The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Maintenance for the week of April 22:
• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 22, 4:00AM EDT (08:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 24, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 24, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 22, 4:00AM EDT (08:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 24, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 24, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 10.0.1 is available.
'Tis the Season...for Set Balance
wildbear247
✭✭✭
--- TL;DR ---
For certain core sets in the game ensure there are balanced sets for magicka, stamina, and tanks when feasible. Specific core areas to address:
1) High damage: No change recommended...these sets seem mostly balanced to me. Julianos balances Hundings, and there are tank sets that bring various damage options to the table.
2) Penetration: Balance is needed. Stamina users have access to Night Mothers Gaze, but there is no equivalent magicka option that can be crafted.
3) Resource management: Balance is needed. Magicka users have access to the Seducer set, but there is no equivalent stamina option that can be crafted.
4) Stat pools: Balance is needed. Update 12 will bring us the medium Draugr Hulk set that provides just about 6000 stamina, an equivalent heavy set (Plague Doctor) provides about 8000 health, but we have no light armor set that provides 6000 magicka.
5) Buff sets: Balance is needed. Tanks have access to sets that provide Major Brutality (Dreugh King Slayer), Major Sorcery (Update 12, Rattlecage set), and Minor Force (Update 12, Medusa). These are beneficial buffs that would also benefit magicka and stamina play styles. Something unique about buff sets is that they give you more flexibility about what skills you slot.
6) Jewelry sets: No change recommended. Stamina, magicka, and tanks have the Agility, Willpower, and Endurance sets as good starting points when considering jewelry options.
If the specific areas above were addressed it would help achieve set balance, and support a broader array of play styles. I'm not saying we need 3 mirroring sets that satisfy stamina/magicka/tank players for every set in the game...there are niche sets for specific play styles and I think that is cool. But core sets that provide key values should be watched closely and balanced when possible. Monster Sets are unique and I don't think we need 3 flavors of each set to satisfy stamina/magicka/tanks.
--- end TL;DR ---
With Update 12 just around the corner and a whole slew of tantalizing sets wrapped in that package, I think now would be a great time to rectify some set imbalances between the various Light, Medium, and Heavy armor sets. I think this is especially true because there were set imbalances before Update 12, and based on the new sets here in the PTS the imbalance continues. A few examples follow to highlight my concerns (these examples are based on the Update 12 sets).
--- EXAMPLE 1 ---
The medium Draugr Hulk set provides just about 6000 stamina, an equivalent heavy set (Plague Doctor) provides about 8000 health, but we have no light armor set that provides 6000 magicka. One could argue the already existing light Necropotence set is the equivalent of the Draugr Hulk set, but I disagree, as the Necropotence set only provides similar magicka stats if you have pets active which is a limitation not imposed by the Draugr Hulk and Plague Doctor sets.
--- EXAMPLE 2 ---
The heavy Medusa set provides magicka set bonuses and a 5pc Minor Force buff (crit damage increased by 12%). Where is the medium armor equivalent that has stamina set bonuses with the same 5pc bonus? And the light armor equivalent that has solely magicka stats (i.e. no health bonus) and the same 5pc bonus?
--- EXAMPLE 3 ---
The heavy Rattlecage set provides magicka set bonuses and a 5pc Major Sorcery buff (20% spell damage). However there is no medium armor equivalent that provides stamina set bonuses and a 5pc Major Brutality buff (sorry, Dreugh King is a heavy set and doesn't count as a pure stamina set) . And there is no light armor equivalent that has solely magicka stats (i.e. no health bonus) and the 5pc Major Sorcery buff.
The imbalances between sets precedes Update 12. Consider that for a long time stamina players had the crafted Hundings Rage set, but the equivalent crafted Julianos set for magicka players wasn't introduced until around October 2015 with the Orsinium DLC. Another example...currently stamina players have the Night Mothers Gaze set to gain extra physical penetration, but there is no crafted equivalent for magicika users that provides spell penetration. Another example...the crafted Seducer set for magicka players provides good magicka recovery and magicka cost reduction (8%)...but there is no stamina equivalent to the Seducer set.
Some might counter that balancing the sets in this way would lead to OP combinations. For example, if a crafted stamina equivalent of the Seducer set was added (we'll call it StamSeducer for now)...then stamina players might run around with a 5pc StamSeducer and 5pc Vicious Ophidian set and thereby achieve 16% stamina cost reduction. I agree that some interesting and potentially powerful combinations would be created by striving to balance the key sets. However core set balance should be the starting point and the foundation first...then minor tweaks can be made if OP combinations emerge.
Some might counter that having core sets balanced would be "boring" or lead to situations in which everyone is using different flavors of the same set for magicka/stamina/tanks. I disagree. Consider just the existing stamina sets for a moment. In general we know that for stamina users Hundings Rage, Night Mothers's Gaze, and Agility set combos are common choices...but all stamina users don't run just those sets. From a PvP perspective, we also see combos like Viper and Velidreth (burst), Clever Alchemist and Molag Kena (burst), Vicious Ophidian and Marksman (sustain), Black Rose and Vicious Ophidian (sustained damage/defense), etc. My point is that even just for stamina players there are a lot of different approaches to take that can be customized through your CPs and your sets. More damage or more penetration? More burst or more sustain? Group play or solo play? Ganking or dueling? Ranged or melee? These choices lead to a variety of play styles, which can rely on different sets to maximize their potential. If one is to really argue against core sets being balanced...then take away Hundings but keep Julianos. Take away 1 of the Agility, Endurance, or Willpower sets. Change the Night Mother's Gaze set so that it's magicka based and only provides spell penetration. But that wouldn't feel right, correct? And that's my point...we already have some balance between the sets...just extend this balance to some more key sets.
Overall I think really striving to achieve set balance supports a broader range of play styles and possibilities in how we gear up for battle, whether in PvP or PvE. Actually we can see ZOS take this balanced approach in the Update 12 sets. For example, the light Spinner's Garments set provides spell penetration...and the equivalent medium Spriggan's Thorns set provides a similar amount of physical penetration. So I applaud ZOS's efforts to balance the sets, and I say take it a step further and balance some of the other sets I've mentioned in this discussion.
What do you ladies and gents think?
*EDIT to clarify a few points in bold*
*EDIT to add a TL;DR. Also want to say thanks to @potirondb16_ESO and @Mr_Nobody for their insightful feedback and helping me to further refine my stance.*
Edited by wildbear247 on September 20, 2016 5:33PM For certain core sets in the game ensure there are balanced sets for magicka, stamina, and tanks when feasible. Specific core areas to address:
1) High damage: No change recommended...these sets seem mostly balanced to me. Julianos balances Hundings, and there are tank sets that bring various damage options to the table.
2) Penetration: Balance is needed. Stamina users have access to Night Mothers Gaze, but there is no equivalent magicka option that can be crafted.
3) Resource management: Balance is needed. Magicka users have access to the Seducer set, but there is no equivalent stamina option that can be crafted.
4) Stat pools: Balance is needed. Update 12 will bring us the medium Draugr Hulk set that provides just about 6000 stamina, an equivalent heavy set (Plague Doctor) provides about 8000 health, but we have no light armor set that provides 6000 magicka.
5) Buff sets: Balance is needed. Tanks have access to sets that provide Major Brutality (Dreugh King Slayer), Major Sorcery (Update 12, Rattlecage set), and Minor Force (Update 12, Medusa). These are beneficial buffs that would also benefit magicka and stamina play styles. Something unique about buff sets is that they give you more flexibility about what skills you slot.
6) Jewelry sets: No change recommended. Stamina, magicka, and tanks have the Agility, Willpower, and Endurance sets as good starting points when considering jewelry options.
If the specific areas above were addressed it would help achieve set balance, and support a broader array of play styles. I'm not saying we need 3 mirroring sets that satisfy stamina/magicka/tank players for every set in the game...there are niche sets for specific play styles and I think that is cool. But core sets that provide key values should be watched closely and balanced when possible. Monster Sets are unique and I don't think we need 3 flavors of each set to satisfy stamina/magicka/tanks.
--- end TL;DR ---
With Update 12 just around the corner and a whole slew of tantalizing sets wrapped in that package, I think now would be a great time to rectify some set imbalances between the various Light, Medium, and Heavy armor sets. I think this is especially true because there were set imbalances before Update 12, and based on the new sets here in the PTS the imbalance continues. A few examples follow to highlight my concerns (these examples are based on the Update 12 sets).
--- EXAMPLE 1 ---
The medium Draugr Hulk set provides just about 6000 stamina, an equivalent heavy set (Plague Doctor) provides about 8000 health, but we have no light armor set that provides 6000 magicka. One could argue the already existing light Necropotence set is the equivalent of the Draugr Hulk set, but I disagree, as the Necropotence set only provides similar magicka stats if you have pets active which is a limitation not imposed by the Draugr Hulk and Plague Doctor sets.
--- EXAMPLE 2 ---
The heavy Medusa set provides magicka set bonuses and a 5pc Minor Force buff (crit damage increased by 12%). Where is the medium armor equivalent that has stamina set bonuses with the same 5pc bonus? And the light armor equivalent that has solely magicka stats (i.e. no health bonus) and the same 5pc bonus?
--- EXAMPLE 3 ---
The heavy Rattlecage set provides magicka set bonuses and a 5pc Major Sorcery buff (20% spell damage). However there is no medium armor equivalent that provides stamina set bonuses and a 5pc Major Brutality buff (sorry, Dreugh King is a heavy set and doesn't count as a pure stamina set) . And there is no light armor equivalent that has solely magicka stats (i.e. no health bonus) and the 5pc Major Sorcery buff.
The imbalances between sets precedes Update 12. Consider that for a long time stamina players had the crafted Hundings Rage set, but the equivalent crafted Julianos set for magicka players wasn't introduced until around October 2015 with the Orsinium DLC. Another example...currently stamina players have the Night Mothers Gaze set to gain extra physical penetration, but there is no crafted equivalent for magicika users that provides spell penetration. Another example...the crafted Seducer set for magicka players provides good magicka recovery and magicka cost reduction (8%)...but there is no stamina equivalent to the Seducer set.
Some might counter that balancing the sets in this way would lead to OP combinations. For example, if a crafted stamina equivalent of the Seducer set was added (we'll call it StamSeducer for now)...then stamina players might run around with a 5pc StamSeducer and 5pc Vicious Ophidian set and thereby achieve 16% stamina cost reduction. I agree that some interesting and potentially powerful combinations would be created by striving to balance the key sets. However core set balance should be the starting point and the foundation first...then minor tweaks can be made if OP combinations emerge.
Some might counter that having core sets balanced would be "boring" or lead to situations in which everyone is using different flavors of the same set for magicka/stamina/tanks. I disagree. Consider just the existing stamina sets for a moment. In general we know that for stamina users Hundings Rage, Night Mothers's Gaze, and Agility set combos are common choices...but all stamina users don't run just those sets. From a PvP perspective, we also see combos like Viper and Velidreth (burst), Clever Alchemist and Molag Kena (burst), Vicious Ophidian and Marksman (sustain), Black Rose and Vicious Ophidian (sustained damage/defense), etc. My point is that even just for stamina players there are a lot of different approaches to take that can be customized through your CPs and your sets. More damage or more penetration? More burst or more sustain? Group play or solo play? Ganking or dueling? Ranged or melee? These choices lead to a variety of play styles, which can rely on different sets to maximize their potential. If one is to really argue against core sets being balanced...then take away Hundings but keep Julianos. Take away 1 of the Agility, Endurance, or Willpower sets. Change the Night Mother's Gaze set so that it's magicka based and only provides spell penetration. But that wouldn't feel right, correct? And that's my point...we already have some balance between the sets...just extend this balance to some more key sets.
Overall I think really striving to achieve set balance supports a broader range of play styles and possibilities in how we gear up for battle, whether in PvP or PvE. Actually we can see ZOS take this balanced approach in the Update 12 sets. For example, the light Spinner's Garments set provides spell penetration...and the equivalent medium Spriggan's Thorns set provides a similar amount of physical penetration. So I applaud ZOS's efforts to balance the sets, and I say take it a step further and balance some of the other sets I've mentioned in this discussion.
What do you ladies and gents think?
*EDIT to clarify a few points in bold*
*EDIT to add a TL;DR. Also want to say thanks to @potirondb16_ESO and @Mr_Nobody for their insightful feedback and helping me to further refine my stance.*
PC NA
The Ironwood Clan (all DC): Karbal Ironwood (Stamblade, PvP); Galtan Ironwood (Magblade, crafter, PvE, some PvP)
MY #1 ESO REQUEST: An overhauled way in which ZOS gathers, assesses, responds to, and incorporates player feedback on the current and future state of the game.
The Ironwood Clan (all DC): Karbal Ironwood (Stamblade, PvP); Galtan Ironwood (Magblade, crafter, PvE, some PvP)
MY #1 ESO REQUEST: An overhauled way in which ZOS gathers, assesses, responds to, and incorporates player feedback on the current and future state of the game.
5
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alephthiago✭✭✭✭✭
Dreugh King Slayer and it provides Major Expedition on kills toowildbear247 wrote: »--- EXAMPLE 3 ---
The heavy Rattlecage set provides magicka set bonuses and a 5pc Major Sorcery buff (20% spell damage). However there is no medium armor equivalent that provides stamina set bonuses and a 5pc Major Brutality buff .
Walks-in-Shadowss AD Magblade
*** kitty AD Stamblade
Paarthurnax's Will AD Magicka DK
agnar cracked skull EP Magicka DK (veteran dragonstar arena bot)
Klogi Mugdul AD Stamina DK
Savre Selranni AD Magicka Sorc (being polished)
Avenar Lolhealing AD Magicka Templar (being polished)3 -
wildbear247✭✭✭I don't think creating mirror sets for each resource and calling it balanced would make people happy.
I concede that it wouldn't be a final solution, and that tweaks and adjustments would have to be made afterward (as is currently done for the smorgasbord of sets now) but I'm curious as to what alternatives you propose?
If stamina users can craft a Night Mother's Gaze set for additional spell penetration, then magicka users should have an equivalent crafted set at their disposal. If we introduce a Draugr Hulk set providing flat stamina pools, and a heavy armor equivalent providing flat health pools...then there should be a light armor magicka equivalent.
I'm speaking as someone who has mainly played a stamblade, although over the summer I took up the role of healer for the PvP group I run with and for running dungeons. My point is I'm not biased towards one type of player (stamina, magicka, tank). To have sets that provide a clear benefit to one style of player without sets that provide equivalent benefits to another style of player...that is an imbalance that should be addressed.Edited by wildbear247 on September 20, 2016 2:39PMPC NA
The Ironwood Clan (all DC): Karbal Ironwood (Stamblade, PvP); Galtan Ironwood (Magblade, crafter, PvE, some PvP)
MY #1 ESO REQUEST: An overhauled way in which ZOS gathers, assesses, responds to, and incorporates player feedback on the current and future state of the game.2 -
BlazingDynamo✭✭✭✭✭Why do ppl think there have to be identical sets for both magic and stamina?..
In that case give me a monster helm set that gives spell damage and shoots out magic balls that crit for 30k elemental damage.0 -
wildbear247✭✭✭alephthiago wrote: »
Dreugh King Slayer and it provides Major Expedition on kills toowildbear247 wrote: »--- EXAMPLE 3 ---
The heavy Rattlecage set provides magicka set bonuses and a 5pc Major Sorcery buff (20% spell damage). However there is no medium armor equivalent that provides stamina set bonuses and a 5pc Major Brutality buff .
Good point, and originally I was going to mention it...but Dreugh King is a heavy set. So we have 2 heavy armor sets, one which provides the Major Sorcery buff and one which provides the Major Brutality buff...but it's puzzling why ESO doesn't support a broader range of play styles by also having a light armor set that provides Major Sorcery and a medium armor set that provides Major Brutality.PC NA
The Ironwood Clan (all DC): Karbal Ironwood (Stamblade, PvP); Galtan Ironwood (Magblade, crafter, PvE, some PvP)
MY #1 ESO REQUEST: An overhauled way in which ZOS gathers, assesses, responds to, and incorporates player feedback on the current and future state of the game.2 -
wildbear247✭✭✭BlazingDynamo wrote: »Why do ppl think there have to be identical sets for both magic and stamina?..
In that case give me a monster helm set that gives spell damage and shoots out magic balls that crit for 30k elemental damage.
Yeah I made a point to specifically not mention monster sets as I think they are unique and have their own flavor.
As for identical sets (or sets of the same family that satisfy magicka, stamina, and tank players)...so are you saying that you'd be cool with an Agility jewelry set but no Willpower set? Or an Endurance set but no Agility set? Because that's basically what we have with our crafted and dropped sets now...some pretty glaring imbalances if one takes a step back and looks at the big picture.
And I'm not saying we need a family of tri-sets that satisfy stamina/magicka/tank players for every set in the game. But core sets that provide key values (large pools of health/stamina/magicka (Dragur Hulk, Plague Doctor); high weapon/spell damage (Hundings Rage, Julianos); excellent resource management (Seducer); penetration (Night Mother's Gaze)...these types of sets should be watched closely and balanced when possible.
And it's easy to achieve. Don't have an magicka equivalent to the crafted stamina based Night Mothers Gaze? Okay no problem...create another crafting station in the world and make it happen. This wouldn't be a game breaking change to ESO, but it would allow players who wanted it access to more spell penetration, and thereby support a broader range of play styles.PC NA
The Ironwood Clan (all DC): Karbal Ironwood (Stamblade, PvP); Galtan Ironwood (Magblade, crafter, PvE, some PvP)
MY #1 ESO REQUEST: An overhauled way in which ZOS gathers, assesses, responds to, and incorporates player feedback on the current and future state of the game.1 -
Ivan04✭✭✭✭Mirror sets would be very, very boring. I believe there should be more differences in the core of magicka and stamina skills. Hopefully spellcrafting will be the solution.1 -
wildbear247✭✭✭Mirror sets would be very, very boring. I believe there should be more differences in the core of magicka and stamina skills. Hopefully spellcrafting will be the solution.
And to this response I pose a question I asked earlier...so are you saying that you'd be cool with an Agility jewelry set but no Willpower set? Or an Endurance set but no Agility set? Because that's basically what we have with our crafted and dropped sets now...some pretty glaring imbalances in some key areas if one takes a step back and looks at the big picture.
And I'm not trying to sneakily push one play style or class above another. If (for example) a stam player creates a new magicka character he should have access to sets that provide similar level of penetration, or magicka pools, etc. I don't see how "boring" factors into addressing an imbalance like that.
But I do agree with you in one area...spellcrafting would be cool
PC NA
The Ironwood Clan (all DC): Karbal Ironwood (Stamblade, PvP); Galtan Ironwood (Magblade, crafter, PvE, some PvP)
MY #1 ESO REQUEST: An overhauled way in which ZOS gathers, assesses, responds to, and incorporates player feedback on the current and future state of the game.2 -
there are imbalances! it needs to be looked at! light needs major buffing!
making all sets the same is the worst possible idea though. we dont need 3 versions of every 5 piece bonus like you seem to suggest, that just terrible and lazy design.0 -
wildbear247✭✭✭dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »there are imbalances! it needs to be looked at! light needs major buffing!
making all sets the same is the worst possible idea though. we dont need 3 versions of every 5 piece bonus like you seem to suggest, that just terrible and lazy design.
Not 3 versions of every set...but for core sets like some of the ones mentioned in my original post then yes I do think we need balanced versions of them for magicka/stamina/tank when feasible. This is basically an extension of the same logic that was applied for the Agility/Endurance/Willpower jewelry sets...if it affects some core elements of gameplay then balance it for the 3 main play styles.
Actually we can see ZOS take this approach in the Update 12 sets. For example, the light Spinner's Garment's set provides spell penetration...and the equivalent medium Spriggan's Thorn's set provides a similar amount of physical penetration. So I applaud ZOS's efforts to balance the sets, and I say take it a step further and include some of the other steps in this balanced approach.PC NA
The Ironwood Clan (all DC): Karbal Ironwood (Stamblade, PvP); Galtan Ironwood (Magblade, crafter, PvE, some PvP)
MY #1 ESO REQUEST: An overhauled way in which ZOS gathers, assesses, responds to, and incorporates player feedback on the current and future state of the game.2 -
Ivan04✭✭✭✭wildbear247 wrote: »Mirror sets would be very, very boring. I believe there should be more differences in the core of magicka and stamina skills. Hopefully spellcrafting will be the solution.
And to this response I pose a question I asked earlier...so are you saying that you'd be cool with an Agility jewelry set but no Willpower set? Or an Endurance set but no Agility set? Because that's basically what we have with our crafted and dropped sets now...some pretty glaring imbalances in some key areas if one takes a step back and looks at the big picture.
And I'm not trying to sneakily push one play style or class above another. If (for example) a stam player creates a new magicka character he should have access to sets that provide similar level of penetration, or magicka pools, etc. I don't see how "boring" factors into addressing an imbalance like that.
But I do agree with you in one area...spellcrafting would be cool
It's basically already boring because players demand that all playstyles would play the same and have the same stats. I believe that different playstyles should have different advantages and disadvantages, else we could just go play Counter Strike.
2 -
wildbear247✭✭✭wildbear247 wrote: »Mirror sets would be very, very boring. I believe there should be more differences in the core of magicka and stamina skills. Hopefully spellcrafting will be the solution.
And to this response I pose a question I asked earlier...so are you saying that you'd be cool with an Agility jewelry set but no Willpower set? Or an Endurance set but no Agility set? Because that's basically what we have with our crafted and dropped sets now...some pretty glaring imbalances in some key areas if one takes a step back and looks at the big picture.
And I'm not trying to sneakily push one play style or class above another. If (for example) a stam player creates a new magicka character he should have access to sets that provide similar level of penetration, or magicka pools, etc. I don't see how "boring" factors into addressing an imbalance like that.
But I do agree with you in one area...spellcrafting would be cool
It's basically already boring because players demand that all playstyles would play the same and have the same stats. I believe that different playstyles should have different advantages and disadvantages, else we could just go play Counter Strike.
You think ESO is boring eh? Man I've been having a blast since reaching end game. After dabbling in PvE and PvP, I've mostly gravitated to PvP as my end game playground and I'm loving it. Got a good group of guild mates to run with, but I'm also cool just pugging it or doing some ganking and dueling on my stamblade. I know some sets and play styles can become FOTM (Black Rose and stam sorcs seem to be ever so popular right now)...but those FOTM builds don't completely eclipse other skill/set combos, especially when factoring in player skill.
I'm pretty much constantly thinking and doing different skill and set combinations on my stamblade. And over the summer I brought my crafter outta retirement, went skyshard/skill point hunting, and now have a decent NB healer that I've been having fun with (I use him to quickly find dungeon groups, and he's turned into a decent PvP healer too). Next I'm gonna create a templar healer (probably during the Christmas holidays), and turn my current NB healer into a hybrid tank/healer that will mostly likely run in full heavy armor.
4 different classes, with at least 3 ways to play them (damage dealer, healer, tank)...makes for 12 very intriguing play styles with I think some grey area in between for players to explore more styles. So on my stamblade I have a kit that I use for group play (more sustain, defense, and AOE), a kit that I use for ganking (all damage and burst), a kit that I use for dueling (a balance between sustain, defense, and offense)...so even a damage dealer has room to customize how he engages the enemy.
Anyway, just sharing my thoughts. I do hope they continue adding features like spellcrafting to add more variety.Edited by wildbear247 on September 19, 2016 9:29PMPC NA
The Ironwood Clan (all DC): Karbal Ironwood (Stamblade, PvP); Galtan Ironwood (Magblade, crafter, PvE, some PvP)
MY #1 ESO REQUEST: An overhauled way in which ZOS gathers, assesses, responds to, and incorporates player feedback on the current and future state of the game.1 -
psychotic13✭✭✭✭✭
✭If one side mirrored the other then what would be the point in having stamina and magicka be different. That creates no build diversity at all.1 -
Cronopoly✭✭✭✭✭BurritoESO wrote: »Nerf black rose 2016
Do you think Black Rose has been more responsible for people getting kills in PVP moreso than all medium armors over the last 3 months??
I don't think so. The core of this is Redguard passives + Heavy Armor passives and everyone and their mother changing races to Redguard in a stamina world. Black Rose is just icing on the cake...
On Non Redguards, Black Rose seems just a decent normal set that does what it's supposed to.2 -
wildbear247✭✭✭psychotic13 wrote: »If one side mirrored the other then what would be the point in having stamina and magicka be different. That creates no build diversity at all.
I disagree. Consider just the existing stamina sets for a moment (we'll leave Update 12 sets out of the discussion for now). In general we know that for stamina users Hundings Rage, Night Mothers's Gaze, and Agility set combos are common choices...but all stamina users don't run just those sets. From a PvP perspective, we also see combos like Viper and Velidreth (burst), Clever Alchemist and Molag Kena (burst), Vicious Ophidian and Marksman (sustain), Black Rose and Vicious Ophidian (sustained damage/defense), etc. My point is that even just for stamina players there are a lot of different approaches to take that can be customized through your CPs and your sets. More damage or more penetration? More burst or more sustain? Group play or solo play? Ganking or dueling? Ranged or melee? These choices lead to a variety of play styles that use different sets to maximize their potential. This encompasses the 3 primary play styles: magicka, stamina, and tank.
If one is to really argue against core sets being balanced...then take away Hundings but keep Julianos. Take away 1 of the Agility, Endurance, or Willpower sets. Change the Night Mother's Gaze set so that it's magicka based and only provides spell penetration. But that wouldn't feel right, correct? And that's my point...we already have some balance between the sets...just extend this balance to some more key sets.Edited by wildbear247 on September 20, 2016 2:48PMPC NA
The Ironwood Clan (all DC): Karbal Ironwood (Stamblade, PvP); Galtan Ironwood (Magblade, crafter, PvE, some PvP)
MY #1 ESO REQUEST: An overhauled way in which ZOS gathers, assesses, responds to, and incorporates player feedback on the current and future state of the game.1 -
potirondb16_ESO✭✭✭wildbear247 wrote: »Not 3 versions of every set...but for core sets like some of the ones mentioned in my original post then yes I do think we need balanced versions of them for magicka/stamina/tank when feasible. This is basically an extension of the same logic that was applied for the Agility/Endurance/Willpower jewelry sets...if it affects some core elements of gameplay then balance it for the 3 main play styles.
Agility/Willpower/Endurance have been for almost a year the only jewellery v16 available Inside the game, don't bring those up ! Not the same situation at all !
0 -
potirondb16_ESO✭✭✭Set should feel unique, and have that flavor that favorise your own playstyle and not feel as much as a reproduction of each other as you suggest.
For example, Night Mother Gaze on a Magicka Build would feel wierd at a certain point :
Basic Penetration: 100
Light Armor Penetratin : 4914
Sharpened Staff: 5180
Destro Staff Bonus: 10%
Debuff : 5280 (approx)
Total : 15474 + 10% (not sure if it's penetration or armor debuff)
Mobs total armor : 18 300
Calculate it as you want : Magicka can reach nearly ... 17k of Spell penetration ... Add a Crusher enchant to that and you reach total mobs penetration. Adds Alkosh and you reach 20k which no mobs have... Bring a set equivalent to NMG into the game, no magicka user will ever use sharpened and they will all end-up with precise bonus
While on the Other Hand Stamina....
Basic Penetration : 100
Armor bonus : 0
Sharpened: 5180
Mace Debuff (if use): 20%
Debuff: 5280 (Approx)
I don't say that some set shouldn't be created in order to adress that, because it is true, stamina will have two penetration set next patch, COA and NMG, and maybe magika should get Something too, but a replica of the set.. would actually be bad, maybe they should be the only one getting the crit set ?
1 -
wildbear247✭✭✭potirondb16_ESO wrote: »wildbear247 wrote: »Not 3 versions of every set...but for core sets like some of the ones mentioned in my original post then yes I do think we need balanced versions of them for magicka/stamina/tank when feasible. This is basically an extension of the same logic that was applied for the Agility/Endurance/Willpower jewelry sets...if it affects some core elements of gameplay then balance it for the 3 main play styles.
Agility/Willpower/Endurance have been for almost a year the only jewellery v16 available Inside the game, don't bring those up ! Not the same situation at all !
The principle behind these sets are the same...3 sets each geared towards either magicka, stamina, or tank...and balance has therefore been achieved. IMHO this is an excellent example to highlight because it shows how ZOS has balanced sets in the past. The fact that they are 3pc sets instead of 5pc doesn't exclude them from this discussion. Other examples of balanced sets are worth noting as well: Hundings (stam) & Julianos (mag), Spriggan's Thorns (stam) & Spinner's Garments (mag), etc.
What's interesting is that even though they are really good and balanced sets, it doesn't mean everybody runs just those sets..there is still a lot of variety in builds when it comes to how a player chooses to enter battle with their stamina/magicka/tank character.PC NA
The Ironwood Clan (all DC): Karbal Ironwood (Stamblade, PvP); Galtan Ironwood (Magblade, crafter, PvE, some PvP)
MY #1 ESO REQUEST: An overhauled way in which ZOS gathers, assesses, responds to, and incorporates player feedback on the current and future state of the game.0 -
potirondb16_ESO✭✭✭wildbear247 wrote: »potirondb16_ESO wrote: »wildbear247 wrote: »Not 3 versions of every set...but for core sets like some of the ones mentioned in my original post then yes I do think we need balanced versions of them for magicka/stamina/tank when feasible. This is basically an extension of the same logic that was applied for the Agility/Endurance/Willpower jewelry sets...if it affects some core elements of gameplay then balance it for the 3 main play styles.
Agility/Willpower/Endurance have been for almost a year the only jewellery v16 available Inside the game, don't bring those up ! Not the same situation at all !
The principle behind these sets are the same...3 sets each geared towards either magicka, stamina, or tank...and balance has therefore been achieved. IMHO this is an excellent example to highlight because it shows how ZOS has balanced sets in the past. The fact that they are 3pc sets instead of 5pc doesn't exclude them from this discussion. Other examples of balanced sets are worth noting as well: Hundings (stam) & Julianos (mag), Spriggan's Thorns (stam) & Spinner's Garments (mag), etc.
What's interesting is that even though they are really good and balanced sets, it doesn't mean everybody runs just those sets..there is still a lot of variety in builds when it comes to how a player chooses to enter battle with their stamina/magicka/tank character.
I understand what you mean, I'm not sure about Spriggan and Spinner as I never really heard of those... but the fact that those jewel were the only set available for a long time at v16 create a wierd argument because in those day we were really lacking any jewellery set and those felt as a quick fix, not really a meta oriented.
Julianos and Hunding also fall into that categorie to me since Hunding was for a while always use by most dps of the game, and julianos came and also balance that set. But notice what they did with Vicious Ophidian and Infaillible Aether which to me is a really interesting option.
Stamina DPS lacked opportunity to sustain during long fight because repentance was not always available and shard wasn't that easy to get, so in order to adress that they created a set which was highly focus on that aspect and which also end-up working. Meanwhile Magicka DPS were starting to be uneffective during trial and they suddently receive that amazing utility set in order to create more interest + they also got there weapon bonus on the 4pc making this set really interesting option if you don't have to run the debuff...
That's actually, IMHO how you balance a set vs. playstyle. You notice what's wrong/good with a particular set up and you adapt it in order to push playstyle further. If you copycat set, except the basic one (Julianos/Hunding, Agility/End/Will) you create set which are totally useless or unbalance.
Example : Create a Copycat version of Set of the Sun
Set of the sun is a rather unique set, only really interesting on a Magicka DK since they are the only DPS class which are only relying on Fire for their DPS. That choice was interesting and well documented back then since magicka DK didn't had the boost of DPS required to be as bursty and as you look at the bonus you notice it is mostly a pvp set.
Now with the copycat version it's a bonus for all Stamina Class who are using WB/RS/Hurricane/Biting jabs/ etc... does it ring a bell about any player you may know ? that's almost all of them. The once almost nieche set is now an overall plague. That's why magicka set and stamina set need to be treate as different. Not to avoid mistake, but to create diversity and uniqueness.2 -
wildbear247✭✭✭potirondb16_ESO wrote: »Set should feel unique, and have that flavor that favorise your own playstyle and not feel as much as a reproduction of each other as you suggest.
For example, Night Mother Gaze on a Magicka Build would feel wierd at a certain point :
Basic Penetration: 100
Light Armor Penetratin : 4914
Sharpened Staff: 5180
Destro Staff Bonus: 10%
Debuff : 5280 (approx)
Total : 15474 + 10% (not sure if it's penetration or armor debuff)
Mobs total armor : 18 300
Calculate it as you want : Magicka can reach nearly ... 17k of Spell penetration ... Add a Crusher enchant to that and you reach total mobs penetration. Adds Alkosh and you reach 20k which no mobs have... Bring a set equivalent to NMG into the game, no magicka user will ever use sharpened and they will all end-up with precise bonus
While on the Other Hand Stamina....
Basic Penetration : 100
Armor bonus : 0
Sharpened: 5180
Mace Debuff (if use): 20%
Debuff: 5280 (Approx)
I don't say that some set shouldn't be created in order to adress that, because it is true, stamina will have two penetration set next patch, COA and NMG, and maybe magika should get Something too, but a replica of the set.. would actually be bad, maybe they should be the only one getting the crit set ?
Excellent summary of the penetration a magicka user has access to, and a thoughtful response. Yes, I concur that a magicka user has access to a greater amount of flat penetration than a stamina user has due to light armor passive, although this is balanced out to some degree via maces being able to shred 20% of armor (vs destro staff 10%) and the fact that a stamina player has access to a greater amount of weapon damage through their medium armor passive.
Regarding your last post, again excellent insight into the history of the sets and what triggered certain sets to be added or changed. I do agree that certain sets will fulfill a niche role and there doesn't have to be magicka, stamina, and tank versions of them. However for core sets we should strive for balance (my original post provides some initial thoughts on what core sets are).
For example, suppose a magicka DPS dude receives a precise Inferno staff from vMA. Maybe he has just run vMA like 30 times and when he gets the precise Inferno staff he's like "You know what...I'll just use this precise inferno staff with a (magicka) Night Mother's Gaze set to make up for it not being sharpened." As a stamina user, I have that option if I receive a precise vMA dagger due to Night Mother's Gaze...currently magicka users don't have that flexibility because there is no magicka equivalent to Night Mother's Gaze. Update 12 brings spell penetration to the table with the Spinner's Garments set...but then stamina users have access to 2 physical penetration sets (3 if you include the Kra'gh monster set..but I'm leaving monster sets out of this discussion).
Edited by wildbear247 on September 20, 2016 2:44PMPC NA
The Ironwood Clan (all DC): Karbal Ironwood (Stamblade, PvP); Galtan Ironwood (Magblade, crafter, PvE, some PvP)
MY #1 ESO REQUEST: An overhauled way in which ZOS gathers, assesses, responds to, and incorporates player feedback on the current and future state of the game.0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Balance has nothing to do with the sets (except some FotM, like velidreth, eternal hunt or Black rose), it has to do with the tools each specialty has to deal with incoming dmg.
Let's see
Stam has dodge roll, block, shuffle, and heals like vigor (which can be used with any weapon) and rally. Besides that, they have a CP star (120 pts) which reduce the cost of any stam skill (80%) after breaking CC (unchained). Yup, 120 pts in the most commonly used red constelation (the lady).
Magicka has heals (through weapon line, which forces you to use a resto staff, unless you are a temp since other classes heals are not reliable), shields... then we have class specific tools like flappy wings, cloak, strike (which can be used by stam too). The magicka based 120 star in the blue constelation (apprentice) has a 20% to open an arcane well after killing an enemy that restores 3300 magicka
What happens with the sets is that they increase that difference, hence Eternal Hunt works on dodge roll (a defensive movement that suddenly turns into an offensive one). Black rose doubles the healing received and the magicka and stamina return, that paired with the redguard passive makes it pretty stong.
Magicka sets have not that option, or if they have it the bonus is weak in PvP, for example, Combat physician autocast a shield on crit healings, but the heal and the shield are nerfed in a 50% on Cyrodiil and it can't be paired with Trinimac's valor (though velidreth, eternal hunt, and morag tong can all be combined). Vicecannon procs on stealth attacks and do strong dmg, while galerion's procs after 6 succesful light or heavy attacks (in dodgeland).
Considering that, mirroring sets is not going a make any change to the playing style because the tools each specialty has will still be the same.Edited by Xvorg on September 20, 2016 2:28AMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Identical sets sound like a boring game.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...1 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yeah sets should be uniqe but why almost always magica has worse sets? Like no burst monster sets, no black rose for magica, no crafted sets that are so uniqe and useful like eternal hunt etc. etc. And with U12 difference gets even biger. Yeah, sets should be uniqe but also balanced and promote diversity in any type of gameplay. Right now magica is all about building arround max stats. Where are our utility sets? We have what? Skoria? No comment. Malubeth? This set is broken as frack. Specters eye? Rather not as shuffle works 2x as better. Not to mention sets like Oblivions foe...
Off top a bit: Current Cyrodiil is all about stamina (80%?), beamplars (10%?), magsorcs (5%) and bomblades (5%). Its not the stamina skills who are OP, as I can duel any stamina toon that doesnt use velidreth/viper/widowmaker sets and at least stay competetive. I know I whine a bit but unfortunetly there is some imbalance between stam/mag because when I fight against any magica toon Im much more relaxed (less presure on me, easier to spam skills on mag toons) while fighting against stam players is like swiming with rocks in your pockets. Dont know is it because of sets or something else but needs to be looked at.Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge0 -
Mr_Nobody✭✭✭✭✭wildbear247 wrote: »potirondb16_ESO wrote: »Set should feel unique, and have that flavor that favorise your own playstyle and not feel as much as a reproduction of each other as you suggest.
For example, Night Mother Gaze on a Magicka Build would feel wierd at a certain point :
Basic Penetration: 100
Light Armor Penetratin : 4914
Sharpened Staff: 5180
Destro Staff Bonus: 10%
Debuff : 5280 (approx)
Total : 15474 + 10% (not sure if it's penetration or armor debuff)
Mobs total armor : 18 300
Calculate it as you want : Magicka can reach nearly ... 17k of Spell penetration ... Add a Crusher enchant to that and you reach total mobs penetration. Adds Alkosh and you reach 20k which no mobs have... Bring a set equivalent to NMG into the game, no magicka user will ever use sharpened and they will all end-up with precise bonus
While on the Other Hand Stamina....
Basic Penetration : 100
Armor bonus : 0
Sharpened: 5180
Mace Debuff (if use): 20%
Debuff: 5280 (Approx)
I don't say that some set shouldn't be created in order to adress that, because it is true, stamina will have two penetration set next patch, COA and NMG, and maybe magika should get Something too, but a replica of the set.. would actually be bad, maybe they should be the only one getting the crit set ?
Excellent summary of the penetration magicka users can obtain.potirondb16_ESO wrote: »Set should feel unique, and have that flavor that favorise your own playstyle and not feel as much as a reproduction of each other as you suggest.
For example, Night Mother Gaze on a Magicka Build would feel wierd at a certain point :
Basic Penetration: 100
Light Armor Penetratin : 4914
Sharpened Staff: 5180
Destro Staff Bonus: 10%
Debuff : 5280 (approx)
Total : 15474 + 10% (not sure if it's penetration or armor debuff)
Mobs total armor : 18 300
Calculate it as you want : Magicka can reach nearly ... 17k of Spell penetration ... Add a Crusher enchant to that and you reach total mobs penetration. Adds Alkosh and you reach 20k which no mobs have... Bring a set equivalent to NMG into the game, no magicka user will ever use sharpened and they will all end-up with precise bonus
While on the Other Hand Stamina....
Basic Penetration : 100
Armor bonus : 0
Sharpened: 5180
Mace Debuff (if use): 20%
Debuff: 5280 (Approx)
I don't say that some set shouldn't be created in order to adress that, because it is true, stamina will have two penetration set next patch, COA and NMG, and maybe magika should get Something too, but a replica of the set.. would actually be bad, maybe they should be the only one getting the crit set ?
Excellent summary of the penetration a magicka user has access to, and a thoughtful response. Yes, I concur that a magicka user has access to a greater amount of flat penetration than a stamina user has due to light armor passive, although this is balanced out to some degree via maces being able to shred 20% of armor (vs destro staff 10%) and the fact that a stamina player has access to a greater amount of weapon damage through their medium armor passive.
Regarding your last post, again excellent insight into the history of the sets and what triggered certain sets to be added or changed. I do agree that certain sets will fulfill a niche role and there doesn't have to be magicka, stamina, and tank versions of them. However for core sets we should strive for balance (my original post provides some initial thoughts on what core sets are).
For example, suppose a magicka DPS dude receives a precise Inferno staff from vMA. Maybe he has just run vMA like 30 times and when he gets the precise Inferno staff he's like "You know what...I'll just use this precise inferno staff with a (magicka) Night Mother's Gaze set to make up for it not being sharpened." As a stamina user, I have that option if I receive a precise vMA dagger due to Night Mother's Gaze...currently magicka users don't have that flexibility because there is no magicka equivalent to Night Mother's Gaze. Update 12 brings spell penetration to the table with the Spinner's Garments set...but then stamina users have access to 2 physical penetration sets (3 if you include the Kra'gh monster set..but I'm leaving monster sets out of this discussion).
Except the fact that maces ignore 20% of armor just by being maces. Destro passive requires destro spells to be used.
Elder Stamina Online.1 -
acw37162✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think we should balance charchter create.
No matter what option race, sex, body style, or hairstyle you pick. When your finished everyone looks the same.0
