 2nd, some players who like to gamble, who have too much money or who are too "stupid" to wing it will buy them, so why not ZOS take this extra revenue of income? 3rd, the same as to many other matters, the player base only has strong detest when this new thing is during testing or during introducing phase, time will assuage the angst from players from it and you will see less complaint about it. Just like 2 patches ago sorcs were crying out loud on the forum yet after patch dropped no one continued to complain, although sorc is still underperforming compared to other classes.

Unless something major happens, such as 80% of player leave the game or a major breach appears that allows people to rig the game, it is unlikely ZOS will change their direction, and sometimes companies don't even change when that happens, and sometimes they will let go of or close the game and focus on other games, MMOs average life cycle is only several years, if not a few years. For example, the Chinese company in charge of running Shaiya online in China didn't do anything after 3rd party software flooded the game, yet the game is surprisingly still alive after many years and everyone is cheating, and it's p2w.

When something happens 3 times, I think it's better to drop it/leave. Same for this game. If you cry about RNG 3 times on the forums/at 3 patches, or about bug fix 3 times, or about balance, it is obvious a pattern/strategy/direction ZOS is taking and your cry won't let them change. Continue playing the game or cry on forum, will only torture yourself. Just let go, cancel sub, leave the game and forum and news. Don't keep on for keeping on. After all, the world is so much about money, and gaming is a business, and we are the cows being milked by ZOS. Why not find a place/game where being milked feels better?

silvereyes

acw37162 wrote: »

I don't support what amounts to lottery crates.

I respect that. I certainly don't want them either, and I have no problems with anyone that takes a hard stance on them.

The reason my stance is a little more lenient is that there is one thing that makes the crate mechanics a little different than a lottery: Crown Gems. In a big enough lottery with enough participants, there is the statistical certainty that some people will never win, no matter how many tickets they buy. The Crown Gems change that because:

• Every crate is guaranteed to have a tiered cosmetic reward
• The cosmetic rewards are a finite quantity.
• Duplicates refund Crown Gems

With enough crates, Crown Gems guarantee that all rewards will be theoretically attainable with a finite number of crates - if not via drop, then via Gems purchase.

The theoretical worst case scenario for acquiring any specific apex reward on PTS was 134 crates, or 53,600 crowns ($389.72 US). The theoretical worst case scenario for any specific legendary reward (100 gems) gives a maximum of 74 crates, or 29,600 crowns ($215.22 US).

Expand for math/logic on the worst-case scenario:

Say a really rich person only wants a specific apex reward, and won't be satisfied with any of the other drops. The theoretical worst luck they could have would be to receive every single other reward at least once, since those would not give any Gems. There are 55 total cosmetic rewards in the crate, which means after 54 crates of the worst luck ever, every new crate would give at least 5 gems (the minimum refund for a white reward), or the drop they want. To outright buy the 400 Gem apex mount at that point would require an additional 80 crates of terrible luck (all white rewards).

That's obviously very, very bad. But it's also totally fixable by increasing the rate at which gems are acquired.

In my opinion, a legendary mount shouldn't have a maximum potential cost of any more than about 9,000 crowns ($65.44 US). Keep in mind, you would have received every single other crate collectible in that scenario, so 9,000 crowns isn't totally unreasonable. It's still stinking expensive, but not unattainable if you really want that 1 specific reward.

The PTS worst case was 29,600 crowns or about 3.3 x 9,000 crowns, so the gem drop rates have a LOOONG way to go before I consider them fair.

Gina has already stated that they are looking into trading in consumables for gems, which will help some, but probably not enough.

It's really up to Zenimax if they want to make these crates palatable to a larger market segment. Buffing gem drops by 3.3x is my personal target for them. If they buff the rate less, then I will most certainly conclude that they are too big of a risk, and I will not buy a single one.

Edit: a quick clarification. By gem "rates" and "drops" I'm not talking about refund values per se. I'm talking about the total number of gems accrued in a worst-case scenario. Just buffing duplicate values won't be enough, since a worst-case scenario involves getting 54 drops you don't want, with no gems. 54 crates is already way over 9k crowns, so another significant source of gems needs to be introduced. One idea would be add the ability to trade in unwanted collectibles for the same 1/3 refund rate. It would guarantee 5 gems per unwanted drop, making the absolute maximum number of crates to get a legendary reward == 20. They wouldn't even need to even allow trading in consumables at that rate, since 20x400 crowns = 8,000 crowns for worst-case.

Congrats if you made it through that whole post. Here is a kitten as a reward. She is asking Zenimax to please give her more Crown Store Gems.

craigr02

Dear zos,
I like your game, so I'll still subscribe. I won't however buy the crates, because that's not for me, and I didn't like the gear from it. If it gets better maybe I will. I guess the 1500 crowns a month will get spent then ☺.

Hurry up and give us jewelery crafting!

Thanks,

Craigr02

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Kreshja wrote: »

if by pushing new content and patches while ignoring a lot of player feedback can attract more business than what they lose, they don't care about your cancellation of subscription. People who whine on forums is only a small fraction of the playerbase and a lot of them who whine or comment on these posts will still continue playing/paying.

I love this arguement. I loved it more when it was being thrown around about why the game would always be subscription based.

Actually_Goku

Great thread mate. It's refreshing to have some constructive criticism for a change, rather than just whiney BS. I agree with quite a lot of this.