Activity Finder, low level characters, and punishments for leaving group

Diminish

Please stop tossing low level (non-CP) characters into harder vet dungeons via activity finder. Nothing better than getting grouped with a freshly made scaled character with no CP, decent gear, or weapons for vet ICP, WGT, CoA, RoM, etc. Doesn't matter if they are a healer, a tank, or DPS. I by no means have any problems helping out with dungeons, but with the current state of being punished for leaving groups or groups disbanding... this is a damn joke.

I am in no way bashing new characters, Activity Finder on the other hand is another story. Who thought it was a good idea to toss a low level into vICP, and then punish people for leaving group because they didn't want to waste 12 hours in a dungeon knowing damn well that it would not get completed?

... btw, One Tamriel is going to be a cluster **** which will probably make me un-sub, and stop playing again; I can already see it. Perhaps some of you PC players on the PTS can confirm or deny this. To me it just sounds like a step in the wrong direction.

AzraelKrieg

Non-CP characters can't do vet dungeons though. Sounds like they are being added to a normal run for those but if the character isn't level 50 yet, they can't do vet pledges.

redspecter23

I was under the impression that characters below level 50 would not be placed in vet dungeon groups. However, you still have a solid point. A brand new level 10 character will struggle in many dungeons. I'd say it's mostly due to his lack of experience and access to gear. A very experienced player on a level 10 toon may very well carry the rest of the group. As well someone with 531 cp may be completely clueless. I think there was an intention to group players of similar cp totals at some point but that may be what led to endless queue times. I'm not sure there's any perfect answer that doesn't also overly complicate things. Pack the group with friends and guildmates first if you can so you limit the effect of one inexperienced member added through group finder.

LadyNalcarya

Well, I think it would be nice if for normal dungeons you could make a group with non-vets only and everyone would be scaled to lvl 50 (0 cps) or to highest lvl in group.

WhiteMage

Well it certainly stinks when low level/low CP players get put in a random DLC dungeon not knowing what they're in for. I can't remember the last time one of those went well...

But if you're in a random normal with low levels, keep in mind that any of them could be at max CP. They are out there.

Diminish

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Non-CP characters can't do vet dungeons though. Sounds like they are being added to a normal run for those but if the character isn't level 50 yet, they can't do vet pledges.

Yeah, sorry that was an error on my part. I am just getting sick of the multitude of issues with Activity Finder as of late. It was a low CP level character last night for vICP; the outcome was no different. My gripe extends to normal dungeons though where the problem is more prevalent. Sure a couple high CP characters can easily carry others through a normal dungeon, but as a glass cannon, min/maxed DPS, even those can be difficult when you rely on your healer... who is a very low level or rely on your tank to control some of the ads and the bosses. All in all, it just gets frustrating, groups fall apart, and you get punished for it. It really needs reworked.

I have recorded gameplay of joining groups via group finder just to see the group get disbanded within seconds. It's ridiculous and leads to Activity Finder cool downs. I have had this happen back to back, and result in like a 47 min cool down or something outrageous.

AzraelKrieg

If the group is disbanding in seconds of joining it's actually a bug that ZOS have yet to fix cause they have yet to find the cause of it. But I get where you're coming from about low level and low CP players in vets. I'm a pretty patient person as anyone in my guild can attest to since I did a dungeon night with someone who doesn't do dungeons often and we managed to get a clear on our respective first runs in vet WGT but I have kicked a player from the group in the past because they were inexperienced and weren't performing their role correctly.

Diminish

redspecter23 wrote: »

... Pack the group with friends and guildmates first if you can so you limit the effect of one inexperienced member added through group finder.

Why have an Activity Finder then. This really is not a solution to a problem that I am sure many face. I am lucky enough to have highly populated and active guilds, but I still like to just queue up for a specific dungeon, run around doing dailies/writs/etc. while I wait for a group, and then jump into the dungeon when the time comes. When the group finder does not intelligently match you with others, what I explained above happens more times than not. Are there ways around it? Sure! Does that mean it is not broken? Nope!

Egonieser

Diminish wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Non-CP characters can't do vet dungeons though. Sounds like they are being added to a normal run for those but if the character isn't level 50 yet, they can't do vet pledges.

Yeah, sorry that was an error on my part. I am just getting sick of the multitude of issues with Activity Finder as of late. It was a low CP level character last night for vICP; the outcome was no different. My gripe extends to normal dungeons though where the problem is more prevalent. Sure a couple high CP characters can easily carry others through a normal dungeon, but as a glass cannon, min/maxed DPS, even those can be difficult when you rely on your healer... who is a very low level or rely on your tank to control some of the ads and the bosses. All in all, it just gets frustrating, groups fall apart, and you get punished for it. It really needs reworked.

I have recorded gameplay of joining groups via group finder just to see the group get disbanded within seconds. It's ridiculous and leads to Activity Finder cool downs. I have had this happen back to back, and result in like a 47 min cool down or something outrageous.

I know how you feel. Did a random dungeon earlier today via groupfinder, on my templar. I had to heal, tank, DPS pretty much on my own. Not that it bothered me much, I've mostly soloed most of the normal dungeons anyway, but my biggest problem was that the pugs kept kiting the mobs all over the place, making it hard for me to heal them and AoE the mobs as they kept splitting the groups apart. One person reset a boss twice, despite me explaining it in chat about 4 times, until I lost my patience and started typing in caps with enough exclamation marks, then it finally sunk in.

redspecter23

Diminish wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

... Pack the group with friends and guildmates first if you can so you limit the effect of one inexperienced member added through group finder.

Why have an Activity Finder then. This really is not a solution to a problem that I am sure many face. I am lucky enough to have highly populated and active guilds, but I still like to just queue up for a specific dungeon, run around doing dailies/writs/etc. while I wait for a group, and then jump into the dungeon when the time comes. When the group finder does not intelligently match you with others, what I explained above happens more times than not. Are there ways around it? Sure! Does that mean it is not broken? Nope!

My point is, even if you add a level filter, you won't be free of bad players. Plenty of skill level ranges at all level ranges. Perhaps it's worth exploring adding additional filters. I've seen LFG systems in other games that are basically ad pages listing your group members and what you're looking to do and other players can talk to the group lead about joining without being auto invited. It's just a more robust system that builds upon zone ads looking for groups.

disintegr8

This is an issue with the group finder, it needs to be broken down further than it is for both vet and non vet. Even a new level 23 doing normal WGT or ICP is just asking for trouble. Group finder should be split up into 4 levels - normal split at about level 30 or 40 and vet split somewhere like 200 or 300 CP.

So a level 21 using group finder will be put in somewhere less difficult like Spindleglutch or Elden Hollow instead of White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison but a level 45 would get any normal dungeon. A level 50 with 22 CP would get an easier vet dungeon, like vet Spindleglutch or Vet Wayrest Sewers but a 500 CP could get any vet dungeon.

This needs to be something that still allows people to get their random daily bonuses, so it would have to be a forced restriction to prevent higher level people selecting the easier content to make the bonuses a cake walk. If you give people a choice, some lower level people would also still choose to run the harder dungeons.

I know there would be arguments about "how do we learn the harder ones if we can't get into them', or 'If I want to play the hard dungeons I should be allowed to'. People can still do that outside of group finder and with their friends or guilds but while all levels are pooled together in the same group finder tool, ZOS need to better manage matching players to content that is to their level.

redspecter23

Maybe something simple.

Join queue (groups form from all players that join using this filter)

Join vet only queue (will only pull players into group that are veteran level even if you choose a non vet dungeon)

Join max cp only queue (will only pull players who are max cp even if you choose a non vet dungeon)

As you'd be adding 2 additional filters to the system, some queue times may increase but it's possible that your overall wait times may go down if many players flock to one of the 2 new filters. This may come with longer wait times with the first filter which might be the only reason I can see ZoS not hopping on board with the system.

Mojmir

Glad I don't pug,I refuse to use the finder at all.

RomansXXI

I have been playing since pc beta and have many alts. I enjoy dungeons and start using the activity finder at lvl 20 and have been able to outlast many higher level people simply through experience. However behind my level 20 is a max cp cap. I would assume the cp cap determines wether or not a lvl 20 will be grouped with other lvl 20s or with a higher cp.

I personally feel characters under lvl 15 should be unable to use the dungeon finder and that the timer needs to be removed completely. The timer applies if you're kicked from group, left the group, group has been disbanded by another player...etc. It can get downright annoying, I'd be more than happy to leave a higher cp group and join one of a similar level if there wasn't the 15 minute penalty.

code65536

There is a lot of level/CP discrimination in this game.

And it's stupid because level doesn't mean much. I've seen capped-CP players who haven't the faintest clue what they're doing. And I've seen low-CP players who can easily outperform someone with many more CP.

Example 1: When I was leveling my stamsorc, I replied to someone in zone who was LF1M dps for a random normal dungeon. I joined the group and was immediately kicked because this was a sub-50 character that I was leveling. Never mind that I'm well above the CP cap, that I almost certainly have vastly more group PvE experience than any of them, or that my character was properly geared. They didn't even give me a chance before kicking me.

Example 2: I recently started playing on my alt account. So, starting out with zero CP. And one of the things that I wanted to try was doing each day's pledges with PUGs. If I advertise my CP in zone chat, nobody invites me. Even with 3 different groups continually asking in zone chat for tanks and my character has tank gear, none of them would take me--they'd rather keep searching than take a lowbie. Even when I told them that I'm actually an experienced player. And once when I didn't disclose my CP, once invited, the group kicked me. (Eventually, I was picked up by a guildie who recognized that it was me on an alt account, and we proceeded to do a no-death speedrun of vCoA and got lots of Undaunted points in the process.)

Example 3: There was one Group Finder PUG pledge where I was in the healer role, on my alt account. My alt account had around 100 CP at this point. One DPS had around 200, the other DPS had between 300 and 400. And according to Combat Metrics, I did 60-80% of the DPS in most of the pulls. (Speaking of Group Finder, the nice thing about Group Finder is that I've never been kicked for being too low-level. But I have had plenty of high-level characters instantly drop group the second they see that there are too many lowbies in the group. It happens more often than not.)

The moral of the story is, levels and CP don't mean much. A level 30 player might be a newbie on their very first character. Or it might be a CP-capped vet leveling an alt character. It's really stupid that the game doesn't display the CP for sub-50 characters, even though those characters have access to and can spend those CPs. And for level 50 players, CP doesn't mean that much either. You can have a high-CP player with little or no group PvE experience who go around light-attacking with a bow. And you could have a low-CP player who spent a lot of time in dungeons getting experience during the 1-50 phase or who had done their homework by watching videos and reading guides or, in my case, someone who was on a second account. Personally, I never kick lowbies or abandon group when I PUG. If the lowbie is good, then that's great. If the lowbie is bad, then I'll carry them through--I knew the risks of PUGing, and I wouldn't PUG unless I was prepared to do something like that.

All that having been said, there are varying levels of dungeon difficulty. Not all Normal dungeons are created equal. And not all Veteran dungeons are created equal. I think if people are doing the Random dungeon, the game should probably take into account their Undaunted level, and place them in starter dungeons like Spindleclutch if they have a very low Undaunted level. They can still manually queue for a "hard" dungeon, but for the Random, it's really not a good idea to place someone in nICP unless they have some amount of experience, and their Undaunted level is a relatively good (though imperfect) approximation dungeon experience (my alt account is currently around CP140, but I've already gotten Undaunted 8).

disintegr8

RomansXXI wrote: »

I have been playing since pc beta and have many alts. I enjoy dungeons and start using the activity finder at lvl 20 and have been able to outlast many higher level people simply through experience. However behind my level 20 is a max cp cap. I would assume the cp cap determines wether or not a lvl 20 will be grouped with other lvl 20s or with a higher cp.

Yes, I have run plenty of PUG's where level 20 something players have loads of experience and CP and it is easy to spot it once you get going.

I don't think my concept of restricting non veteran dungeon access through the group finder based solely on character level would really have a negative impact on experienced players leveling new characters. This is because they are usually only 'passing through' those levels and are usually leveling fairly quickly rather than grafting their way through them.

What I read here and what I have experienced tells me that while there are some who want to savour the journey when leveling new characters, most experienced players think it dull and do it as quickly as possible.

Diminish

redspecter23 wrote: »

Diminish wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

... Pack the group with friends and guildmates first if you can so you limit the effect of one inexperienced member added through group finder.

Why have an Activity Finder then. This really is not a solution to a problem that I am sure many face. I am lucky enough to have highly populated and active guilds, but I still like to just queue up for a specific dungeon, run around doing dailies/writs/etc. while I wait for a group, and then jump into the dungeon when the time comes. When the group finder does not intelligently match you with others, what I explained above happens more times than not. Are there ways around it? Sure! Does that mean it is not broken? Nope!

My point is, even if you add a level filter, you won't be free of bad players. Plenty of skill level ranges at all level ranges. Perhaps it's worth exploring adding additional filters. I've seen LFG systems in other games that are basically ad pages listing your group members and what you're looking to do and other players can talk to the group lead about joining without being auto invited. It's just a more robust system that builds upon zone ads looking for groups.

I know what you mean, and have witnessed first hand how "good" some CP531 characters are in trials (sarcasm). The thing is, at least with a higher CP character you can coach them, chances are they will have more skills unlocked, and simply didn't know that skill x was a better choice than skill y that they were currently using. In the end, I would rather have a bad CP250 character on my team rather than a bad CP10 character. I doesn't come down to skill, I am VERY patient. I am in no hurry to complete a dungeon when I know the group has the overall potential to do so. However, when the group doesn't, and it gets disbanded I do NOT want to be punished. They need smarter Activity Finder filters.