We need soft caps

Bashev

Asardes wrote: »

I wasn't playing when soft caps were in force and I don't know how they worked in practice, but I can guess there were plenty of people back then complaining about them, and them not being able to burst the other folks. So they got removed and other people started complaining, the ones with the tankier builds mainly. So they buffed heavy armor regeneration passives and then the first crowd started complaining again. Same with stamina and magicka. This is a never ending merry-go-round. From my experience there are plenty of good and plenty of bad players, both magicka and stamina. I can't burst some of the heavy armor players alone, and I can't burst some of the ones with strong self heals and/or shields.

But I don't go around asking for heavy armor to be nerfed, or shields and heals to be nerfed . There has to be some smarter solution to the problems, that won't upset of the other half of the crowd. Balance can't be achieved with constant change, and I can't even think that it exists in an objective manner, since everyone's perception is subjective. As a company looking to make money ZoS tries to keep as many people happy as possible. The fact that they haven't talked about these soft caps or made any move to implement them again shows that probably they consider that it won't please more players than it will *** off. Forum posts may not be relevant to the customer base overall.

Not many people complained for the soft caps. Some complained because they were too low but they have never said that they want them removed. FYI Soft caps were removed because of Champion point system.

Derra

Bashev wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

I wasn't playing when soft caps were in force and I don't know how they worked in practice, but I can guess there were plenty of people back then complaining about them, and them not being able to burst the other folks. So they got removed and other people started complaining, the ones with the tankier builds mainly. So they buffed heavy armor regeneration passives and then the first crowd started complaining again. Same with stamina and magicka. This is a never ending merry-go-round. From my experience there are plenty of good and plenty of bad players, both magicka and stamina. I can't burst some of the heavy armor players alone, and I can't burst some of the ones with strong self heals and/or shields.

But I don't go around asking for heavy armor to be nerfed, or shields and heals to be nerfed . There has to be some smarter solution to the problems, that won't upset of the other half of the crowd. Balance can't be achieved with constant change, and I can't even think that it exists in an objective manner, since everyone's perception is subjective. As a company looking to make money ZoS tries to keep as many people happy as possible. The fact that they haven't talked about these soft caps or made any move to implement them again shows that probably they consider that it won't please more players than it will *** off. Forum posts may not be relevant to the customer base overall.

Not many people complained for the soft caps. Some complained because they were too low but they have never said that they want them removed. FYI Soft caps were removed because of Champion point system.

Softcaps in the current state of the game will just make procc sets even better. There is not simple way of implementing them back currently (except sth like 50k stam/mag 55k healt, 4500 - 5000 spell/wpndmg, 2000 of each reg - because those would likely not impact pve thaaaat much).

bubbygink

The problem with implementing soft caps is that it gives a huge buff to the proc sets like viper/veli/red mountain/etc. Stam builds that run viper + veli+ black rose, for example, don't have very high stats on paper. These builds won't be affected by soft caps at all. In fact, proc set builds will become stronger because other builds (the ones that focus on getting high stats rather than damage procs) will have their stats reduced by the soft caps. In essence it will force players to slot something like viper instead of going with hundings if their weapon damage is already at the soft cap. Soft caps will make the proc set meta even more prominent.

cjthibs

bubbygink wrote: »

The problem with implementing soft caps is that it gives a huge buff to the proc sets like viper/veli/red mountain/etc. Stam builds that run viper + veli+ black rose, for example, don't have very high stats on paper. These builds won't be effected by soft caps at all. In fact, proc set builds will become stronger because other builds (the ones that focus on getting high stats rather than damage procs) will have their stats reduced by the soft caps. In essence it will force players to slot something like viper instead of going with hundings if their weapon damage is already at the soft cap. Soft caps will make the proc set meta even more prominent.

Sure. And the stupid random-I-win-buttons shouldn't have ever been put in either.

bubbygink

cjthibs wrote: »

Sure. And the stupid random-I-win-buttons shouldn't have ever been put in either.

I don't disagree. The proc sets are already so much stronger than other sets it is hard not to use them and remain competitive with those who do use them. But soft caps will even make this worse. It will essentially force players to use proc sets because using something else would cause them to hit the cap on WD/Max Stam/Etc.

Bashev

Derra wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

I wasn't playing when soft caps were in force and I don't know how they worked in practice, but I can guess there were plenty of people back then complaining about them, and them not being able to burst the other folks. So they got removed and other people started complaining, the ones with the tankier builds mainly. So they buffed heavy armor regeneration passives and then the first crowd started complaining again. Same with stamina and magicka. This is a never ending merry-go-round. From my experience there are plenty of good and plenty of bad players, both magicka and stamina. I can't burst some of the heavy armor players alone, and I can't burst some of the ones with strong self heals and/or shields.

But I don't go around asking for heavy armor to be nerfed, or shields and heals to be nerfed . There has to be some smarter solution to the problems, that won't upset of the other half of the crowd. Balance can't be achieved with constant change, and I can't even think that it exists in an objective manner, since everyone's perception is subjective. As a company looking to make money ZoS tries to keep as many people happy as possible. The fact that they haven't talked about these soft caps or made any move to implement them again shows that probably they consider that it won't please more players than it will *** off. Forum posts may not be relevant to the customer base overall.

Not many people complained for the soft caps. Some complained because they were too low but they have never said that they want them removed. FYI Soft caps were removed because of Champion point system.

Softcaps in the current state of the game will just make procc sets even better. There is not simple way of implementing them back currently (except sth like 50k stam/mag 55k healt, 4500 - 5000 spell/wpndmg, 2000 of each reg - because those would likely not impact pve thaaaat much).

Make the proc sets value, based on the stats that you have. Without soft caps next patch will be: CC (drop block, stop dodge) and burst you for 2 seconds.

DHale

I don't ever want to see soft caps again in ESO. They were azz before and that won't change. I want to see consistent progression of my character.

Saint_Bud

The numbers of softcap from pre cp systhem in current stats numbers are about 1400 magicka 1300 stam regen, 2000 weapon damage ( spelldamage setbonus was differant to wd) and 25000 stam/magicka health 3000-3200 (not shure)20000 armour recistance. Softcaps like this will gimp nearly all pvp and pve builds at the time. The problem are the high stats with no penalty to resurce broblems. Just look at the damage increased since imperial city release with no gear up. The dps of the players are douple.

sry for bad eng.

AfkNinja

DHale wrote: »

I don't ever want to see soft caps again in ESO. They were azz before and that won't change. I want to see consistent progression of my character.

SO you want constant power creep to the point that all content becomes trivial, got'cha.

They have 2 choices, find a way to make softcaps work again or constant nerfs due to power creep. Pick your poison.

Soris

Forget about pvp for a sec, even for pve standpoint softcaps are needed bcs even in hardcore pve content it is so easy to win with the current power levels.

I understand consistent progression is important but it just makes the fights like Gods vs Cocroaches.
In pvp this power creep is much more big problem.

Surgee

Instead of adding soft cap on crit, they should GREATLY decrease the amount of crit chance player gets from all sources. It's ridiculous that you can't PVP without impenetrable because everyone sport 50%+ crit chance without even trying. In any other game, you can achieve maybe 20% crit chance if you really devote your build to it.

Anazasi

No no no no no no no.

First off ZOS will not introduce soft caps as they have already removed them. This is akin to asking over and over to remove AOE caps. We all know it will never happen so please save the pixels.

Second we have a combat balance patch coming, I believe its the next patch before housing. Just be patient. I know younglings have an issue with that one right.

Third. Come on guys, you all know that maxing out one of those great lines comes at a great sacrifice. when you theory craft a build you have to always balance damage, regens, pools, defense, and so on. Please lets max out that damage and ignore the rest so you really are a glass cannon.

patience is the best solution. yes 2.6 is going to introduce a lot of crazy builds but in all honesty we need this as part of the devs progression for learning. Let it happen and see what changes with the combat balance.

dsalter

Anazasi wrote: »

Third. Come on guys, you all know that maxing out one of those great lines comes at a great sacrifice. when you theory craft a build you have to always balance damage, regens, pools, defense, and so on. Please lets max out that damage and ignore the rest so you really are a glass cannon.

exept the issue with the whole maxing builds is the sacrifice is heavily out weighed by the advantages.

look at bomb blades for instance, they are glass cannons but guess what? they have a very reliable way to escape (not just cloak, blur as well) can wipe out entire GROUPS in a quick burst and requires very minimal gear grind.

the real problem atm is how much of a boost animation cancelling as well as CP scaling impacts most combat. if we halve CP values of most stars (those ones that boost light and heavy attacks of weapons can stay, i mean they suck as is) and actually fix animation cancelling, the power creep will slow down

potirondb16_ESO

Bashev wrote: »

PvP only
ZoS how will you balance next patch builds as:
50k+ magicka/stamina
or
5k+ weapon damage/spell damage
or
100% crit healer builds (increased critical healing cannot be counter)
or
10k+ health recovery builds
or
blazing shield builds with swarm mother sets
or
100% penetration builds
etc

Some of the values can be achieved now but you sacrifice all the rest. In the next patch these values will be very common for any decent player.

@ZOS_RichLambert , @ZOS_BrianWheeler will you try to bandaid the balance by increasing the battle spirit?

SoftCap are a REALLY REALLY WONDERFULL OPTION !

I support 100% your opinion, because at the moment if you want a strong build, all you have to do is max one aspect of your balance and you start having a really powerfull momentum base on that. Now with the new set coming we will see more Trolling Templar, more Crit Creeps Kajhit and well everyone notice the point, while balanced gear would shut down the drain for being too general even if technicly a well-balance build should be Worth a shot anytime against a specialise one (except specific situation).

That being said, it would also allow modification of the regular gear bonus, for example some set from trial or from dungeon or from pvp won't need to give the 688 crit modifier since in order to make them unique and since there's a cap those set can be made more powerfull because there's a soft cap which would oblige player to relinquish some contrôle over a max stats.

Example : Molag Kena can be turn into a 154 - 1pc bonus, if on the long run when the proc appears the bonus it gives is contrôle to a maximum which makes it uninteresting to run with (let's say a Silk of the Sun set).

Joy_Division

Anazasi wrote: »

No no no no no no no.

First off ZOS will not introduce soft caps as they have already removed them. This is akin to asking over and over to remove AOE caps. We all know it will never happen so please save the pixels.

Second we have a combat balance patch coming, I believe its the next patch before housing. Just be patient. I know younglings have an issue with that one right.

Third. Come on guys, you all know that maxing out one of those great lines comes at a great sacrifice. when you theory craft a build you have to always balance damage, regens, pools, defense, and so on. Please lets max out that damage and ignore the rest so you really are a glass cannon.

patience is the best solution. yes 2.6 is going to introduce a lot of crazy builds but in all honesty we need this as part of the devs progression for learning. Let it happen and see what changes with the combat balance.

That's a lot on nos that you typed, but I don't think what you followed it up with is worthy of that many nos.

It's perfectly fine for a company to go back on a decision that they made. It's fine. I understand in the political world this is pejoratively (and stupidly) known as "flip-flopping." In the real world, it's known as introspection and not allowing your ego to interfere in decision making. I much prefer thoughtful game developers who have an open mind than egoists who are too stubborn to reevaluate dubious decisions.

Yes, we have a balance patch coming. Do you remember the last "balance" patch? The one that gave us viscous death and pointless tweaks to still useless abilities? We also had one in Feb 2015 which created such a mess that the band-aid PvP battlespirit mechanic was deemed necessary to fix what ZoS has broken. The very fact they are going to introduce a balance patch - again without our input fills me with apprehension rather than confidence.

Maxing out these lines only comes as a sacrifice if you are playing a magicka DK. Every stam build in Cyrodiil who knw what they are doing can avoid/mitigate damage like a tank, heal themselves as a healer, and put out tremendous burst like a glass cannon all in a single package. The only "glass cannons" in cyrodiil are those players who are either too inexperienced or lack knowledge of the game's mechanics to know better.

Cyrodiil has been plagued by this since Feb 2015, we don;t need more patience as the problem is clear as day.

Derra

Joy_Division wrote: »

Cyrodiil has been plagued by this since Feb 2015, we don;t need more patience as the problem is clear as day.

Well tbh before that it was either bowgank or every class ans specc running 1h+shield.

Templar? Sword and board.
DK? Sword and board.
Sorc? Sword and board.
NB ? Guess what - sword and board.

All of those players would waddle into resources while holding block back then when being enganged open field.

The patch i diskliked the most out of all the terrible things that happened to the game is still patch 1.5. Closely followed by whatever introduced sturdy block cost reduction (thieves guild?).


In my opioning blocking should be reactionary not something you can maintain permanently.
The same goes for sneak.
Both should share more similarities with sprinting in terms of ability to maintain it.

Soris

Derra wrote: »

In my opioning blocking should be reactionary not something you can maintain permanently.
The same goes for sneak.
Both should share more similarities with sprinting in terms of ability to maintain it.

Blocking cold have been reactionary if there were no animation cancelling. You often don't even see the attack animation of someone, how could you block reactionary? Shuffle makes this even worse.

Also think of like blocking is just like dmg shields. You dont cast the sheild reactionary, you keep the shield up during the whole fight right? Blocking is the "dmg shield" of sword&board users and already penaltied heavily.

Saint_Bud

Tanks in heavy armour and S&B should be able to block, but dont have the same damage.

Doctordarkspawn

Removing the AOE cap and softcaps are, sadly, more bandaid solutions at this point.

A bandaid on a gaping wound. This game does not know what it wants to be, and Softcaps would be a definate step in a direction. Does not mater what direction, but it'd be a firm step in a direction, and we cant have that. Oooohhhhh noooo.

RinaldoGandolphi

1.Bring Soft caps back to the game.

2. Disable the Champion system in Cyrodiil across the board and implement a new Allaince War specific system to replace the CP system in Cyrodiil thats based off earning AP with bonuses such as:

Deploy siege faster
chance to not use a soul gem when rezing
reduce cost of Support abilities by 10%
Earn 1 additional ultimate everytime you rez a player with 5 sec cooldown
Gain a damage shield while rezzing an ally
take 15% less damage for 6 seconds after being rezzed
increase health, magic, and stamina recovery by 20% for 6 seconds after deploying a forward camp
.
etc...i could go on...but you see where im going..."small pvp specific bonuses" not this + 25% damage +25% healing rubbish we have now with the CP system.

CP system has no place in PVP, its too unbalanced. It can be balanced in PVE with trash mob adjustments, but not in PVP. it needs to go. Its not possible to balance this with human beings in the equation.

3. Reduce battle spirit healing, and damage reduction to 20% from 50%
4. Reduce Shield Value nerf from 50% to 15% (Since there are softcaps and no Bastion CP shields will be much smaller then they are even now on live)
5. All these damage proc sets need to be changed where they only come in 3 Jewels and 2 armor pieces(head and shoulders) and all of them use them same two armor pieces(head and shoulders) so you can't ever wear more then one at any given time. This means no Veli + Widow maker, No Red Mountain + Skoria, etc...only 1 proc set can ever be worn at one time period.

thats a start....its not perfect...but its a start in the right direction....this game is fisted from many angles when it comes to balance...and an OP CP system and RNG procs from either Shuffle ot your proc set of the month should not be the deciding factor in pvp

Also, removing CP system from Cyrodiil means they can actually nerf impnetrable and sharpened like they should have a long time ago....PVP is stuck with only 2 viable traits...Sharpened and Impentrable and thats just utter garbage from a balanced standpoint...I worked so hard with a few others(who sadly left the game) to get Impenetrable and Sharpened nerfed after 1.6 and 1.6 had a TON of viable traits...folks were running around with Reinforced, Precise, Sharpened, Nirnhoned, Defending, Divines...it opened the flood gates for many traits to be viable(even if Nirn was over tuned, they should have just fixed that and left the others alone), but then they went right back and buffed the tar out of Impen and Sharpened and here we are again reduced to 2 viable traits..traits are supposed to just that...traits "SMALL BONUSES" they are not supposed to be game deciding things for gods sake....there should only be a 1% difference between a sharpened staff and a powered one....this would also alleviate a lot of the frustration of folks not getting the traits they want from stuff. If the traits were actually small bonuses instead of game changing must haves it would do a lot for the game.

I think ZOS has some good people, but they need to just sit down and look at things logically and try and make the game better, adding barriers to gear, pvp, and end game content is not the way to move forward. Normalizing the game under a clear set of standards is. A single trait should never be some huge 7-10% better then everything else...things need to be normalized to some degree...YYMV

Dezaker_Zyro

I think they should stop with the skills scaling to max stamina/magicka crap. It should be based on the skill, the skills level/morph, player level/equipment and a percent boost based on the points invested. Say each point invested into Stamina would increase weapon power by x% and yield however much stamina (which could honestly be less if it also granted some regen). Magick would increase magick power in the same way and points in health cound increase damage resistance. This would give a clear and defined outcome of placing attribute points. Then we could have other things to work with than just maximize Stamina/Magicka. I hate having to stack resources to be viable. Soft caps and re-purposing the way our attribute points work could do so many wonders for the intelligent balance of the game.

Detector

No for soft caps! Only full freedom of builds.

dsalter

Detector wrote: »

No for soft caps! Only full freedom of builds.

but no caps narrows down the amount of viable builds...

Rune_Relic

@Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Alternative to soft caps = duality (max/mean/min).

The main problem for me is hybrids dont work.
So any fix must be based on the premise of hyrbids being viable.
The problem is the hybrid is actually a base build with 0 stacks.
So the hybrid build is not at the average/mean and sit somewhere in the middle.
The hybrid build at the moment sits at minimum....and thus can never compete.

What you need is dualistic split stats which scales opposites.
100% positive + 100% negative is the dafault setting with 0 point invested.
Maximum swing is +-25% (ZOS variable)
So you can range form 125%/75% negative ~ 75%/125% positive.

Here, the hybrid build will always have 100% into each.
Specialist builds will have to undercharge opposing skills to improve its opposite.

eg.
75-125% shock damage | 75-125% shock resist (total always = 200%)

Hybrid...
100% shock damage | 100% shock resist (total always = 200%)

DD...
125% shock damage | 75% shock resist (total always = 200%)

Tank...
75% shock damage | 125% shock resist (total always = 200%)

crit damage% vs crit save%
crit damage vs crit save (resist)
physical damage vs blockable damage
magical damage vs wardable damage
penetration vs armour

Solus

dsalter wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

Third. Come on guys, you all know that maxing out one of those great lines comes at a great sacrifice. when you theory craft a build you have to always balance damage, regens, pools, defense, and so on. Please lets max out that damage and ignore the rest so you really are a glass cannon.

and requires very minimal gear grind.

I disagree with this. I use 5 viper/ 5 spriggan/ 1 molag/ 1 veli. None of that was handed to me in a day. Or even in a short amount of time. Probably just like any other build, it takes time invested to get certain things, time to farm mats to make legendary. Nothing is handed to you ever.

That being said, sure the proc sets are OP. Part of the thing for me being able to take people down is my hard work that i put into making my build. Why should my stuff be nerfed to make you happy? I just worked how many weeks/months to get gold viper jewels and sharpened spriggan maces? Those dont grow on trees you know.

Vythri

Detector wrote: »

No for soft caps! Only full freedom of builds.

Except without soft caps, you have less freedom of builds.